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  1. #49
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    Assuming the logic is sound, then the conclusion must be true if the premises are true. I would argue that the logic is not sound.
    1. Inference 3 is an argument from incredulity. There is no logical reason why an infinite chain of events is impossible.
    2. Associating the unmoved-mover with god is completely unfounded.
    More damningly, the premises were proven incorrect over 100 years ago. Premise 2 does not apply on fundamental scales - things can begin moving without being set into motion by something else. The laws of the universe are quite simply not the laws that Aristotle thought they were.

    Why isn't the logic sound. Science has not proven that there was no beginning, and that time and matter are not related.

    I am not making an argument based on incredibility. Based on logic, how could the universe create itself? It may be incredulous because science has no understanding of the supernatural. That does not mean however the supernatural doesn't exist. I know, where is the proof. Well, where is the prove for a natural cause explanation for the universe.

    How is it possible for things to move independent of external or internal forces. Even atoms have momentum based on composition. Gravity in the universe influences movement of huge masses, which in turn influences smaller masses. Where are is there a moving event unrelated to either an external or internal force?

    Therefore if we have a progression of events, we have a time line, which means we must have a beginning for that progression.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-29-2011 at 05:42 PM.

  2. #50
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Why isn't the logic sound. Science has not proven that there was no beginning, and that time and matter are not related.

    I am not making an argument based on incredibility. Based on logic, how could the universe create itself? It may be incredulous because science has no understanding of the supernatural. That does not mean however the supernatural doesn't exist. I know, where is the proof. Well, where is the prove for a natural cause explanation for the universe.
    It is an argument from incredulity, not incredibility. The argument that you just provided is an argument from incredulity.

    An argument from incredulity takes the following form:

    1. I cannot conceive that X is possible.
    2. Therefore X is impossible.

    How is it possible for things to move independent of external or internal forces. Even atoms have momentum based on composition. Gravity in the universe influences movement of huge masses, which in turn influences smaller masses. Where are is there a moving event unrelated to either an external or internal force?
    This gets quite complicated quite quickly. It is not so much that things move independently of forces. It is that the very concept of movement or position is ill-defined. It is something that we think we understand based on our everyday experiences, but when we look in detail the universe actually behaves quite differently.

    Therefore if we have a progression of events, we have a time line, which means we must have a beginning for that progression.
    Why must we have a beginning. Why is it impossible for things to be infinite?

  3. #51
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    It is an argument from incredulity, not incredibility. The argument that you just provided is an argument from incredulity.

    An argument from incredulity takes the following form:

    1. I cannot conceive that X is possible.
    2. Therefore X is impossible.



    This gets quite complicated quite quickly. It is not so much that things move independently of forces. It is that the very concept of movement or position is ill-defined. It is something that we think we understand based on our everyday experiences, but when we look in detail the universe actually behaves quite differently.



    Why must we have a beginning. Why is it impossible for things to be infinite?

    Yes, if there is no definition of X how can we proceed. That's only acceptable based on faith. Unless, we have a supernatural event to prove the existence of X.

    My argument for the impossibility of infinity of matter is based on the assumption that there is a beginning. Assuming matter doesn't develops by stages, it has a time line. Also, assuming infinity, wouldn't we have circularity, whereby matter or an instant of time would be independent without changing? Also, assuming infinity, there would be no destruction of matter. Wouldn't matter therefore be "eternal?" Yes, we have Einstein's theory of "matter can neither be created or destroyed," but isn't that based on a self-contained universe with a beginning. The way I see it, if you toss a ball into a room, it bounces off walls without changing. However, the ball changes other things in the room, then you have a progression of events depending on the force of the ball.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-29-2011 at 06:32 PM.

  4. #52
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Yes, if there is no definition of X how can we proceed. That's only acceptable based on faith. Unless, we have a supernatural event to prove the existence of X.

    Let's just be clear.

    I am not arguing that there is no god. I cannot prove that.

    What I am saying is that "I cannot conceive of an infinite chain of events" is not proof that an infinite chain of events cannot exist.


    My argument for the impossibility of infinity of matter is based on the assumption that there is a beginning. Assuming matter doesn't regress to become nothing, or cease to exist, it has a time line. Also, assuming infinity, wouldn't we have circularity, whereby matter or an instant of time would be independent without changing?
    This is begging the question. You are setting out to prove that an infinite chain of events is impossible, but you are doing so by assuming that an infinite chain of events is impossible - "the assumption that there is a beginning."

    Also, assuming infinity, there would be no destruction of matter. Wouldn't matter therefore be "eternal?" Yes, we have Einstein's theory of "matter can neither be created or destroyed," but isn't that based on a self-contained universe with a beginning. The way I see it, if you toss a ball into a room, it bounces off walls without changing. However, the ball changes other things in the room, then you have a progression of events depending on the force of the ball.
    A few things here:

    Matter can neither be created nor destroyed
    - This has nothing to do with Einstein
    - This is an empirically observed fact. It could more accurately be stated - we have never observed matter being created nor destroyed.

    Self-contained universe with a beginning.
    - As I mentioned above, conservation of mass/en3rgy is something that we have observed. It doesn't require a self-contained universe or anything of the sort.
    - Conservation of en3rgy is related to the time-invariance of the laws of physics through Noether's theorem. A universe with a beginning may not have time-invariant physical laws, and hence en3rgy may not be conserved in such a universe.


    This line of argument is going to get very technical very quickly. The best way I can think of to state it without maths is like this:

    In physics we make observations about the universe. Based on these observations we come up with equations that explain the behaviour that we have observed. Newton's law of Gravity is an equation that explains falling objects, for example. However, these equations only apply to certain domains. We know that Newton's Law of Gravity applies on Earth's surface because we have tested it on Earth's surface. When we test it on the rotation of the planets we also find that it is true. When we test it on the motion of stars and galaxies we find that it fails. Hence, we cannot use Newton's Law of Gravity to tell us about the motion of stars and galaxies.

    Likewise, we have never observed en3rgy being created or destroyed. Hence we have come up with an equation that says that en3rgy must be conserved. However, we don't know that this equation will apply everywhere. We can only say that it applies in the situations that we have observed it to be true. It may be possible that en3rgy conservation did not hold during the big bang. The conditions of the big bang were so different from anything we are familiar with that it is not sensible for us to extrapolate conservation of en3rgy without serious consideration.

  5. #53
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Excellent posts kazza.

  6. #54
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    Let's just be clear.

    I am not arguing that there is no god. I cannot prove that.

    What I am saying is that "I cannot conceive of an infinite chain of events" is not proof that an infinite chain of events cannot exist.
    It appears my definition of infinity doesn't correspond to anything in physics. I understand, according to physics, there are forces, ener3gy, momentum, and theories to explain chain of events. My inability to imagine an infinite chain of events is not prove for the absence of such events. I get it.

    This is begging the question. You are setting out to prove that an infinite chain of events is impossible, but you are doing so by assuming that an infinite chain of events is impossible - "the assumption that there is a beginning."
    I suppose that means there must be a null hypothesis to prove it wrong. We do have about a 13,7 billion years estimate of the big bang and information about our expanding universe. Evidently, physics is about processes, not the beginning for those processes.

    A few things here:

    Matter can neither be created nor destroyed
    - This has nothing to do with Einstein
    - This is an empirically observed fact. It could more accurately be stated - we have never observed matter being created nor destroyed.
    Amazing, all this time and science can't observe creation or destruction. How about decay of matter, or matter shrinking into black holes. Is there absolute conservation of matter under those circumstances? I can imagine matter changing form, but, in that process, can particles of matter disappear? As you mentioned, it isn't possible to observe.


    Self-contained universe with a beginning.
    - As I mentioned above, conservation of mass/en3rgy is something that we have observed. It doesn't require a self-contained universe or anything of the sort.
    - Conservation of en3rgy is related to the time-invariance of the laws of physics through Noether's theorem. A universe with a beginning may not have time-invariant physical laws, and hence en3rgy may not be conserved in such a universe.


    This line of argument is going to get very technical very quickly. The best way I can think of to state it without maths is like this:
    I appreciate your reply. Without an assumption of a beginning, physics hasn't computed the problem. Assuming a beginning requires new assumptions or computations. How about studies about an expanding universe? Do those studies address processes leading to conservation of ener3gy and matter?

    In physics we make observations about the universe. Based on these observations we come up with equations that explain the behaviour that we have observed. Newton's law of Gravity is an equation that explains falling objects, for example. However, these equations only apply to certain domains. We know that Newton's Law of Gravity applies on Earth's surface because we have tested it on Earth's surface. When we test it on the rotation of the planets we also find that it is true. When we test it on the motion of stars and galaxies we find that it fails. Hence, we cannot use Newton's Law of Gravity to tell us about the motion of stars and galaxies.

    Likewise, we have never observed en3rgy being created or destroyed. Hence we have come up with an equation that says that en3rgy must be conserved. However, we don't know that this equation will apply everywhere. We can only say that it applies in the situations that we have observed it to be true. It may be possible that en3rgy conservation did not hold during the big bang. The conditions of the big bang were so different from anything we are familiar with that it is not sensible for us to extrapolate conservation of en3rgy without serious consideration.
    That is very interesting. Outer space is like another world.

    Evidently, the big bang throws off standard calculations.

    Again, that is a very informative answer.

    Apparently, it is an unsolvable problem. Because we have conservation of ener3gy without a beginning, physics assumes a continuous process. My idea about matter changing form as a measure of time is an unproven assumption. That doesn't mean however that time is not a factor as a measurement of matter and the universe.

    My idea that in order for matter to be infinite it must be indestructible or circular in time is of course untestable. However, it has intuitive appeal.

    The assumption that a supernatural being is infinite with respect to its existence is also an untestable because of course God is a non-material being. You can however apply the logic of physical laws with respect to moving bodies and the issue of something coming from nothing. Even with an assumption of continuous matter, there is no explanation regarding origins.

    I suppose proving matter doesn't confirm to conservation of ener3gy laws would allow assumptions of a beginning. The universe appears to be like a giant room. Once inside, assumptions are limited.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-30-2011 at 07:07 AM.

  7. #55
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicReasoning View Post
    Hi Welcome.

    This is to open your mind to what is and has been for many years great refute and concern on the existence of a Supernatural being, also known as God. Well it goes even deeper than this.

    What we only conclude over and over again is that allot of people haven't got a clue what they are saying or discussing, we no background, no literal studies, and even more importance NO Personal Experience with the area. Thus alll speculations are only non factual and mere opions from a bunck of Crazy people... who are longing for something of value but refuting the one thing that brings peace, IF ONLY they whent Deep enough.

    Some may claim they were there are know about it, probably they devil in disguise siting at a gathering, being a Demonic Advocate. The could never understand the reality of what exists in our world. To believe in Scientific speculations is wrong. I can prove science has lied millions of times cause its men who derive these assumptions. Scientific minds like good friends of mind and people I knew.

    The facts you will uncover will Defy all odd, all logics confirm and even defy some reasoning, and to understand it you have to look into other dimensions, not readily open to the casual human min. This requires a DEEPER LEVEL, a Personal experience...you don't find people wishing to journey to this because they fear it to be REAL and True so they Stay outside draw assumptions and cast stones on the subject, these are cowards and Fools.

    But when you would have experienced the thing, you are NEVER the same.

    Common Issue: Many Christians get lost in the maze of things and some just get as serious as the need to. Because if they were they would have understood they power it entails.

    Who Can Tel: Those who know what the Deep levels are like, not Catholics...i've got an issue with this group. Because they are very different from true Christianity, allot of hidden Secrets and Confirmations can prove that they are NOT Christians... what they do and are about will shock you, but even more prove that other forces exists in our world, that either Directly or indirectly affects us.

    Anything Supernatural is either Propelled by a Evil or Good force... and to experience anything Supernatural takes a Deeper Experience and 100% Faith in Believing it exists.

    Arguing the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause and Tooth Fairy is a FOOLS play Ground. Can you even go deeper in these foolish speculation like can u spiritually experience Santa Clause, you must be a fool to come pare man made trash with real supernatural things that gives assurance of the existence of another realm.

    DONT ARGUE unless you have gone DEEPER, and experienced the thing and found its meaning. Most fortune tellers, witch craft workers or witches and wizard, turn pastors and leaders if the get a rich deep experience and are able to change their life for the Good. This is because when you would have understood the Power of the supernatural you are able to appreciate the power of the other force, it becomes practical and real. Else when you would have sold your life to Death and hell and Demon possession to empower you to tell mysteries of the world, it would take a Strong impact of Good force to get you free from such bondage, God is real and if I can Prove him anyone can they just need to SEE WHAT I SEE, and stop cursing what they have no clue about, if they came out of the faith, they didn't make if work for them..and probably have adapted a REPROBATE MIND.. that is immune to God's Existence, at this point you are a walking Dead and nothing can help you, at this point God simple says "he choses not to listen to me and constantly does wrong, going far from me..then i will go far from him" and his hands are off you, thus you can die after reading this...

    ---If a Young Scholar and prodigy can experience this anyone can. It has to be Real. Believe in God not in the Millions that are already Doomed for hell, about 1.2BILLION people Believe in God, don't be fooled by the few who Don't Demons are working so be wide and go deeper in God learn More and Live a better life.

    As you go Deeper and life according to to words of God, you will want to live a practical life. Here, unlimited wealth with MEANING comes, Success , Love, peace so much you will not be afraid of death and will not die unless God is ready for you to be with him, the power to understand mysteries to life and complex thinking and reasoning, you willl begin to SEE things hidden from the unsaved and understand how Supernatural powers work in Evil Forces and in Christianity. This will steer you in the path of becoming a RADICAL (this means deep level faith and belief).. Christian True. You will love your friends, brothers, sisters, your enemy, your abusers..love them until it hurts them.. you will understand the secrets to increasing finance and wealth in the Bible as well as all the instructions you need about LIFE, Faith, getting a Job, Saving and nurturing relationships, intense dynamic romance, developing the spiritual part of a human being since we were created BODY, SOUL and MIND. Then you will find promises and key information and information for illuminating SEXUAL ADDICTIONS, how to deal Sexual Crimes, how to find the life long partner you need, how to invest, how to trust, how to serve, how to fight and why not fight since your battle is already won, why most things we fight against may allways bother us unless we equip ourself with Supernatural experience and direction, how to live in the spirit. We fight not against Flesh and blood but principalities and powers, against spiritual wickedness in High and low places, the places unseen to carnal man, but with a purified spiritual mind.

    I urge you. Go Deeper. Chose to be Different. Chose not to confirm to the Model this world has laid out for you.

    According to the World (Simple man): A man is only a man unless he lost his virginity, got a girl ..actually girlS, multiple partners, and is macho..never can he kiss another guy even if its his little son or dad or brother, else this will be gay...and if he does this to his daughter its incest. A man cannot cry, men shouldn't cry. You are your own boss no matter where you go. There is no sin and everything is right in your own eyes..There is no God. and we All gotta die some day. ..some say every girl is a whore and calling females bitches are fine, being a virgin and not having a girl/boy is GAY, no wanting to have sex is Gay, saying no to sex is Gay. Then when the world gives all this idiotic rules and you break them , lol... you're Gay or ***, something's wrong with you.. and a whole bunch of crap from useless empty minded Godless creatures. Who probably believe the Scientifically came from Apes so they ace like apes all their life.
    And to sum it up.....?

  8. #56
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywriting View Post
    And to sum it up.....?
    God will always exist while discussion on the existence or non existence of god is ongoing because GOD is simply a word. We are discussing god therefore god (for the purpose of the discussion) exists. Simple logic

  9. #57
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by chesty View Post
    God will always exist while discussion on the existence or non existence of god is ongoing because GOD is simply a word. We are discussing god therefore god (for the purpose of the discussion) exists. Simple logic
    All words attempt to encapsulate a meaning or idea.
    And conveying ideas is very powerful becasue
    everything begins with an idea.

  10. #58
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywriting View Post
    All words attempt to encapsulate a meaning or idea.
    And conveying ideas is very powerful becasue
    everything begins with an idea.
    And ideas are built on, and can grow huge, until the original idea has been forgotten, and the legend takes over.

  11. #59
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by chesty View Post
    And ideas are built on, and can grow huge, until the original idea has been forgotten, and the legend takes over.
    Which is why the written word is an improvment
    over songs. But songs work too.

  12. #60
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    singing is not like talking or reading!! singing proceeds from the heart not the head!!
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  13. #61
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    singing is not like talking or reading!! singing proceeds from the heart not the head!!
    Singing is the same as talking but with more tonal range.

    Singing may well be what we read in scripture. This allows for easier memorization among nonliterate folks.

  14. #62
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywriting View Post
    Singing is the same as talking but with more tonal range.

    Singing may well be what we read in scripture. This allows for easier memorization among nonliterate folks.
    oh WOW what about WHISTLE while you WORK!? anything RELIGIOUS there!? the ASIANS talk about the SONG of GOD!? what does it mean!? practicing HYMNS in some church!? that' simple INDOCTRINATION based on a POSITIVE intellectual HYPNOSIS!? which is what you SEEM to DESCRIBE!? the scriptures SAY the BELIEVER who GOES FORTH wil be PERSECUTED and KILLED!! like all the SAINTS we can SURMISE!? anybody ELSE is FAKING IT or doing a good DODGE when REQUIRED!? of course we COULD propose that at SOME point in the SLAUGHTER like a GOOD conventional WAR the TIPOVER point is REACHED and the ENEMY SAVED exceeds the SAVING forces SACRIFICED!? the TRICK is you CANT know THAT going IN!? but of COURSE if you BELONG to a KNOWN group of CONTENDERS then you ALL can AGREE to NOT follow the RULES at SOME point!? like a LIVING HERO!? bets a DEAD HERO any day!? ASK TRUMP!?
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  15. #63
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    oh WOW what about WHISTLE while you WORK!? anything RELIGIOUS there!? the ASIANS talk about the SONG of GOD!? what does it mean!? practicing HYMNS in some church!? that' simple INDOCTRINATION based on a POSITIVE intellectual HYPNOSIS!? which is what you SEEM to DESCRIBE!? the scriptures SAY the BELIEVER who GOES FORTH wil be PERSECUTED and KILLED!! like all the SAINTS we can SURMISE!? anybody ELSE is FAKING IT or doing a good DODGE when REQUIRED!? of course we COULD propose that at SOME point in the SLAUGHTER like a GOOD conventional WAR the TIPOVER point is REACHED and the ENEMY SAVED exceeds the SAVING forces SACRIFICED!? the TRICK is you CANT know THAT going IN!? but of COURSE if you BELONG to a KNOWN group of CONTENDERS then you ALL can AGREE to NOT follow the RULES at SOME point!? like a LIVING HERO!? bets a DEAD HERO any day!? ASK TRUMP!?
    I have no concerns about death.
    Believers are forgiven for any Sins when they ask for forgiveness.
    Please do correct me when I'm Wrong.
    Matthew 7:12
    In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

    Get Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3

    Any other questions? - Sky

  16. #64
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    Re: True Science Proves God Exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywriting View Post
    I have no concerns about death.
    Believers are forgiven for any Sins when they ask for forgiveness.
    in THAT sense i have to say your FAITH so to speak does NOT exist in a VACUUM your are holding HANDS thru MIND so to speak and THAT thru ASSOCIATION of some kind!? which i what i am concerned about in the sense that this NEEDED MENTORING if i may call it that how can it ALWAYS be EASY!? the NUMBERS are NEVER gonna CHANGE with THAT ATTITUDE!? and yet here in the USA we are SO USED to HAVING it EASY and STRIVE for such a STATE of EXISTENCE!? i mean the DEVIL does NOT care if the EASY 1's get SAVED he FIGHTS to KEEP the 1's who DONT feel DRAWN as you may have mentioned!? which reminds me o the scripture that. i go thru the valley of the shadow of death....NO THANKS not for ME if i can AVOID IT!?
    Last edited by lexx; 09-25-2017 at 10:18 PM.
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