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  1. #1
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    The Erosion of Religion

    What do you think is causing the erosion of religion over the past few decades?


    I personally think it's because people can't stand being lied too.

    I don't mean about the religion itself. I don't think people like being lied to about anything else.

    For instance many of preacher has made strong spirited claims about evolution and what other people think. Leading to strong spirited members of the church repeating these statments only to look the like a fool when they run into someone that actually knows something on the topic or to feel the fool when the look it up themselves.


    People don't like being lied to and at some point they have to ask what else were they lied to about and why.

    What do you think is causing the erosion of religion over the past few decades?

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    What do you think is causing the erosion of religion over the past few decades?
    Why........evolution, of course. Everything 3volves, mostly people's thinking, and so religions. As you probably know, most things 3volve too slow for the human being to observe in his rather short lifespan. Religion isn't one of those things, though. On a "cosmic" scale, religion is 3volving at a super-fast rate.

    For instance, look at the difference between the Catholic Church in the 1200s and now. Back then they would draw-and-quarter you for the very thought that you "might" be a witch. Now, they tell you to say three "Our Fathers" and three "Hail Marys" for confessing to rape. I feel that there will always be those who take refuge in their "supernatural" beliefs....the ones that they know violate the known laws of reality, yet they just cannot bring themselves to put them down.

    The quest for personal security is very strongly linked to the need for love. Religion offers a "veneer facsimile" of both...the only price is giving up your free thought.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 11-21-2011 at 09:02 AM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Spector567 View Post
    What do you think is causing the erosion of religion over the past few decades?


    I personally think it's because people can't stand being lied too.

    I don't mean about the religion itself. I don't think people like being lied to about anything else.

    For instance many of preacher has made strong spirited claims about evolution and what other people think. Leading to strong spirited members of the church repeating these statments only to look the like a fool when they run into someone that actually knows something on the topic or to feel the fool when the look it up themselves.


    People don't like being lied to and at some point they have to ask what else were they lied to about and why.

    What do you think is causing the erosion of religion over the past few decades?

    The explosion of Science and knowledge has eroded the influence of religion. Moreover, the experiential content of religion is missing. After the brutal murder of Jesus, the Lord God has been absent from the world.

    God intervened in history for a relatively short time. During that period when the Lord communicated with His chosen people miraculous events happened. Now, there are only memories of God (the Bible based mostly on the Old Testament and Revelation). Believers can't find God, so they rely on superstition and false dogma.

    Evangelist come and go, cults explode and then die on false hopes, believers become optimistic and then find churches without God. Worst of all, preachers are unable to fulfill promises. Without God, religion has become a stage where smoke an mirrors substitute for God's divine presence.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    God is in control. Jesus is on the Throne.
    Satan needs permission form God to do his bidding. And God will send the Strong Delusion.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    1st Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some (Christians) shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;



    The Coming Great Deception
    In his second letter to the Thessalonians, a church that was eagerly awaiting the return of the Lord to establish His Kingdom on earth, Paul outlined a few events that will come to pass before "the day of the Lord" arrives. The day of the Lord is a general term pointing to an entire series of events that culminate with the Lord Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives and taking up the throne of David in Jerusalem. He says in II Thessalonians 2:1-4 that two things must happen -- a great falling away, and the revelation of the antichrist, or man of sin. He goes on to discuss this pivotal character in end time history, and then starting in verse 10 Paul introduces the theme of end-time delusion. There are constant reminders throughout the New Testament, from the teachings of Jesus Himself to the writings of Paul, John, Peter, James, and Jude, that indicate that the end times will be times of great delusion and deception. These warnings are specifically directed at "the elect" that they might not also be carried away with the "strong delusion" that God will send expressly for the purpose of separating true believers in Him from those who "have not a love of the truth."

    For a more detailed discussion of each of these themes, click on the contents buttons on this page. To fully comprehend where we are in God's divine time line, click on the link to Letters to the Seven Churches to discover how perfectly the Lord knew what would transpire in His church following His ascension, up until His return at the end of the age.

    The Great Falling Away

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed... (II Thessalonians 2:1,2)
    There are some things in the Bible that are hard to understand or which are generally open to interpretation. But there are some things that are all too clear. One of these things that should be without debate is that the Second of Coming of Christ will not occur until after something Paul calls a falling away happens first.

    Having settled that, we can think about, discuss, and pray about what that falling away might mean, and what the fulfillment of this prophecy might look like.

    There are those who equate the falling away with the Rapture, or the catching up of the Lord's people to meet Him in the air (I Thessalonians 4:17). They see the Body of Christ "falling away" from the earth as the Lord miraculously draws them up to be with Him in the air.

    This interpretation does not take into account that the Greek word translated "falling away" is the word "apostasia," the basis for the English word apostasy. If you're not familiar with the word apostasy and what it means, you can look it up in any dictionary. It is the act of going back on the faith. It is a denying of the basic tenets of the faith one once held. It is the basic characteristic of all "recognized" Christian scholarship at the seminary level for the last 100 years. Liberalism and modernism, two popular terms for apostasy that apostates find less objectionable, infected the mainline denominations before the end of the 19th Century. Liberal theology denies the existence of miracles, including the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Resurrection, and even the inspiration of the Bible. Some liberal "theologians" have gone as far as to doubt the very existence of God, or to suggest that God is dead.

    Given all that, there are those who equate the falling away predicted by Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians with the general apostasy that has taken over mainline Christianity, including most recognized theologians of both Protestant and Roman Catholic institutions.

    While this apostasy may be a precursor, it is also likely that just prior to the Second Coming, there will another major and recognizable departure from the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3). It is not unlikely that such a falling away would result in persecution of the true believers who refuse to follow the scholars and recognized Christian leaders in their retreat from true, Biblical Christianity. In fact, it is likely that it is just this sort of persecution that is instrumental in creating the unity among the true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ that will result in the Bride overcoming the division that currently prevents her from coming together as one chaste virgin to meet her Bridegroom King.

    At any rate, we can expect to see more liberalism and more modernism, also referred to as Liberation theology or the social gospel, continue to invade and take over more mainline Christian institutions and denominations. We can also expect to see true Bible believing Christians come under more and more criticism and pressure to comply with the form of Christianity that will be promulgated by the media, the press, and the United Nations. It will be ecumenical, multicultural, tolerant of other faiths and religions, and quite conceivably enforced at gunpoint or through other coercive means.

    Before you say this is not a possibility in our lifetime, take a look at the restrictions that "someone" is trying to place on the preaching and teaching of Biblical truth today. Laws are being passed that will make it "illegal" to teach the Biblical view when it comes to such issues as abortion and homosexuality. At some point soon, many churches may be forced to make a decision between remaining free to preach the truth, or maintaining a tax exempt status. And this is just the tip of the iceberg and a shadow of things to come over the next decade.

    Great time to be alive...

    We are blessed to be alive at such a momentous time in history. We are witnessing the unraveling and disintegration of Western civilization. Even if we were not destined to live on to see the establishment of God's own Kingdom on the earth, this would be an exciting time to be alive, historically speaking, just to see what sort of order will come about following the collapse of the preeminent social, governmental, financial, and technological establishments in the post-modern world (that is, Western civilization, technology, and its attendant culture).

    The Holy Scriptures foretell that the current social, political, financial and governmental systems will be brought under the control of one great authoritarian, totalitarian dictator. At some point, this seemingly benevolent dictator will become personally indwelt by Satan himself, the great enemy of God, and will bring havoc down on the heads of God's people -- whether Israel or the church, or both -- until God Himself removes him from the scene. It is then that God establishes His own Kingdom, with Israel serving as the planet's political focal point, and each of 12 Gentile nations serving as tributary to a tribe of Israel, and appearing before the King once each year for a thousand years. (Deuteronomy 32:8, Revelation 21:24 with Revelation 22:2)

    Now the down side... Not many who are alive now will live to see this glorious event, although it is in most likelihood less than 20 to 30 years down the road. Scripture indicates that the current world population of some six billion souls will be drastically reduced to possibly less than one billion by the time the Lord returns. That is a lot of death and carnage in the space of just a few decades.

    But the Falling Away is only one of the signs Paul wrote about. In addition to a general apostasy, there will also be the revealing of the man of sin.

    That Man of Sin shall be revealed...

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed... (II Thessalonians 2:1,2)
    Outside of the Lord Jesus and the Lord God Himself, there is more written in the Bible about the one who is coming as the Man of Sin than any other person in the Bible.

    He is called the "antichrist" by John (I John 2:18, 22 and 4:3), the "little horn" and the "prince that shall come" by Daniel (Daniel 7:8 and 8:9; Daniel 9:26). He is the "idol shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17. According to the Book of Revelation, where he is called "the Beast" (Revelation 13:1), he will be a much admired world leader (Revelation 13:3) and exercise incredible authority over the Western hemisphere. It is for this reason that he is often referred to as the coming "one-world leader." The fact of the matter is, however, that he never succeeds in uniting the world entirely. He institutes an economic system involving personal identification numbers (Revelation 13:18) that is used all over the world, just as credit cards are now used all over the world. It appears, however, that the "kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) are not under his political or military control and contest his authority in the mid-East, where he has engineered a seven year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies that results in the rebuilding of the Temple and the restoration of Israel's sacrifices to the Lord.

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)

    It is not clear exactly why, but for some reason this man decides to abrogate the treaty he has made between Israel and her neighbors half way through the term of the treaty, or 3 1/2 years after its signing. At that time he will enter the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and sit himself down in the mercy seat of the Most High God and he will declare that there is no higher God in the universe then himself. He will then demand that all the people of the earth, or at least all the people under his control, worship him as God under pain of death.

    According to Daniel 9, this event marks the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years of the "times of the Gentiles." At the end of that time, the Lord Jesus Christ will return to the earth and to Jerusalem where He will fulfill the Old Testament promises to Israel that Zion shall never be without a descendent of David to rule as King. All human endeavor on the planet will come under the direct control and supervision of Jesus, who is God in the flesh, and those who were faithful to Him and His promises during the current age (the church age) will "live and reign with him" (Revelation 20:4).

    God shall send them strong delusion...

    And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luke 21:8

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie... II Thessalonians 2:11

    ...thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked... Revelation 3:17

    One of the great characteristics of the end times is described in the New Testament as deception, or delusion, on a grand, perhaps unprecedented scale. The Lord Jesus warned that the deception that is coming in His Name and accompanied by great shows of power will be so convincing that even the very elect, that is, those who truly know Him, stand in danger of being carried away in the deception (Matthew 24:24).

    Paul expounds on the same theme. In discussing the end time delusion that will accompany the world's acceptance of Satan himself as the savior of the world, he points out that when this "man of sin" arrives on the scene, he will be accompanied by great signs and wonders (II Thessalonians 2:9). When taken together with the Lord's prediction in Matthew 24, there is no reason to believe that this entrance by Satan on the world stage will be accompanied by anything less than healing, casting out of demons, and raising the dead in the name of Jesus!

    Such a scenario might have seemed impossible a decade or so ago, but with the acceptance by the world of some of the current popular beliefs, it is not difficult to imagine that such total, world-wide delusion could take place. Much of the "church" seems to be obsessed with the subject of "signs and wonders," healing, and the "greater works," totally beyond the scope of what one would expect from a reading of the New Testament. This "signs and wonders" fixation may be nothing less than a set-up to prepare the way for the one "whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders..."

    Remember, the world believes that Israel is an imposter in the Holy Land and is "occupying" "Palestinian" territory! The world also believes that there can be peace outside of submission to God and His authority. All of this is, of course, purely delusional. The fact of the matter is that God has given Israel to the Jews with an oath and a promise that cannot be broken. It is also true that the world will know no peace until the Prince of Peace returns and takes up His rule from David's throne in Jerusalem. Anyone who has read and believed the Bible knows these things, but the world does not know these things. As Peter says, they don't even know how the world got here because they have willingly chosen not to know (II Peter 3:1). Therefore, it should not be surprising to learn that it will be those who had NOT a love of the TRUTH who will be swept away in the great delusion that God is sending for the purpose of separating the tares from the wheat just prior to the great end-time harvest (Revelation 16:14-20).

    How can one escape being swept away in the deception that is coming? According to the letter from Jesus to the end-time church, Laodicea, recorded by John in Revelation 3:14-22, that church is characterized by self-deception, believing that it is the greatest of all churches when in the Lord's view it is one of the poorest and most wretched. But in this letter we are also given some keys to avoiding such pitfalls. It is apparent, if we recognize that Laodicea is a depiction of the end-time Charismatic movement that has prided itself in having more gifts, more power, more gospel (FULL gospel, REALLY!), more ministry (five-fold, don't you know), and more health and prosperity than any of the other churches around (especially the "poor" Fundamentalist brethren whom Jesus praised "to high heaven" in His letter to the church at Philadelphia), that we should not be so desirous of a great show, and should look to our own hearts and devotion to the Lord, and to His Truth.

    Cable-channel Christianity by any other name is still a show. It is great entertainment for spiritual "shut ins," but it is not the stuff the New Testament church is made of.

    As the Bride of Christ matures and begins to step forth and out of the backdrop of traditional, denominational Christianity, there will also be a movement based on great deception to try to deceive the elect and cause them to seek after and follow something other than Christ. The only real protection the Bride will have will come in the form of an intimate knowledge of her True Beloved. It is important for all believers to begin to seek the face of the Lord now, and to draw close to Him and press into Him so that they learn to recognize His voice. The day is soon coming when there will be many rival voices (Matthew 24:5) clamoring for the Bride's attention -- but she will respond to only one, the voice of her Beloved (Song of Solomon 2:8 and 5:2).
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    ...bacause you'll believe anything.

    Got any proof of you god?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    ...bacause you'll believe anything.

    Got any proof of you god?
    Ask him for proof for a natural science explanation for the universe to refute God.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Ask him for proof for a natural science explanation for the universe to refute God.
    You already have that information....only you, Cnance, would fail to believe it, since it eviscerates your premise of your god of the bible creating the universe. Your postulation has been refuted.....

    http://scam.com/showpost.php?p=1098496&postcount=161

    Vacuum fluctuations have been shown to cause the creation of matter, NOT the god of the bible. You can only refute this "vacuum fluctuation" premise by showing where in your bible it says that your god has created "nothing."
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    You already have that information....only you, Cnance, would fail to believe it, since it eviscerates your premise of your god of the bible creating the universe. Your postulation has been refuted.....

    http://scam.com/showpost.php?p=1098496&postcount=161

    Vacuum fluctuations have been shown to cause the creation of matter, NOT the god of the bible. You can only refute this "vacuum fluctuation" premise by showing where in your bible it says that your god has created "nothing."

    Okay Wizard of Oz, where did those vacuum fluctuations come from? The old chicken and egg argument never goes away.

    You never closed the book on this discussion! Remember, we require authentic science, not goof ball or pseudo scientific claims. I am not a scientist, but I respect the peer review process that legitimizes scientific discoveries.
    Last edited by Cnance; 11-22-2011 at 08:55 AM.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    God is in control.
    But ONLY in your mind, and the minds of all those who wish to allow this emotional fixation to rule their psuedo "thinking."

    Satan needs permission form God to do his bidding.
    He is in the same class of delusional "beings" that your god is.....another emotional "charge."

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    Uhhh......is that why you believe what you believe..... as far as the bible and it's biblical "god?" If you read it aloud to yourself, you cannot help but feel the "delusions" brimming over in it's perplexing, contradictory words and meanings. I personally think that you've lived this for so long that any semblance of REAL, factual truth that entered into your life wouldn't stand a chance...
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Okay Wizard of Oz, where did those vacuum fluctuations come from?
    Like I stated earlier.... they come from nothing. You must show in your bible just where it states that your god created "nothing." Otherwise its been proved that something can indeed, come from nothing.
    Here is that peer-reviewed paper on vacuum fluctuations that I offered on the related post "An explanation of "something" from "nothing," #161, and how they cause matter to be created from vacuum fluctuations (nothing.) This paper was finished in 2003 by a qualified, well-respected scientist.
    http://www.msel-naschie.com/pdf/7.Th...pontaneous.pdf



    You never closed the book on this discussion!
    Why.....you reopened the discussion with this post to Paladine.

    Cnance stated to Paladine: Ask him ( LogicallyYours) for proof for a natural science explanation for the universe to refute God.
    Remember, we require authentic science, not goof ball or pseudo scientific claims. I am not a scientist, but I respect the peer review process that legitimizes scientific discoveries.
    Oh you of such short memory...."you RESPECT the peer-review process that legitimizes scientific discoveries," right??? I'd be willing to wager that you won't respect this peer-reviewed paper.
    This gentleman IS a peer-reviewed, legitimate scientist who has, indeed, submitted this paper and it can be seen on the reviewing website posted here:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...60077903000985
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 11-22-2011 at 09:17 AM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Like I stated earlier.... they come from nothing. You must show in your bible just where it states that your god created "nothing." Otherwise its been proved that something can indeed, come from nothing.
    Here is that peer-reviewed paper on vacuum fluctuations that I offered on the related post "An explanation of "something" from "nothing," #161, and how they cause matter to be created from vacuum fluctuations (nothing.) This paper was finished in 2003 by a qualified, well-respected scientist.
    http://www.msel-naschie.com/pdf/7.Th...pontaneous.pdf



    Why.....you reopened the discussion with this post to Paladine.

    Oh you of such short memory...."you RESPECT the peer-review process that legitimizes scientific discoveries," right??? I'd be willing to wager that you won't respect this peer-reviewed paper.
    This gentleman IS a peer-reviewed, legitimate scientist who has, indeed, submitted this paper and it can be seen on the reviewing website posted here:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...60077903000985
    Good try, but no lollipop.

    I read the article and it doesn't claim to break any new ground with respect to our question. Furthermore, it doesn't even claim to address the question. We are back to the old chicken and egg dilemma. Where did those conditions or particles of vacuum fluctuation derive from? We can lump these particle studies into the category of "small matter makes contact." How can you possible leap from there to a hypothesis of something coming from nothing?

    As long as there is a precondition with virtual particles to measure, we have a process of something. When science proves a particle of matter emerges from nothing without preconditions or a previous state, we have a smoking gun. When that happens I am certain we'll see rockets exploding in the sky as scientists celebrate.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Good try, but no lollipop.

    I read the article and it doesn't claim to break any new ground with respect to our question. Furthermore, it doesn't even claim to address the question. We are back to the old chicken and egg dilemma. Where did those conditions or particles of vacuum fluctuation derive from? We can lump these particle studies into the category of "small matter makes contact." How can you possible leap from there to a hypothesis of something coming from nothing?

    As long as there is a precondition with virtual particles to measure, we have a process of something. When science proves a particle of matter emerges from nothing without preconditions or a previous state, we have a smoking gun. When that happens I am certain we'll see rockets exploding in the sky as scientists celebrate.

    Classic "god of the Gaps" argument.

    Who created god?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Classic "god of the Gaps" argument.

    Who created god?

    That is really a stupid rebuttal. What gaps? Either you have the answer or you don't! Excuses or comments unrelated to the question don't count.

    God is eternal therefore He did not precede himself. I know that it is a difficult concept for you to digest. Give it some time. If you have problems, I'll explain it to you.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    I read the article and it doesn't claim to break any new ground with respect to our question.
    It does what it needs to do....it refutes a god of the bible scenario, since you still haven't shown where in the bible it states that your god built "nothing"...in order for "nothing" (vacuum fluctuations) to give rise to "something"....apparently you're having a problem coming up with a biblical passage showing that god created nothing. Your premise' "legs" have been cut off, and it shows.....that is, until you get over this gap of showing that your biblical god constructed "nothing." Please don't prove to everyone that you're dishonest with your non-answers and evasions again, as in the past.

    Where did those conditions or particles of vacuum fluctuation derive from?
    Science has yet to explain this portion of the scenario. Com'on Cnance....tell us god created nothing in order for matter to come into existence. (With adequate proofs, which negate mine, shown above.)

    How can you possible leap from there to a hypothesis of something coming from nothing?
    "Quantum" nothing, Cnance. This is an entirely different nothing than what you are accustomed to....vacuum fluctuation "particles" are not some "thing"...they are representations.....VIRTUAL...
    Definition of virtual: Existing or resulting in essence or effect though not in actual fact, form, or name.
    As long as there is a precondition with virtual particles to measure, we have a process of something.
    The "precondition" in this case is quantum nothing. These virtual particles cannot be observed......they can only be detected by their interactions. The word "something" denotes the rigidness of a "thing," of which these "virtuals" are not a thing.

    When science proves a particle of matter emerges from nothing without preconditions or a previous state, we have a smoking gun.
    We have.....you just refuse to acknowledge that a successful experiment was performed, creating matter out of quantum vacuum only.

    http://scienceblog.com/40901/theoret...om-the-vacuum/


    http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...onjured-vacuum
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 11-22-2011 at 04:54 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    LogicallyYours is offline Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    That is really a stupid rebuttal. What gaps? Either you have the answer or you don't! Excuses or comments unrelated to the question don't count.
    Really???...It has direct bearing on your position. (or lack of an actual position)

    god made man. Wrong. Man is a product of Evolution.

    god made the sun, the moon and the stars. Wrong. The universe is a product of expansion from a singularity.

    god made all creatures at the same time. Wrong. The fossil record proves life forms appeared and disappeared a many different times throughout the history of the world.

    god got tweaked and flooded the world. Wrong. There is no evidence of a global flood....and evidence to the contrary is reflected in the geological column.

    So now, after all the other mysteries have been solved, you god now lives in Origins. That is, until that is completely resolved.

    God is eternal therefore He did not precede himself. I know that it is a difficult concept for you to digest. Give it some time. If you have problems, I'll explain it to you.
    How can god be eternal?...how can god conjure himself into existence? How could god create himself unless he was already there to create himself?...Are you too stupid to work your way through that one?

    You can't explain it to me because I know Grade A Bullshit when I see it....and I see it in everyone of your posts.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: The Erosion of Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Really???...It has direct bearing on your position. (or lack of an actual position)


    How can god be eternal?...how can god conjure himself into existence? How could god create himself unless he was already there to create himself?...Are you too stupid to work your way through that one?

    You can't explain it to me because I know Grade A Bullshit when I see it....and I see it in everyone of your posts.
    Your Tardness comes from not understanding the bigger picture here. This life is not what was intended, it is a rift in space/time a nightmare that will end, but it is part of your On the Job Training for eternity. Don't blow it by getting hung up on this present dimension it is going to end because in a sense it is not real. A new heaven and earth awaits. Understand that and the special purpose God has for you forever and maybe you will begin to be healed from the anger and delusions.


    God had to put mankind into a linear existence as a 'holding pattern' so he (man) cannot become eternally stuck in this lesser state. The circle and the line. 2 dimensions existing; one eternal, one linear, Heaven and Earth, So then, joy comes when knowing this linear existence is a blessing in disguise, even though we are now made to suffer, only for a while until God repaired the damage done through Jesus and restored us back to our God given original existence.

    God came down and suffered and was rejected and beaten worse than any other man. He did this for you. When He was dying on the cross, imagine if you can, every hurt, anger, fear and negative feeling from the result of sin you ever felt in your whole life time is a lot. Now multiply that by everyone who ever lived and will live all that sin entered Jesus the moment He asked God the Father why he left him for that small moment in time.

    At that moment God the Father could not be in the presence of sin He turned his back on the Son. Jesus became the sacrificial lamb, all of that sin came rushing into his heart and mind. It blew his heart apart and he paid the price and repaired the paradox that was created in Eden. He did this for you because He thought you were worth it so you could spend eternity with him as more than a blind follower but one who overcame through him to be co-ruler with him forever.

    This mortal life we call reality is only an illusion that will end, our true life is with God in eternity if we are truly his. That decision to respond to his love is left up to us. There are two seeds not based on race or anything other than are we His or p[art of an imitation manipulated by Satan. Sheep and Goats, wheat or tares is what the Bible alludes to. If you are his you will respond to his love and return where you belong with him.


    We are not being punished by anyone or anything. We are the cause and effect result of this wrong choice. Like natural laws there are spiritual laws. Jesus is the expressed fleshly image of the invisible God who became one of us but without this sin nature so he could do what we could not do ourselves. He was the sacrifice to fix it all. He is the only way out of this matrix. You are not punished but you can be set free.

    I hope you will build a firm foundation against the things to come and overflow to be a refuge for many others. May God raise you up.

    Video and quote below explain the concept of linear and eternal time

    Eccl 3:15 “ That which is has already been, and what is to be has already been; and God requires an account of what is past.”




    What are the Clouds of Heaven?

    The common Christian attitude: So who cares?

    To the Christian this has never been much of a concern or a matter to ponder and debate. Once touched by God’s love, most believers are content to accept the idea of a fluffy chunk of water vapor as being the clouds of heaven. Daily living and Biblical principles needed to develop a transforming personal relationship with Christ, become the main concern. For oneself, this should be the foremost concern. But what about the ability to give an answer for the hope that is within to others? When asked, “What are the clouds of Heaven?” the official Christians response of most are; “ fluffy chunks of water vapor”, or “I dunno, I never really thought about it.” A person of faith can accept this concept, no matter how illogical it may seem. However, to someone standing outside of faith to a personal God, this can sound pretty lame.

    Spaceships of the gods? 1703 painting Baptism of Jesus

    An idea to be reckoned with is that these clouds of heaven are spacecraft from other worlds. As strange as this might sound, it is well presented and becoming widely accepted. It is explained that Ancient people, being ignorant of mechanical technology had miss-identified the vehicles and occupants as angels and gods. Books written with this idea, two by “Christian” ministers, are very convincing. Without any other information, it would seem the only logical conclusion for an open-minded person of today. The danger of this conclusion is, that there is no personal God, only aliens in spacecraft. The lack of an intelligent response from the church only adds to the credibility of this idea. Can the Bible provide us with a better answer? Or are we left with a fluffy chunk of water vapor?

    Rules of Engagement (Bible interpretation)

    The problem with Biblical presentations of this subject are improper use of scripture to prove a point. There is much more to understanding the Bible than just surface reading and pulling things out that you want or like. We are separated by several thousand years from an ancient culture that used now dead or *****ed languages foreign to us. Because of this it is necessary to get into a deeper study to find truth.

    Minister or layperson, certain rules apply when determining what is being said in the Bible. Any serious student when approaching the Bible (from an Evangelical/Fundamental background) learns several things about interpretation. It is not from one’s own personal skill, intellect, or perception to interpret the Bible. God in His mercy has not left that kind of confusion on our heads. We are told that the Bible will always interpret itself by itself. 2 Pet 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” In this I mean that you cannot take a scripture out of it’s context, cafeteria style and make it say what you want it to say. You must study the context it came in, who is speaking to whom and under what condition. You may need to know the culture, expressions and historical background. A word study is important to see the pattern of consistency in word use. To completely understand a subject or event a topical study examining all passages related is necessary. This is also necessary in determining a symbolic, literal or figurative meaning.

    It is a myth that evangelical Christians only follow a literal interpretation because they are simple- minded, led by blind faith. Serious study requires time and effort to let this process speak on it’s own without preconceptions. Computer programs and reference materials have made this easy for the average, serious student to achieve. But the above practices must be applied to get an accurate understanding.

    Biblical Clouds of Heaven

    Clouds of heaven are described in many passages as being the form from which God’s presence radiated a shekinah glory. This cloud was God’s abode in the Old Testament. The cloud was over the Ark of the Covenant and appeared over the temples signifying God’s presence within. It appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai and was before the children of Israel day and night leading them through the wilderness.

    There were also clouds of heaven associated with Angelic visitations. These were objects that anyone left or entered Earth from. Elijah’s ascension on a fiery chariot, Jacob’s ladder with angels climbing down, even Jesus’ ascension and promised return in the same manner was described as clouds. Num. 9:15, Num. 14:14, 2 Chron. 5:13, Isa. 19:1, Isa. 25:5, Ps. 104:3, Dan. 7:13, Mat. 24:30, 1 Thess. 4:17, Acts 1:9. In all of these texts the description and characteristics clearly show much more than a fluffy chunk of water vapory-cumulonimbus cloud.

    Ezekial’s wheels describe uncharacteristic details of something more than just a cloud. Within the UFO community this is the most often used text to prove nut and bolt UFOs were in fact the clouds of heaven. Much of Ezekial’s experience included symbolic imagery. However, it was a literal event. Because of this symbolism the whole experience is seen as just a vision. Visions that are symbolic and aren’t intended to be a literal story will never include names of people or specific geographical locations. When we do find names in context, it is telling us that this is literal.

    While I agree with UFO researchers who make the point that this is an actual event, you cannot exclude the rest of the story that defines just what Ezekial saw. His conclusion in context is this,

    “ This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel, by the river Chabir; and I knew that they were the Cherubims.” Ezek.10:20

    What Ezekial saw he identified as a living creature. Was he just a primitive mis-identifying technology as something alive? By his certainty this was something he was already familiar with. He identified this living creature as Cherubim, an order of Angelic being. I believe Ezekiel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was impressed to include this important fact. This would require a further topical study of the clouds of heaven. If this is some kind of Biblical fact there would have to be other scriptures that confirm this.

    More Clouds: A living chariot of God

    In these next few scriptures you will see a pattern of word usage that is self- explanatory even on the surface!

    Isa 19:1 The Lord rides upon a swift cloud... Ps 18:10"...and he (God) rides upon a cherub, and did fly, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.” 2 Sam 22:11 “...and he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and was seen upon the wings of the wind.”

    You can see that between these three scriptures we have the interchangeable use of clouds and Cherub. Being one in the same they are what the Lord “rides upon.” All Christian commentaries that I have ever come across declare that this riding is in a figurative sense. In their minds, this vehicle is not a means of transportation, but the physical action of accomplishing God’s will through Angels. That argument would have some ground to stand on, except we have another scripture that clarifies just what kind of vehicle He is using.

    Ps 104:3 “Who makes the clouds his chariot: who walks upon the wings of the wind”.

    In no uncertain terms the clouds are something to be ridden upon. In the Greek chariot means, “to be ridden upon.” There is no other variation for this word. This is to be taken literally and not figuratively.

    Wings of the Wind: Anti-gravity flight?

    A possible method of flight is alluded to by the continual mention of the “wings of the wind.” The most popular imagery of this text is of the wind catching something like an eagles wing into upward flight. However, we have a vivid description of the winds of heaven in the Ethiopic text of the Book of Enoch, called Enoch 1. I must cautiously warn that this book was not included in the cannon as one of the books of the Bible. Written in several styles, complete authorship is uncertain. This was probably the only reason it failed to measure up to the standard to be included as canonical literature. The Apostle Jude quoted in his Epistle, from the beginning of Enoch 1. (Jude14-16) This text was known in the time of Jesus and accepted as authentic by the Jews. This at least gives it historical credibility. With that said, if this is a connection to the Biblical mention of the wing’s of the wind, an amazing discovery can be understood!

    Enoch 18:1-7 “I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven. And I beheld the four winds occupying the height of heaven. Arising in the midst of heaven and of earth, and constituting the pillars of heaven. I saw the winds, which turn the sky, which cause the orb of the sun and of all the stars to set; and over the earth I saw the winds, which support the clouds. I SAW THE PATH OF THE ANGELS.

    The winds Enoch is describing are not just meteorological results of weather patterns. He is talking about the power of Gravity! The force which holds everything in place and directs movement! That movement of light that creates time! He continues to include that this same force supports the clouds, and the path of the Angels. This is the applied power of gravity in some manner (anti-gravity?) that creates the “pathway of the Angels.” This is an amazing and important definition for the “wings of the wind”. However, as it exists today, Enoch 1 is an extra-Biblical source. Physical evidence does seem to support this idea though.

    Interesting observations about all UFO sightings are the electro-magnetic disturbances experienced during a sighting. These same disturbances are experienced with Ghost apparitions and demonic encounters. The common denominator in all of this may be a biological function. One that somehow is related to electro-magnetic fields. BUFORIA, a British counterpart of America’s project Bluebook concluded in it’s findings that UFO’s had more in common with occult activity than it did with any extra-terrestrial origin. Their findings were based in part on these electro-magnetic disturbances.

    Good and Bad Ones

    In Satan’s fall some of the angelic orders joined with him in this rebellion against God. It would stand to reason that some of this Cherub/cloud order followed as well. Ancient Ugaritic texts refer to the god Baal as “a rider of the clouds” This is not to equate Baal with God but rather to compare a similar observation and understanding. This could explain why Satan is also described as the “prince and power of the air” (Eph2:2).





    Some UFO sightings have been said to look more like an organic living being such as the photo to the right seen in Mexico. Abductee Travis Walton testified that the craft his abductors had looked "alive".







    Where do the Living Clouds of Heaven travel To and From?

    Heaven and Earth Two different dimensions Imagery often depicted for "clouds"

    The Bible, explicitly teaches that “Heaven,” the dwelling place of God exists outside of our dimension. As Jesus stood before Pilate at his trial, he was asked if he were in fact a king and if he was, where was his kingdom?

    John 18:36 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:...”

    This was a baited question to trap Jesus into a confession of usurping the authorities of Rome and the Jews. His startling reply explains much more than what is on the surface. Many within the UFO community have used his reply to prove Jesus was an extraterrestrial. The Greek word for “world” means much more than just this globe called earth. The word used is Kosmos. Our English word Cosmos is derived from this. It literally means the entire ordered arrangement of this entire material universe! In this sense, it defines this complete dimension. Jesus’s reply was that His kingdom was not of this dimension!

    The Bible also explicitly teaches that “Heaven” the dwelling place of God exists outside of our sense of time. The conclusive evidence of this is found in,

    Eccl 3:15 “ That which is has already been, and what is to be has already been; and God requires an account of what is past.”

    In no uncertain terms, “Heaven” is truly outside of linear time. If God requires an account of everything that is past, from his dimensional perspective, everything is already history! It is why the prophecies in the Bible are 100% accurate and true. They are the recorded and completed history of mankind from the beginning to the end of time.

    To illustrate these two realities, imagine standing on a street corner watching a parade go by. One by one you see the various floats and bands go by until the end. Your reality is only what you see now, and what you remember passing by. Someone high above in a helicopter would be able to see the entire parade as one single event. From there He could lower himself into any part of the parade he desired. In a very real sense, this is how the Angels and God travel. It is not space and distance that is being traveled, but time as the separating factor from one dimension into the other.

    Linear Time: A condition of the “Fall” of Man

    In no uncertain terms the Bible defines time as a created illusion as a part of the “fall” of man. It was never intended for man to live in a linear existence. Man was to be eternal and live with God in eternity.

    Gen 3:22-23 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the TREE of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,...”

    In Genesis 2:9, the Hebrew word for tree has more of an emphasis on the wood from the tree, and not the actual tree itself. It also has a meaning of function to close or seal. In this sense the tree is more of a door or portal. The word for tree also has much in common with the Hebrew word for generations. It is how and why we get the idea of a “family tree.” This could indicate a progression of life in either dimension. From this perspective, the two trees of Genesis, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life could represent dimensional portals. Entrance would depend upon a decision of faith in God of self-reliance in man. The fruit, which the Bible never said was an apple, is the catalyst that transforms man, time and space into a mortal, linear existence. This was never the intention of God but the result of a wrong decision by man. Man was then sent away from the eternal dimension for his own safety, so that he would not be in this newly acquired fallen state forever. The final result is a parallel dimension bringing about the death of all things. I hope you are able to see from these few scriptures this dimensional difference between Heaven and earth.

    Space/Time Physics alluded to in the Bible?

    Now let's look at the scripture that I call my X-file Twilight zone scripture: This clincher is found in 2Samual 22:12 and repeated again in Psalms 18: 9-11

    Commentaries will tell you this is just a poetic way of describing the sight of God coming down from heaven to earth. I believe the Lord has shown me that this is to be taken very literal. More meaning can be drawn out from certain key Hebrew words. In this process a description of the mechanics and literal means by which God is coming down from heaven to earth can be established as a literal inter-dimensional traveling experience.

    2 Sam 22:10-12
    10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.
    11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
    12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.
    (KJV)

    Ps 18:9-11
    9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
    10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
    11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
    (KJV)

    Even in the modern translations like the NIV, this rendering in English is somewhat psychobabble.


    2 Sam 22:10-12
    10 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. A dense black secret b
    11 He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. We call a Black hole!
    12 He made darkness his canopy around him-- the dark rain clouds of the sky.
    (NIV)

    Ps 18:9-11

    9 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.
    10 He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind.`
    11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him-- the dark rain clouds of the sky. (NIV)






    In every other English translation the same surface reading is almost nonsensical. Many have said this was just a poetic description of God appearing from the heavens to earth and is further reflected in these assumptions in the newer translations. But, looking at the original Hebrew variations that can be used and applied here in proper contextual use, can give us a 21st century perspective of something very literal. Here is my rendering and explanation of this text of scripture as I believe the Lord described to me.

    The Hebrew word Natah for bowed, means to stretch out or thrust down into, it has the idea also of parting a way to enter through. It can be perceived as simply a portal or a bending of space!

    When accompanied with the idea of darkness under his feet, The Hebrew, araphel means a dark cloud or dense darkness, can allude to a black hole, which is dense and dark. Dark clouds combined with the comment under his feet, is describing a pathway or road, something to be traveled upon. A dark cloud carries water and that is something in transition , it is moving as a path or roadway under Gods feet. Dark clouds or rain clouds were the only thing that made sense at the time. The original language however means more of a stream. The illusion as a stream or something very dense and dark that is used as a pathway or road from a higher realm into a lower one also has the connotation as being a wrap around or circular covering. We would today, call this a wormhole or a jet stream! The rest of these words when considering the other variations confirms this train of thought. 2 Samuel 22:12 has key words, darkness, pavilions, round about him, dark waters and thick clouds could be telling us much more if we bring out the richness of the full intended meanings. These meaning however could only be brought out as we began to understand this kind of physics.



    I hope the above rendering will become clear as I show you how this comes together. It is God who decided to reveal himself as a “shekinah glory” from a temporary enclosure. This cloud is used while in transition as a binding. What is this binding? It is the bridging together of the two dimensions! In this sense it is like a portal or opening for His presence to “slip into” without being apart of this dimension. This covering or cloud travels in a circular enclosure like a stream (what we would now call a slipstream or wormhole) Man could not enter God’s presence before Christ. God the Father, could not be in the presence of sin. This cloud explains this transitional problem. Recent speculations by “fringe scientists” about space/time traveling in this way, is described as a warping or bending of the space / time continuum. This text of scripture could be revealing this kind of travel as a fact. And this covering or vehicle is a cloud, or as we have seen by other verses, an Angelic order of beings from the eternal realm. Simply the way God choose to travel! This gives a whole new meaning to "the anointed Cherub that covers"

    This Biblical response to Aliens in spacecraft, as strange as it may sound now, offers a better challenge to these lies than chunks of water vapor. As I hope I have shown, it is Biblical and it is TRUE!

    If this is true, does this take anything away from God’s supremacy?

    This does not take away God’s sovereignty. It only explains it. Much the same way a virgin birth can now be understood by artificial insemination. It does not take away from the fact that God himself became a man from His eternal dimension to undo the paradox created in the Garden, becoming the savior of all mankind at Calvary. Explained or not it still happened.

    The only thing that might be taken away is the unknown mystical magical perception that a small child may for his parents. As this child becomes an adult, he gains a mature understanding of his parents and the magic disappears. A trusting child would only be drawn into a deeper appreciation and love for his parents while a doubting or vain child would perhaps begin to think of himself as equal or even superior and therefore reject and rebel against his parents. The parent’s love has not changed only the child’s understanding of his parents. This is not to lower God to human parents but rather compare our reactions to understanding earthly parents to our Heavenly Father. In the same manner, as a society beginning to understand more about the Cosmos which might explain some of the Physics of God, how will we react toward God.? Disbelieve in his very existence? Will we rebel and think we can “be like God”, or as trusting child, will we grow deeper in our appreciation and love. Regardless of our view, His love has not changed.

    When we need to know

    God told the Prophet Daniel that many things he saw as visions would be concealed until near the end- time. Knowledge and travel would increase. (Daniel 12:4) This was the key element as to how the visions would become known. Science and technology has advanced to a point of grasping god-like qualities such as cloning and space/time travel. Our knowledge of the things of God needs to be known, to put into proper perspective these new concepts. In this time, a fresh look at the scriptures from this technological view would be vital. In this manner we are equipped from being deceived by a master plan from the enemy.

    Yes! a plan from the enemy.

    We have covered the biological entities called UFO’s but we have not addressed the Lying signs and wonders of the great deception. Nut and bolt man made UFO’s! They are also real!

    Lying Signs and Wonders:

    The Apostle Paul mentions in 2Thess2:7. a “Mystery of Iniquity” which is a plan carried out all through the history of mankind. This plan is mentioned by Satan himself in the famous Five I wills of Isaiah 14. This is a specific five-point plan to copy and overlay everything God would do, in the same but opposite fashion.

    One of the five points to this plan is in Verse 14,

    “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;”

    Another rendering of this text can read,

    “I will elevate myself above the glory of the clouds.”

    Understanding just what the clouds really are gives a whole new dimension to this verse! Defined by the Bible itself, we can now see more than the image of Satan simply rising into the sky to take on God.

    This is a plan to explain away and replace the very presence of God as He appeared in the clouds of heaven told in the scriptures. By replacing this biological entity with a mechanical nut and bolt UFO he replaces God’s glory with his own scenario of “Aliens” come to help Mankind into the “New Age” with a technology which man himself can understand and accomplish on his own..

    Consider this next scripture in context; it describes events surrounding the appearance of the Antichrist at the end times.

    II Th 2:9 “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”

    Signs and lying wonders as commented by one of the top Ancient Greek scholars of today, Spiros Zodhiates Th.D., states that, “ these two words do not refer to different classes of miracles, but to different qualities of the same miracle. Teras (wonders) is a miracle regarded as startling, imposing...frequently used elsewhere for STRANGE APPEARANCES IN THE HEAVENS. Semeion (sign) a “miracle with an ETHICAL END and purpose. They are valuable not so much for what they are as for what they indicate.”

    With this understanding we can expect strange appearances from the skies bearing an ethical or moral message. One that is contrary to the God of the Bible and points to the coming Antichrist!. I do not know of any other two fold event that could sound more like the sightings and reported messages of UFO’S and Aliens!

    Physics not Magic

    Rev 13:2 “ ... and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

    Modern man has made science his unquestionable religion.

    The subtlest form of power today would be that of Technology. But a technology obtained through occult practices. Now let’s take this out of conjecture and see if there are any scriptures that would indicate this.

    Jesus himself told us that in the last days prior to his return there would be certain events happening. One of them is the idea of the powers of heaven being shaken.

    Luke 21:26 “Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”

    Traditionally, this has been understood to be the mention of some “heavenly earthquake”. This misconception is probably based on miss- understanding the significance of the word shaken. In it’s most general use it means to agitate. However it also has a meaning according to Thayer’s as being “cast down from one’s (happy and secure) state. This understanding opens up a whole new dimension to the text. To add to this controversy, the word for powers means miraculous power. The miraculous powers of heaven are being displaced, lowered from heaven to earth! From a secure place to one of instability in the hands of mortal man. An actual earthquake, in context is both illogical and isolated from all other events. When viewing this instead, as a displacement of knowledge, it fits like a puzzle piece with the rest of the story.

    This rearrangement of heaven’s security and constant is mentioned in another place in the Bible

    “At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." Hebrews 12:26 (NIV)

    The writer of Hebrews reminds the reader about the importance of listening to God. In context he goes on to say that this time the Lord would not only shake the earth but heaven also. This “shaking up” would be in a very physical way. It would be a rearrangement of the very heavens, A result perhaps of an intrusion and disruption of the space-time continuum! By Satan imparting to man a physics of the eternal realm not meant for him in his fallen state, abuse would be the only outcome.

    This form of knowledge would be considered “secret” knowledge, which is the definition for the Occult. It may be why in the very end of all things a “New heaven and New earth are seen by John in the Revelation given by Jesus. Rev 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;”

    The Fallen Angels that interbred with the human race before the flood were further mentioned in the Book of Enoch 63:1 and 64:6, “These are the angels who have descended from heaven to earth, and have revealed secrets to the sons of men, and have seduced the sons of men to the commission of sin...A commandment has gone forth from the Lord against those who dwell on the earth., that their end may be; for they know every secret of the angels.”

    As it was in the days of Noah, so also shall be the coming of the Son of man be...

    If Fallen Angels came down and dwelt among humans, they would certainly want their cake and eat it too. Not too concerned about rule breaking, they would provide themselves with all the conveniences of home. These “secrets” would be the physics and technology that would make their stay on earth comfortable. When the great flood came upon the earth, it destroyed the entire world along with these secrets. Well...at least the ability to apply the technology was lost. The theories probably were not.

    Babel wasn’t just a tower.

    560 years after the flood, the next great act of rebellion happened. The Tower of Babel. Even with such a long period of time, people were still living to a ripe old age of about 600 years. The Babel event would have been only one generation from the pre-flood era. Babel was not about trying to climb up to pull God down from heaven. It was not a space program as Zecharia Sitchin claims.. It was about preserving what was remembered of the secrets of heaven, including how to travel it!

    In Daniel 8:23 a man would come who wouldunderstand a workable knowledge of the occult. His agenda would be to both restore the people, (the son’s of god) and the technology from before the flood. His group would become the prophesied ones by Amos who would “dig into hell, and climb into heaven. But that is another story. You can read about the Nazi developement of UFO's obtained through Occult means. You can also understand this connection with events that are already past history and fulfills what many are waiting for as future prophecy. It is truly beyond Science Fiction and even more amazing, scriptural!



    Conclusion to the “ Clouds of Heaven”.

    Well, we have seen conclusively by the Bible what God’s choice and method of traveling between the eternal into the linear dimension consists of. An order of angel that even other angels use as a vehicle. It sounds strange but it is what the Bible proclaims. This amazing perspective has logic and consistency to an over all story. It provides very relative answers for questions that need a sound Biblical answer for today. It has a proper breakdown and application according to all the rules of interpretation.

    The importance of knowing what the clouds of heaven are and are not, are told by the warnings in the Bible. There would be "Lying signs and wonders", in the form of manufactured technology. A craft created in part, to be an imitation that replaces the very presence and existence of God. " Fallen Angels in “disguise as " Aliens" bearing their contrary message of hope and promise of a "New Age" for mankind. The ultimate goal for Satan using the UFO is to be like God and be worshiped as God.

    Rev 13:8 “ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Fortunately, the Bible has given us more than just a fluffy chunk of water vapor to defend our faith.

    Could it really be all about TIME?

    This posting will be the brief synopsis of how time is a missing element and possible major factor to end time events which so far has gone undected by most. The entire content of this web-site describes the particular elements to this one story.

    * (Please be patient as this page is still under construction.)

    Our Present state of Existence

    The separation of God and Man is Sin in the spiritual sense but manifested on the physical plane as our concept of time. Eternal vs Linear.
    " That which is has already been, and what is to be has already been; and God requires an account of what is past." Eccl 3:15 (NKJ)

    The implication of this scripture is that everything in linear time from God's perspective is already history. God dwells outside of time and everything is already completed.

    Jesus confirmed this idea as he stood before Pilate at his trial. Jesus stated that,

    " my kingdom is not of this world".

    The Greek word Kosmos was used here for world and means the ordered arrangement of this entire material universe. In a 21st century perspective, he was saying his kingdom was not of this dimension!

    An Enemy with a Plan:

    Satan doesn’t want God’s Heaven (eternal state) He wants to be the Alpha and Omega of his own eternal state.

    The Ouroboros (serpent with his own tail in his mouth) signifies this desire.

    The Pentagram signifies a Five point Plan outlined in Isaiah 14 as to just who, where and how he will accomplish this!

    In The Garden of Eden:

    The Promise in Genesis 3

    And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Gen 3:15 (NIV)

    This text in Genesis 3 is the first prophecy in the Bible. It is describing the fact that from the human linage would come God incarnate to put an end to Satan and restoration to creation.

    The Genesis 6 deception:

    Fallen Angels, Giants and the Mighty Men of Renown

    The real reason for the flood of Noah’s world.

    Satan and his band of rebel angels take action found in Genesis 6 to contaminate the human blood line thereby making it impossible for God to come. He was only eight people away from success.

    Gen 6:1-5, 11-13

    1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,

    2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

    3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

    4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

    5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...

    11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

    12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

    13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (NKJ)

    Based on original language use, a more defined description can be made. Here is my rendering based on the full potential of the original Hebrew meanings.

    "And it came to pass as when mankind began to be plentiful upon the surface of the earth, and female descendants were born unto them, that the fallen angels revealed themselves as messengers and determined who had moral goodness, and took them as wives; the ones who were tested and judged to be excellent. My vital spirit in man shall determine with understanding and not remain concealed from the ancient times past to judge with understanding. For that he is also a created mortal body, yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years. There were (giants) fallen ones, mighty tyrants in the earth, and also after that, when the fallen angels had sexual intercourse with the female descendants of mankind, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty ones, strong and tyrannical, famous warriors which were concealed from times past, eternal yet men who were weakened and made mortal. And God saw that the wickedness was great in the earth and that every imagination, purpose and desire of his being was only evil everyday...The earth also was marred and ruined to decay before and behold, it was pulled down to ruin; for all the blood relations had been polluted in their own pathways upon the earth and God said to Noah, "The end of flesh is come before me: for the earth is filled with violence through them. And I will destroy them from the earth." Gen 6:1-5, 11-13. (UJWV)

    This gives us a vivid image of what really happened and one quite different than the image most people have. Traditionally most of us thought of evil and wickedness running wild and random as a total state of anarchy. I believe that in reality it was not so obvious. Evil is far more dangerous when it is made to look good and has science and logic added. This evil is not just merely committing acts of random violence. It includes man opposing the principles of faith in God as part of his social order into self-reliance and trust in "messengers" that had a new message and a new deal for mankind. This was a deception on a mass level never repeated until the end of times. The world before the flood became what many today desire to rebuild as the "New Age Utopia". As recorded in most cultural memories it was a "Golden Age of the god’s".

    Only the Bible tells us a different side to this same time as a horror. Now these "messengers" did not come to mankind looking like gray aliens. According to other scriptures they left their eternal position and body to mate. I am sure they came looking like a bunch Of Keven Sabo’s or Fabio’s or other desirable men. The woman would be flattered to believe they were "chosen" to produce the promised seed. These were not evil, ungodly women. The ones selected were the most likely candidates for the seed to come through. Satan not knowing the specifics would imitate the fulfillment of the first prophecy in Genesis 3 with a slight twisting of the truth to contaminate them all! These were morally chaste and perhaps religious people. However they made one mistake, they had unbelief of God’s true ways and His two prophets who warned of the deception. Enoch and Noah's warnings were not listened to, as the flatteries of these handsome men were desired more.

    A common mistake in thinking, is, "if the Angels sinned why was mankind punished also?" Satan cannot exercise any more power over man than what we give him. His power of influence is always by permission. This is why "aliens" though superior to us, do not just take us over today. They need our permission. They must make us desirous of what they are and have to offer. The old excuse, "The devil made me do it," does not work. That was the excuse Adam gave God; " the woman you gave me made me..." and Eve’’s excuse, "the serpent deceived me". Man is held accountable for his own actions and in this Genesis account man stands without excuse.

    God sent two prophets to warn mankind, but man refused, preferring to believe a lie rather than the truth. This preference was motivated by their own lusts for an easy comfortable and pliable way to do and have everything their way and put God’s permission upon it. This gave them a false hope and a false belief system that rapidly engulfed all of mankind. This system slowly and subtly led man from unbelief in God’s ways to a progression conformed into Satan’s desire that created a hell on earth. Such is the ways of the subtleties of sin and its progression upon a person, a family, a nation or an entire world. What gave mankind the desire and openness to re-evaluate everything they thought they knew and accept a different path? …Technology. The marvel of new ways to build, travel and other aids to ease daily living gave credibility to their message. It is only logical to understand that if fallen angels intermixed and lived with humans they would also desire the standard of living with its comforts and ease that they were accustomed to in their ternal state of living. That would mean they would bring with them the understanding and application of the physics of their realm to incorporate it into this realm. They would in turn teach and bring to man this same superior level of knowledge. Their offspring would grasp and understand things much quicker than normal humans, creating a pressure for all peoples to be a part of this new brain trust or lag behind as mere mortals. In this competitive manner, inclusion of the entire human race would take a very short time. It would be a matter of survival.

    From God’s point of view, this was a horror. Someone just gave his little child a loaded gun to play with. Abuse would be the only possible outcome in this distorted universe and our fallen state. The sense of morality from disobedience to God would continue to grow along with the technology. By this statement, I am not saying that the technology is bad in itself. It is man’s inability to utilize it properly that is in error. Especially when it comes packaged with a rebel philosophy opposed to God, it always leads to decadence. Although the Bible does not mention some of these specifics other historical literature does.


    Why Enoch 1?

    Added insight in The Book of Enoch

    As a Minister from a very conservative background, the mention of the book of Enoch usually creates cries of danger and warning for using an extra-biblical text. I must ask those concerned, how much research have you given to this book? There are four so called Enochian books floating around today. Three of them are good for wrapping up dead fish or lining a bird cage with as they are heretical books that include many concepts in conflict to the Old Testament which was and still is the standard for cannon. However the Ethiopic version called Enoch1 is quoted by Jude in his Epistle. This should make any skeptic realize that if God allowed this book to be quoted in the Bible, it must at least contain historical accuracy if nothing else. The canonical question not even being the issue. Many Pastors use Flavius Josephus’s "Antiquity of the Jews" book as an added source for historical background to many Biblical stories. With the same confidence of not breaching any barrier or crossing any lines of soundness, the Bioik of Enoch should be considered. With that being said, here are some few added insights to the world before the flood.

    The Fallen Angels that interbred with the human race before the flood were further mentioned in the Book of Enoch.

    "These are the angels who have descended from heaven to earth, and have revealed secrets to the sons of men, and have seduced the sons of men to the commission of sin...A commandment has gone forth from the Lord against those who dwell on the earth., that their end may be; for they know every secret of the angels." Enoch 63:1 and 64:6,

    These "secrets of the angels" are not magic incantations and mystical occult rituals but rather the physics and mechanics from the eternal realm being made known and applied on earth.

    The resulting flood destroys the people, society and garnered physics and technology gained by this heavenly/extraterrestrial intervention.

    Golden Age of the Gods = The Pre-Flood World

    In all cultures on all continents what we call Mythology or the "Golden Age of the Gods:, is in fact, the recorded history of the greatest corruption experienced by mankind! The same theme of the raping or co-habitation of human women by these "gods" are universal. Their bullying and fickle behavior are also remembered in these tales.

    The Tower of Babel

    The next Bible story describes the attempt of mankind to retain the physics and technology of the pre-flood worlds.

    Genesis 10:8-10, 11:1-9

    "And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the lord: Wherefore it was said, even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babal, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh in the land of Shinar...And the whole earth was of one language and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said to one another, go to; let us make brick for tone, and slime had they for mortar. And they said, Go to let us build us a city and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built. Now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down and there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."

    Lost But Not Forgotten: The Real Tower of Babel

    You can see there is more to this story with just a simple look at the surface of this scripture, The first clue to the seriousness of this story is in God’s response.:

    "...and this they begin to do: and now NOTHING will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." Gen 11:6

    This is a pretty awesome statement coming from God! He is saying that they will be able to do anything they imagine to do! Such a power would have to be more than the construction of a tower to climb into heaven. An act of such futility would only be laughed at. They would climb so high they would pass out from oxygen depletion, if they could even get that high.

    Remember that these are not primitive simple people. They were only one generation away from parents who lived in a world filled with amazing accomplishments. It was their parents that shared a society with the fallen angels and their offspring of Human/Angelic hybrids. These people developed more than a climbing program, or even Sitchen’s space program. This was something that would enable them to do anything they imagined. It was said that they were given secrets of heaven. There is only one idea that comes to my mind on this. Inter-dimensional travel or for the nervous, or Time Travel for the bold! Imagine if you could arrange or re-arrange anything, the way you want it. This kind of power would give you the false belief that you could be all present, all knowing and all-powerful. The most incredible thing is when you take a deeper look at a few words used in this text. They confirm this very thought!

    "This they begin to do." The Hebrew word Chalal is used here. It means to bore or pry open like a wedge in the sense of this being an act of polluting. There is no other way to look at this. They are actually trying to bore into or pry an opening into heaven! As we have already let the Bible conclude for us, Heaven and earth represent eternal and linear time. They are separated from each other as a result of the fall or sin. But the actual physical separation is one of time - linear verses eternal. It stands to reason that the travel they are trying to accomplish here is inter-dimensional. The language here would confirm this. To pry or wedge is to open a portal into the eternal realm.

    "Nothing will be restrained from them." The Hebrew word "Batsar" means secrets, mysteries or inaccessible things will no longer be restrained. This can only mean a breach in the space/time continuum. Zamam is used for imagined and means to plot or devise in a negative sense. "Tower" has a figurative meaning as anything high or lofty. In all Bibles the words "reached unto" is italicized. This is because there are no original words to represent them. This was only an assumption by the translators. Equally acceptable in this context is the fact that instead of " reaching unto" it could be "likened unto."

    The tower of Babel was actually the pinnacle of occult knowledge. Occult simply means secret knowledge. The tower represents the attempt to reassemble and maintain this "secret" knowledge which we now can understand as the physics and technology used before the flood. They were not able to apply this for themselves but by their active participation in preserving what they knew, a future generation and person would restore and apply this technology. Further evidence of this is indicated by their contingency plan.

    A Contingency Plan:

    The Babel builders had a generalized knowledge of the future, from their knowledge of the stars. They probably did not know the particulars. That is why they developed the contingency plan. This plan is indicated by the phrase, "let us make a name". The etymology (cultural and historical use of words) of the Hebrew word "shem" for name, says volumes to us. According to "Vine’s notes on Strong’s numbers", it is a memorial but it has the meaning also as something continual, with fame. Adding a slant that the root words give, it includes: "to set something in a conspicuous place, but to hint with a style of expression, marked by obscurity, a lofty or skyward sign". When you place this altogether you get an accurate picture of the meaning behind the mystery places all around the world!

    The Giza Pyramids, Stonehenge, The Gateway to the sun, Easter Island, all of these places and many more, are these memorials spoken of in the Scriptures. They are the contingency plan.

    Many "fringe" scientists and researchers, like Como, Hancock, West and Bouval have recently begun to understand and explain this skyward connection. They have pointed out a consistent pattern of a "sacred geometry" incorporated into the measurements and construction. There are also representations to the heavens representing a time before the Great Flood. Their anticipated scattering did happen and we see these resulting memorials scattered around the world today.

    Rebuilding the Pre-flood world in the Last Days.

    Technology Will Come From " Ancient Knowledge"

    "Is there anything of which it might be said, "See this is new" It has already been before in ancient times Ecclesiastes 1:10

    Understanding the above information as a continuation of one story, we can realize that there would be a person with a following and national idenity who's entire political platform would be occult based into bringing back this "golden Age of the God's. They wouold understand the encrypted knowledge contained in the mystery spots and try and put it all back together. Pursuing a mixtureof science and occult magik,this kind of departure from conventional scientific means would stand out and be esasily identified, or would it?

    The ability of this group to actually pursue such an unorthodox agenda is financed by an elite few as we shall see next. To any history buff this should sound familiar because this has already happened over fifty years ago!

    Satan provides a forbidden knowledge of a Physics from the eternal realm to mankind to accomplish His goal.

    Funded and supported by the world’s most rich and elite through Occult lodges and secret societies

    One Man understood how to put the pieces of Babel back together. In a two phase

    operation a clandestine takeover, leads to a final outward show of Battle at the center of the earth in Jerusalem.

    A setback becomes a spiritual awakening of a negative kind


    Finding the Center of the Axis Pole

    From Delphi in ancient Greece to the Norse ash tree Yagdrasil to the Sun Pole of the Sioux Indians, every culture once had a sacred place that it believed to be the symbolic center of the world. The supernatural was once believed to enter the world at its center, a sacred place often marked by what was known as a "navel stone". It was through this stone that an imaginary vertical line or axis ran, and this axis linked the material world with the mystical, spiritual world.

    Here access might be gained to other worlds, heaven, hell and the realms of spirits and the dead. The imaginary vertical line that runs through the center is often referred to as the cosmic axis. It is called this because it places the earth at the center of the cosmos with heaven above and the underworld below. The "sacred" center is commonly known by its Greek name omphalos, which means "navel of the world".

    To ancient peoples, locating the omphalos was essential to the creation of civilization, culture and religion because it helped separate the safe, human world from the dangerous world full of natural forces. To locate and mark the center of the earth, ancient peoples hoped to chart the natural world and even gain control of it. Medieval European cities often contained navel stones like the London stone, the stone of Tubingen Germany and the "blue stane" in St. Andrews Scotland, all representing the cosmic axis and center. In the Ancient Chinese book, Chou-li, the axis is described as "a magical place where opposites come together, time and space are wiped out; the four seasons merge and the opposing principles of yin and yang come into eternal harmony". Vortex patterns depicted as swirls are often carved into the navel stones. In all of this is the image of everything having the ability to come together including time and space! In the myth of this cosmic axis and the center of the earth, is there an encrypted knowledge of physics forbidden to fallen man? Fringe Science researchers, Bruce L. Cathie author of The ****** Grid and David Hatcher Childress author of Anti-Gravity and the World Grid are but two of many to proclaim that there is a magnetic grid like a screen covering the earth, which is a natural flow of magnetic ******. The intersections create a vortex of ****** that they say can be tapped into and utilized. Some have claimed that the mystery spots and ancient mysterious ruins from around the world are locations where these vortexes exist. This screen like covering might be alluded to in the scriptures in Ezk 28 as what Satan was given to provide and protect God's creation. This knowledge being a part of what he traded back to mankind so he could control creation! The same screen Enoch described as the pathways of the angles, the wing's of the wind.

    In the mind of the Antichrist following these occult traditions, could he understand some applied physics to eternalize this linear dimension into his own eternal state? Is there a certain date and time He must stand in this center to make this happen? Could this also be the reason the Nazis and their allies were called the AXIS POWERS? The catch phrase common to occultists is, "As above so below" which may also be Satan's battle cry and ultimate goal! More than just speculation this evidence reveals the importance of Israel and the location of Jerusalem and the temple mound. We can only begin to see this reality by going back to the scriptures to verify such a thing.

    The Bible Reveals the Center of the Earth!

    " This is Jerusalem, I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries round about her." Ezk 5:5

    It is quite clear that the Bible claims that the center of the earth terrestrially is in Jerusalem. In context we are not talking in any figurative sense but one of geography. An even further description and miracle helps to confirm this idea. 1Kings 11:36 states,

    "……Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."

    How literal could this statement be? In context he is describing the lineage of David and the promised line Jesus, as Messiah would come from. But there might be more to this in a physical way also!

    In the VHS tape, Globalism, Iron Mountain and UFOs, (Prophecy club, Topeka KS) Researcher/Pastor Norm Frantz reveals a Topographical map of Israel. On his map is an existing dot for the location of the temple mount, which is the location of the holy of holies, the central point of the entire temple in Jerusalem. He then places a transparency over the area with Hebrew writing on it. Part of this writing includes a dot as part of the letter. The entire inscription lines right up with the mountain ranges and the dot matching up with the temple location. The amazing thing is that the Hebrew writing is the name for God! This is no coincidence by any stretch of the imagination but it is a confirmation of ownership!

    Not only is Jerusalem the center of the world but a name of ownership has been placed upon it! When you understand these occult doctrines and contrast them to recent scientific speculations as well as these few key scriptures from the Bible, a clear plan of the Antichrist is revealed! However when we read Revelations 19 we can see how futile this attempt is!
    Last edited by Paladine; 11-22-2011 at 02:36 PM.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

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