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  1. #113
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    back then the fallen angel and their blood (dna) line were polluting mankind and the earth was becoming physically polluted

    "come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth"

    http://www.echoesofenoch.com/museum5%20UH_Gen3G6.htm
    Whats your point caller?

  2. #114
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    back then the fallen angel and their blood (dna) line were polluting mankind and the earth was becoming physically polluted
    Translated: "Don't with angels unless you can fly."
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  3. #115
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post

    So, you state, in effect, that the bible "is no hearsay,"(meaning that its written as fact, not rumor) and exactly six paragraphs later you state that it was "imperfect humans" that wrote about a perfect god.
    I'm seriously and thoroughly confused by your two conflicting statements, so I'll wait to hear your explanation of this apparent contradiction.
    Most of the major prophets and even the minor prophets addressed discrimination against Jews, their spreading out into the world, and returning to the promised land. It is a common theme throughout the Old Testament. Therefore, I don't believe this to be a mistake or an inaccurate statement. I believe much of the Old Testament is a genuine attempt to tell stories about what really happened between the Lord and Israel. I only know a few incidence through dreams, so I am not an authority,

    I had a most striking dream about the angel killing 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, it was Sennacherib huge army (Isiah 37:26). The angel was in the air looking up to the Lord. The angel proudly said, "It is done." On the ground were thousands of dead soldiers.

    If what you state is true, (that your personal god stole his gift to human being's, by manipulating our free will,) isn't he breaking his own commandment...."thou shall not steal?" Not a good example for a supreme being to set for his "children," is it? You must admit that what it considered righteous, is always righteous, no matter who commits the discrepancy. Your god, in effect, has created "puppets," not men, with no real experiences, that a free will would give us.
    Freewill has to do with choosing or not choosing God and what He commands. I see no manipulation going on. Because God is the creator of all things, heavenly and in the universe, He is not subject to human judgements.

    In reality God is not Zeus or some kind of ferocious human deity. There is an OT scene (I can't recall the verse) where God is perceived as a whispering wind.

    So this also means that god caused the Nazis to hate the Jews enough to create the Holocaust, in order to set this scenario up in The United Nations...to get the Jews their land, and create a constant war between the Palestinians and the Jews. Your god also creates wars? No wonder the planet is in an upheaval
    Except for time with His chosen people, God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. I don't know, but it may be possible that He influenced conditions for Israel to receive the Land. God has that kind of power.

    If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the bible state that god gave Moses the ten commandments to give to all men to obey? This would also make these commandments (standards) god's standards. I don't see a commandment stating that "The lord, god isn't setting an example for you to live by. He can break his own commandments whenever he sees fit." Or is god a "do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do, because-I'm-god" kind of creator? The universal rule of thumb is that the most powerful way to teach anyone is by example. Your god would, if he exists, know this is true.
    These are questions for God, not me. I do know however God is not required to set an example, because God has absolute sovereignty and is without fault. God can demand obedience according to his rules, not human rules.

    Wouldn't a god that is "all good," and supposedly created all men, choose to be an example to these men? Wouldn't stealing someone's free will, whenever he wants to, be a direct violation of this "free-will pact" between this god and his children?
    God is God, not man. For men, they can either choose or reject him. You cannot bargain with God.

    Why would an All-Powerful god, creator of everything, need angels to do his bidding? Why wouldn't he just "think it," and it would be "so?"
    He created angels for His own pleasure. He has allowed them to be part of his will.

    I'm sorry that you don't believe that your thoughts and actions are yours to control.
    It is up to each of us to take what we've been given, dream or reality, and apply is to either our growth, or our stagnation. Simple, huh? Discernment, discrimination, detachment...don't leave home without them.
    I've a feeling that you could've achieved these same goals with, or without your biblical beliefs...unless you became a priest, or reverend...
    I have freewill. One of my choices has been to learn about God. For that, I ask nothing for myself. Knowing what I know, I could never become part of any religious establishment. My beliefs make me a loner. However, I am also a realist, and as such I have been able to function and achieve my goals.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-07-2011 at 06:14 PM.

  4. #116
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    This is your initial posting to me about 'hearsay in the bible:
    Because the prophesies about Israel are in the Bible, there is no hearsay. Read then for yourself.
    Then you posted this sentence farther on down in the same post:
    Imperfect humans wrote about a perfect God.
    Heres Webster's definition of "hearsay":Your latest post to me:
    I believe much of the Old Testament is a genuine attempt to tell stories about what really happened between the Lord and Israel.
    Webster's definition of attempt:
    to make an effort to do, accomplish, solve, or effect
    Yet you state that those who wrote this "gospel evidence" down are "Imperfect humans," meaning that they are prone to contradicting each other's observations, exaggerations, misgivings about context, receiving second-hand accounts, perceptions etc. Do you see the contradiction? That the gospels, being written down by "Imperfect humans," might be hearsay? (Rumor) In fact, you, yourself have many times stated that the gospels aren't true, for the most part. Where do you draw the line between the true gospels, and the untrue ones?

    I know that you have your dreams and beliefs, Cnance. Be cautioned that these just might hold you back from discovering real truth in your life. Just an observation.

    Freewill has to do with choosing or not choosing God and what He commands.
    Merriam-Webster, the standard in the industry, takes a much larger stand on free will than you do:
    voluntary choice or decision free will> 2
    : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/promo...-app-promo.htm

    So..if there really is a god of the bible, this confirms that he is manipulating humans, by interfering in their free wills, thus making him guilty of theft, or violating his verbal contract with us.

    Because God is the creator of all things, heavenly and in the universe, He is not subject to human judgements.
    So god gets a "pass" because hes god. Being a prefect being, he must've known that his actions would certainly influence how humans interact with each other. This makes him guilty of teaching us to violate our integrity between each other, by the manipulation examples that our Divine Creator has set. You see, Cnance the "water has already gone under the bridge." A trained, thinking person sees that god sets a very bad example by his supposed actions, free pass, or not.

    His questionable example effectively states subliminally to us that we need not observe each other's individual freedoms to interact with others without an agenda to change the true scenarios we would've experienced. IOW, god's actions state to us that its good to manipulate other folks, since he is the supposed "perfect example" of how we must live. And I don't see where in the bible it states that god isn't perfect.

    I don't know, but it may be possible that He influenced conditions for Israel to receive the Land. God has that kind of power.
    This is, of course, "more grease for the hub," from the creator of bad blood between races of men.

    I do know however God is not required to set an example, because God has absolute sovereignty and is without fault.
    He may not be required to set one, however he is quite adept at setting a "subliminal" one.

    God can demand obedience according to his rules, not human rules.
    Ah yes....Obedience....the lowest form of living. Yet, he gives Moses the ten commandments, expects human beings to live by them, then shows to us, by example, that "thou shall not steal" is only words meant for humans to observe.....got it. He has effectively taken the "life" out of the phrase, by his manipulative actions.

    God is God, not man. For men, they can either choose or reject him. You cannot bargain with God.
    Don't need to....his actions, not his integrity, have spoken so loud that I cannot hear his words.
    An example set is still what people go by. Folks don't say what they mean, they do what they mean. Even gods. You know, this whole affair, his supposedly manipulating men, in the old testament, like the scenarios in Egypt, could just be some more incoherent testimony from those "Imperfect humans."

    He created angels for His own pleasure. He has allowed them to be part of his will.
    Hmmm....ok....I can go along with that, although its inconsistent with logic, that is, if god can do all things. He must've gotten terribly lonely up there. Why didn't he just take away his loneliness? Is that why he created those angels?

    I have freewill. One of my choices has been to learn about God.
    Yes you do...only your beliefs keep you free to walk around on the "ocean liner of biased, unchallenged belief" that is out to sea....while those who choose to think freely, testing that which is testable, and discarding that which has no basis, have the "run of the universe." Thats about the extent of your free will.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 12-09-2011 at 04:44 AM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  5. #117
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    This is your initial posting to me about 'hearsay in the bible:
    Then you posted this sentence farther on down in the same post:
    Heres Webster's definition of "hearsay":Your latest post to me:
    Webster's definition of attempt:
    Yet you state that those who wrote this "gospel evidence" down are "Imperfect humans," meaning that they are prone to contradicting each other's observations, exaggerations, misgivings about context, receiving second-hand accounts, perceptions etc. Do you see the contradiction? That the gospels, being written down by "Imperfect humans," might be hearsay? (Rumor) In fact, you, yourself have many times stated that the gospels aren't true, for the most part. Where do you draw the line between the true gospels, and the untrue ones?

    I know that you have your dreams and beliefs, Cnance. Be cautioned that these just might hold you back from discovering real truth in your life. Just an observation.

    Merriam-Webster, the standard in the industry, takes a much larger stand on free will than you do:
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/promo...-app-promo.htm

    So..if there really is a god of the bible, this confirms that he is manipulating humans, by interfering in their free wills, thus making him guilty of theft, or violating his verbal contract with us.

    So god gets a "pass" because hes god. Being a prefect being, he must've known that his actions would certainly influence how humans interact with each other. This makes him guilty of teaching us to violate our integrity between each other, by the manipulation examples that our Divine Creator has set. You see, Cnance the "water has already gone under the bridge." A trained, thinking person sees that god sets a very bad example by his supposed actions, free pass, or not.

    His questionable example effectively states subliminally to us that we need not observe each other's individual freedoms to interact with others without an agenda to change the true scenarios we would've experienced. IOW, god's actions state to us that its good to manipulate other folks, since he is the supposed "perfect example" of how we must live. And I don't see where in the bible it states that god isn't perfect.

    This is, of course, "more grease for the hub," from the creator of bad blood between races of men.

    He may not be required to set one, however he is quite adept at setting a "subliminal" one.
    Ah yes....Obedience....the lowest form of living. Yet, he gives Moses the ten commandments, expects human beings to live by them, then shows to us, by example, that "thou shall not steal" is only words meant for humans to observe.....got it. He has effectively taken the "life" out of the phrase, by his manipulative actions.

    Don't need to....his actions, not his integrity, have spoken so loud that I cannot hear his words.
    An example set is still what people go by. Folks don't say what they mean, they do what they mean. Even gods. You know, this whole affair, his supposedly manipulating men, in the old testament, like the scenarios in Egypt, could just be some more incoherent testimony from those "Imperfect humans."

    Hmmm....ok....I can go along with that, although its inconsistent with logic, that is, if god can do all things. He must've gotten terribly lonely up there. Why didn't he just take away his loneliness? Is that why he created those angels?

    Yes you do...only your beliefs keep you free to walk around on the "ocean liner of biased, unchallenged belief" that is out to sea....while those who choose to think freely, testing that which is testable, and discarding that which has no basis, have the "run of the planet." Thats about the extent of your free will.
    You should read my exchanges with Lord jag a few months ago, or longer, I can't recall exactly when. Anyway, he said almost word for word your criticisms of my ideas about God, except he didn't dwell on biblical verses as you have.

    Assuming I'm correct about God, nothing changes. As I stated I am not the final authority, but based on what others believe about God, I feel brilliant. Just think of it, no other human believes God created the universe as a prison for God, and all the rest of my ideas. I should start a new religion. Oh, oh, wait, that won't work. Religion in one form or another advocates for salvation. Clearly, I would have any followers. Too bad, I always wanted to be famous.

    There is no use continuing our discussion. You, like Lord jag, have reached the same point. I'll summarize it. Since I depend on dreams to interpret the Bible, all of what I've said must is untrue. And since the Bible is mostly myths and fantasy land stuff, I've just added to all the bible babble.

    As for your judgements about God, Lord jag posted the same ideas. How dare God be like that! Well, since I have no credibility, why bother discussing it. Actually based on atheist, or skeptical agnostics like yourself, all discussion about God and the Bible is garbage. As I've said repeated, in the end it doesn't matter. We all end up the same. For me, it's satisfying knowing the truth about God.

    I just finished watching a TV program about WWI. What a terrible commentary on humanity. Then, there was WWII, an even worse slaughter of humans. Humans don't have a good case for being saved. Now, we have a new possibility for conducting warfare, this time with more efficient nuclear weapons. Not a pretty picture.

    I know your rebuttal. It's God's fault because he made us that way. That is an ancient grievance against God. I believe it began with Satan when he turned on God and the angels. Didn't God know Satan would rebel? Only God can answer that question. I kind of think God knew, that's why He created twenty four more angels. Why would God repeat that situation with creatures on earth? Again, I believe we're collateral damage from paradise lost.

    You made a good case for human independence, such noble ideas. However, it wont work in heaven. There is just one will, and that's God's will. Free spirit is a human idea, but in heaven, there are no free spirits. So based on that, humans chose to be separate from God. Oh, I know, here again, why did God give his creatures free will if he knew they wouldn't choose Him? You should ask God that question. However, since you don't believe in God, at least not the Lord of the Bible, there is no problem.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-08-2011 at 08:42 AM.

  6. #118
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    As for your judgements about God, Lord jag posted the same ideas. How dare God be like that!
    IF there is this god of the bible, he models bad behavior. (Which, according to the bible, he WOULD NOT DO, being "all-good.")
    So, with the writings of the old testament, if they are really the flawless word of god, written down by his prophets, he is rightly accused of robbing humans of their free will.

    What I think that my points made in our conversation do show is that this god is a contradiction. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Thus, the confusion that lies create.
    In effect, the god of the bible is not real, as he breaks his own written commandments to the folks hes supposed to love and cherish. Nuff' said.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  7. #119
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    IF there is this god of the bible, he models bad behavior. (Which, according to the bible, he WOULD NOT DO, being "all-good.")
    So, with the writings of the old testament, if they are really the flawless word of god, written down by his prophets, he is rightly accused of robbing humans of their free will.

    What I think that my points made in our conversation do show is that this god is a contradiction. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Thus, the confusion that lies create.
    In effect, the god of the bible is not real, as he breaks his own written commandments to the folks hes supposed to love and cherish. Nuff' said.
    Again, you've set up a straw man to attack. I have repeatedly said the Bible is not perfect, it was written by men, who are by their own admittance, imperfect.

    It appears you have you mind made up, so our discussion is a waste of time. I'm certain that no matter how I argue the case for God's perfection, you will find Him to be a liar and a fraud. Now, you need to convince God of the error of His ways. That won't be necessary however because you've made up your mind that the Bible is invalid.

    It's obvious that you take a superior intellectual attitude about God and the Bible. I guess it is because God didn't have a college education. Poor, poor God, how unenlightened and ignorant He is about the world.

    All of this discussion about the imperfections of God and the Bible is a distraction from the main topic. Remember, it began when I pointed to Israel as proof for God. As the prophets predicted, the Jews have returned from around the world to their promised land. Now, we wait the final battle between Israel and enemies of God.

    It is clear that you have ignored that argument. You've even refused to read those prophesies. It is as if you want to avoid the topic, one that will determine the fate of the world. To reject those prophesies you've declared the Bible to be in error. How very convenient.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-08-2011 at 06:30 PM.

  8. #120
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    I'm certain that no matter how I argue the case for God's perfection, you will find Him to be a liar and a fraud.
    Do you consider the story of the Israelites fleeing the Egyptians in the old testament true to life? I'm under the impression that you do/don't believe it. Please explain, if you don't think that this particular story is true.

    IF there is a god of the bible, then you claim he is not only ALL-POWERFUL, but ALL-GOOD. We'll assume for a moment that he exists, which also assumes that he is both of these qualities, since he must've created everything, and as your bible states he created evil also.

    The bible is perceived by men to be the word of this god. All of Christianity's beliefs lie in this book of laws and stories.

    What I understand from YOUR POSTS is two-fold...

    1. Imperfect men wrote down either what god told them, or what they felt was a reasonable assessment of god.

    2. The bible isn't true IN CERTAIN PLACES, just rumors, but only where you tell people it isn't true.

    You seem to believe that the old testament contains the only true writings in the bible. So I merely brought up the old testament stories of god and how he influenced (manipulated) the beliefs of the Israelites, when he demonstrated his supernatural power to them, by destroying thousands of Egyptians in order to save their lives.

    This single event, which if it happened the way the bible says it did, would certainly be a supernatural occurrence, causing ordinary folks to drop down to the ground, terrified by god's murderous might! Certainly this single event is grounds for my accusation of the manipulation of innocent folks by this god. As if there wasn't enough fear already in these folks.

    If god is all-powerful, he would also have the supernatural gift of prior knowledge before occurrences took place. A creator of everything in the universe would need to know outcomes before the construction, or the occurrence. If he didn't want to manipulate the Israelites experiences, before this event with the Egyptians took place, he could've silently, corrected the events leading up to the confrontation, causing a different outcome, without the theatrics of the death of the Egyptians, thus safeguarding the Israelites.
    BOTTOM LINE:

    I merely point out that the scenarios of the god of the bible existing are struck down by the anomalies presented.

    Every integrity-based individual knows that it is wrong to influence someone else's experience unfairly, which effectively robs them of a true, realistic personal experience of the situation. But for the god of the bible to break his "promise" to mankind, that they enjoy the gift of free will unabated, is a break with his own laws concerning theft. This fact is crystal-clear.

    The chance for those individuals to grow from their own experience, fighting and possibly defeating the Egyptians, was lost.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 12-09-2011 at 04:47 AM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  9. #121
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Do you consider the story of the Israelites fleeing the Egyptians in the old testament true to life? I'm under the impression that you do/don't believe it. Please explain, if you don't think that this particular story is true.

    IF there is a god of the bible, then you claim he is not only ALL-POWERFUL, but ALL-GOOD. We'll assume for a moment that he exists, which also assumes that he is both of these qualities, since he must've created everything, and as your bible states he created evil also.

    The bible is perceived by men to be the word of this god. All of Christianity's beliefs lie in this book of laws and stories.

    What I understand from YOUR POSTS is two-fold...

    1. Imperfect men wrote down either what god told them, or what they felt was a reasonable assessment of god.

    2. The bible isn't true IN CERTAIN PLACES, just rumors, but only where you tell people it isn't true.

    You seem to believe that the old testament contains the only true writings in the bible. So I merely brought up the old testament stories of god and how he influenced (manipulated) the beliefs of the Israelites, when he demonstrated his supernatural power to them, by destroying thousands of Egyptians in order to save their lives.

    This single event, which if it happened the way the bible says it did, would certainly be a supernatural occurrence, causing ordinary folks to drop down to the ground, terrified by god's murderous might! Certainly this single event is grounds for my accusation of the manipulation of innocent folks by this god. As if there wasn't enough fear already in these folks.

    If god is all-powerful, he would also have the supernatural gift of prior knowledge before occurrences took place. A creator of everything in the universe would need to know outcomes before the construction, or the occurrence. If he didn't want to manipulate the Israelites experiences, before this event with the Egyptians took place, he could've silently, corrected the events leading up to the confrontation, causing a different outcome, without the theatrics of the death of the Egyptians, thus safeguarding the Israelites.
    BOTTOM LINE:

    I merely point out that the scenarios of the god of the bible existing are struck down by the anomalies presented.

    Every integrity-based individual knows that it is wrong to influence someone else's experience unfairly, which effectively robs them of a true, realistic personal experience of the situation. But for the god of the bible to break his "promise" to mankind, that they enjoy the gift of free will unabated, is a break with his own laws concerning theft. This fact is crystal-clear.

    The chance for those individuals to grow from their own experience, fighting and possibly defeating the Egyptians, was lost.

    What is the purpose of this discussion? I lost track. I think it began when I stated that Israel was proof of God's existence based on Bible prophesy. Now, you are accusing Him of not doing it the "correct" way. To be such a critique you must be a god. Since there is only one God, you have no credibility.

    I have opinions about why God did what He did with his chosen people, but I have already learned that you, like Lord jag, will turn that around with some morally outrageous argument that borders on lunacy. To summarize, God has absolute sovereignty. What you assume is that God is just another human being.

    I've explained what I believe about God. Now, you're asking me to go beyond what I know and explain the mind of God. Sorry, I don't qualify. I think what you are doing is ridiculous.

    It is obvious that you don't believe in the Bible; therefore, you don't believe in the Lord. Since there is no material evidence for God, we are wasting our time. I'm certain that if you were the presence of God or an angel of God, you would call it an illusion.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-09-2011 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #122
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    What is the purpose of this discussion?
    Why it is to support my claim that the idea of a god described by what is written in the Christian bible is an impossibility, based on it's conflicting parables and exaggerating accounts of phenomena never observed in reality...what else? The more I see of what is written down in that book, the more confidence I have in the creator of the universe being an impersonal Force, or Forces.

    I think it began when I stated that Israel was proof of God's existence based on Bible prophesy.
    I think that I've already disproved that premise.....very well.
    Re-read some earlier exchanges of mine, if you don't remember.

    Now, you are accusing Him of not doing it the "correct" way.
    Thats not what I stated. I stated that if there is a god of the bible, hes modelling very bad behavior.

    I think what you are doing is ridiculous.
    Why is it ridiculous to offer proof of something's apparent non-existence?
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Why it is to support my claim that the idea of a god described by what is written in the Christian bible is an impossibility, based on it's conflicting parables and exaggerating accounts of phenomena never observed in reality...what else? The more I see of what is written down in that book, the more confidence I have in the creator of the universe being an impersonal Force, or Forces.
    You're hot alone, others have created their own gods. You call it "Forces."
    I find it amusing that you discount the possibility of a spiritual being, and yet you claim to be an agnostic. It is also interesting that you declare biblical authors to be liars. You say, "exaggerated accounts of phenomena never observed in reality," How do you know? Where you there?

    I think that I've already disproved that premise.....very well.
    Re-read some earlier exchanges of mine, if you don't remember.
    You have disproved nothing. You know those prophesies are in the Bible. Have you read them? I think when you pick up a Bible your hand burns. You've claimed the Bible to be invalid, therefore all prophesies are bunk. It is either, how can that be true, or that is morally wrong, God is an idiot.

    Thats not what I stated. I stated that if there is a god of the bible, hes modelling very bad behavior.
    For you, this is a bible bashing contest not a discussion.

    Why is it ridiculous to offer proof of something's apparent non-existence?
    Again, our discussion is a waste of time. You have proven nothing. How can you make an argument when you refuse to believe what is being discussed. All you can say is "i don't believe it," or if it were true, "God is an idiot."

    You claim to be an agnostic, but your words say otherwise.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-10-2011 at 11:10 AM.

  12. #124
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    I find it amusing that you discount the possibility of a spiritual being, and yet you claim to be an agnostic.
    Simple...theres absolutely zero evidence to back up the "spiritual " claim...ever. I'll eat crow, when viable evidence is found and presented. Until then it's only support for a myth.


    It is also interesting that you declare biblical authors to be liars. You say, "exaggerated accounts of phenomena never observed in reality," How do you know? Where you there?
    The way that you give accounts of things, it sounds like you were.
    All I'm saying is that factual, logical occurrences we perceive today have been the way they are now for millions of years. Unless physics has changed between today and the times of the old testament, I say that the "supernatural" accounts given in the bible are patently false.
    Or god makes mistakes and must correct them. The proof of this is his interference in the old testament.
    You have disproved nothing. You know those prophesies are in the Bible. Have you read them?
    I have proved that your god, being perfect is not true, if he does exist. If he is all good, he has modeled poor behavior for his "beloved' children, which every parent knows is wrong. If he exists, a manipulator he is.
    Deductively speaking, an all good personal creator cannot exist, since he proves that hes a poor example of how to live, by breaking his own laws. (Thou shall not steal.) This very fact nullifies his existence.
    He has reneged on his promise of "free will," by his meddling in the experiences of the ancient Israelites.
    You've claimed the Bible to be invalid, therefore all prophesies are bunk.
    You also make the same, identical claim...that the bible's gospels are mostly "rumors." I've already called you on this very subject...remember?

    For you, this is a bible bashing contest not a discussion.
    I only "bash" the misinformation and the stupidity that people create about the impossible accounts given in the bible. It has many beautiful and informative passages in it. The people that claim that the supernatural events are "fact," and therefore a reason to fall down and give thanks to a personal creator of the bible, are those that spread the misinformation and stupidity.
    You claim to be an agnostic, but your words say otherwise.
    You're right...I should call myself a Deist.


    Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature that he configured when he created all things. God is thus conceived to be wholly transcendent and never immanent. For Deists, human beings can only know God via reason and the observation of nature but not by revelation or supernatural manifestations (such as miracles) – phenomena which Deists regard with caution if not skepticism. See the section Features of deism, following. Deism can also refer to a personal set of beliefs having to do with the role of nature in spirituality.[10]
    Deism can be a belief in a deity absent of any doctrinal governance or precise definition of the nature of such a deity. Deism bears a relationship to naturalism. As such, Deism gives credit for the formation of life and the universe to a higher power that by design allows only natural processes to govern creation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  13. #125
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Simple...theres absolutely zero evidence to back up the "spiritual " claim...ever. I'll eat crow, when viable evidence is found and presented. Until then it's only support for a myth.
    That really is amusing. If it wasn't spritural, then what was it? Maybe a supercomputer with highly intelligent aliens. What other alternative could there be? If not spiritual, what is
    "Forces?"

    The way that you give accounts of things, it sounds like you were.
    All I'm saying is that factual, logical occurrences we perceive today have been the way they are now for millions of years. Unless physics has changed between today and the times of the old testament, I say that the "supernatural" accounts given in the bible are patently false.
    Again, if not spiritual, what could they be? Here again we are back to square one. How can matter create itself?

    Or god makes mistakes and must correct them. The proof of this is his interference in the old testament.
    I have proved that your god, being perfect is not true, if he does exist. If he is all good, he has modeled poor behavior for his "beloved' children, which every parent knows is wrong. If he exists, a manipulator he is.
    Deductively speaking, an all good personal creator cannot exist, since he proves that hes a poor example of how to live, by breaking his own laws. (Thou shall not steal.) This very fact nullifies his existence.
    He has reneged on his promise of "free will," by his meddling in the experiences of the ancient Israelites.
    You also make the same, identical claim...that the bible's gospels are mostly "rumors." I've already called you on this very subject...remember?
    Yes, you got me there. I have said Jesus was not the son of God, therefore the gospels and Paul are in error.

    However, rather than debating that, we are debateding the athenticity of god vis-a-vis the Ole Testament. I cannot argue God's dicisoins, so I just let it go. If you believe the Lord is God then you can debate with Him. If not, there is no use debating anything about the Bible.


    I only "bash" the misinformation and the stupidity that people create about the impossible accounts given in the bible. It has many beautiful and informative passages in it. The people that claim that the supernatural events are "fact," and therefore a reason to fall down and give thanks to a personal creator of the bible, are those that spread the misinformation and stupidity.
    You're right...I should call myself a Deist.
    Ir you call yourself a deist, you must mean God created the universe, and then abandoned His creation. You can claim that, but that means you discount the Bible. So, we have no basis for discussion.

  14. #126
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    My post:
    Or god makes mistakes and must correct them. The proof of this is his interference in the old testament.
    I have proved that your god, being perfect is not true, if he does exist. If he is all good, he has modeled poor behavior for his "beloved' children, which every parent knows is wrong. If he exists, a manipulator he is.
    Deductively speaking, an all good personal creator cannot exist, since he proves that hes a poor example of how to live, by breaking his own laws. (Thou shall not steal.) This very fact nullifies his existence.
    He has reneged on his promise of "free will," by his meddling in the experiences of the ancient Israelites.
    You also make the same, identical claim...that the bible's gospels are mostly "rumors." I've already called you on this very subject...remember?
    Your post:
    Yes, you got me there. I have said Jesus was not the son of God, therefore the gospels and Paul are in error.
    Some "bible expert" you are! You know that Jesus isn't mentioned in the old testament! It only mentions a "Messiah."
    You know it isn't Jesus that I'm talking about this time, but the god mentioned in the old testament, although the new testament claims that Jesus committed similar "meddling" discrepancies at different occasions like the god of the old testament did. I've talked to you about this problem in a prior post. You failed to refute that proof, also.

    Com'on Cnance, you are stonewalling, because you haven't an answer to this dilemma. Its very obvious. My observations explain themselves. I'm not blind to the situation, and neither are you.
    Defending these anomalies in the Christian bible has put your position on a slippery slope.
    Again, if not spiritual, what could they be? Here again we are back to square one. How can matter create itself?
    Simple...they are either falsifications, or delusions. If you don't buy this answer, than just bring some solid, irrefutable proof of "supernatural" spirituality, and I'll admit that there is proof of spirituality....simple, huh?


    Ir you call yourself a deist, you must mean God created the universe, and then abandoned His creation. You can claim that, but that means you discount the Bible. So, we have no basis for discussion.
    You already have my definition...I consider myself a "sort-of" deist. There is no personal god of the bible. I believe in a non-personal
    Force, or Forces
    UNATTACHED TO ANYTHING that was created at First Cause....the smallest particle, or the largest star. As far as a description of god, the bible or quran is fantasy.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 12-10-2011 at 07:09 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  15. #127
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    Jul 2009
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    6,872

    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    My post:
    Your post:
    Some "bible expert" you are! You know that Jesus isn't mentioned in the old testament! It only mentions a "Messiah."
    You are not very careful. What I have repeatedly posted is that the "son of God" is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Yes. Messiah or Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14) is mentioned in the context of the Lord coming. However, if you read the OT there is no mention of the son of God. That was invented by NT authors as a coverup for the brutal murder of God (Jesus) Revelation 11.

    You know it isn't Jesus that I'm talking about this time, but the god mentioned in the old testament, although the new testament claims that Jesus committed similar "meddling" discrepancies at different occasions like the god of the old testament did. I've talked to you about this problem in a prior post. You failed to refute that proof, also.

    Com'on Cnance, you are stonewalling, because you haven't an answer to this dilemma. Its very obvious. My observations explain themselves. I'm not blind to the situation, and neither are you.
    Defending these anomalies in the Christian bible has put your position on a slippery slope.
    Simple...they are either falsifications, or delusions. If you don't buy this answer, than just bring some solid, irrefutable proof of "supernatural" spirituality, and I'll admit that there is proof of spirituality....simple, huh?
    I don't know what you're talking about. If you are trying to critique the Bible based on contradictions, so what! I have repeatedly said it is a book written by imperfect men about a perfect God.

    I have my own ideas about those contradictions, but there is no use discussing them. As before, it'll only lead to a dead end. You have your mind made up and I have no desire to promote a new religion.

    You keep mentioning meddling. If you mean God commanded His chosen people to do such and such, well that is His privilege. You and many others believe God has no right to tell humans what to do. Well, that's precisely the problem. Free spirits live apart from God.

    No use debating the goodness or badness of God, I won't go there. I accept God without reservations, qualifications or stipulations. Argue with someone else about the "evil deity."


    You already have my definition...I consider myself a "sort-of" deist. There is no personal god of the bible. I believe in a non-personal
    Force, or Forces
    UNATTACHED TO ANYTHING that was created at First Cause....the smallest particle, or the largest star. As far as a description of god, the bible or quran is fantasy.
    So, if you don't believe the Bible, why bother discussing it? It is like discussing a sunset when one person doesn't believe in the sun.

    As you wait for revelations about your Force God, I'll continue to read the Bible for revelations about the Lord God. I am way ahead of you however because I already know about God. You have to wait a very long long long time. Actually, you'll never find it outside the Bible. Like it or not, God came to earth. Although flawed, the Bible is humans only record of that visit.

  16. #128
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    MY ORIGINAL POST:

    Or god makes mistakes and must correct them. The proof of this is his interference in the old testament.
    I have proved that your god, being perfect is not true, if he does exist. If he is all good, he has modeled poor behavior for his "beloved' children, which every parent knows is wrong. If he exists, a manipulator he is.
    Deductively speaking, an all good personal creator cannot exist, since he proves that hes a poor example of how to live, by breaking his own laws. (Thou shall not steal.) This very fact nullifies his existence.
    He has reneged on his promise of "free will," by his meddling in the experiences of the ancient Israelites.
    You also make the same, identical claim...that the bible's gospels are mostly "rumors." I've already called you on this very subject...remember?


    Your quote:

    You are not very careful. What I have repeatedly posted is that the "son of God" is not mentioned in the Old Testament.
    [/quote]Then why do you answer my post, in which I was specifically speaking of the old testament and god of the old testament interfering in the Israelite's business,
    with this post:
    Yes, you got me there. I have said Jesus was not the son of God, therefore the gospels and Paul are in error.
    I then stated this:
    Some "bible expert" you are! You know that Jesus isn't mentioned in the old testament! It only mentions a "Messiah."
    If you knew that Jesus wasn't in the old testament, what does your response have to do with my original statement about the old testament god, and his meddling?
    You keep mentioning meddling.
    If the bible's accounts are correct about his saving the Israelites from the Egyptians, why yes, he has meddled in their gift of free will, by their witnessing god's supernatural destruction of the Egyptian army. Changing the natural occurrences of their natural experiences of free will would be meddling with their beliefs.
    Just look at the effect this one incident has had on past and present folks that now literally believe in this drivel from the past, if this god is indeed "real." It doesn't make any difference if god "gets a pass" on this action, since hes already set a bad example by influencing their free will.
    If you mean God commanded His chosen people to do such and such, well that is His privilege.
    HaHaHa! A Christian Apologist's response, if I've ever heard one. Especially from one that doesn't even think that the bible is a true account.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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