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  1. #129
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    MY ORIGINAL POST:

    Your quote:
    Then why do you answer my post, in which I was specifically speaking of the old testament and god of the old testament interfering in the Israelite's business,
    with this post:
    I then stated this:
    If you knew that Jesus wasn't in the old testament, what does your response have to do with my original statement about the old testament god, and his meddling?
    I replied to your statement, "Some "bible expert" you are! You know that Jesus isn't mentioned in the old testament! It only mentions a "Messiah."

    If the bible's accounts are correct about his saving the Israelites from the Egyptians, why yes, he has meddled in their gift of free will, by their witnessing god's supernatural destruction of the Egyptian army. Changing the natural occurrences of their natural experiences of free will would be meddling with their beliefs.
    Just look at the effect this one incident has had on past and present folks that now literally believe in this drivel from the past, if this god is indeed "real." It doesn't make any difference if god "gets a pass" on this action, since hes already set a bad example by influencing their free will.
    HaHaHa! A Christian Apologist's response, if I've ever heard one. Especially from one that doesn't even think that the bible is a true account.
    You don't understand freewill in relationship to God. Yes, the Israelis had freewill, but the meant they had choices to accept or reject GOD'S WILL. That required them to commit to God or, as prophets proclaimed, be REBELLIOUS. Most free spirits reject the idea that humans must be subject to God's will. You are a good example of this problem. You believe Israelis should have been free to work out there own destiny. That "free spirit" idea is very prevalent among educated people, it's part of human nature.

    You also have another problem with the OT Lord. You keep coming up with better ways by which he could have handled situations. You should go into the god business. First, you need to have the power to create and be Holy. Then, you need to acquire another dimension of understanding. Yes, you need to become eternal. You know, see into the future or have a 360 degree view of things. When you can do all these things maybe you can challenge God.

  2. #130
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    I replied to your statement, "Some "bible expert" you are! You know that Jesus isn't mentioned in the old testament! It only mentions a "Messiah."
    I can see that...I could see that 2 posts ago. Look..if you don't have an answer that you feel is good enough to answer my statement about the old testament god manipulating the Israelite's experiences of free will, then just say so. You don't need to try to confuse the issues with me. I would hope that you knew this fact. Or do you really have a reading comprehension problem? Please, I'm not mocking you, Cnance, I'm just curious.

    The reasons that I go after the bible is because many Christians base their beliefs in it's god description. I basically point out where it is inconsistent with a normal reality.

    You don't understand freewill in relationship to God. Yes, the Israelis had freewill, but the meant they had choices to accept or reject GOD'S WILL.
    If what you say is true, then if there is a biblical god, theres no such thing as REAL free will, its conditional, at best. this "fact" (a fact ONLY if the god described in the bible is real) makes us all slaves to his will.

    A SCENARIO:
    If I don't believe in him, or the bible, lets say because the "evidence" contained in his book insults the intelligence he gave to me, even though I'm a very good, harmless man, I'm doomed to hell, even if I'm good outside of his conditional parameters! That is some "merciful god" you got there, Cnance. Look..I'll once more give you Webster's definition of Free Will:

    voluntary choice or decision free will> 2
    : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
    Read it again...slowly. This is the ONLY definition that fits with reality. It doesn't make any distinction between only being able to choose god's will, and having a totally free will within the bounds of human experience.

    You believe Israelis should have been free to work out there own destiny.
    Well..........aren't YOU entitled to that.....Freedom? You just don't have a "supernatural friend," who can part the waters of the Red Sea, both to impress those simple folks, and to also wipe out their enemies, do you?

    That "free spirit" idea is very prevalent among educated people, it's part of human nature.
    Like I stated earlier, your beliefs keep you free to roam around on the ocean liner that is out to sea, while those who think free have the entire universe to be free in.
    You deserve better, pal.

    You also have another problem with the OT Lord. You keep coming up with better ways by which he could have handled situations.
    A god who was capable of constructing an entire universe would have the prior knowledge that the Israelites would be in bondage, way before it happened, especially if they were his CHOSEN PEOPLE! He could've subtly changed the chain of events prior to the Red Sea event to cause a different outcome so that he, himself wouldn't have to go back to Earth and kill thousands of Egyptians. No human would've known the difference!

    The stories in the bible make god look like he made a mistake, or that he wanted to manipulate his chosen people's free will, by going back to Earth and giving them a supernatural experience. I'm making the biblical accounts of this look bad, because I'm applying logic to them.
    Is this the "god of logic?"

    First, you need to have the power to create and be Holy.
    I don't need that which is impossible, to create things. And I have the power to dissolve that which you call holy...its called logic, reason, and common sense.
    Remember, Cnance, when it shows up and can be accounted for with formal observations of the phenomena, then it is real. Before then it is only belief and hearsay. (rumor)

    You know, see into the future or have a 360 degree view of things. When you can do all these things maybe you can challenge God.
    So.....you do admit that this supposed "creator of the universe," that is spoken of in the Christian bible, DOES have prior knowledge?
    I rest my case..........
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  3. #131
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I can see that...I could see that 2 posts ago. Look..if you don't have an answer that you feel is good enough to answer my statement about the old testament god manipulating the Israelite's experiences of free will, then just say so. You don't need to try to confuse the issues with me. I would hope that you knew this fact. Or do you really have a reading comprehension problem? Please, I'm not mocking you, Cnance, I'm just curious.
    I have opinions about why God did such and such, but I'm not one who claims to know through the Holy Ghost. How can a dream match a divinity degree? Ha, ha, ha. I've got myself into a mess now. You should be debating with a theologian, not a crackpot amateur like me.

    The reasons that I go after the bible is because many Christians base their beliefs in it's god description. I basically point out where it is inconsistent with a normal reality.
    I understand, those inconsistencies cannot be explained without assuming the Lord really was God. That's the difference between us. We have a difficult bridge to cross. We are without common ground.

    If what you say is true, then if there is a biblical god, theres no such thing as REAL free will, its conditional, at best. this "fact" (a fact ONLY if the god described in the bible is real) makes us all slaves to his will.
    We are not slaves to God's will. I don't believe that proviso of freewill being constrained by "divine will" is an issue because I don't believe God constrained the Israelis. If he had there would be no rebellion. Thus, the Israelis by their own "freewill" chose to disobey God. The same thing applied to Satan. He had freewill to chose or reject God. His rebellion against God caused the universe and subsequent problems for humans.

    A SCENARIO: If I don't believe in him, or the bible, lets say because the "evidence" contained in his book insults the intelligence he gave to me, even though I'm a very good, harmless man, I'm doomed to hell, even if I'm good outside of his conditional parameters! That is some "merciful god" you got there, Cnance. Look..I'll once more give you Webster's definition of Free Will:
    I understand. As I've said, I believe we're collateral damage. Creatures in paradise at the time of the dinosaurs had little intelligence compared to humans. Their purpose was to provide pleasure for God. In turn, God loved them and gave them immortality. All of that requires creatures with little brain power. That's my radical view of paradise. High intelligence is not required for obedience to God. Human intelligence is a product of evolution, not spiritual necessity.

    Read it again...slowly. This is the ONLY definition that fits with reality. It doesn't make any distinction between only being able to choose god's will, and having a totally free will within the bounds of human experience.
    I believe humans have a natural tendency to shy away from the presence of God. Here is my favorite OT passage about a human in the presence of God. "The spirit then lifted my up and took me away, and I went in bitterness and in the anger of my spirit, with the strong hand of the Lord upon me." Ezekiel 3:14. There are other passages about prophets falling flat on their faces or not being able to look at God. Moses was told never to look at the face of God, etc. It's a common theme in the Bible.

    Well..........aren't YOU entitled to that.....Freedom? You just don't have a "supernatural friend," who can part the waters of the Red Sea, both to impress those simple folks, and to also wipe out their enemies, do you?
    I wish I had been a Jew when those things happened. Days with God are gone forever.

    Like I stated earlier, your beliefs keep you free to roam around on the ocean liner that is out to sea, while those who think free have the entire universe to be free in.
    You deserve better, pal.
    No, knowing about God is extremely liberating. It's because of my inclination to know about God. Knowing key variables about God, heaven, and the universe is very satisfying. I am not constrained by my ideas of God. I write fiction and have published two books. They're not about religion or God.

    A god who was capable of constructing an entire universe would have the prior knowledge that the Israelites would be in bondage, way before it happened, especially if they were his CHOSEN PEOPLE! He could've subtly changed the chain of events prior to the Red Sea event to cause a different outcome so that he, himself wouldn't have to go back to Earth and kill thousands of Egyptians. No human would've known the difference!
    Again, you're second guessing God. I refuse to to that. That would mean I am His equal. God doesn't require advise or counsel.

    The stories in the bible make god look like he made a mistake, or that he wanted to manipulate his chosen people's free will, by going back to Earth and giving them a supernatural experience. I'm making the biblical accounts of this look bad, because I'm applying logic to them.
    Is this the "god of logic?"
    I think logic is good tool for the world, but it doesn't always apply to God. Certainly, our material world conforms to laws of logic, but that's material, not spiritual. Again, I have limited understanding of God. Based on what theologians believe, I am different. The problem is what I know doesn't correspond to mainstream religion or theology. However, I'm not stupid. I won't challenge them. I want to live in peace.
    I don't need that which is impossible, to create things. And I have the power to dissolve that which you call holy...its called logic, reason, and common sense.
    Remember, Cnance, when it shows up and can be accounted for with formal observations of the phenomena, then it is real. Before then it is only belief and hearsay. (rumor)
    That's fine for you. My world is different. Don't start lecturing me now.
    I am certain of what I know about God. Formal is what we've made from our material world. Spirituality as applied to God is not necessarily logical.

    So.....you do admit that this supposed "creator of the universe," that is spoken of in the Christian bible, DOES have prior knowledge?
    I rest my case..........[/qute]
    I don't admit to anything. I only have my beliefs based on limited experience and understanding. Based on what I know, It's likely that God had prior knowledge about events. In the Bible it's called prophesy. However, whereas you think that condemns God for not preventing calamity, I refuse to make such judgements.

    I don't think you have a case unless you want to apply human standards to God. In that case, there is no case because creatures have no authority over Him.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-12-2011 at 06:12 PM.

  4. #132
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    Lord_jag is offline I am God because I say I am. Prove me wrong.
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    As I've said, I believe we're collateral damage.

    I believe humans have a natural tendency to shy away from the presence of God.
    Is this the same way you believe your prediction that Isreal will be destroyed last month?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    That's fine for you. My world is different.
    Oh it most certainly is much much different than reality...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I am certain of what I know about God.
    Again is that the same certainty you had about your prediction that Isreal will be destroyed last month?
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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