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    If bad things happen, does it mean God hates you?

    Many Christians tend to think that and call it "acts of God",
    but apparently that's not true in the case of Job.

    The book of Job gives us insight on what we don't see in the conflict between good and evil. Basically, Satan accuses Job of being good only out of convenience and God allows Satan to afflict him in order to prove Satan wrong. In other words, God was trusting that Job would trust in Him.

    God apparently allows the devil to do what ever he wants... Christians say it's all part of the conflict between good and evil, and yet God seems so passive. Perhaps there really is something we don't see.

    When we look at early Christian history, the Christians who were supposed be the "good guys" had to always confront persecution, first from the Jews, then from the Romans. When Christianity began to conform with the world, leading to decline of Rome and basically a union of church and state, that's when the "Christians" became the persecutors. They became more like Rome and less like Jesus.

    Becoming a Christian in modern times will not necessarily make your life any easier and can never really make it easier unless when conformed with the world. It's when there's conformity to the world, there's little or no conflict. The "prosperity gospel" is all lies!
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 10-06-2010 at 03:26 AM.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    What is your definition of bad? You seemed not to define it in your post.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Rimmer View Post
    What is your definition of bad? You seemed not to define it in your post.
    I mean bad in the sense of unfavorable circumstances... circumstances that feel disagreeable.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    No... it doesn't mean he hates you... he just doesn't care about your or he doesn't exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    I like the book of Job. It has deep insights. Job's problem, which neither he nor his friends could see, was his own sense of righteousness. He kept saying he didn't deserve what had happened, and to his credit, refused to "curse God".

    The end message states things well. Where were you, asked God, when I laid the plans for the universe?

    Assuming there is a God, it would be foolish to assume that our understanidng would even begin to compare with such a being, which cancels all religious self righteousness.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    I like the book of Job. It has deep insights. Job's problem, which neither he nor his friends could see, was his own sense of righteousness. He kept saying he didn't deserve what had happened, and to his credit, refused to "curse God".

    The end message states things well. Where were you, asked God, when I laid the plans for the universe?

    Assuming there is a God, it would be foolish to assume that our understanidng would even begin to compare with such a being, which cancels all religious self righteousness.
    No. I couldn't disagree more.

    Where was he? He was in the future. Right where God put him.

    As if his input would have been considered anyways. Consider this: A group of people abduct you, tie you to a chair in an abandoned warehouse. They then go next door and decide how they will torture you. As you scream no, please no! as the torture progresses you move on to pleading with them and asking why they are doing this. They suggest that you where you were during the torture planning meeting??? You think they would have listened in the slightest if you suggested not torturing you and letting you go instead?

    God had every knowledge of what he was going to do to Job at every step of his creation. Before Job was anywhere near being conceived, God not only knew every decision Job was going to make, but every thing He was going to do to Job.

    Pointing out that Job wasn't there to provide input at the moment of creation is as ludicrous as you providing input to your abductors about your torture sessions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post

    As if his input would have been considered anyways. Consider this: A group of people abduct you, tie you to a chair in an abandoned warehouse. They then go next door and decide how they will torture you. As you scream no, please no! as the torture progresses you move on to pleading with them and asking why they are doing this. They suggest that you where you were during the torture planning meeting???

    You're arguing two different categories for a very simple reason: your example forces you to reduce human knowledge(the torturers) to God's knowledge, since you conclusion has accepted God's perfect foreknowledge, including the fact that Job did not suffer punishment til death, but had his wealth restored to a greater degree than before.

    The torturers you use as an example, are not in any sense omniscient. The wager was that if Satan was allowed to tempt him, Job would finally curse God or renounce him. God took the bet. Being all-knowing, he had to win.

    However, the problem with Job was a problem that Satan could not see. Job lived by rules and standards so flawless that all his friends could find no mechanical, logical reason why he should suffer. Job defended himself purely on linear arguments of righteousness, assuming as christian religions do, that adherence to human concepts justify them above others. Now to youe example of the torturers.

    You think they would have listened in the slightest if you suggested not torturing you and letting you go instead?
    Of course not, since their plan was to torture you all along, for no reason except they intended to do it. It was their actions, according to their intentions, where in Job's case, God merely let Satan place a bet which God knew he would win.

    God had every knowledge of what he was going to do to Job at every step of his creation. Before Job was anywhere near being conceived, God not only knew every decision Job was going to make, but every thing He was going to do to Job.
    Of course he did, and that is precisely the weakness of your argument. He knew Job's weakness, and what would be required for Job to recognize the flaw of his own self righteousness, a flaw which Satan could not see. Satan, therefore, merely added to the stature of Job's character and end up doing God's will.

    Pointing out that Job wasn't there to provide input at the moment of creation is as ludicrous as you providing input to your abductors about your torture sessions.
    Again, a flawed conclusion. If I knew of my torturers' intent, I'd blow their shit away and not worry about their sorry asses. In the same fashion, if i knew of God's plan and the intent of his plan, I could avoid suffering in any context, simply because I would be equal to God.

    Job's flaw, which he recognized, was self justification, the assumption that hs knowledge was equal to God.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You're arguing two different categories for a very simple reason: your example forces you to reduce human knowledge(the torturers) to God's knowledge, since you conclusion has accepted God's perfect foreknowledge, including the fact that Job did not suffer punishment til death, but had his wealth restored to a greater degree than before.

    The torturers you use as an example, are not in any sense omniscient. The wager was that if Satan was allowed to tempt him, Job would finally curse God or renounce him. God took the bet. Being all-knowing, he had to win.

    However, the problem with Job was a problem that Satan could not see. Job lived by rules and standards so flawless that all his friends could find no mechanical, logical reason why he should suffer. Job defended himself purely on linear arguments of righteousness, assuming as christian religions do, that adherence to human concepts justify them above others. Now to youe example of the torturers.



    Of course not, since their plan was to torture you all along, for no reason except they intended to do it. It was their actions, according to their intentions, where in Job's case, God merely let Satan place a bet which God knew he would win.



    Of course he did, and that is precisely the weakness of your argument. He knew Job's weakness, and what would be required for Job to recognize the flaw of his own self righteousness, a flaw which Satan could not see. Satan, therefore, merely added to the stature of Job's character and end up doing God's will.



    Again, a flawed conclusion. If I knew of my torturers' intent, I'd blow their shit away and not worry about their sorry asses. In the same fashion, if i knew of God's plan and the intent of his plan, I could avoid suffering in any context, simply because I would be equal to God.

    Job's flaw, which he recognized, was self justification, the assumption that hs knowledge was equal to God.
    It's strange because you think that Satan is not a part of God's creation. You think that Satan's ability to cause evil is not the direct result of God's knowledge.

    God created Satan knowing what bets he would pull and knowing what he would do to Job.

    In the end it was God's direct action that ended in Job being tortured.

    Just like the abductors, God's intention was for Job to be tortured. His off cuff remark of "where was he during creation" is another slap in the face. Job's protests at the point of creation would have every effect of your protests to the abductors.

    For the purpose of the analogy, the abductors are omniscient. They have all the power and you have none. They can decide where you go, what you do, when or if you will die. There is nothing you can do to resist them imposing their will on you. Just like God and his creations vs Job.

    You have every ability to blow the abductors away as you do to blow God's shit away. The abductors will never give you the opportunity to blow them away any more than God will give you the tools to hurt him in any way. Every aspect is a direct parallel.

    This section really makes me wonder how sadistic God must be to create a situation, create all the characters and then sit back and watch someone be tortured. This just wreaks like a boy burning ant's with a magnifier... no... A man having a boy and telling him to burn ants with a magnifier for his amusement.

    You come back and say it's not the man's fault since he isn't doing anything wrong. The ants have every ability to stop the man as Job did to stop God. The man has every ability to stop the boy as God had the ability to stop Satan. But he didn't. He sat back and laughed at the carnage.

    Every eay you look at it, this is one more example of how despicable and sadistic God is. It's a good thing it's all just a fairy tale because this is one monster I'm glad doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Lord_jag; 10-14-2010 at 03:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    It's strange because you think that Satan is not a part of God's creation. You think that Satan's ability to cause evil is not the direct result of God's knowledge.
    I never said that. That is Cnance's POV.

    God created Satan knowing what bets he would pull and knowing what he would do to Job.
    Obviously, which is supported by Isaiah 45:7, and Amos 3:6.

    In the end it was God's direct action that ended in Job being tortured.
    Of course, it could be no other way.

    Just like the abductors, God's intention was for Job to be tortured. His off cuff remark of "where was he during creation" is another slap in the face. Job's protests at the point of creation would have every effect of your protests to the abductors.
    The only similarity between the two is this: I and Job would both protest my goodness in the face of torture. If you accept the premises of the book of Job, which, if you intend to argue it you must, then notice that, in accordance with your statement, it was God who brought Job to Satan's attention(Job 1:8), to which Satan responded "he has good reason. You spoil him".

    Satan pointed out that Job would curse God if Satan were allowed to give him hell, so God said "Go for it". As you go further into the book, God admits his own responsibility in the matter, and Job places the blame at God's feet(Job 3:23). Job's own wife advised him to curse God, and he refused. First round went to God, and since he was all knowing, what else was to be expected?

    For the purpose of the analogy, the abductors are omniscient. They have all the power and you have none. They can decide where you go, what you do, when or if you will die. There is nothing you can do to resist them imposing their will on you. Just like God and his creations vs Job.
    And to all intents an purposes, they would be doing God's will, as Isaiah 45:7 says. I was in the marines back during the Vietnam era, and to all intents and purposes, the marines were omniscient. I disagreed for moral reasons, told them to kiss my ass and deserted. The omniscient FBI brought me back, where I defended myself in a Court Martial, and not only won, but received an apology and a meritorious promotion from the marines.

    The difference here being the same as the differences between abductors and God. Abductors would give a shit about moral implications. They aren't there to hear your protests. They will torture you, and screw you if you don't like it.

    In my case, the marines admitted they weren't omniscient, and that I had legitimate issues on what they had done.

    Satan's issue with God was that if Job wasn't rewarded, if he actually suffered, he would curse God. Job refused. God, being all knowing, simply let Satan do God's will.

    You have every ability to blow the abductors away as you do to blow God's shit away. The abductors will never give you the opportunity to blow them away any more than God will give you the tools to hurt him in any way. Every aspect is a direct parallel.
    Actually, it's not. There is always a possibility you can escape from abductors, and even the possibility you can fight them to your own death if you can't escape. Since you conclude God's omnis cience, however, if he has decided you will not escape, you will not escape, and that's it. the parallel is not the same.


    This section really makes me wonder how sadistic God must be to create a situation, create all the characters and then sit back and watch someone be tortured.
    That was exactly Satan's argument, in a slightly different form. Let people suffer, let them be tortured, let them get no rewards, and watch how quickly they'll fold and curse the very idea of God.

    This just wreaks like a boy burning ant's with a magnifier... no... A man having a boy and telling him to burn ants with a magnifier for his amusement.
    Satan pointed out that all men had the same character flaw: don't reward them, don;t express your power so people can simply enjoy life without sacrifice, and they'll all say "screw you, God". That was the bet, and Satan lost.

    You come back and say it's not the man's fault since he isn't doing anything wrong. The ants have every ability to stop the man as Job did to stop God. The man has every ability to stop the boy as God had the ability to stop Satan. But he didn't. He sat back and laughed at the carnage.
    No, he actually rewarded Job for a lesson learned. Job 13:15: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: BUT I WILL MAINTAIN MINE OWN WAYS BEFORE HIM"

    Self justification.

    Job 27:5: "...I will not remove mine integrity from me. My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go. My heart shall not reproach me so long as I live".

    Again, God could see what Satan could not, since Satan was, as the bible says, "perfect in all thy ways". Satan was the essence of self justification.

    Every eay you look at it, this is one more example of how despicable and sadistic God is. It's a good thing it's all just a fairy tale because this is one monster I'm glad doesn't exist.
    In any case, God or no God, you still go through the same pains and sufferings. Assuming that God suddenly came to earth and made everybody happy, no more suffering, no crime permitted, everything done for our own good, and you'd hate God even more for being a tyrant who denies you freedom.

    You state exactly what Job said. "If I had been doing the blueprints, I'd have done better".

    Church and state have both been trying for centuries, and look what a mess they made.
    Last edited by doojie; 10-14-2010 at 04:26 AM.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    For Lord Jag's benefit, I'd like to expand on Job a bit. The most interesting flaw in human character is what the bible called self righteousness, but has later come to be known as Narcissism, which is basically the linear extension of one's self into the environment.

    Job' insistence on self justification, as I point out above, is a process by which one or more people take a concept of perfection and extend it until it included many more people. Once you have a sufficient number of people, you not only have a solid warmaking power, but you also have a resistant force against change.

    In factr, as Eric Hoffer pointed out, the urge to proselytize is an attempt to to show by conversion, that ours is indeed the one and only truth.

    It allows many people to operate according to the same perception of reality, and it allows for a machine-like obedience.

    As Philip Slater pointed out in "EarthWalk", however, a machine-like response had little value until men began to make war on each other.

    While that machine mentality has brought incredible propserity, it has also contributed to the growing power of coercion and war. The sinlge curse starting this is the inability to perceive a flaw in ourselves.

    In the decription of Lucifer, it was said that he was "perfcet in all thy ways, until iniquity was found". He had no process of self reference to check his own flaw.

    In the book of Job, it is precisebyl this same need of Job for self justification(Job 13:15, 27:5) that allowed him to be successful, but it also prevented him from seeing himself as being in need of change.

    The flaw of christianity is that we see this sense of "humility' as merely the need to listen and conform to leaders, to organize, proselytize, pay our share, and convert others.

    Come to think of it, politics does that too.

    That is also a lesson learned from Godel's theorem, which tells us that not even in the most formal, consistent, complex system, can we proceed as if there are no flaws in our system. Godel demonstrated by self reference that in any consistent axiomatic formal system of sufficient complexity, there exists undecidable propositions. IOW, there's always room for improvement, and we have to always be sure we're proceeding on the right track in the first place.

    A system that grows excessively large on assumptions of truth will eventually crash, like leavening or yeast will crash in a loaf once the ****** is consumed.

    The lesson from Genesis to Revelations is that the individual must be responsible for his/her own actions apart from the crowd, even when life ain't going so good, to be able to see the proper reference points and make proper change.

    Western religions are collectivist, governments are collectivists, and both seek to make us feel secure by taking care of us, which extends their power, and limits our ability to adapt.

    Job was able, at the last, to look at himself, see that he wasn;t perfect, that he could change, and that he needed to repent of his false sense of rightness.

    Because allowed Satan to do this, the lesson doubled back on Satan as well. Satan considered himself the equal of God, capable of ruling in God's place, a concept not unlike Job's assumptions about himself. While we may certainly rule ourselves, we are not the rulers of others, nor judges of their abilities in character.

    If God existed in such rules, we could program the rules and God could be a computer, whom we consult for every question by email.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    The difference here being the same as the differences between abductors and God. Abductors would give a shit about moral implications. They aren't there to hear your protests. They will torture you, and screw you if you don't like it.
    Why? If they did why are they abducting?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Satan's issue with God was that if Job wasn't rewarded, if he actually suffered, he would curse God. Job refused. God, being all knowing, simply let Satan do God's will.
    And... That was the best way God could think of to test His own self importance?

    Why does God give a crap what Satan says? God would know the truth, so the test is a poor excuse to allow such suffering. God already knows what the end result of the test would be. Why allow such torturing?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Actually, it's not. There is always a possibility you can escape from abductors, and even the possibility you can fight them to your own death if you can't escape. Since you conclude God's omnis cience, however, if he has decided you will not escape, you will not escape, and that's it. the parallel is not the same.
    No... You might think you can, but you can't. If they did their job well at all there is no chance for escape. You can't even cause your own death, even if it released you from your torture. You're tied to a chair.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    That was exactly Satan's argument, in a slightly different form. Let people suffer, let them be tortured, let them get no rewards, and watch how quickly they'll fold and curse the very idea of God.
    Actually... that's sounding like God's argument. There was no reason for it. It was uncalled for and he went ahead and let the torture happen anyway. Remember that God made Satan to do what he did. Satan is a little more than a tool in God's hand and carrying out his will.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Satan pointed out that all men had the same character flaw: don't reward them, don;t express your power so people can simply enjoy life without sacrifice, and they'll all say "screw you, God". That was the bet, and Satan lost.
    And... why did God make Satan say such a thing? To justify that it wasn't him torturing Job for his own guilty pleasure?

    God didn't need to torture someone to know what would happen if he did... So why create Satan and make this whole scenario just to beat on one guy? Was God unsure about his knowledge?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    In any case, God or no God, you still go through the same pains and sufferings. Assuming that God suddenly came to earth and made everybody happy, no more suffering, no crime permitted, everything done for our own good, and you'd hate God even more for being a tyrant who denies you freedom.
    Hey now there's a huge difference between taking away freedom and making a being whose sole purpose is to torture another creature you created.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You state exactly what Job said. "If I had been doing the blueprints, I'd have done better".
    And we're both probably right. Hindsight is a wonderful thing... Which is strange that a God with full knowledge of the future and the past would screw things up so horribly.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Church and state have both been trying for centuries, and look what a mess they made.
    Since when?

    The only thing church and state are interested in is making profits.

    And they do... buckets and buckets... They've paid out million in settlements with the people they molested and I haven't seen one church close yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    Why? If they did why are they abducting?
    Who knows? Ransom? They get off on it?

    And... That was the best way God could think of to test His own self importance?
    Since God already knew the outcome, it was no test. However, only by actual experience would Job see that he was flawed in his own self worth.

    Why does God give a crap what Satan says? God would know the truth, so the test is a poor excuse to allow such suffering. God already knows what the end result of the test would be. Why allow such torturing?
    We could assume that Job would have been created in such a perfect manner that he could simply sef-reference and make necesary corrections, but that was apparently the problem with Satan, biblically. He couldn't do it.

    No... You might think you can, but you can't. If they did their job well at all there is no chance for escape. You can't even cause your own death, even if it released you from your torture. You're tied to a chair.
    Your proposition includes an "if", which means that i was taken completely by surprise, I didn't notify someone else, etc. That's not omniscience. It must include an "if", whereas if od is all knowing, there is no if. It will be done exactly like that. Prisoners have escaped from Alcatraz, from POW camps, and from kidnappings. There's always the "if" in suich cases, where there is none regarding an omniscient God.

    Actually... that's sounding like God's argument. There was no reason for it. It was uncalled for and he went ahead and let the torture happen anyway. Remember that God made Satan to do what he did. Satan is a little more than a tool in God's hand and carrying out his will.
    Exactly. Job developed greater insights because Stan did God's will. Job;s situation improved because Satan did God's will.

    And... why did God make Satan say such a thing? To justify that it wasn't him torturing Job for his own guilty pleasure?
    Again, God could have made things so everybody knew what s/he needed to know, and avoid bad choices, act in perfect accordance with necessary trules and laws, like a robot. Instead, people adapt, they are not quite perfectly adapted, so they have to continually registetr feedback and change. That's what learning and self awareness is about.

    God didn't need to torture someone to know what would happen if he did... So why create Satan and make this whole scenario just to beat on one guy? Was God unsure about his knowledge?
    Apparently not, since he told Satan to go for it. What Job learned by experience, he incorporated by choice once he was aware. The issue here is one in which an individual may experience and learn, and then use that for future reference, or whether s/he is simply created in such a way that proper behavior is automatic.

    Hey now there's a huge difference between taking away freedom and making a being whose sole purpose is to torture another creature you created.
    Satan is like a prosecutring attorney in Job's story. God was so confident, he pointed Job out to Satan, and said "find the flaw". But Job;s flaw was obvious to God, invisible to Satan. The "torture" actually improved Job's self awareness.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing... Which is strange that a God with full knowledge of the future and the past would screw things up so horribly.
    What's screwed up? Everybody has a second chance according to the bible. God is just working with a few now. But suppose he's not. Then you would still be free to believe what you wish in either case.

    [quoteThe only thing church and state are interested in is making profits.

    And they do... buckets and buckets... They've paid out million in settlements with the people they molested and I haven't seen one church close yet.[/quote]

    Precisely, which is why there's no need to follow any of them, church or state.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Who knows? Ransom? They get off on it?
    Sounds like a firm parallel to God torturing Job now doesn't it!

    Ransom for your soul? God getting his jollies watching Jobs family die by his right hand man he custom made for the task?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post

    Since God already knew the outcome, it was no test. However, only by actual experience would Job see that he was flawed in his own self worth.
    Oh there are plenty of ways to teach that lesson that don't involve torturing of people who you "love"

    Telling a fiction story for one... and then there was the bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    We could assume that Job would have been created in such a perfect manner that he could simply sef-reference and make necesary corrections, but that was apparently the problem with Satan, biblically. He couldn't do it.
    You mean God made a being(satan) with flaws? *Gasp* But I thought God was perfect!
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Your proposition includes an "if", which means that i was taken completely by surprise, I didn't notify someone else, etc. That's not omniscience. It must include an "if", whereas if od is all knowing, there is no if. It will be done exactly like that. Prisoners have escaped from Alcatraz, from POW camps, and from kidnappings. There's always the "if" in suich cases, where there is none regarding an omniscient God.
    So does your proposition. Look closer and you'll see a lot of other "if's required for yours. If God exists. If God has the power of creation. If God is aware of our existence. If the storey was not a work of fiction. Lots of if's and I've never seen an example of God in real life. I've seen plenty of abductions on TV where the people are tortured and never make it out alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Exactly. Job developed greater insights because Stan did God's will. Job;s situation improved because Satan did God's will.
    Well then why are we doing all this book learnin? We should just torture everyone instead! God did it and he's perfect so we should do like Him?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Again, God could have made things so everybody knew what s/he needed to know, and avoid bad choices, act in perfect accordance with necessary trules and laws, like a robot. Instead, people adapt, they are not quite perfectly adapted, so they have to continually registetr feedback and change. That's what learning and self awareness is about.
    Whoa... That sounds a lot like the forces at work with Evolution... Hardly like something a perfect being would have created in one shot... Robots sound far more like what a perfect being would create...

    Would utopia really be so bad? What is it about causing pain to others that you find so pleasurable?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Apparently not, since he told Satan to go for it. What Job learned by experience, he incorporated by choice once he was aware. The issue here is one in which an individual may experience and learn, and then use that for future reference, or whether s/he is simply created in such a way that proper behavior is automatic.
    So... here we are with God is perfect and God did it so it must be perfect because God is perfect and he did it so it must be perfect because God did ........

    So that begs the question... Who judges God's perfection?
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Satan is like a prosecutring attorney in Job's story. God was so confident, he pointed Job out to Satan, and said "find the flaw". But Job;s flaw was obvious to God, invisible to Satan. The "torture" actually improved Job's self awareness.
    Sure... and in God's infinite wisdom, this is the best method of teaching he could come up with? So why bother with the needlessly complicated measure of making a weapon to do his dirty work for him? Why not just do it himself? Why did God need to create a persona called the devil to do all his will that humans would look unfavorably upon?

    If Job has shown us anything, God has every desire to torture us to see if we would break. If this is the test of our faith to get into heaven I'm afraid heaven will be a lonely place...

    Come on... God has to have better motivation for multiple murders and torture than teaching one man a lesson.
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    What's screwed up? Everybody has a second chance according to the bible. God is just working with a few now. But suppose he's not. Then you would still be free to believe what you wish in either case.
    What's NOT screwed up??? More like it. For starters... why do we need ANYTHING for survival? Why are there predators? Why must every creature kill something to survive? What item anywhere isn't screwed up? Why is there a limit to the land on Earth? Why IS there suffering? All the important questions in life... the bible just doesn't answer.

    I'm so grateful to have a second chance to believe in a mythical creature... Could I pass it up? hmmmm...
    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    The only thing church and state are interested in is making profits.

    And they do... buckets and buckets... They've paid out million in settlements with the people they molested and I haven't seen one church close yet.
    Precisely, which is why there's no need to follow any of them, church or state.
    So you retract your statement about church and state trying to do better than God?
    Last edited by Lord_jag; 10-15-2010 at 04:31 PM.
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post

    What's NOT screwed up??? More like it. For starters... why do we need ANYTHING for survival? Why are there predators? Why must every creature kill something to survive? What item anywhere isn't screwed up? Why is there a limit to the land on Earth? Why IS there suffering? All the important questions in life... the bible just doesn't answer.
    These are crucial questions for humankind. I think the story of Job is interesting in it's telling of God's power over man and Satan. I think it conveys a particularly sad meaning. Job had to endure horrible suffering to prove his loyalty to God. This addresses the meaning of life in our universe according to the bigger picture of what happened to Satan.

    All of those questions can be answered only by referring to the reality of what happened. The whys about life that you ask are directly related to the why of the universe.

    If, assuming the universe was created as a prison for Satan, we are collateral damage. That is a cold cruel fact of life. Humans are destined to suffer the same fate as infra-human species. In that world, there are predators, there is dying and suffering, and there are limited resources for survival. The only real difference is that we have developed language to enable us to understand our dilemma. God attempted reconciliation, but that failed. Now, we are awaiting our fate.

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    LogicallyYours is offline Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Are you saying other animals don't have languages? How about Whales, Dophins...there are plenty examples of animals who communicate phonetically.

    You assume, without proof, that humans have been given a special uniqueness over all other animals...and not just another animal.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    Sounds like a firm parallel to God torturing Job now doesn't it!
    Of course. I thought we agreed, Goddidit.

    Ransom for your soul? God getting his jollies watching Jobs family die by his right hand man he custom made for the task?
    Yep, buit since you;re arguing the premises of an all knowing, omnipotent God, then all those lost will live again, which is biblical.

    Oh there are plenty of ways to teach that lesson that don't involve torturing of people who you "love"
    God knew Job's mind, and he knew Satan's mind. He knew Satan would lose his bet. The lesson was one of self reference, a process by which Job had to see by his own experience that he was not as perfect as he thought.

    Telling a fiction story for one... and then there was the bible.
    I never said Job was true. I merely went with the points made.

    You mean God made a being(satan) with flaws? *Gasp* But I thought God was perfect!
    Apparently he didn;t have any flaws. he was "perfect in all thy ways", so perfect that he couldn;t examine his own sense of self perfection, like a computer, doing exactly what it does to perfection.

    So does your proposition. Look closer and you'll see a lot of other "if's required for yours. If God exists. If God has the power of creation. If God is aware of our existence. If the storey was not a work of fiction. Lots of if's and I've never seen an example of God in real life. I've seen plenty of abductions on TV where the people are tortured and never make it out alive.
    Of ocurse, and then there's some where they are. The point is, no one is omniscient in the process, nor can they predict with absolute certainty.

    I'm arguing the simplest argument. If there is a God, then that God is either consistent with what we can demonstrate, or he doesn't exist.
    Well then why are we doing all this book learnin? We should just torture everyone instead! God did it and he's perfect so we should do like Him?
    Several religions actually practiced that. Look at the Spanish Inquisition, some Muslim fanatics today.

    Whoa... That sounds a lot like the forces at work with Evolution... Hardly like something a perfect being would have created in one shot... Robots sound far more like what a perfect being would create...
    Of course. I've never argued against evolution. I can show parallels between evolutionary developent and cultura;l development, including the patterns of "prophets" used by Israel.

    Would utopia really be so bad? What is it about causing pain to others that you find so pleasurable?
    Nothing to overcome, everything perfect. No tears, no work, no effort, and no freedom. "Rollin' 'Round Heaven All Day" for eternity would suck.

    So... here we are with God is perfect and God did it so it must be perfect because God is perfect and he did it so it must be perfect because God did ........
    I don't give a shit whether god did it or not. I'm just pointing out that Paul's teaching, and in this case, the book of Job, shows that the main problem with human brains is the same as presented by Godel: there is no self referencing process by which we can attain all truth, yet we continue to organize as if there is. That was Job's flaw, and the flaw of christianity and all religions.

    So that begs the question... Who judges God's perfection?
    My arguments are not christian arguments. they are biblical arguments, and there's a difference. The purpose for which we exist is to learn, to develop, to process knowledge on our own. The evil that occurs generally happens when men organize, when they decide that by deciding in a group that the group is perfect, they can eliminate individual lives, like religions.

    Sure... and in God's infinite wisdom, this is the best method of teaching he could come up with? So why bother with the needlessly complicated measure of making a weapon to do his dirty work for him? Why not just do it himself? Why did God need to create a persona called the devil to do all his will that humans would look unfavorably upon?
    It would be nice if they did look unfavorably, but they don't. Humans employ the techniques of evil to try to do good. Satan can appear as an angel of truth, and that is the problem, whether you look at it in terms of the usual religious notions or of mathematics. It is impossible to list all true mathematical statements, and even if you could, there would be false statements mixed in.

    Satan, is merely a representation of our inability to break free of deception.

    If Job has shown us anything, God has every desire to torture us to see if we would break. If this is the test of our faith to get into heaven I'm afraid heaven will be a lonely place...
    Actually, Job did break. Not only did he break, but he admitted that he wasn;t as perfect as he thought. When he saw that, his wealth and success was restored. The problem with humans is that we all have a tendency to seldect our particular views of what ought to be good, and judge everything contrrary to that as bad, as if any of us are absolute judges of truth. We know mathematically that is impossible.

    Come on... God has to have better motivation for multiple murders and torture than teaching one man a lesson.
    That's a flaw in the story from any human perspective. Why destroy inocent lives to get at one person?
    The whole story seems like a battle of egos between God and Satan, doesn't it?

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