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  1. #1
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    What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kerry, Council on Foreign Relations, 12/3/2003
    I fear that in the run-up to the 2004 election, the administration is considering what is tantamount to a cut-and-run strategy. Their sudden embrace of accelerated Iraqification and American troop withdrawal dates, without adequate stability, is an invitation to failure. The hard work of rebuilding Iraq must not be dictated by the schedule of the next American election.

    I have called for the administration to transfer sovereignty, and they must transfer it to the Iraqi people as quickly as circumstances permit. But it would be a disaster and a disgraceful betrayal of principle to speed up the process simply to lay the groundwork for a politically expedient withdrawal of American troops. That could risk the hijacking of Iraq by terrorist groups and former Ba'athists.

    Responding to a question after a speech Thursday at the Pacific Council on International Policy in Century City, Calif., Kerry said he would introduce an amendment to the defense authorization bill (S 2507) requiring withdrawal of U.S. troops by the end of 2006, except for those training Iraqi security forces. Here is what he proposed:

    Quote Originally Posted by SEC. 1084. UNITED STATES POLICY ON IRAQ.

    (a) Withdrawal of Troops From Iraq.--

    (1) SCHEDULE FOR WITHDRAWAL.--The President shall reach an agreement as soon as possible with the Government of Iraq on a schedule for the withdrawal of United States combat troops from Iraq by December 31, 2006, leaving only forces that are critical to completing the mission of standing up Iraqi security forces.
    Can you say "Flip flop"...

    .

  2. #2
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    we should cut and run.
    were getting almost nothing done and as soon as we leave the democratic government will probably get overthrown anyways...
    Baghdad in general is like a second Stalingrad: nausiating and hopeless urban combat where theres always a place to hide or bury an explosive. buildings make the perfect sniping positions and they make instant trenches to duck under. its really a hopeless mess that cannot be won in anyway except the really, really hard way. and that really really hard way cannot be won without enough troops that only a draft can provide. this is what the Germans would call "Rattenkrieg".
    Last edited by Blue Crab of PAIN!!!; 06-23-2006 at 11:48 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Can you say "Flip flop"...

    .

    "Nation Building and the War in Iraq


    During the 2000 campaign, George W. Bush argued against nation building and foreign military entanglements. In the second presidential debate, he said: "I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say, 'This is the way it's got to be.'"

    The United States is currently involved in nation building in Iraq on a scale unseen since the years immediately following World War II.

    During the 2000 election, Mr. Bush called for U.S. troops to be withdrawn from the NATO peacekeeping mission in the Balkans. His administration now cites such missions as an example of how America must "stay the course."


    Iraq and the Sept. 11 Attacks


    In a press conference in September 2002, six months before the invasion of Iraq, President Bush said, �you can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror... they're both equally as bad, and equally as evil, and equally as destructive.�

    In September of 2004, Mr. Bush said: �We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September 11th." Though he added that �there's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties,� the statement seemingly belied earlier assertions that Saddam and al Qaeda were �equally bad.�

    The Sept. 11 commission found there was no evidence Saddam was linked to the 9/11 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people.


    The Sept. 11 Commission

    President Bush initially opposed the creation of an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 attacks. In May 2002, he said, �Since it deals with such sensitive information, in my judgment, it's best for the ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the intelligence committee.�

    Bowing to pressure from victims' families, Mr. Bush reversed his position. The following September, he backed an independent investigation.


    Free Trade

    During the 2000 presidential election, Mr. Bush championed free trade. Then, eyeing campaign concerns that allowed him to win West Virginia, he imposed 30 percent tariffs on foreign steel products from Europe and other nations in March 2002.

    Twenty-one months later, Mr. Bush changed his mind and rescinded the steel tariffs. Choosing to stand on social issues instead of tariffs in steel country � Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia � the Bush campaign decided it could afford to upset the steel industry rather than further estrange old alliances.


    Homeland Security Department

    President Bush initially opposed creating a new Department of Homeland Security. He wanted Tom Ridge, now the secretary of Homeland Security, to remain an adviser.

    Mr. Bush reversed himself and backed the largest expansion of the federal government since the creation of the Defense Department in 1949.


    Same-Sex Marriage

    During the 2000 campaign, Mr. Bush said he was against federal intervention regarding the issue of same-sex marriage. In an interview with CNN's Larry King, he said, states "can do what they want to do" on the issue. Vice President Cheney took the same stance.

    Four year later, this past February, Mr. Bush announced his support for an amendment to the Constitution that defines marriage as being exclusively between men and women. The amendment would forbid states from doing "what they want to do" on same-sex marriage.

    Citing recent decisions by �activist judges� in states like Massachusetts, Mr. Bush defended his reversal. Critics point out that well before the 2000 presidential race, a judge in Hawaii ruled in December 1996 that there was no compelling reason for withholding marriage from same-sex couples.


    Winning the War on Terror

    "I don't think you can win it," Mr. Bush said of the war on terror in August. In an interview on NBC's "Today" show, he said, �I think you can create conditions so that . . . those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world."

    Before the month closed, Mr. Bush reversed himself at the American Legion national convention in Nashville. He said: "We meet today in a time of war for our country, a war we did not start yet one that we will win." He later added, �we are winning, and we will win."


    Campaign Finance Reform

    President Bush was initially against the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill. He opposed any soft-money limits on individuals to national parties.

    But Mr. Bush later signed McCain-Feingold into law. The law, named for Senate sponsors John McCain, R-Ariz., and Russell Feingold, D-Wis., barred both national parties from collecting soft money from individuals.

    During the 2000 race, Mr. Bush showed support for the so-called 527 groups� right to air advertising.

    In March 2000, he told CBS News' "Face the Nation," "There have been ads, independent expenditures, that are saying bad things about me. I don't particularly care when they do, but that's what freedom of speech is all about.�

    In late August of this year, in an effort to distance himself from controversial anti-Kerry ads by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Mr. Bush reversed his position, announcing he would join McCain in legal action to stop these "shadowy" organizations.

    Though it would close the Swift Boat group's funding, court action would also silence well-funded liberal 527 organizations like MoveOn.org and America Coming Together.


    Gas Prices

    Mr. Bush was critical of Al Gore in the 2000 campaign for being part of �the administration that's been in charge� while the �price of gasoline has gone steadily upward.� In December 1999, in the first Republican primary debate, Mr. Bush said President Clinton �must jawbone OPEC members to lower prices.�

    As gas topped a record level of $70 a barrel this week, Mr. Bush has shown no propensity to personally pressure, or �jawbone,� Mideast oil producers to increase output.

    A spokesman for the president reportedly said in March that Mr. Bush will not personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds. "


    Can you say "flip-flop"?

  4. #4
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by UserName
    [B]
    Iraq and the Sept. 11 Attacks

    In a press conference in September 2002, six months before the invasion of Iraq, President Bush said, �you can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror... they're both equally as bad, and equally as evil, and equally as destructive.� You people got to stop this dishonest BS. It is true that in the war on terror, there really wasn't a difference between Saddam and Osama. The key phrase is "WAR ON TERROR". Google it and see who the enemy is.

    In September of 2004, Mr. Bush said: �We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September 11th." True Though he added that �there's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties, Also true ¿½ the statement seemingly belied earlier assertions that Saddam and al Qaeda were �equally bad.� How the f.u.c.k. did you make that ridiculous leap?

    The Sept. 11 commission found there was no evidence Saddam was linked to the 9/11 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people. True again... I have no clue what the point of the preceding was.


    The Sept. 11 Commission

    President Bush initially opposed the creation of an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 attacks. In May 2002, he said, �Since it deals with such sensitive information, in my judgment, it's best for the ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the intelligence committee.�

    Bowing to pressure from victims' families, Mr. Bush reversed his position. The following September, he backed an independent investigation. Would that be the investigation done by the "Senate Intelligence Committee" that I have sited over and over and over again?


    Same-Sex Marriage

    During the 2000 campaign, Mr. Bush said he was against federal intervention regarding the issue of same-sex marriage. In an interview with CNN's Larry King, he said, states "can do what they want to do" on the issue. Vice President Cheney took the same stance.

    Four year later, this past February, Mr. Bush announced his support for an amendment to the Constitution that defines marriage as being exclusively between men and women. The amendment would forbid states from doing "what they want to do" on same-sex marriage. That is a lie! No federal amendment would forbid any state from voting on, and passing legislation approving of same sex marriages

    Citing recent decisions by �activist judges� in states like Massachusetts, Mr. Bush defended his reversal. Critics point out that well before the 2000 presidential race, a judge in Hawaii ruled in December 1996 that there was no compelling reason for withholding marriage from same-sex couples.

    Was this supposed to be some kind of "Flip Flop" or something? He opposed gay marriage then... He opposes it now.

    Winning the War on Terror

    "I don't think you can win it," Mr. Bush said of the war on terror in August. In an interview on NBC's "Today" show, he said, �I think you can create conditions so that . . . those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world." You know as well as I do this was a mis-statement on the part of the president. Kind of like Al Gore saying he "Created the Internet". Personally, I think he was saying you can't "Stop" terrorism. That is to say it can't be completely eliminated.

    Before the month closed, Mr. Bush reversed himself at the American Legion national convention in Nashville. He said: "We meet today in a time of war for our country, a war we did not start yet one that we will win." He later added, �we are winning, and we will win." He never reversed himself and you damn well know it... The first paragraph was a mistake, and the last one matches all of the other statements he made on the war. The rest of your post was pretty weak, and doesn't come close to comparing to Kerry's weekly contradictions.

    Can you say "flip-flop"?
    As a matter of fact I can... John Kerry!

    .

  5. #5
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    As a matter of fact I can... John Kerry!
    .
    George Bush has lied and flip-flopped more that any president in US history. I would say that a presidential liar is a lot more disgusting.

  6. #6
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    "Cut and Run" That's the new Karl Rove catch phrase the repugs are using in order to try recover some momentum for the elections in November. They showed at least a dozen repugs using the same phrase over and over again on tv yesterday.

  7. #7
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by UserName
    George Bush has lied and flip-flopped more that any president in US history. I would say that a presidential liar is a lot more disgusting.
    i dont think its just the flip-flops that apparently makes him disgusting.
    he is the LEAST popular president EVER, even LESS popular than HOOVER and NIXON

    HOOVER AND NIXON!!!

    there has to be more at work here than just flip-flops

  8. #8
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by UserName
    George Bush has lied and flip-flopped more that any president in US history. I would say that a presidential liar is a lot more disgusting.
    Didn't Clinton say that our troops would be out of Bosnia by end of 1995, last I checked still there, he sure didn't cut and run.

  9. #9
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    Re: What's The Best Kerry Plan: "Cut and Run", or "Stay and Win"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Crab of PAIN!!!
    we should cut and run.
    were getting almost nothing done and as soon as we leave the democratic government will probably get overthrown anyways...
    Baghdad in general is like a second Stalingrad: nausiating and hopeless urban combat where theres always a place to hide or bury an explosive. buildings make the perfect sniping positions and they make instant trenches to duck under. its really a hopeless mess that cannot be won in anyway except the really, really hard way. and that really really hard way cannot be won without enough troops that only a draft can provide. this is what the Germans would call "Rattenkrieg".
    The Neocons have no intentions of leaving Iraq anytime soon. It was always their plan to stay in Iraq for the long term. A new home to keep watchful eye on their "interests" with Israel in tow.

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