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  1. #1
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    The OT Lord created the universe.

    Scientists agree the universe began with the big bang. They do not however know what caused it.

    Because we have a time line for matter, we can assume it had a beginning.

    Scientists have discovered how matter developed, but not where it came from.

    Either matter made itself or it was created. Because matter can't make itself, God created it.

  2. #2
    Harutsedo is offline Legitimate Scams Member User Rank
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Please use the word energy instead of matter. We know where matter came from.
    And as has been pointed out before, several times, your argument is invalid because it fails to consider alternate options. Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence', because matter is linked with time.

    This forum is for religion scams, not personal testaments.
    Last edited by Harutsedo; 07-01-2011 at 12:10 PM.

  3. 07-01-2011, 12:31 PM

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  4. #3
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Scientists agree the universe began with the big bang. They do not however know what caused it.

    Because we have a time line for matter, we can assume it had a beginning.

    Scientists have discovered how matter developed, but not where it came from.

    Either matter made itself or it was created. Because matter can't make itself, God created it.
    This is a textbook example of fallacious reasoning. The flaw is obvious, however. The assumption which the rest of the argument is based off of, is unsubstantiated. We can't assume it had a beginning based on the evidence, because there is not enough evidence available. And even so, there is still more possibilities than a) matter creating itself, or b) something creating it. It could've always been here, perhaps in some other form. Or it could've morphed or replicated itself by some as of yet unknown phenomenon. More possibilities exist also.

    Even if we prove that matter can't create itself, how do we know someone or something called "God" did it? Even after the first few leaps of logic, we still end up with a conclusion that has no logical explanation--that God made matter.
    There is not one woman on this planet capable of finishing an entire can of soda.

  5. #4
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post

    Either matter made itself or it was created. Because matter can't make itself, a giant pink blancmange created it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post

    Either matter made itself or it was created. Because matter can't make itself, zeus created it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post

    Either matter made itself or it was created. Because matter can't make itself, an interdimensional space alien created it.
    Feel free to explain why any of the above have less evidence than your blind assertion.

  6. #5
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Oh, and Cnance : creating a new thread doesnt make the argument any better.

  7. 07-01-2011, 01:07 PM

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  8. #6
    LogicallyYours's Avatar
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Feel free to explain why any of the above have less evidence than your blind assertion.
    CNANCE believes that if A does not equal C then, by default, B must equal C.

    He does not seem to grasp that C has to be proven.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harutsedo View Post
    Please use the word energy instead of matter. We know where matter came from.
    And as has been pointed out before, several times, your argument is invalid because it fails to consider alternate options. Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence', because matter is linked with time.

    This forum is for religion scams, not personal testaments.
    (waving hand...) Oh, Snap!
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harutsedo View Post
    Please use the word energy instead of matter. We know where matter came from.
    And as has been pointed out before, several times, your argument is invalid because it fails to consider alternate options. Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence', because matter is linked with time.

    This forum is for religion scams, not personal testaments.
    You say you know where matter came from. Well, where did it come from?

    Isn't e n e r g y a form of matter? What is the difference?

    What are the alternative options?

    What a stupid statement. "Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence, because matter is linked with time." That is contradictory. How can matter always have existed? If matter is linked with time, it cannot be eternal!

    In the posting, where do you find a personal testimony?

    I wish you people would stop making up things.
    Last edited by Cnance; 07-03-2011 at 06:30 AM.

  11. #9
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by needs2stop View Post
    This is a textbook example of fallacious reasoning. The flaw is obvious, however. The assumption which the rest of the argument is based off of, is unsubstantiated. We can't assume it had a beginning based on the evidence, because there is not enough evidence available. And even so, there is still more possibilities than a) matter creating itself, or b) something creating it. It could've always been here, perhaps in some other form. Or it could've morphed or replicated itself by some as of yet unknown phenomenon. More possibilities exist also.

    Even if we prove that matter can't create itself, how do we know someone or something called "God" did it? Even after the first few leaps of logic, we still end up with a conclusion that has no logical explanation--that God made matter.


    Explain how the flaw is obvious. It's obvious that you don't know what your talking about.

    Think before your post. The evidence from the big bang indicates there was a beginning for the universe. You need to take up your argument up with those scientists whose studies have been published.

    Explain how matter could have always been here. That sounds like science fiction.

    Explain your statement. "Or it could've morphed or replicated itself by some as of yet unknown phenomenon. More possibilities exist also."

    There is absolutely no way you can justify such a statement. It's totally illogical. How can matter, which can't create itself, "replicate itself by some as of yet unknown phenomenon?"

  12. #10
    Harutsedo is offline Legitimate Scams Member User Rank
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    You say you know where matter came from. Well, where did it come from?

    Isn't e n e r g y a form of matter? What is the difference?

    What are the alternative options?

    What a stupid statement. "Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence, because matter is linked with time." That is contradictory. How can matter always have existed? If matter is linked with time, it cannot be eternal!

    In the posting, where do you find a personal testimony?

    I wish you people would stop making up things. It makes you look stupid.
    To answer the matter question, read up on the Big Bang.
    Matter is a form of energy, yes, but you wouldn't call water vapor, ice, would you?

    Alternate explanations:
    -The universe has always existed (In case you can't tell, I favor this one; weird membrane stuff puts a hole in this one, though)
    -The universe just began. (Without the help of a god; membrane stuff favors this one)
    -The universe does not exist
    -You are a god
    -Any explanation that science and I do not about yet.

    My statement was not contradictory. If matter is linked with time, matter has existed for all of time. If that isn't eternal, I don't what is.

    Your cosmological argument has a few flaws. You have to prove the universe began, for one. No, the Big Bang does not mean something caused it into existence. You also have to prove that everything has a cause. Quantum mechanics has a bone to pick with you about this one. And, assuming there WAS a first cause, why would it have to be a god? Even if it was a god, why the OT god? Hallucinations don't count as evidence, as you are aware, and I'm going to act in the spirit you want me to-- by only following a linear logical debate.

    I suggest you edit the OP to reflect some sort of scam. As of now, this topic is just for your ranting.

  13. #11
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harutsedo View Post
    To answer the matter question, read up on the Big Bang.
    Matter is a form of energy, yes, but you wouldn't call water vapor, ice, would you?

    Alternate explanations:
    -The universe has always existed (In case you can't tell, I favor this one; weird membrane stuff puts a hole in this one, though)
    -The universe just began. (Without the help of a god; membrane stuff favors this one)
    -The universe does not exist
    -You are a god
    -Any explanation that science and I do not about yet.

    My statement was not contradictory. If matter is linked with time, matter has existed for all of time. If that isn't eternal, I don't what is.

    Your cosmological argument has a few flaws. You have to prove the universe began, for one. No, the Big Bang does not mean something caused it into existence. You also have to prove that everything has a cause. Quantum mechanics has a bone to pick with you about this one. And, assuming there WAS a first cause, why would it have to be a god? Even if it was a god, why the OT god? Hallucinations don't count as evidence, as you are aware, and I'm going to act in the spirit you want me to-- by only following a linear logical debate.

    I suggest you edit the OP to reflect some sort of scam. As of now, this topic is just for your ranting.


    Obviously, your a very bright man. However, you need to stick with basic predicates about matter and the universe. How can time, which is a measure, be eternal? For that to be, time would not exist. In eternity there is no measure of matter or time. Eternal means without limit.

    There is absolutely no way you can justify your statement that matter is eternal.

    If matter were eternal, it would be indestructible, or without limits. Matter had a beginning and is related to time.

    I didn't say I could prove the universe had a beginning. I am relying on scientists for that. If you doubt scientific discoveries about the big bang, that's your right. However, to be credible you must convince the scientific community of their errors.
    Last edited by Cnance; 07-01-2011 at 06:38 PM.

  14. 07-01-2011, 06:33 PM

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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by RACollins View Post
    obviously you did not read mine.
    Oh I did. Congratulations.

    Or was there some further point you were making?

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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    No, just the usual bullshit.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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  17. 07-02-2011, 08:16 AM

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  18. #14
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by RACollins View Post
    The same is to say Scientists agree the universe began. They do not however know what caused it to begin.

    Fact, the big bang did not exist till someone thought of it as an explanation for the cause...that is, the cause of its(the big bangs) beginning... How then does the thought of a "big Bang" differ from the thought of a "God" in the explanation as to the cause of the universes begining?

    Fact, neither can be proven to of existed as a cause in the time line of matter having taken on the form of the many forms in which it has...

    Fact, time is a measurement in units requiring a starting point and an ending point representing the period in which it is taken... not taken, no measurement exists...

    Consider the number line; it has an origin representing zero time. Units in the negative direction represent the past. Units in the positive direction represent the future.

    As the past becomes the future it does so at the origin. That is, the origin represents the here and now or the simultaneous existence of all things which continue to exist... That is, If there were a beginning, and, the origin represented it, there would be no negative past existence of time or matter or space had not all began at the origin on the number line... as in the origin representing the big bang assuming there was one... That is to further say, if before the assumed "big bang" or "God" Space, matter and time existed not, then history would end at the origin of the x axis as well as begin there... we would then have the current date somewhere down the x axis representing time in the positive direction and history would be positive in the negative direction only till it reached the origin and the future would be positive heading to the right of the current date and time...

    If you do not accept that concept then there is or was no beginning and history is eternally negative to the left of the origin which would mean there was no beginning to time or space or matter as it would of always existed eternity past in the negative numbers on the number line... just as the future is represented by the positive numbers on the positive side of the origin so long as what exists continues to.

    I tend to believe space and matter always was in one form or another for what would there be if there were no space or how could there be such a thing as no dimension? You can collapse a balloon by popping it but the space it occupied while inflated remains... only the space within the balloon itself collapses upon popping...




    Like you said... assume...



    Really, there is no proof matter did not always exist... let science prove that before they attempt to explain their discovery on how it developed... for as you said, if it did develop, before it did, it would not of existed to of come from anywhere...



    Neither matter made itself nor was it created... it always existed until you can prove otherwise which science cannot...
    Interesting perspective. For the purpose of discussion, let's assume that our time line began at the very instant when the big bang occurred. Could we have a negative time variable? Because time, by its definition, has a beginning, you could not have negative numbers. For time, comparative measures are required.

    If you assume negative time, where would it digress to? Wouldn't it go to infinity? If so, what is infinity with regard to time? The problem for a negative attribute of time is it has no limit. Thus, we have --1, --2, and so on with no end to a sequence of negative numbers. In short, a negative number sequence into eternity would have no meaning.

    On the other side of the big bang is God and eternity. Assuming God and heaven aren't made of matter, it wouldn't be possible to have negative numbers.

    At the very instant when God created the big bang time began.

    Your analogy of the balloon, etc. are based on what we know about matter. I assume matter didn't exist prior to the big bang. Therefore, all that we know about matter is related to the universe. If the universe self-destructs, which I believe, matter and therefore time will cease to exist.

    In heaven there may be relative measures of time. That was when God created angels. Angels may have histories based on when they were created.
    Last edited by Cnance; 07-03-2011 at 01:22 PM.

  19. 07-03-2011, 04:05 PM

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  20. #15
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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by RACollins View Post

    How account you the stars are called stars and the seas seas as they are in the first book of Moses that gives account on how they were named as well as formed? Science would not ponder that and assume it coincidence as stemming from the missing link having given them name in the transformation of ape to man notwithstanding there are still some apes among us...
    Seriously? Hee hee.

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    Re: The OT Lord created the universe.

    your argument is invalid because it fails to consider alternate options. Also, the Big Bang model predicts that matter always existed. It never 'came into existence', because matter is linked with time. As the past becomes the future it does so at the origin. That is, the origin represents the here and now or the simultaneous existence of all things which continue to exist... That is, If there were a beginning, and, the origin represented it, there would be no negative past existence of time or matter or space had not all began at the origin on the number line... as in the origin representing the big bang assuming there was one... That is to further say, if before the assumed "big bang" or "God" Space, matter and time existed not, then history would end at the origin of the x axis as well as begin there..

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