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  1. #1
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    The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal soul

    A quote from William Tyndale
    "And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove theresurrection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?"
    — William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (1530)

    Verses on Death
    Genesis 2:7
    Dust + Breath = Soul (nephesh)
    Numbers 31:19
    People ARE souls (nephesh), they don't possess a soul
    Genesis 2:17-18, Ezekiel 18:4
    The soul that sins will surley die
    Genesis 3: 4-6, Revelation 12:10
    The devil says you will not surely die
    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Dust - Spirit (ruach) = Death
    Ecclesiastes 3:19
    Humans & beasts have one breath (ruach) and will die the same way
    Job 27:3-4
    The spirit (ruach) of life resides in our nostrils o.O
    1 Timothy 6:13-16
    Only God is immortal
    John 3:16, Romans 6:23
    Eternal life is a gift, it's not inherent in humans
    Joshua 11:11
    Souls can get killed
    Genesis 1:20-24
    Beasts ARE souls (nephesh) too
    Numbers 9:6
    A corpse is a dead soul
    James 5:20, Revelation 16:3
    Souls (puche) can die
    Matthew 10:28
    Souls can be destroyed
    Psalm 6:4-5, Psalm 115:17
    The dead are in their graves
    Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
    The dead don't know or remember anything (refutes necromancy)
    Job 7:9-10
    At death, one vanishes into the grave and cannot return home
    Job 14:21
    The dead can't hear you mourn for them
    Deuteronomy 18:10-11, Samuel 28:13-14
    Familiar spirits can pretend to be dead people being raised from the ground

    Arguments using the resurrection
    Luke 24: 39
    Jesus resurrected in flesh and bone
    Psalms 13:3, Job 14:10-12, John 11:13-15
    The dead are "sleeping", we can't wake them up, only Jesus can
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29
    The dead don't go anywhere until the resurrection
    Revelation 20:14, Revelation 20:6
    The reward of the lost is the second death, in which there's no resurrection
    John 14:2-3
    Jesus must return in order for the saved to go to heaven
    Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52
    The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at he second coming
    John 11:26, Luke 20:38
    Believers don't really die
    2 Corinthians 5:1-8
    When resurrected, we receive a new imperishable body which is in heaven
    (thus explaining why to to be absent from this current body is to be present with the lord)
    Luke 23:43, John 20:17
    Punctuation error, Jesus couldn't have been with the thief on paradise that day because first he didn't ascend to the father yet and we don't know if the thief even died that day.

    Verses on Hell
    Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:9-10
    "Hellfire" comes from heaven, it's especially prepared for the devil and his angels to be burned
    Matthew 10:28, 2 Kings 16:3, 23:10; 2Chronicles 28:3, Jeremiah 7:31
    Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom had fires that were kept burning (thus unquenchable), Jesus used it as a metaphor of the lake of fire
    Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:9, Revelation 20:11-13 , Revelation 20:5, 13-15
    Hell is a future event
    2 Peter 3:7, 10, Revelation 20:8-9
    Hellfire will be on Earth (not under it)
    Jude 1:7
    If Sodom was burned with eternal fire, why isn't it still burning?
    Malachi 4:1
    The wicked will be annihilated!! o.O

    The Rich Man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31
    When reading this parable, we should consider the following:
    -A man cannot literally enter into “the bosom” or chest of Abraham.
    -It is impossible for anyone who is literally burning in fire to carry on a normal conversation.
    -Can those in heaven and hell talk to each other?
    -The rich man was represented as being “bodily” in hell, with eyes, a mouth, a tongue, etc. This is obviously symbolic. If the rich man’s grave was dug up, wouldn’t his body be there? Of course.
    -A real man burning in fire would not ask for a little H2O to cool his tongue.
    -Jesus Christ did not interpret every parable He told. Yet He did interpret the parable of the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13. In His interpretation of this parable, Jesus said plainly that hell-fire occurs at the end, rather than at death. Read Matthew 13:40.
    -2 Peter 2:9 says that the lost will not be punished until “the day of judgment” which occurs at the end of the 1000 years (see Revelation 20:11-15).
    -The purpose of this parable was to teach the greedy Pharisees that contrary to their present opinions, the rich are not necessarily blessed and the poor cursed (16:14, 22-23), that a man’s destiny is fixed at death (16:26), that speaking against Him with their “tongues” would result in their going into hell-fire (16:4), and that if they would not believe Moses and the prophets, a resurrection would not convince them (16:29, 31).
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 09-27-2010 at 11:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    I believe humans desperate seek to define themselves with life after death. To begin, the Bible states in Genesis that "from dust we come to dust we return." Then, men decided that's a bad idea. Why not redefine life in the context of eternity? That was reinforced by prophets' experiences with truly eternal beings.

    Then came the New Testament. Now, life after death is guaranteed. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and all is well. But what if Jesus is not the son of God? What then? There's enough confusion to cause insanity.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-28-2010 at 07:06 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe humans desperate seek to define themselves with life after death. To begin, the Bible states in Genesis that "from dust we come to dust we return." Then, men decided that's a bad idea. Why not redefine life in the context of eternity? That was reinforced by prophets' experiences with truly eternal beings.

    Then came the New Testament. Now, life after death is guaranteed. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and all is well. But what if Jesus is not the son of God? What then? There's enough confusion to cause insanity.
    The basic problem is that a conscious mind cannot envision itself as ceasing to exist. It's easy, then, to simply imagine a religion in which consciousness doesn't end, or where an immortal soul transcends the body.

    The idea of a "corporate" soul works to the advantage of organizations that claim control over the soul, like the catholic church and the variopus protestant religions. If your soul doesn't die, and if there is the possibility of a correct choice that will save your soul, then simply choose a religion.

    Of courase, that directly contradicts Jesus' statement to his disciples in Matthew 24:23, and Paul's statement in Romans 8:7.

    The choice for "salvation" is exactly the opposite of what the religions teach. You can't make correct choices by your own power, and there are no masses that make that choice (Matthew 7:14,21, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 9:16-22, John 6:44, John 14:17).

    The above scriptires are verified by Godel's theorem regarding truth. There is no way, in mathematics, nor in any formal system of sufficient complexity, by which truth can be placed in one package.

    If you believe any religion to be THE truth, you merely believe it because you believe it, and that's the best that can be said for it.
    Last edited by doojie; 10-02-2010 at 04:51 AM.

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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    The basic problem is that a conscious mind cannot envision itself as ceasing to exist. It's easy, then, to simply imagine a religion in which consciousness doesn't end, or where an immortal soul transcends the body.

    Exactly right!

    Try to imagine what it's like when you are asleep. It's hard, right? Why? Because you are asleep! But that is what I invision death is like.....nothingness! Now some folk, many years ago decided that wasn't good enough for them, or possibly could'nt imagine that for themselves and so invented "eternal salvation", just to make themselves feel better about life after death.


    Cheers, Pokey

  5. #5
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    The basic problem is that a conscious mind cannot envision itself as ceasing to exist. It's easy, then, to simply imagine a religion in which consciousness doesn't end, or where an immortal soul transcends the body.

    The idea of a "corporate" soul works to the advantage of organizations that claim control over the soul, like the catholic church and the variopus protestant religions. If your soul doesn't die, and if there is the possibility of a correct choice that will save your soul, then simply choose a religion.

    Of courase, that directly contradicts Jesus' statement to his disciples in Matthew 24:23, and Paul's statement in Romans 8:7.

    The choice for "salvation" is exactly the opposite of what the religions teach. You can't make correct choices by your own power, and there are no masses that make that choice (Matthew 7:14,21, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 9:16-22, John 6:44, John 14:17).

    The above scriptires are verified by Godel's theorem regarding truth. There is no way, in mathematics, nor in any formal system of sufficient complexity, by which truth can be placed in one package.

    If you believe any religion to be THE truth, you merely believe it because you believe it, and that's the best that can be said for it.
    Sounds reasonable. There are as many ways of getting to heaven as there are ways of thinking about it.

    A good preacher jumps on the salvation band wagon. "Do it my way and you'll enter the pearly gates."

    It is a comforting thought to know our body transcends this world as an immortal soul. Comforting if it were true. However, as you say, there are so many prescriptions for salvation as to make the word meaningless. If it were true, why wouldn't God have laid out a clear, or at least unambiguous path, for salvation?

    I would like to think that consciousness never ends. However, when I sleep, reality rears its ugly head. We are truly mortal beings.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-02-2010 at 07:14 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Sounds reasonable. There are as many ways of getting to heaven as there are ways of thinking about it.
    Of course, "getting to heaven", as truthinquirer would tell you, is a false assumpton regarding the bible.

    Here is the problem involving the human mind: since consciousness cannot conceive itself as ever ending(I can't imagine the total end of my own awareness), we tend to seek reasons for that existence. IOW, we take the axiom, consciousness, and begin to apply "self evident" strings of reasoning that extends from that conclusion.

    Why would we consider consciousness as axiomatic? because in order to question consciousness itself, a conscious mind is required in the first place.

    So, as a theorem derived from "I exist", my declaration of existence, demands a self evident truth of selfness, or consciousness, that exists as part of that self reflective awareness.

    "Existence exists" is an axiom, "I exist" is a self evident truth derived from that, and "consciousness exists" then derives self evidently from that fact. To say that consciousness exists outside of "me" or prior to "me" is questionable, but the fact that I exist and I am conscious is self evident to me, which leads to the assumption that other conscious beings exist besides myself.

    But here comes the complications:

    If existence and consciousness undeniably exist, what framework of rules allow for maximum advantage of that existence?

    Science and physics are good, but science and physics have no place for "me".

    Rules are good, but I'm not real happy about rules that reduce me to a statistic.

    As you conclude, therefotre, we begin devising as many "paths to heaven" as there are individual minds to imagine it, but:
    1.We can't be sure about the rules
    2.We can't be sure there is a heaven

    Which leads to the third problem:
    3.Anything goes.

    A good preacher jumps on the salvation band wagon. "Do it my way and you'll enter the pearly gates."
    Since anything goes, "Who are you to judge my beliefs?"

    But no ability to judge leads to :
    4.No abilit to define any path, any decision procedure, any systematic, definable process to get "there" from "here".

    In the absence of such k nowledge, and determined to "believe", we accept the will of the majority: "All those people can't be wrong".

    The problem is, "all those people" are using us to demonstrate the "truth" of their own argument, like living in a house of mirrors.

    It is a comforting thought to know our body transcends this world as an immortal soul. Comforting if it were true. However, as you say, there are so many prescriptions for salvation as to make the word meaningless. If it were true, why wouldn't God have laid out a clear, or at least unambiguous path, for salvation?
    He did. Matthew 24;23, "Then if ANY MAN(or woman, or boy, or girl) says to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there BELIEVE IT NOT".

    Faced with the problem which you yourself have defined, there is ONLY ONE LOGICAL choice to make:

    Don't follow any of them!

    I would like to think that consciousness never ends. However, when I sleep, reality rears its ugly head. We are truly mortal beings.
    Yes we are, and whatever rules we discover can only pertain to this "mortal coil" to borrow from Shakespeare.

    So, getting back to Godel, in any consistent axiomatic formulation of number theory(or any formal system of sufficient complexity), there exists an infinity of undecidable propositions.

    Jesus actually DID tell us the truth.

  7. #7
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Of course, "getting to heaven", as truthinquirer would tell you, is a false assumpton regarding the bible.

    Here is the problem involving the human mind: since consciousness cannot conceive itself as ever ending(I can't imagine the total end of my own awareness), we tend to seek reasons for that existence. IOW, we take the axiom, consciousness, and begin to apply "self evident" strings of reasoning that extends from that conclusion.

    Why would we consider consciousness as axiomatic? because in order to question consciousness itself, a conscious mind is required in the first place.
    "I think therefore I am." Descartes most noteworthy quote.

    I agree, as we become more educated about our fate we seek more elaborate ideas about being and existence. Religion becomes a safe haven from the dire consequences of death.

    So, as a theorem derived from "I exist", my declaration of existence, demands a self evident truth of selfness, or consciousness, that exists as part of that self reflective awareness.
    Thus, a reaffirmation of self in the context of a better image. We can therefore delete unfavorable attributes through a process of recreation. Thinking we are a part of God, or another son of God, is a form of self-deification.

    "Existence exists" is an axiom, "I exist" is a self evident truth derived from that, and "consciousness exists" then derives self evidently from that fact. To say that consciousness exists outside of "me" or prior to "me" is questionable, but the fact that I exist and I am conscious is self evident to me, which leads to the assumption that other conscious beings exist besides myself.
    Thus, through objective self-awareness, we can factor into our conscious minds either favorable or unfavorable evaluative frameworks. I agree, it is only imaginary. There's no evidence of prior consciousness.

    Humans have the ability to think objectively about themselves. Therefore, they can conjure up images of themselves beyond their own bodies, which may result in flights of fantasy into imaginary realms.

    But here comes the complications:

    If existence and consciousness undeniably exist, what framework of rules allow for maximum advantage of that existence?

    Science and physics are good, but science and physics have no place for "me".

    Rules are good, but I'm not real happy about rules that reduce me to a statistic.

    As you conclude, therefotre, we begin devising as many "paths to heaven" as there are individual minds to imagine it, but:
    1.We can't be sure about the rules
    2.We can't be sure there is a heaven

    Which leads to the third problem:
    3.Anything goes.



    Since anything goes, "Who are you to judge my beliefs?"

    But no ability to judge leads to :
    4.No abilit to define any path, any decision procedure, any systematic, definable process to get "there" from "here".

    In the absence of such k nowledge, and determined to "believe", we accept the will of the majority: "All those people can't be wrong".

    The problem is, "all those people" are using us to demonstrate the "truth" of their own argument, like living in a house of mirrors.



    He did. Matthew 24;23, "Then if ANY MAN(or woman, or boy, or girl) says to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there BELIEVE IT NOT".

    Faced with the problem which you yourself have defined, there is ONLY ONE LOGICAL choice to make:

    Don't follow any of them!



    Yes we are, and whatever rules we discover can only pertain to this "mortal coil" to borrow from Shakespeare.

    So, getting back to Godel, in any consistent axiomatic formulation of number theory(or any formal system of sufficient complexity), there exists an infinity of undecidable propositions.
    Rules are made by men and therefore subject to wordly consequences.

    Jesus actually DID tell us the truth.
    I believe Jesus was God, therefore much of what the gospels said it true. In my opinion, however, to understand the gospels, we have to factor out references to the son of God and rewrite the gospels. To discover the true Jesus, see Revelations 11.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-03-2010 at 05:53 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Then came the New Testament. Now, life after death is guaranteed. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and all is well. [..] There's enough confusion to cause insanity.
    It's only confusing if you're not a Jew. Daniel 12:2 speaks of a resurrection and many Jews believe in it, particularly the Pharisees. Jesus and his disciples were Jews, even Paul was a pharisee.

    The idea of we enter some ethereal plane of disembodied conscious existence (like heaven or hell) immediately at death is unbiblical and contradicts the teaching of the resurrection. The resurrection is such an important subject in the bible that even Paul wrote a whole chapter in Corinthians about it.

    When the bible speaks of eternal life, it means it literally in a new resurrected body!
    The bible begins with immortal humans in Eden which eventually lose immortality due to disregarding the life-giving Word (the fruit wasn't the real issue here), thus bringing death. The bible ends however with the immortality and Eden restored.

    The bible begins with the promise that that old serpent, the devil, would be defeated, and the bible ends speaking of the devil's defeat at the cross and eventual destruction.

    The bible is plain and simple, it's only confusing to people with their own preconceived ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and all is well. But what if Jesus is not the son of God? What then?
    In accepting God's work of salvation, we can all become spiritual sons of God.
    Outside of that, we are all already sons of the god of this world.

    In order to understand the acceptance of Yehoshua (God's salvation) as Moshiach (Anointed), you'd also have to be familiar with Judaism. (see explanation here)

    The name of Jesus means "God is salvation", so to accept Him is to accept His perfect life and what he did for you, let Him live through you (acknowledging that it's His doing and not yours), and to ultimately accept to live with Him for eternity. Jesus is an embodiment and fulfillment of God's salvation. It's God's salvation because it's His work and not ours. If anyone is lost, it would be because they didn't allow God to work in them. God sent salvation to the world through His Word made flesh, not in order for love us, but BECAUSE he loves us, in spite of our flaws. This teaching is very different from that of other religions that say you have to do something to appease the the "gods".
    Last edited by truthinquirer; 10-04-2010 at 05:52 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    I believe Jesus was God, therefore much of what the gospels said it true. In my opinion, however, to understand the gospels, we have to factor out references to the son of God and rewrite the gospels. To discover the true Jesus, see Revelations 11.
    So do I, but in factoring out certain apects, we still confront the limitations imposed by Godel. All such factoreing can only result in exactly the kind of splintering and speciation we see today.

    Paul had it right. You can't do it by your own effort.

  10. #10
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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by truthinquirer View Post

    The bible is plain and simple, it's only confusing to people with their own preconceived ideas.
    The problem is, people cannot escape the confusion of their own ideas.
    As Paul points out in Romans 9:16-22, there is no decision procedure by which we can separate ourselves from 'the world". Either there are those who are separate, or there are not, and there is no such defining process available to the human mind.

    If there were, we could eliminate all the religions and combine into one, but that would be direct contradiction of Godel's theorem, not to mention Romans 8:7.


    In accepting God's work of salvation, we can all become spiritual sons of God.
    The only thing you can actually choose of "free will" ias that which you conclude to be true. But again, that very assumption will find you in disagreement with thousands of other ideas of truth.
    Outside of that, we are all already sons of the god of this world.
    It would be impossible to decide that ourselves, as we see from Romans 8:29-30.

    In order to understand the acceptance of Yehoshua (God's salvation) as Moshiach (Anointed), you'd also have to be familiar with Judaism. (see explanation here)
    Not really, since a promise was made between YHVH and Abraham, and the promise is fulfilled by YHVH, regardless opf what we know or don't know.

    The name of Jesus means "God is salvation", so to accept Him is to accept His perfect life and what he did for you, let Him live through you (acknowledging that it's His doing and not yours), and to ultimately accept to live with Him for eternity. Jesus is an embodiment and fulfillment of God's salvation. It's God's salvation because it's His work and not ours. If anyone is lost, it would be because they didn't allow God to work in them. God sent salvation to the world through His Word made flesh, not in order for love us, but BECAUSE he loves us, in spite of our flaws. This teaching is very different from that of other religions that say you have to do something to appease the the "gods".
    No matter how explicitly you try to define it, any attempt to "serve God" by any human effort can only lead to division and confusion. There is no escape from it by human effort.

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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    So do I, but in factoring out certain apects, we still confront the limitations imposed by Godel. All such factoreing can only result in exactly the kind of splintering and speciation we see today.

    Paul had it right. You can't do it by your own effort.
    Correct, I suffer no illusions. Mine is just a new set of beliefs. Unfortunately, what I believe is not the gospel message. Christians are better off believing the salvation story instead a dreary tail of woe that "it didn't happen that way."

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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Correct, I suffer no illusions. Mine is just a new set of beliefs. Unfortunately, what I believe is not the gospel message. Christians are better off believing the salvation story instead a dreary tail of woe that "it didn't happen that way."
    Christianity, for the most part, comes from an amalgam of pagan ideas brought together under Constantine.

    I couldn;t tell anyone how it happened, nor can anyone else. What we CAN do is continue to look at the evidence and combine it with examination of our beliefs. Most likely, we'll all change if we're honest.

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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Christianity, for the most part, comes from an amalgam of pagan ideas brought together under Constantine.

    I couldn;t tell anyone how it happened, nor can anyone else. What we CAN do is continue to look at the evidence and combine it with examination of our beliefs. Most likely, we'll all change if we're honest.
    I agree and historical documents that exist are a paltry sample. The New Testament appears to be, as you said, an amalgamation of pagan ideas in combination with wonderfully made up story.

    I keep looking for historical documents covering the 35 year gap between the death of Jesus and Mark, the first gospel. There are too many contradictions and discrepancies in the gospels to think they're accurate. I have my own pet theory, but its based mostly on speculation and, of course, my dreams. Too bad you can't enter dreams into the record. As you've said, there are not witnesses.

    About witnesses! Isn't it interesting that Revelations 11 is called "The Two Witnesses?" Apparently, God has an infinity for law.

    I have no incentive to promote my pet theory; it contradicts the good news message. For me, it's satisfying to seek truth and let the chips fall where they may.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-05-2010 at 10:52 AM.

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    Re: The bible contradicts the idea of an immortal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I agree and historical documents that exist are a paltry sample. The New Testament appears to be, as you said, an amalgamation of pagan ideas in combination with wonderfully made up story.

    I keep looking for historical documents covering the 35 year gap between the death of Jesus and Mark, the first gospel. There are too many contradictions and discrepancies in the gospels to think they're accurate. I have my own pet theory, but its based mostly on speculation and, of course, my dreams. Too bad you can't enter dreams into the record. As you've said, there are not witnesses.

    About witnesses! Isn't it interesting that Revelations 11 is called "The Two Witnesses?" Apparently, God has an infinity for law.

    I have no incentive to promote my pet theory; it contradicts the good news message. For me, it's satisfying to seek truth and let the chips fall where they may.
    I've thought about that in the studyt of law. two witnesses are required for any offence(Deut. 19:15) and both Jesus and Paul advocate it in Matthew 18 and 2 Corinthians 13.

    However, once you realize that the entire structure of the bible is based on a promise made by YHVH to Abraham, and that all "God;s children" are born according to that promise, it really makes little difference in regard to any lack of historical evidence.

    Either there are certai children born according to the conditions of that prkise, which means that the rest of us cannot alter it, or there are no children, which STILL means that we can't alter it.

    Occam's razor, the simplest story that satisfies the most variables is probably the truth.

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