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  1. #33
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    my answer on post #25 to Cnance was in relation to Christ's body and soul being "assumed" into heaven, and how this premise breaks every logical tenet...it DOESN'T happen..the laws governing death and decaying of the flesh reflect logic and reason...
    Yes, I hear you say it doesn't happen, that's ok, many people say many things, but still, you have no proof hat it did not happen. And, of course, there are no laws governing death and decay that are any more real than the law concerning death in the bible. In fact, they both fit together perfectly, because they are one and the same. Again, the reason JC could arise was because he did not sin, which Paul the Apostle says is unbelief in God. His body was not infected by the disease all of us have, that disease of death.

    proof of Christ's going to heaven, or even proof heaven is needed by those who make this claim...


    I'm not really interested in those who make this claim, I'm interested in this document, that seems to hit everything else dead on the head, making the claim. So...as far as we can know the truth...I'm sticking with the document that says not only , is heaven Jesus Christ's home, but Ghost Dog Christ's home, Tig Christ's home, ect Christ's home, it is all our homes. According to the document, we are here for a short time to experience death, before heading back home. Everything I see in nature seems to confirm that too, we are here for a short time, we experience death, then head back home to the one who made all that is. We, mankind, is what all of the universe was made for, to cater to us. What in nature teaches you different?

    I see where I said that to you. The definition of a "Personal God" is one who is a Self-Conscious Being. One who would be interested in "His creations." The one spoken of in the bible that you talk about on this website....you don't believe in the "God of the bible?"
    OK. Thanks for clearing that up, maybe you have before but I only occasionally read the forum and may have missed that. Yes, I believe in the God of the Bible, crazy dude he be, I love em too, as much as I know how.

    PROOF, PLEASE.....the bible is a nice book filled with pleasant and not-so-pleasant stories....and is a law book, according to doojie, whom I believe is correct in calling it a law book, but PROOF of the bible as a factual, effective, and literal document of supernatural activities that transpired between a God and His people, is needed before you or anyone can claim these events as "truthful and accurate."
    Of course, I, myself, cannot give you that proof. But will be happy to point you to the dude who can. His name is Dad, but not the dad of your dead and decaying body, but the Dad of you, who you really are. He gave us all the proof we need, he created everything, then wrote a letter to us about it. Check it out for yourself and see if it fits. When I check it out, it has fit perfectly. I still check it out, daily, so far, it's been right on target, at least....to my fragile little mind.

    Now, you may say, "oh, Scientist have said it doesn't fit", but then it would be you that base your beliefs on theory, not fact. And yes, all we have are beliefs, we will never alter the facts.


    If I write a check and date it I am verifying that I want to buy something, or pay a bill, not that Christ was the son Of God. The date thing is only a system laid down by decree in 1582 by Pope Gregory XIII to keep track of the years. Yes, it starts in the year that the supposed Christ was born, but the Chinese also have a system that works very well for them, and could've worked for us too, had we chosen it. The Mayans also had a good system. No proof of a God here either....because this is belief, not proof.... Again....PROOF PLEASE
    Yes, there are other dating methods, but ours is not based on something that we think is a fairy tale (not saying others are), like Santa Claus, or the turtle who crawled out of the ocean with the world on it's back, it is based on something that is believed to be true, an actual event. There are many things that you cannot prove, but that you believe anyway Ghost Dog, you use the evidence the best you can. You cannot prove that we don't live eternally, yet you believe you don't. Funny, ain't it?


    .....beliefs, beliefs, beliefs...everything that you just stated is about a belief system.....you only have faith in belief.....no facts are present. If we built bridges on beliefs ONLY, and did nothing to support these beliefs with provable FACTS, we would all be at the bottom of some ravine....which is where I feel that people who cannot support their beliefs with FACTS and LOGIC have fallen into.
    And what have you done Ghost Dog? If you only live by what can be seen and observed, which I guess is what you call proof, then you will never be able to see the past or plan for the future, if you do, then now you are living by belief, and not your definition of proof. All peoples have a belief. You also.

    You fill your lives with promises and wishes, instead of learning about your self....your inner life....expecting some help from an unknown "Supreme Being." The Ancients said it best: WAKE UP INSIDE! We only have ourselves and each other in this life ...that is all....we, as humans, must face this truth, and make the best of this "FACT.".......(Sigh)...More conjecture....not relevant but possible, again, absolutely no proof...
    I chuckle, present tense, inner self? What proof have you of your inner self? What proof have you that all there is is us? That there is no one to help us, and that is not presently taking care of us, even keeping us from stumping our toe if it is not his will? Proof please, not just your belief. Seems as if you are consumed with yourself, did you not come from somewhere? I see you have the same idea of those right before the great flood, eat and drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, we die.

    Sorry bro, evidence points directly that you have eternal life. That inner self will never die, it is Christ, the very child of God.
    whack it:judges:

  2. #34
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by nomaxim View Post
    I'm pretty sure Kryten knows.

    Smeg head!

    Well. I'm quite certain the heaven you speak of is not real. However, Silicon Heaven is.

  3. #35
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    Could God make a boulder too large for him to lift?
    I don't believe it's possible because God has no human form and therefore the rules of gravity and weight don't apply. However, as Jesus, God temporarily assumed a human form and then returned to His spiritual body (non-material).

    As Jesus, he allowed men to murder him, but I believe it was to test humans and to fulfill his promise to Israel.

    God could make the rock disappear just has He made the universe appear.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-10-2010 at 07:02 PM.

  4. #36
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    Lord_jag is offline I am God because I say I am. Prove me wrong.
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I don't believe it's possible because God has no human form and therefore the rules of gravity and weight don't apply. However, as Jesus, God temporarily assumed a human form and then returned to His spiritual body (non-material).

    As Jesus, he allowed men to murder him, but I believe it was to test humans and to fulfill his promise to Israel.

    God could make the rock disappear just has He made the universe appear.
    So if I, a mere mortal, can conceive of something God cannot do then why is it that, when questioned, you assume God can do something for no other reason than that he is God?

    I didn't ask if he could make it disappear. I asked if he could lift it.

    Jesus allowed people to murder him because he didn't have a choice in the matter.
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

  5. #37
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    So if I, a mere mortal, can conceive of something God cannot do then why is it that, when questioned, you assume God can do something for no other reason than that he is God?

    I didn't ask if he could make it disappear. I asked if he could lift it.

    Jesus allowed people to murder him because he didn't have a choice in the matter.
    I admit defeat concerning a direct answer because I can't conceive God having such a problem, but nevertheless, I'll answer it with some qualifications.

    How about the entire universe which God created. Assuming all of that mass, could he lift it?

    I don't believe God would approach the heavy mass as a challenge, not like a human. In a way the universe is a heavy burden for God. Once created, what will be the final outcome. Here, I assume what I've stated before, that God created the universe as a prison for Satan.

    For God, the heavy burden of Satan and the universe will be take from his shoulders when the universe self destructs. The universe, being subject to material forces and time, will come to a finite solution. I believe it will self-destruct in the near future or else expand and contract to become nothing. Those are two different possibilities. I believe Revelations predicts the final outcome, in which case the end will come soon.

    Yes, Jesus (God) allowed men to murder him, but it was necessary for His plan. I believe God was obligated because of His nature to offer humans salvation, but it had to be on His terms. I believe Rev. 11 is the true story of what happened. I know that know because I had a vision that confirmed it.

    It is not a happy ending for humankind. I'm reluctant to post anymore. Who will ever believe it. It's too strange to be true. There are too many reasons not to believe it.

  6. #38
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    If God could do anything, he could create a rock too big to lift. But if he couldn't lift it, that would mean there are things he couldn't do.

    The question simplified is, can God do that which he cannot do?

    From all available evidence, there is nothing that can both be and not be at the same time, under the same circumstances. Existence does not negate existence. Either it exists, or it doesn't exist.

    If God exists, therefore, we would have to conclude that things which do exist in accordance with God must exist in non-contradiction of God.

    That, however, tells us nothing at all, since it is impossible for us to decide what is absolutely impossible. Any attempt to define God in such a fashion would require that there can exist no knowledge outside our capacity to know.

    Unfortunately, that is not the case, at least not in any predictive fashion.

    All mechanical, axiomatic attempts to define truth must necessarily result in an infinity of undecidable propositions, or "gaps" that cannot be bridged in any decision procedure.

    By human knowledge, therefore, can God create a rock too heavy for him to lift?

    Lift by what means? Simply getting his shoulders under it and giving it a heave? Developing scientific techniques that would extend his power until he could lift it?

    If we are going for the latter, God would have to be certain that he could create something for which there is no way his knowledge could ever extend to the point that he actually could move the rock. He would have to know what he cannot know, and that would be impossible.

    This is merely a variation of another argument: if God is all knowing, is your salvation dependent on your free will choice?

    Obviously not, since God already knows what choice you will make. A christian who argue for free will must necessarily argue that God is not capable of knowing certain things, that God's knowledge can extend no further than your knowledge.

    The christian will argue that either God does not know, or that God chooses not to know, or that foreknowdge doesn't imply control.

    By that last argument, therefore, it would have to be admitted that God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift, because his knowledge would be limited in the same sense that it is limited in regard to a christian's free will salvation. He could create a rock that he could not lift "now" and his knowledge would not permit him to know whether he could lift it in the future. The future would be uncertain.

    A christian who argue for free will would have to reach this conclusion.

    OTOH, the answer is undecidable because we are dealing with the idea of an absolute, such as omniscience or omnipotence. In any process of defining the infinite in terms of absolutes, we run head-on into Godel's theorem. The answer is undecidable. We don't know if we can know.

    All free will for humans, therefore, is based on uncertainty.

  7. #39
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    If God could do anything, he could create a rock too big to lift. But if he couldn't lift it, that would mean there are things he couldn't do.

    The question simplified is, can God do that which he cannot do?

    From all available evidence, there is nothing that can both be and not be at the same time, under the same circumstances. Existence does not negate existence. Either it exists, or it doesn't exist.

    If God exists, therefore, we would have to conclude that things which do exist in accordance with God must exist in non-contradiction of God.

    That, however, tells us nothing at all, since it is impossible for us to decide what is absolutely impossible. Any attempt to define God in such a fashion would require that there can exist no knowledge outside our capacity to know.

    Unfortunately, that is not the case, at least not in any predictive fashion.

    All mechanical, axiomatic attempts to define truth must necessarily result in an infinity of undecidable propositions, or "gaps" that cannot be bridged in any decision procedure.

    By human knowledge, therefore, can God create a rock too heavy for him to lift?

    Lift by what means? Simply getting his shoulders under it and giving it a heave? Developing scientific techniques that would extend his power until he could lift it?

    If we are going for the latter, God would have to be certain that he could create something for which there is no way his knowledge could ever extend to the point that he actually could move the rock. He would have to know what he cannot know, and that would be impossible.

    This is merely a variation of another argument: if God is all knowing, is your salvation dependent on your free will choice?

    Obviously not, since God already knows what choice you will make. A christian who argue for free will must necessarily argue that God is not capable of knowing certain things, that God's knowledge can extend no further than your knowledge.

    The christian will argue that either God does not know, or that God chooses not to know, or that foreknowdge doesn't imply control.

    By that last argument, therefore, it would have to be admitted that God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift, because his knowledge would be limited in the same sense that it is limited in regard to a christian's free will salvation. He could create a rock that he could not lift "now" and his knowledge would not permit him to know whether he could lift it in the future. The future would be uncertain.

    A christian who argue for free will would have to reach this conclusion.

    OTOH, the answer is undecidable because we are dealing with the idea of an absolute, such as omniscience or omnipotence. In any process of defining the infinite in terms of absolutes, we run head-on into Godel's theorem. The answer is undecidable. We don't know if we can know.

    All free will for humans, therefore, is based on uncertainty.
    "By human knowledge, therefore, can God create a rock too heavy for him to lift?"

    I believe this is the key to the problem.

    I agree and my answer was based on human knowledge of what I think God could and could not do. It is a philosophical debate whereby we cannot argue about trees in a forest if we cannot see them. We can only assume there are trees in a forest. What if the forest is an illusion? What then? How can we prove a forest exists? We must venture into it to find out. In the same way, we have to prove that God exists, that he conforms to human rules for lifting boulders, and that He wants to play our game.

  8. #40
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    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    "By human knowledge, therefore, can God create a rock too heavy for him to lift?"

    I believe this is the key to the problem.

    I agree and my answer was based on human knowledge of what I think God could and could not do. It is a philosophical debate whereby we cannot argue about trees in a forest if we cannot see them. We can only assume there are trees in a forest. What if the forest is an illusion? What then? How can we prove a forest exists? We must venture into it to find out. In the same way, we have to prove that God exists, that he conforms to human rules for lifting boulders, and that He wants to play our game.
    Precisely, but if God is playing our game, there is no reason why we cannot define the rules by which the game is played, yet we can't.

    The logical conclusion, then, is that God is operating according to a system to which he alone is privy.

    Or as the song says, "And God only knows, and God makes his plans. The information's unavailable to the mortal man".

  9. #41

    Re: How To Get To Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Rimmer View Post
    So what does this have to do with evidence of anything after death?


    Still no evidence of what you say is true. There is nothing in the natural universe that supports your claim of an afterlife or heaven. Let alone a location of heaven. For all we know its the same as the big rock candy mountain. Id rather go there then heaven.

    What is it you supposedly do in heaven anyways?



    Essence eh? Sorta like homeopathic remedies? Your talking blather and have nothing to back up your claims on anything you say except the etherial garbage shindlers use to give people false hope and make them poorer.
    You keep asking, Where is heaven? What do you do in heaven? I don't know and I don't care. I don't believe in god, let alone heaven. I was just making a point when I mentioned that is how people are conditioned and lead to believe that if they lead a good life they go to heaven after they die.

    So just what do you believe? Do you believe that when a person dies that that are just stuffed in the ground or cremated? That's it. Game over. What do you think happens to the soul? Do you even believe that there is a soul? If so what do you think happens to that soul after death? Where does it go?

    You want proof, do your own web-search. It's not my fault that you failed to understand what I was talking about. Maybe, it's because you are not open minded. I'm not wasting my time trying to convince someone like you.
    Last edited by Knight-mare; 10-13-2010 at 01:53 PM.
    "The mind bends and twists in order to deal with the horrors of life...
    ...sometimes the mind bends so much it snaps in two".

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