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  1. #1
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    Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Exodus 22:22-24 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry; And my wrath shall wax hot...

    Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

    Psalm 68:5 A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling.

    Isaiah 49:15 Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you.

    Oh, that's nice

    Psalm 103:8 The LORD is slow to anger

    Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die...?

    Ezekiel 18:4 the soul that sins will die
    1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law

    Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Hm... the bible has an interesting message.. don't look at me, I'm just a messenger... >_>

    John 16:8,13
    And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin...
    when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth

    Oh, so it's the spirit that convicts the conscience of sin..
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 10-04-2010 at 09:20 AM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    I believe the Lord God is slow to anger because he doesn't have a fiery temper or hostile nature. Because God's pure love, He's patient and willing to wait it out. However, He's omnipotent in what He knows, so his patience is limited.

    I believe, as an example, He gave Satan plenty of opportunity to stop attacking His angels. Maybe giving him more slack than necessary. Finally, He lost patience. That's when God imprisoned him in the universe.

    Look at the state of the world and all the atrocities humans have committed and continue to commit. Evidently, God is patient enough to wait it out. Otherwise, the end of the world would have happened by now.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    They explain why he chose to wipe out all those helpless men, women, children and animals in Haiti?

    Was he just asleep at the switch?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    They explain why he chose to wipe out all those helpless men, women, children and animals in Haiti?

    Was he just asleep at the switch?
    Take it up with God.

    In my opinion, we're suffering the consequences of being mortal beings. That happened after paradise fell.

    If you want to judge God, that's you prerogative. The problem is that you have no authority to execute your sentence.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Take it up with God.

    In my opinion, we're suffering the consequences of being mortal beings. That happened after paradise fell.

    If you want to judge God, that's you prerogative. The problem is that you have no authority to execute your sentence.
    Sure I do...god doesn't exist and never did. It's all just a man-made myth/excuse to explain the unknown before there was science.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Take it up with God.

    In my opinion, we're suffering the consequences of being mortal beings. That happened after paradise fell.

    If you want to judge God, that's you prerogative. The problem is that you have no authority to execute your sentence.
    God apparently allows the devil to do what ever he wants... Christians say it's all part of the conflict between good and evil, and yet God seems so passive. Perhaps there's something we don't see.

    The book of Job gives us insight on what we don't see in the conflict between good and evil. Basically, Satan accuses Job of being good only out of convenience and God allows Satan to afflict him in order to prove Satan wrong. In other words, God was trusting that Job would trust in Him.
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 10-06-2010 at 03:12 AM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    They explain why he chose to wipe out all those helpless men, women, children and animals in Haiti?

    Was he just asleep at the switch?
    Hmm, i think I replied to Cnance by mistake

    God apparently allows the devil to do what ever he wants... Christians say it's all part of the conflict between good and evil, and yet God seems so passive. Perhaps there's something we don't see.

    The book of Job gives us insight on what we don't see in the conflict between good and evil. Basically, Satan accuses Job of being good only out of convenience and God allows Satan to afflict him in order to prove Satan wrong. In other words, God was trusting that Job would trust in Him.

    God doesn't actually "chose" to wipe out the just and innocent, but allows the devil to do what ever the devil choses to do.
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 10-11-2010 at 02:19 AM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by truthinquirer View Post
    God doesn't actually "chose" to wipe out the just and innocent, but allows the devil to do what ever the devil choses to do.
    Okay, but even the least moral person can see that is wrong.

    If you have it in your ability to stop a serious crime from happening and walk away doing nothing, your an accessory to the crime.

    Even us pitiful mortals see that as immoral. Why doesn't your God?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    Okay, but even the least moral person can see that is wrong.

    If you have it in your ability to stop a serious crime from happening and walk away doing nothing, your an accessory to the crime.

    Even us pitiful mortals see that as immoral. Why doesn't your God?

    In that type of discussion, you would have to include Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. The principle of cause and effect, seems to accept the idea that God is actually responsible for evil, because God supposedly created everything.

    Obviously such principles of cause and effect allow us to learn anbd explore the relatonships of our universe, so we have to conclude that if God is the source of all such cause and effect, then God must be equally responsible for evil as well.

    To argue other wise is to argue that evil occurs outside of God's control, which takes us back to an old and familiar argument.

    If Satan is fully responsible for evil, and if God created Satan, then either God is incapable of controlling Satan, or God intended for Satan to do what Satan does, which takes us back to Isaiah 45:7.

    If the usual christian garbage is true, the we have a God who created us in suich a way that we could be no different than what we are, then created a tempter to "load the dice", and will punish us if we do not accept his sovereignty.

    In that case, you have an obviously narcissistic God who created humans who would unquestionablly obey him, and those who did not would suffer eternal agony forever.

    Add to that the nature of truth itself. If we tried to worship God in truth, the inescapable result is over 38,000 versions of "truth".

    If so, then we also have a narcissistic God who wants us to obey him, but never allows us to ever know what truth is. The command is simply to "obey me. I will decide by my own will who lives and who burns".

    That means you have a capricious God of fiat who offers nothing of security regarding understanding of truth, and that is why you have over 38,000 versions of christianity, all preying on your fear of hell to keep you in control.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    ...and that's why Pascals Wager fails... because it's not just God vs no God... Its no God vs God 1 vs God 2 vs God 3 vs .... vs God 37999 vs Gods 1 vs Gods 2 vs Gods 3....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    In that type of discussion, you would have to include Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. The principle of cause and effect, seems to accept the idea that God is actually responsible for evil, because God supposedly created everything.

    Obviously such principles of cause and effect allow us to learn anbd explore the relatonships of our universe, so we have to conclude that if God is the source of all such cause and effect, then God must be equally responsible for evil as well.

    To argue other wise is to argue that evil occurs outside of God's control, which takes us back to an old and familiar argument.

    If Satan is fully responsible for evil, and if God created Satan, then either God is incapable of controlling Satan, or God intended for Satan to do what Satan does, which takes us back to Isaiah 45:7.

    If the usual christian garbage is true, the we have a God who created us in suich a way that we could be no different than what we are, then created a tempter to "load the dice", and will punish us if we do not accept his sovereignty.

    In that case, you have an obviously narcissistic God who created humans who would unquestionablly obey him, and those who did not would suffer eternal agony forever.

    Add to that the nature of truth itself. If we tried to worship God in truth, the inescapable result is over 38,000 versions of "truth".

    If so, then we also have a narcissistic God who wants us to obey him, but never allows us to ever know what truth is. The command is simply to "obey me. I will decide by my own will who lives and who burns".

    That means you have a capricious God of fiat who offers nothing of security regarding understanding of truth, and that is why you have over 38,000 versions of christianity, all preying on your fear of hell to keep you in control.


    Both verses (Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6) are correct to state God is the creator of everything. However, I disagree that God is responsible for evil. God apart from His evil creatures is not evil. You can indict God for what his creatures have done, but the problem is his creatures lack authority to execute judgments. God therefore is the final arbitrator.

    The key for understanding difference is freewill. After Satan turned against God and His angels, the die was cast. I do believe however that Satan had amble opportunity to be redeemed, but he continued to be rebellious. God had no choice but to imprison Satan in the universe. God could not control Satan because He had given Satan freewill. Freewill means one has authority over his or her decisions.

    I don't agree that God is a narcissistic being. God is simple God. You can infer God is narcissistic if you take into account his Holiness. If holiness is the essence of God, then you can say He is self-absorbed in what he is. If holiness only resides in God, then we truly have a black and white issue. Since his creatures cannot make themselves holy, create anything or make themselves eternal, they are helpless without God.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-11-2010 at 11:28 AM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Both verses (Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6) are correct to state God is the creator of everything. However, I disagree that God is responsible for evil.
    Then you disagree with a plain statement. God makes peace and creates evil. If he created it, then he is responsible for it. If he created Satan and gave Satan free will, then Satan can operate outside God's control, and therefore God is not omniscient or omnipotent.


    God apart from His evil creatures is not evil. You can indict God for what his creatures have done, but the problem is his creatures lack authority to execute judgments. God therefore is the final arbitrator.
    That is why we have the New testament. The arbitrator has paid the penalty and set us free from that penalty. Romans 5:18:
    "Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life".

    "Free gift'. That means a gift without strings attached.

    What is the penalty for sin? Death(Romans 6:23). If we die, therefore, we have paid the full penalty for sin. No more penalty exists, and all people, good or bad, will die.

    There is no choice we can make that negates death. A free gift pertaining to "justification of life" would therefore have to deal with a different life after this life, since whatever choice you make, you will still die.

    Any judgement that occurs can only occur for a life that exists AFTER this life, since there is no penalty assessed in that life.

    The key for understanding difference is freewill. After Satan turned against God and His angels, the die was cast. I do believe however that Satan had amble opportunity to be redeemed.

    If Satan had freewill, then God could not know in advance that Satan would rebel, which means that God is not omniscient. If God did know, then Satan merely did God's will. You are left then with a situation in which Satan is winning big, and there is no truth we can prove that will tilt the argument in God's favor, and we are supposed to believe that for which there is no proof.

    Even if we do choose God in the form of religion, we have atrocities committed by religion in the name of God, which means that Satan is winning every single battle.
    God had no choice but to imprison Satan in the universe.
    Then God is less than his creation.
    God could not control Satan because He had given Satan freewill. Freewill means one has authority over his or her decisions.
    Then if an atheist has authority and responsibility for choosing not to believe in a God for whom he has no proof, why would God hold the atheist responsible for making a logical decision? You desctribe a God not worth believing in.

    I don't agree that God is a narcissistic being. God is simple God. You can infer God is narcissistic if you take into account his Holiness.
    If God is intent on making us believe in something for which there is no proof, and if giod punishes a person for not bwelieivng something because there is no evidence, then you have a narcissistc God. He is narcissistic because because he sees himself as holy and divine for no logical reason, except that he created us, and he demands our obedience whether we can prove him or not. Sounds more like a corporation than God.
    If holiness is the essence of God, then you can say He is self-absorbed in what he is. If holiness only resides in God, then we truly have a black and white issue. Since his creatures cannot make themselves holy, create anything or make themselves eternal, they are helpless without God.
    That's the problem. They have no guidelines to make themselves much of anything. There are no "works" they can do to achieve salvation(Ephesians 2:8-10). They are left thereforwe only with belief, a belief that leads to no consistent, complete truth, but they are to simply accept Jesus and hope for the best.

    You describe a madman, not worth the worship.
    Last edited by doojie; 10-11-2010 at 11:14 AM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Then you disagree with a plain statement. God makes peace and creates evil. If he created it, then he is responsible for it. If he created Satan and gave Satan free will, then Satan can operate outside God's control, and therefore God is not omniscient or omnipotent.




    That is why we have the New testament. The arbitrator has paid the penalty and set us free from that penalty. Romans 5:18:
    "Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life".

    "Free gift'. That means a gift without strings attached.

    What is the penalty for sin? Death(Romans 6:23). If we die, therefore, we have paid the full penalty for sin. No more penalty exists, and all people, good or bad, will die.

    There is no choice we can make that negates death. A free gift pertaining to "justification of life" would therefore have to deal with a different life after this life, since whatever choice you make, you will still die.

    Any judgement that occurs can only occur for a life that exists AFTER this life, since there is no penalty assessed in that life.




    If Satan had freewill, then God could not know in advance that Satan would rebel, which means that God is not omniscient. If God did know, then Satan merely did God's will. You are left then with a situation in which Satan is winning big, and there is no truth we can prove that will tilt the argument in God's favor, and we are supposed to believe that for which there is no proof.

    Even if we do choose God in the form of religion, we have atrocities committed by religion in the name of God, which means that Satan is winning every single battle.


    Then God is less than his creation.


    Then if an atheist has authority and responsibility for choosing not to believe in a God for whom he has no proof, why would God hold the atheist responsible for making a logical decision? You desctribe a God not worth believing in.



    If God is intent on making us believe in something for which there is no proof, and if giod punishes a person for not bwelieivng something because there is no evidence, then you have a narcissistc God. He is narcissistic because because he sees himself as holy and divine for no logical reason, except that he created us, and he demands our obedience whether we can prove him or not. Sounds more like a corporation than God.


    That's the problem. They have no guidelines to make themselves much of anything. There are no "works" they can do to achieve salvation(Ephesians 2:8-10). They are left thereforwe only with belief, a belief that leads to no consistent, complete truth, but they are to simply accept Jesus and hope for the best.

    You describe a madman, not worth the worship.
    It may appear that way.

    I am only reflecting on what I know about God. I'll stick with my original script. God created the universe as a prison for Satan not for humans pleasure. Homo sapiens (humans) are the product of evolution after the fall of paradise. God's original intent was for Him and His angels to enjoy paradise on earth. At that time homo sapiens had not developed into their present form. Satan took over the whole works, land, sea and God's creatures. That's partly why God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. Then, Satan found homo sapiens to be powerful co-conspirators (a powerful force opposing God). God decided to intervene in human history, thus, human's story about God, the Bible.

    In this context humans are insignificant creatures. Our ego makes us important.

    You might say that God demands obedience, but that's just your interpretation. The key is acceptance or rejection by his creatures. Because God has given us freewill, He doesn't demand that we worship Him. We, like Satan, can choose to worship or not worship. The consequence of rejecting God is therefore to rely on our own resources.

    Because I believe the true story about Jesus is Rev. 11, most of what Paul and the gospel authors wrote is untrue. You can derive truth from the gospels, but it's difficult. By factoring out references to the son or God or by rereading with reference to God being two entities, some of the stories make sense. Humankind sealed its fate when Jesus was brutally murdered. I believe Revelations was given to John by God and His angels.

    I don't believe God is less than His creation. God is simple God. God can't be compared to his creation. To the human mind, God is unfathomable. Our judgments derive from human culture. I do believe however that God's Ten Commandments was intended to inject His morality into human societies. Mostly the basic message of the Old Testament is that God's authority is superior to dead idols or to human institutions. God lost that debate. The prophets wrote graphic verses about Israel's failure to obey God's will. Israel is the surrogate for humankind. The same argument continues. Why should I, a child of God, submit to my creator?

    Just because God's creatures rebel against him doesn't mean he's not omnipotent. God would be violating His pledge of freewill, if He interfered with choices. Would it be freewill, if God made decisions for His creatures?

    Despite the negative consequences of what I know, I am awed by God's beauty and Holiness. There is no other being like God. It is worth it to know God and die, rather than to have not known Him and die. That's what I believe. I refuse to judge God, that's totally futile and a waste of t i m e.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-11-2010 at 01:25 PM.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    It may appear that way.

    I am only reflecting on what I know about God.

    But what you "know' or what I know is subject to question.
    Satan took over the whole works, land, sea and God's creatures. That's partly why God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. Then, Satan found homo sapiens to be powerful co-conspirators (a powerful force opposing God). God decided to intervene in human history, thus, human's story about God, the Bible.
    If God did not know Satan's intentions, then God had no control over the outcome of Satan's decision. He is not omniscient.

    .

    You might say that God demands obedience, but that's just your interpretation.
    I never said that. It's a christian assumption. In fact, by all evidence, obedience to God would imply that we could actually know and decide on what constitutes obedience, but obviously the evidence points in a different direction(38,000 forms of christianity). Christians say we must accept Christ, we must then choose a church and give ourselves to that church.

    The key is acceptance or rejection by his creatures. Because God has given us freewill, He doesn't demand that we worship Him.
    Acceptance of what? Certainly not truth, since we cannot arrive at truth in any single pacakge. If we are merely to "accept Christ" or accept God, then we are, at best, accepting what we believe is correct.

    We, like Satan, can choose to worship or not worship. The consequence of rejecting God is therefore to rely on our own resources.
    One has every justifiable reason for not accepting what cannot be proven. To choose otherwise is to place faith above reason and logic. I would never do that.

    Because I believe the true story about Jesus is Rev. 11, most of what Paul and the gospel authors wrote is untrue. You can derive truth from the gospels, but it's difficult.
    But Paul said there is no choice you can ake which will place you any closer to God, no "works" that will get you saved. Jesus said to follow no man saying "here is Christ". From this, it appears Paul and Jesus are more on the atheists' side than the christians.
    Humankind sealed its fate when Jesus was brutally murdered. I believe Revelations was given to John by God and His angels.
    Rev. 11 is the story of the two witnesses. If the various nations of the earth makwe merry over their dead bodies, we obviously can't conclude that these masses are profressing christians, or we might conclude that the two witnesses are teaching something of which professing christians do not approve.
    Of course, to avoid that, the rapture has been invented.

    I don't believe God is less than His creation. God is simple God. God can't be compared to his creation.
    If God can't control his ctreation, he is less than his creation, which can reside outside his power. The only thing he could offer is eternal life if we worship him for no good reason, according t your conclusions. "God is simple God". That tells us nothing at all, except if we do what this God says, we get to live forever, no rhyme or reason, no purpose, nothing except a reward of etertnal life if we just obey him. Ridiculous. That sounds more like Satan to me.

    To the human mind, God is unfathomable. Our judgments derive from human culture. I do believe however that God's Ten Commandments was intended to inject His morality into human societies.

    Actually, since it is impossible to be subject to the Ten commandments, the only result would be the splintering of religions we see today. God realized that israel did not have the will to keep his commandments, if deuteronomy 5:29 is true. In fact, the intent was not to inject morality, but to create a force of "information" differences among individuals that forced them to question their actions as individuals. That was Jesus' stated purpose in Matthew 10:34-38.
    Mostly the basic message of the Old Testament is that God's authority is superior to dead idols or to human institutions. God lost that debate. The prophets wrote graphic verses about Israel's failure to obey God's will. Israel is the surrogate for humankind. The same argument continues. Why should I, a child of God, submit to my creator?
    The fact is, you cannot, any more than Israel did. If you seek to submit, the first thing the human mind does naturally is to seek rules and behaviors that justify them before God. But when they do that, they create mechanical laws and rules that are subject to the limits of Godel's theorem. The more they try to define the rules, the more they arrive at undecidable propositions, and the more people will decide that their own interpretation is superior to another interpretation. THAT is what was intended by the Ten Commandments.

    Just because God's creatures rebel against him doesn't mean he's not omnipotent. God would be violating His pledge of freewill, if He interfered with choices. Would it be freewill, if God made decisions for His creatures?
    If Giod is omniscient, salvation cannot be dependent on freewill choice, since God already knows what decision you will make. Since God created the universe and its laws, then God is responsible for your decisions, since he created the conditions that would result in you. Pledge or no pledge, it is a wasste of God's time to ask you to do what he already knows you will do. It would be a total waste of time, which makes God a madman who derives pleasure from making us believe we will do something which he already knows we will do.

    Despite the negative consequences of what I know, I am awed by God's beauty and Holiness. There is no other being like God. It is worth it to know God and die, rather than to have not known Him and die. That's what I believe. I refuse to judge God, that's totally futile and a waste of t i m e.
    Except you're not judging God. You're only deciding what you believe about God must be true, and then refusing to judge that. A nice rationalization.

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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    But what you "know' or what I know is subject to question.

    If God did not know Satan's intentions, then God had no control over the outcome of Satan's decision. He is not omniscient.
    There is another way of interpreting it. God knew of Satan's intentions, but he adhered to a policy of nonintervention. For freewill to work, there can be no intervention.


    I never said that. It's a christian assumption. In fact, by all evidence, obedience to God would imply that we could actually know and decide on what constitutes obedience, but obviously the evidence points in a different direction(38,000 forms of christianity). Christians say we must accept Christ, we must then choose a church and give ourselves to that church.
    Acknowledged! It's Christian dogma.
    Obedience to God is a willful act based on love and devotion to Him. It can not be dictated by church leaders or dogma. It's a personal commitment between God and oneself.



    Acceptance of what? Certainly not truth, since we cannot arrive at truth in any single package. If we are merely to "accept Christ" or accept God, then we are, at best, accepting what we believe is correct.
    I mean acceptance of God for what he truly is. That cannot be negotiated by church or person, it's a personal experience.


    One has every justifiable reason for not accepting what cannot be proven. To choose otherwise is to place faith above reason and logic. I would never do that.
    There is no way for justifying faith in God. Since reason is limited to what we know, I place faith on what I cannot prove, but yet I know.


    But Paul said there is no choice you can ask which will place you any closer to God, no "works" that will get you saved. Jesus said to follow no man saying "here is Christ". From this, it appears Paul and Jesus are more on the atheists' side than the christians.
    I agree with that. What I question are the many accounts of Jesus as the son of God. That's because I have a bias. I don't believe Jesus was God's son. Jesus was God.


    Rev. 11 is the story of the two witnesses. If the various nations of the earth make merry over their dead bodies, we obviously can't conclude that these masses are professing Christians, or we might conclude that the two witnesses are teaching something of which professing Christians do not approve.
    Of course, to avoid that, the rapture has been invented.
    I found that to be the most profound part of Rev. 11. It rings true! That they would be angry because of what the "two witnesses" had done to them. "The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth." (Rev. 11:10). When they fully realized who Jesus was they became angry. Now, all their resentment, what they had suffered, what they had been denied, all of their misfortunes came to the surface. This was their opportunity. They could punish Him.

    If God can't control his ctreation, he is less than his creation, which can reside outside his power. The only thing he could offer is eternal life if we worship him for no good reason, according t your conclusions. "God is simple God". That tells us nothing at all, except if we do what this God says, we get to live forever, no rhyme or reason, no purpose, nothing except a reward of etertnal life if we just obey him. Ridiculous. That sounds more like Satan to me.
    How can you define something that is undefinable? God is beyond human language. Knowing that, what can we say about God? We have the prophets encounters and we have accounts in the NT that are inaccurate because they were filtered through religious ideology. I remember a dream in which four sticks represented the gospels. A voice said, "I don't feel myself here." Shortly thereafter, I had other dreams, all of which revealed that God was two entities, each equal in power, glory and Holiness. Then, after reading Bart Ehrman's books, it all made sense.

    The gospels are false. I don't believe there's a guarantee for getting into heaven.

    Actually, since it is impossible to be subject to the Ten commandments, the only result would be the splintering of religions we see today. God realized that Israel did not have the will to keep his commandments, if Deuteronomy 5:29 is true. In fact, the intent was not to inject morality, but to create a force of "information" differences among individuals that forced them to question their actions as individuals. That was Jesus' stated purpose in Matthew 10:34-38.
    Maybe that was the intent. I don't know. Questioning may lead to truth.


    The fact is, you cannot, any more than Israel did. If you seek to submit, the first thing the human mind does naturally is to seek rules and behaviors that justify them before God. But when they do that, they create mechanical laws and rules that are subject to the limits of Godel's theorem. The more they try to define the rules, the more they arrive at undecidable propositions, and the more people will decide that their own interpretation is superior to another interpretation. THAT is what was intended by the Ten Commandments.
    I agree there are no certainties.


    If God is omniscient, salvation cannot be dependent on freewill choice, since God already knows what decision you will make. Since God created the universe and its laws, then God is responsible for your decisions, since he created the conditions that would result in you. Pledge or no pledge, it is a waste of God's time to ask you to do what he already knows you will do. It would be a total waste of time, which makes God a madman who derives pleasure from making us believe we will do something which he already knows we will do.
    I disagree. Knowing that God has a policy of nonintervention in human affairs explains a lot. Again, as I've stated, I believe we're collateral damage from Satan's imprisonment. That's not a comforting thought, but if it's true, it explains a lot about our condition in the universe.

    Except you're not judging God. You're only deciding what you believe about God must be true, and then refusing to judge that. A nice rationalization.
    Possible, but based on the bigger picture of who God is, I'm a realist. Besides, I can't get motivated to dislike or judge God. It's difficult to explain, but I think I understand God's point of view.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-11-2010 at 07:49 PM.

  16. #16
    Lord_jag's Avatar
    Lord_jag is offline I am God because I say I am. Prove me wrong.
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    Re: Vengeful.. but slow to anger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    There is another way of interpreting it. God knew of Satan's intentions, but he adhered to a policy of nonintervention. For freewill to work, there can be no intervention.
    Ah... but then again you have the idea that God is all knowing and all powerful. Such a creature could not create something without knowing how the entire future would play out as he placed every atom of every compound throughout the universe. Any act of creation He does no matter how small, He will know how that affects every decision of every creature throughout all space and time.

    How could something possibly have free will when the designer has within their capabilities the ability to sculpt and mold every decision, every outcome and knows what the decision will be before you make it?
    A real, honest, falsifiable claim made b.y Seer of dreams:(2011)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
    Oh Cnance.... Full of shit as always.

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