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  1. #81
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    It took me 63 years to really understand that a person's personal experiences are really the only sacred truths in life.
    That's very sad in some ways. I always thought it were to be true without testing - until I found confirmation of every single personal trial I've been through in the scripture.

    IOW, all I had to do was to learn to read properly instead of pissing on the fence all my life and finding out shit for myself others knew for thousands of years.

  2. #82
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I cannot invest more time in wishing and hoping.
    I have always found it to be a waste of time in any case. I just didn't follow my own advice - until I found God. Only God's patience is everlasting. So is his love for his creatures.

  3. #83
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by finix View Post
    That's very sad in some ways. I always thought it were to be true without testing - until I found confirmation of every single personal trial I've been through in the scripture.

    IOW, all I had to do was to learn to read properly instead of pissing on the fence all my life and finding out shiz for myself others knew for thousands of years.
    And it seems a much sadder story when someone throws out their gift of discernment for an emotionally charged belief, which only seems to serve gullibility.

    How else would one separate fiction from fact?

    I cannot give credence to that which violates my sense of truth, responsibility, and reasoning.

    To me, thinking free is our greatest faculty.
    Its misuse violates all sensibility, and to me it is a "sin" to not use all the tools at hand to decipher our personal truth, that is, what we have discovered personally against that which is reality.

    Its the process of measuring experiences against facts.
    It causes the largest separation of us from the animal kingdom.

    If you are assuming a "god of the bible" postulation is true, without really using your "tool box," and any possibility other than a "feeling," IMHO you have in effect given up on the verification tools of your life....
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  4. #84
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Originally Posted by GHOST DOG
    I cannot invest more time in wishing and hoping.
    I have always found it to be a waste of time in any case. I just didn't follow my own advice - until I found God. Only God's patience is everlasting. So is his love for his creatures.
    But you were always following your own advice, before this god came into your life.

    You've only put the onus of this revelation on your invisible creator, as I see it.

    Even if we seek advice from others we don't take their advice until we hear them out and then decide to either take their advice, or defer to ours.

    What else could your god-bible belief be based in, if not the emotional opposites of fear and love, and the synonyms wishing and hoping?

    When the bible is only based in hyperbole, how can anyone say that they really know the god spoken of in the bible, and not just their own manipulations of how reality has really shown up for them?


    Who is to say that what you "hear" is the god of the bible, and now just your emotional explanation of a normal internal voice caught up in the limerence of your belief?

    Do you put too much "supernatural" prominence in your inner experiences?
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  5. #85
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    I've always wanted to know what it feels like to simply believe. Finally I know what a joy it is to not have to think for yourself 24/7 and you want me to let go of it so soon? I don't think so.

  6. #86
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    I've always wanted to know what it feels like to simply believe. Finally I know what a joy it is to not have to think for yourself 24/7 and you want me to let go of it so soon? I don't think so.
    I've nothing against belief systems, as we all have them.

    I just prefer that my beliefs are in alignment with observed reality...by subjecting them to the scrutiny of the test if possible, thats all.

    As far as the technicalities of science, I relinquish my authority to the scientific methods of the trained individuals who've dedicated their lives to it's discoveries.

    If you've never done a brake job on your car, and you just performed one, you would'nt get in it and drive down the road fast without first testing the ability of the brake system at a very slow speed, would you?

    If it was impossible for you to test, would you even drive it?
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  7. #87
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I just prefer that my beliefs are in alignment with observed reality...by subjecting them to the scrutiny of the test if possible, thats all.
    I must be in some time-space warp then because reality keeps changing too fast for me to be able to subject it to anything, let alone scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    If it was impossible for you to test, would you even drive it?
    It all depends on the circumstances. If that happened to be my only escape route, then hell, yeah, forget the damn tests, give me the car.

  8. #88
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    I must be in some time-space warp then because reality keeps changing too fast for me to be able to subject it to anything, let alone scrutiny.
    To a person that hasn't examined their beliefs against the real world very much some portions of reality might appear that way to them.
    Up is still up, and down is still down, and the basic, Newtonian laws of physics still stand, although Quantum laws are always in flux with new discoveries.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  9. #89
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Don't be such a wet blanket. Who needs rationality when it's so much better to just be able to yell "PTL" and mean it.

  10. #90
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Don't be such a wet blanket. Who needs rationality when it's so much better to just be able to yell "PTL" and mean it.
    LOL!!!! I give up!!! You win this debate!
    I cannot compete with logic such as this!
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  11. #91
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I cannot compete with logic such as this!
    Don't feel bad. No one can compete with such a logic. You just have to believe. That's the true beauty of the Bible - it's written in way that by the simple fact of entering the discussion, you can't win against God.

  12. #92
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Don't feel bad. No one can compete with such a logic. You just have to believe. That's the true beauty of the Bible - it's written in way that by the simple fact of entering the discussion, you can't win against God.
    In reality I cannot compete with the "logic" that you've advanced that effectively states that a person needs to give up on exploring that which proves out as factual in a real environment, such as the one we inhabit, and accept a belief system based on some superstitious premise, whose tenets cannot be duplicated.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  13. #93
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Huh? Just because spiritual sphere isn't tangible, doesn't mean it's not real. It's very real. Bible and other ancient spiritual texts are at the moment the best humanity still has at its disposal to even be able to explore the invisible sphere.

    When modern science moves beyond experimenting with drugs to change brain chemistry and starts coming up with cures similar to the miracles of healing, then you can say the Bible is outdated. Not until then.

  14. #94
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Huh? Just because spiritual sphere isn't tangible, doesn't mean it's not real. It's very real. Bible and other ancient spiritual texts are at the moment the best humanity still has at its disposal to even be able to explore the invisible sphere.
    And how on Earth then can you KNOW that it is real?

    "I feel it" is only an emotional attempt to answer a logical question that could never do this task in a satisfactory manner.....always has been this way.

    There is absolutely zero evidence for it's existence, and I feel that you realize that, and still choose to believe it.
    This is your choice and privilege to stay stagnant.

    1. There is only the anecdotal "evidence" of supernatural stories in a bible that actually disagrees with itself and with proper moral character in places.
    2. With no evidence of the supernatural in our times or in the past, you stand with your "truths" against the might of known reality...alone and ideologically bankrupt.

    When modern science moves beyond experimenting with drugs to change brain chemistry and starts coming up with cures similar to the miracles of healing, then you can say the Bible is outdated. Not until then.
    The body heals itself....or fails to heal itself.
    Everyone dies for some reason right on time.
    No god needed for death to either occur now, or for the body to heal and die at some other time.

    Most of the bible's meanings cause it to outdate itself.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  15. #95
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    And how on Earth then can you KNOW that it is real?
    He who knows, knows.

    I'm sick and tired of explaining obvious to me things to people who claim to be rational and all-knowing.

    Think of spiritual texts as the training for emotional intelligence for people who have little of it.

    Different people need different things. Usually what's hardest for you to do is what you need to work on the most. If it's hard for you to think, you should learn to think. If it's hard for you to believe, you should learn to believe. Etc.

  16. #96
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    Re: What did Jesus save us from?

    Quote Originally Posted by finix View Post
    He who knows, knows.

    I'm sick and tired of explaining obvious to me things to people who claim to be rational and all-knowing.

    Think of spiritual texts as the training for emotional intelligence for people who have little of it.

    Different people need different things. Usually what's hardest for you to do is what you need to work on the most. If it's hard for you to think, you should learn to think. If it's hard for you to believe, you should learn to believe. Etc.
    It's not hard to believe when evidence is presented. It's also not hard to believe in magic bubbles when one is 5 years old.

    No one is saying that you can't believe what you wish, by the way. They're really telling you that you have no right to condemn them for it if you expect them to not condemn you for your beliefs.

    Do I think your beliefs are silly? No. I think they're illogical and that you can't defend them in a meaningful way. I don't think you aren't entitled to HAVE them, however.

    Just don't go telling me how I'm serving the devil for it because then I get to challenge you to prove there IS a devil, and the game goes on.
    :mxmas:


    "The one thing women don't want to find in their stockings on Christmas morning is their husband." ~ Joan Rivers

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