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    Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Biologist Kathryn Applegate claims Intelligent Design ignores the magic of nature to make a Flagellum, a whiplike extension of certain cells or unicellular organisms used for locomotion.


    http://biologos.org/blog/self-assembly-of-the-bacterial-flagellum-no-intelligence-required/

    She writes,
    "It is tempting to think the spontaneous formation of so complex a machine is “guided,” whether by a Mind or some “life force,” but we know that the bacterial flagellum, like countless other machines in the cell, assembles and functions automatically according to known natural laws. No intelligence required."

    However, she fails to explain how this automatic or magical process works.

    What do you think? Has science answered important questions about the origin of flagellum. There are also questions about the origins of DNA and RNA? Was it magic or Intelligent Design?


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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Its called nature....

    intelligent design is called holding onto myths and trying to conform them to reality...
    The issue is to explain. If science is real and can explain natural phenomena, then it should be able to explain the evolution of flagellum, a most important biological entity.

    If you can't explain it, then don't claim to have the answers about evolution. I believe the origin question is the most important issue for evolution. If you cannot prove how flagellum e v o l v e d naturally, then intelligent design becomes a viable explanation.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Cnance, really?....I mean, really???

    So, after being taken to task for failing to acknowledge and understand pre-cambrian fossils...and then promising to be more unbiased regarding science, you drag out the the Disco Institutes' LONG DEBUNKED argument for Irreducible Complexity?

    Come on!...you can find the explanation in less than 30 seconds. That is, if you're really searching.

    I really don't believe your quest for knowledge is sincere.

    Oh, and another point, Magic = Intelligent Design (ID) as there is no proof of ID or a designer. Evolution is an observed natural process. It does not require Magic.
    Last edited by LogicallyYours; 10-20-2010 at 12:02 PM.
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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    The issue is to explain. If science is real and can explain natural phenomena, then it should be able to explain the evolution of flagellum, a most important biological entity.

    If you can't explain it, then don't claim to have the answers about evolution. I believe the origin question is the most important issue for evolution. If you cannot prove how flagellum e v o l v e d naturally, then intelligent design becomes a viable explanation.
    No, again you have committed a logical fallacy. There is no proof for ID or a designer so, ID does not become a de facto "viable explanation" because it cannot stand on it's own merits.
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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    However, she fails to explain how this automatic or magical process works.
    Here is the Abstract from a scientific paper she helped with while at The Scripps Research Institute (TSRI) that was published back in early 2007. It relates to how the process works, as the title states.

    sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;315/5808/111
    Science 5 January 2007:
    Vol. 315. no. 5808, pp. 111 - 115
    DOI: 10.1126/science.1135085

    Reports
    Differential Transmission of Actin Motion Within Focal Adhesions
    Ke Hu,* Lin Ji,* Kathryn T. Applegate, Gaudenz Danuser,@ Clare M. [email protected]

    Cell migration requires the transmission of motion generated in the actin cytoskeleton to the extracellular environment through a complex assembly of proteins in focal adhesions. We developed correlational fluorescent speckle microscopy to measure the coupling of focal-adhesion proteins to actin filaments. Different classes of focal-adhesion structural and regulatory molecules exhibited varying degrees of correlated motions with actin filaments, indicating hierarchical transmission of actin motion through focal adhesions. Interactions between vinculin, talin, and actin filaments appear to constitute a slippage interface between the cytoskeleton and integrins, generating a molecular clutch that is regulated during the morphodynamic transitions of cell migration.

    Department of Cell Biology, The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA 92037, USA.

    * These authors contributed equally to this work.

    @ To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: waterman @scripps.edu (C.M.W.-S.); gdanuser @scripps.edu (G.D.)
    (E-mails edited, remove space)
    You can access the full paper at the link I gave above, however you must sign up, it is free.

    Here is the abstract from a more recent relative paper at nature.com/nmeth/journal/v7/n9/abs
    Analysis of microtubule dynamic instability using a plus-end growth marker
    Alexandre Matov, Kathryn Applegate, Praveen Kumar, Claudio Thoma, Wilhelm Krek, Gaudenz Danuser & Torsten Wittmann

    Nature Methods
    Volume: 7, Pages: 761–768
    Year published:
    (2010)
    DOI:
    doi:10.1038/nmeth.1493
    Received
    12 March 2010
    Accepted
    11 July 2010
    Published online
    22 August 2010

    Abstract
    Regulation of microtubule dynamics is essential for many cell biological processes and is likely to be variable between different subcellular regions. We describe a computational approach to analyze microtubule dynamics by detecting growing microtubule plus ends. Our algorithm tracked all EB1-EGFP comets visible in an image time-lapse sequence allowing the detection of spatial patterns of microtubule dynamics. We introduce spatiotemporal clustering of EB1-EGFP growth tracks to infer microtubule behaviors during phases of pause and shortening. We validated the algorithm by comparing the results to data for manually tracked, homogeneously labeled microtubules and by analyzing the effects of well-characterized inhibitors of microtubule polymerization dynamics. We used our method to analyze spatial variations of intracellular microtubule dynamics in migrating epithelial cells.
    And another paper, also in Nature, at nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7296/abs
    Myosin II contributes to cell-scale actin network treadmilling through network disassembly

    Cyrus A. Wilson, Mark A. Tsuchida, Greg M. Allen, Erin L. Barnhart, Kathryn T. Applegate, Patricia T. Yam, Lin Ji, Kinneret Keren, Gaudenz Danuser & Julie A. Theriot

    Nature
    Volume: 465 , Pages: 373–377
    Date published:
    (20 May 2010)
    DOI:
    doi:10.1038/nature08994
    Received
    22 June 2007
    Accepted
    04 March 2010

    Abstract
    Crawling locomotion of eukaryotic cells is achieved by a process dependent on the actin cytoskeleton1: protrusion of the leading edge requires assembly of a network of actin filaments2, which must be disassembled at the cell rear for sustained motility. Although ADF/cofilin proteins have been shown to contribute to actin disassembly3, it is not clear how activity of these locally acting proteins could be coordinated over the distance scale of the whole cell. Here we show that non-muscle myosin II has a direct role in actin network disassembly in crawling cells. In fish keratocytes undergoing motility, myosin II is concentrated in regions at the rear with high rates of network disassembly. Activation of myosin II by ATP in detergent-extracted cytoskeletons results in rear-localized disassembly of the actin network. Inhibition of myosin II activity and stabilization of actin filaments synergistically impede cell motility, suggesting the existence of two disassembly pathways, one of which requires myosin II activity. Our results establish the importance of myosin II as an enzyme for actin network disassembly; we propose that gradual formation and reorganization of an actomyosin network provides an intrinsic destruction timer, enabling long-range coordination of actin network treadmilling in motile cells.
    You can also read these two papers at the relative Nature.com links above, however these are not free. The entire papers can be purchased for $32 (USD) each or you may be able to log in via your institution or Athens. Otherwise you will have to subscribe at $150/year (USD).

    So there you go 'Cnance' a 4 page scientific paper for free and only $64 for the other two papers (11 pages). Only 15 pages total.

    Please read them and then get back to us.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by nomaxim; 10-20-2010 at 12:20 PM.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Ken Miller has a good takedown of the IC/Bacterial Flagellum argument (formerly the Mouse Trap argument).

    http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/414/...llum-debunked/

    Complete with pictures and video!
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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Cnance, really?....I mean, really???

    So, after being taken to task for failing to acknowledge and understand pre-cambrian fossils...and then promising to be more unbiased regarding science, you drag out the the Disco Institutes' LONG DEBUNKED argument for Irreducible Complexity?

    Come on!...you can find the explanation in less than 30 seconds. That is, if you're really searching.

    I really don't believe your quest for knowledge is sincere.

    Oh, and another point, Magic = Intelligent Design (ID) as there is no proof of ID or a designer. Evolution is an observed natural process. It does not require Magic.
    Read the posting by Applegate.

    It infers that flagellum has happened without an explanation. What struck me about her answer to Dembski and Behe's analysis of flagellum is that she failed to provide an explanation. As a matter of fact the subheading to her explanation, is "Natural forces work "like magic." She says the process "functions automatically according to known natural laws." No intelligence required.

    Thus, we have flagellum happening "automatically according to known natural laws." What does that mean?

    If there's a scientific explanation, what is it?

    From my research, I find no explanation for flagellum e v o l v ing from natural process by chance alone. I have found speculations that it may have happened that way, but speculation and proof are not the same.

    Look at all of those moving parts, so perfectly coordinated for optimum efficiency.

    I see that I need to read Nomaxim's long posting on flagellum.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-21-2010 at 01:18 AM.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    DO YOUR F'NG RESEARCH!!! SCIENCE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THE BACTERIAL FLAGELLUM HAE *****ED....HOLY SHIT!!!

    You're a day late and many dollars short.....
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    From my research, I find no explanation for flagellum e v o l v ing from natural process by chance alone. I have found speculations that it may have happened that way, but speculation and proof are not the same.

    Look at all of those moving parts, so perfectly coordinated for optimum efficiency.
    Argument from incredulity...nothing more.


    You begin every question assuming god is the answer and then demand evidence to the contrary. But, there is no proof or evidence of a god. You really are a god of the gaps christian apologetic. Intellectually Dishonest.
    Last edited by LogicallyYours; 10-21-2010 at 01:12 AM.
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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    So.. is everything you can't explain without researching it "like magic"?

    How many arguements will have "God did it" being the default? Who set your God as the defalt anyway? Why YOUR chosen God and not one of the ten's of thousands of other Gods?

    You do know that you not knowing how something works is not proof for God, right? Cause there are a lot of things you don't know that other people do know. You're not making proof for God with all these silly claims, all you are doing is prooving you don't know much.

    Your hallucinations appear to be getting worse. Have you considered seeing a psychiatrist? These do not seem healthy and I am worried about you.
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    So.. is everything you can't explain without researching it "like magic"?

    How many arguements will have "God did it" being the default? Who set your God as the defalt anyway? Why YOUR chosen God and not one of the ten's of thousands of other Gods?



    You do know that you not knowing how something works is not proof for God, right? Cause there are a lot of things you don't know that other people do know. You're not making proof for God with all these silly claims, all you are doing is prooving you don't know much.

    Your hallucinations appear to be getting worse. Have you considered seeing a psychiatrist? These do not seem healthy and I am worried about you.
    I see anyone who believes in God or has supernatural visions or dreams is crazy. I got it. That makes all of the prophets crazy.

    Why do you continually insist I am required to provide factual evidence for God's existence? I've insisted it can't be done. Your assume my criticism of evolution is because I believe in God. Belief is not necessarily related to criticism. I could believe that magic explains the origin of things, but that doesn't make me a theist.

    I've decided to discontinue posting on the religious thread. It's a waste of time. There is little civil debate and instead of logic or rational rebuttals, I get hostile remarks or wise cracks such as "intellectually dishonest."

    Also, while I remain objective about evolution, I continue to find lack of evidence. In particular, I find evolutionist arguments for microorganisms, especially flagellum, devoid of facts. I know it's a problem of finding evidence in fossil records millions of years old. However, rather than admitting there's no evidence, extremist on scam.com come back with insults or arguments without facts to support their bias.

    I will continue with my independent study of evolution, but it is useless to debate anything here. As an example, while all of you claimed there is ample evidence in the Precambrian fossil record of specie formation, the fossil record doesn't support that assertion. A theory must have facts.

    I believe much hostility is related to religion. The bias is obvious. If you believe in God, your stupid. No argument required here, your just plan stupid.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-22-2010 at 12:29 PM.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I see anyone who believes in God or has supernatural visions or dreams is crazy. I got it. That makes all of the prophets crazy.
    Ahh, NO it's just your insistence on your god (no capitalization intended) as the only god shows complete and utter disdain for any other beliefs. You are a religious bigot. After all the below image depicts the Norse God Thor (Wiki) whose symbol is a hammer. And you have refused to even discuss how you own Christian Scriptures lend credibility to the claim in the image. The below image is not meant to just insult you, but to make you stop and actually think.



    Oh, and a atheist does not believe in a god(s). So a atheist would not believe in the god Thor.

    I've decided to discontinue posting on the religious thread. It's a waste of time. There is little civil debate and instead of logic or rational rebuttals, I get wise cracks such as "intellectually dishonest."
    Then quit lying and pretending to 'just make mistakes'.

    Also, while I remain objective about evolution, I continue to find lack of evidence. In particular, I find evolutionist arguments for microorganisms, especially flagellum, devoid of facts. I know it's a problem of finding evidence in fossil records millions of years old. However, rather than admitting there's no evidence, extremist on scam.com come back with insults or arguments without facts to support their bias.
    Just in the last few week you claimed this about microorganisms,
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Show the evidence that refutes "no prior fossil record for Cambrian species." Microorganisms don't count.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Microorganisms don't count!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Here it is again. Microorganisms don't count. We could go on from here, but Mr. Arrogance is incapable of admitting a mistake.
    Funny how microorganisms don't count until you need them too. A bacteria is beyond a doubt a microorganism.

    I will continue with my independent study of evolution, but it is useless to debate anything here. As an example, while all of you claimed there is ample evidence in the Precambrian fossil record of specie formation, the fossil record doesn't support that assertion. A theory must have facts.
    Then I suggest you learn that words have different meanings depending on their context.

    For example;
    merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
    Definition of THEORY
    1
    : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

    2
    : abstract thought : speculation

    3
    : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art

    4
    a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory

    5
    : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena

    6
    a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : conjecture c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
    The 'Theory of Evolution' falls under definition number 5. After all the Theories of Gravity, Thermodynamics, Nuclear Attraction, ..etc all do. Unless of course you wish to take the stance that the Theory of Gravity falls under definition number 2.
    I believe much hostility is related to religion. The bias is obvious. If you believe in God, your stupid. No argument required here, your just plan stupid.
    Again, NO. The only real bias shown in any of the threads you have started is by you. Do you really think that you are the only person to come onto this forum (Scam.com) and make these assertions?

    Your not.

    The average is around 2-3 a year, and you all bring up the same arguments. Most odd is that these arguments almost always fallow the same order. In fact, the 'Flagellum' shows up in the following threads;
    Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design started 20OCT2010.
    Evolution - The Biggest Scam Of All Time started 22APR2009.
    If God Exists Why ...... started 5JUL2007.
    Religion is Fake started 5FEB2008.
    One more time... ID vs Evolution stared 4JUN2008.
    Evolution started 24AUG2006.
    Ken Miller on evolution started on 28MAY2006.

    In over 4 years there have been 7 threads about the 'Flagellum'. The thing is that your ID (Intelligent Design) arguments about the flagellum have not really changed since around 2004. The answers provided by science have changed. Why? Because science ev0lves, changes and adopts to new information, where ID's arguments stay the same.

    And why don't the questions provided by ID change? Simple, because ID already has a answer 'God did it'. So therefore, you are not looking for answers to questions, but answers to support your answer.



    Did you really think that your plan would work?

    PS
    Thanks for stopping by.

    Please don't let the door hit you in the ass.
    Last edited by nomaxim; 10-22-2010 at 12:32 PM.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by nomaxim View Post
    Ahh, NO it's just your insistence on your god (no capitalization intended) as the only god shows complete and utter disdain for any other beliefs. You are a religious bigot. After all the below image depicts the Norse God Thor (Wiki) whose symbol is a hammer. And you have refused to even discuss how you own Christian Scriptures lend credibility to the claim in the image. The below image is not meant to just insult you, but to make you stop and actually think.



    Oh, and a atheist does not believe in a god(s). So a atheist would not believe in the god Thor.

    Then quit lying and pretending to 'just make mistakes'.

    Just in the last few week you claimed this about microorganisms,Funny how microorganisms don't count until you need them too. A bacteria is beyond a doubt a microorganism.

    Then I suggest you learn that words have different meanings depending on their context.

    For example;
    merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theoryThe 'Theory of Evolution' falls under definition number 5. After all the Theories of Gravity, Thermodynamics, Nuclear Attraction, ..etc all do. Unless of course you wish to take the stance that the Theory of Gravity falls under definition number 2. Again, NO. The only real bias shown in any of the threads you have started is by you. Do you really think that you are the only person to come onto this forum (Scam.com) and make these assertions?

    Your not.

    The average is around 2-3 a year, and you all bring up the same arguments. Most odd is that these arguments almost always fallow the same order. In fact, the 'Flagellum' shows up in the following threads;
    Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design started 20OCT2010.
    Evolution - The Biggest Scam Of All Time started 22APR2009.
    If God Exists Why ...... started 5JUL2007.
    Religion is Fake started 5FEB2008.
    One more time... ID vs Evolution stared 4JUN2008.
    Evolution started 24AUG2006.
    Ken Miller on evolution started on 28MAY2006.

    In over 4 years there have been 7 threads about the 'Flagellum'. The thing is that your ID (Intelligent Design) arguments about the flagellum have not really changed since around 2004. The answers provided by science have changed. Why? Because science ev0lves, changes and adopts to new information, where ID's arguments stay the same.

    And why don't the questions provided by ID change? Simple, because ID already has a answer 'God did it'. So therefore, you are not looking for answers to questions, but answers to support your answer.



    Did you really think that your plan would work?

    PS
    Thanks for stopping by.

    Please don't let the door hit you in the ass.
    Part of what you claim is true. However, I don't like being called a liar. I said I made mistakes because that's what I did. I am not a liar. Well, there is no need to continue this discussion, it will only get worse. I am sure you'll come up with even more serious offenses.

    What is particularly irritating about your rant is the bit about other religions. Why should I honor other religions? Is there some law or edict requiring me to do so? I would not be faithful to my believes if I did. The Lord God specifically told Israel not to worship pagan gods.

    Just because I brought up criticisms of evolution here on scam.com doesn't mean the issues have been resolved. I think the atheist varsity on scam.com is better qualified. As as team of one, I hardly can go up against such a formidable foe. If you recall, I admitted to a lack of knowledge and I've learned from exchanges. However, I will not submit to insults and abuse.

    It is amazing what people get away with when they don't have to confront the person face to face.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-22-2010 at 12:58 PM.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I see anyone who believes in God or has supernatural visions or dreams is crazy. I got it. That makes all of the prophets crazy.
    .
    That's not it at all.

    You're not mentally ill because you believe in God, you're in trouble because you are hearing voices and having vivid dreams that you can't tell apart from reality.

    That can be any number of mental diseases that have serious long term effects if not treated quickly. For your own sake you need to get checked out.

    I honestly don't care what you write or what you believe, but you need to take care of your mental health for your own sake.
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    That's not it at all.

    You're not mentally ill because you believe in God, you're in trouble because you are hearing voices and having vivid dreams that you can't tell apart from reality.

    That can be any number of mental diseases that have serious long term effects if not treated quickly. For your own sake you need to get checked out.

    I honestly don't care what you write or what you believe, but you need to take care of your mental health for your own sake.
    I realize your a descent person and you're concerned for my well being. I appreciate that. In the past other people expressed similar concerns, so your observations are merited. I can't go into detail about my past. I'll just say this. After my first episode with God, it took me several years to recover. I won't tell all of what happened, but it was an emotional roller coaster.

    Your comment about me not being able "tell apart from reality" is not correct. What I mean is compared to other dreams they're not real. Those dreams are too vivid to be normal dreams. I hear voices in my dreams, but not when I'm awake. I should mention that since that episode when I was a young adult, I've lead a normal life.

    What makes me strange is what I believe about God. Most of what I've posted about God come from dreams. As it turns out, I'm the only person with such beliefs. That puts me at odds with religion and the rest of the world.

    What I know benefits no one. I've always had an obsession to know the truth about God. The reality of what I know has no redeeming value for humankind. If you are a Christian, it's best to stick with the "good news message." If your an atheist, it makes no difference, we all suffer the same fate.

    Thanks for you interest.

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    Re: Flagellum: Magic or Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I realize your a descent person and you're concerned for my well being. I appreciate that. In the past other people expressed similar concerns, so your observations are merited. I can't go into detail about my past. I'll just say this. After my first episode with God, it took me several years to recover. I won't tell all of what happened, but it was an emotional roller coaster.

    Your comment about me not being able "tell apart from reality" is not correct. What I mean is compared to other dreams they're not real. Those dreams are too vivid to be normal dreams. I hear voices in my dreams, but not when I'm awake. I should mention that since that episode when I was a young adult, I've lead a normal life.
    I think it is accurate and many people with mental illness lead totally normal lives.

    The problem is that there is no observable reality of your dreams, but you believe them because they are really vivid.

    Overly vivid dreams themselves are an indication of something going wrong in your mind, but that aside, you believe something exists that cannot be observed in any way because you dreamed about it.

    Would it really hurt to get checked out? Most medical plans cover at least a psychological assessment. It'll probably be less than an hour of your life. At the very least it would educate you on the inner working of your own psyche.

    If someone notices a bump on your face and thinks it looks like melanoma, wouldn't you want to go check it out? They might be wrong and so might I, but your response to your dream is rather odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    What makes me strange is what I believe about God. Most of what I've posted about God come from dreams. As it turns out, I'm the only person with such beliefs. That puts me at odds with religion and the rest of the world.

    What I know benefits no one. I've always had an obsession to know the truth about God. The reality of what I know has no redeeming value for humankind. If you are a Christian, it's best to stick with the "good news message." If your an atheist, it makes no difference, we all suffer the same fate.

    Thanks for you interest.
    I think that's where you're spot on. We all suffer the exact same fate, even after death. It would be virtually impossible to guess the correct flavor AND brand of religion that God wants. In the end, we will all be wrong, if the God even exists. I can't believe a loving God could allow that.
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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