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Thread: Paradise lost

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    Paradise lost

    I'm bringing up an argument from another thread that atheist have failed to counter.

    In brief, the argument is as follows:

    Prior to God's intervention in human affairs (Bible), there was paradise. I believe it was during the Cambrian period (530-570 million years ago) that God's creation was at its height and therefore most pleasing to Him.

    For that period, the fossil record appears to be just about what Darwin claimed when he proposed the Cambrian period to be a problem for his theory. See Darwin Chapter ten in The Origin of Species. The fossil records say what Darwin said. Prior to the Cambrian period there are no fossil records of species. The claim by scientists that species existing prior to the Cambrian period had no skeletal structure and therefore were not fossilized cannot be proven.

    "The Precambrian record is now sufficiently good that the old rationale about undiscovered sequences of smoothly transitional forms will no longer wash.” (Stephen Jay Gould, “An Asteroid to Die For,” Discover, October 1989, p. 65)"


    Cambrian Explosion cannot be accounted for by chance alone.


    http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossilrecord.htm

    http://www.darwinsdilemma.org/pdf/faq.pdf

    http://www.discovery.org/a/12471

    http://www.learnthebible.org/cambria...evolution.html


    If God didn't do it, what's the scientific explanation for the Cambrian Explosion?
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-27-2010 at 02:48 PM.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I'm bringing up an argument from another thread that atheist have failed to counter.
    "The Precambrian record is now sufficiently good that the old rationale about undiscovered sequences of smoothly transitional forms will no longer wash.” (Stephen Jay Gould, “An Asteroid to Die For,” Discover, October 1989, p. 65)"
    That's from this thread, Muslims & Mohammad.

    No one's failed to counter the quote. We a waiting for you to provide the quote in context since we cannot locate the actual article.

    In fact I have already expanded the above quote in include some more of it, but since it has been quote mined there is not yet enough to comment on. Nor is there a way to confirm that the quote is correct. learnthebible.org,
    “The most famous such burst, the Cambrian explosion, marks the inception of modern multicellular life. Within just a few million years, nearly every major kind of animal anatomy appears in the fossil record for the first time ... The Precambrian record is now sufficiently good that the old rationale about undiscovered sequences of smoothly transitional forms will no longer wash.” (Stephen Jay Gould, “An Asteroid to Die For,” Discover, October 1989, p. 65)
    I did manage to confirm that the article exists, it is on the cover and in the table of contents of that issue. The article begins on page #60, unfortunately pages 61-66 are missing.

    Oh, and depending on the source, the Cambrain explosion lasted from 50-80 million years.

    Also, shouldn't someone as educated as you claim to be know better then to use a quote that cannot be confirmed from the original source. Very sloppy research there.
    Last edited by nomaxim; 09-27-2010 at 01:56 PM.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Cnance said:
    Prior to God's intervention in human affairs (Bible), there was paradise.
    You've already stated in the thread "If God Exists" on post # 295 that the bible isn't written by God, but by men....inspired by God...so how can you be so sure that paradise took place, especially if these writers of the bible got that "knowledge" second-hand, instead of witnessing it? In order for you to go on and lay down your postulation about the Cambrian Period as it relates to paradise you must first bring forth incontovertible evidence of the God-inspired writers of the bible writing down "true" facts about paradise, and proof that it actually existed..we already know that the Cambrian Period existed..
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Cnance said: You've already stated in the thread "If God Exists" on post # 295 that the bible isn't written by God, but by men....inspired by God...so how can you be so sure that paradise took place, especially if these writers of the bible got that "knowledge" second-hand, instead of witnessing it? In order for you to go on and lay down your postulation about the Cambrian Period as it relates to paradise you must first bring forth incontovertible evidence of the God-inspired writers of the bible writing down "true" facts about paradise, and proof that it actually existed..we already know that the Cambrian Period existed..
    You make an excellent argument against my assertion that the Cambrian Explosion was paradise. I have no prove. Yes, I believe that Bible was written by men about God.

    I had a dream about prehistoric creatures awestruck by God in paradise. All animals were prehistoric and there were no homo sapiens or creatures resembling humans. I know that 's slim evidence, but that's it. It also makes sense that God would be there when earthly creatures were in full bloom.

    I know it'll never hold to scientific scrutiny, but what if it's true?

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Yes, and..... if "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts....as the saying goes.....

    But, intellectually, don't you really have to follow the evidence? I could understand you point or passion if there were the slightest bit of evidence that supported the idea of a supernatural being but, again, it doesn't exists...and the idea of claiming "god of the gaps" is intellectually dishonest.

    My two cents.
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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Yes, and..... if "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts....as the saying goes.....

    But, intellectually, don't you really have to follow the evidence? I could understand you point or passion if there were the slightest bit of evidence that supported the idea of a supernatural being but, again, it doesn't exists...and the idea of claiming "god of the gaps" is intellectually dishonest.

    My two cents.
    That seems to be your favorite saying, "intellectual dishonesty". If I were intellectually dishonest, I would lie. Just because I dream doesn't mean I'm a lair. Do you dream? We all dream. I didn't say because I dream that you have to believe me.

    You claim science as your authority and yet you can't explain how the universe or life came about through natural processes. I've never said I have empirical evidence for God. You've said science proves I'm wrong. Well, where is the proof. Because you can't provide it, I'm under no obligation to acknowledge your criticism.

    Since you have no scientific argument for the universe or life, you are obligated as a reasonable person to evaluate my argument. If, on the other hand, you persist in allowing prejudice to influence your evaluation, I'll continue to regard your argument as biased.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    the advocacy of a position which the advocate does not know to be true, and has not performed rigorous due diligence to ensure the truthfulness of the position
    You claim science as your authority and yet you can't explain how the universe or life came about through natural processes. I've never said I have empirical evidence for God. You've said science proves I'm wrong. Well, where is the proof. Because you can't provide it, I'm under no obligation to acknowledge your criticism.
    The leading, most current explanation of how the universe came about is Big Bang. Are you that dishonest as to not acknowledge that?

    With regard to Big Bang, cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation is evidence that supports this theory.

    I can call you wrong because you have not provide a single point of evidence or data that supports your position. Furthermore, even if science is wrong....that in no way would support or prove you position. Your position has to stand on its own merits. And, it doesn't.

    Since you have no scientific argument for the universe or life, you are obligated as a reasonable person to evaluate my argument. If, on the other hand, you persist in allowing prejudice to influence your evaluation, I'll continue to regard your argument as biased.
    Your argument is a strawman. I have no prejudices against ideas that can be supported. I only judge based on the weight and validity of the evidence.

    You, on the other hand, cannot make that statement.

    Furthermore, Science has offered up a few theories on the Origins of Life (google, you might actually learn something)...and while we currently don't have all the answers, it is INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST SUBSCRIBE TO THE GOD OF THE GAPS ARGUMENT AS YOU DO.

    Tell me something. If a supernatural sky-fairy created the universe why does the evidence lead in a different direction?

    Again, you are left holding and empty bag.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    The leading, most current explanation of how the universe came about is Big Bang. Are you that dishonest as to not acknowledge that?

    With regard to Big Bang, cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation is evidence that supports this theory.

    I can call you wrong because you have not provide a single point of evidence or data that supports your position. Furthermore, even if science is wrong....that in no way would support or prove you position. Your position has to stand on its own merits. And, it doesn't.



    Your argument is a strawman. I have no prejudices against ideas that can be supported. I only judge based on the weight and validity of the evidence.

    You, on the other hand, cannot make that statement.

    Furthermore, Science has offered up a few theories on the Origins of Life (google, you might actually learn something)...and while we currently don't have all the answers, it is INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST SUBSCRIBE TO THE GOD OF THE GAPS ARGUMENT AS YOU DO.

    Tell me something. If a supernatural sky-fairy created the universe why does the evidence lead in a different direction?

    Again, you are left holding and empty bag.
    You jump to conclusions without reading postings. I never said I don't believe in the big bang. I have no problem with science, but theories must have evidence. Yes, evidence of cosmic microwaves and radiation certainly support the big bang, a miraculous event of God. However, science has not explained how the big bang came from nothing. Assuming there is no God, it would have to come from nothing, wouldn't it?

    If you don't believe the universe came from nothing, where did it come from? Why not multiple universes? That's where Hawking and other scientist are going to explain the impossible.

    Where is your evidence for life coming from natural processes? Remember, I accept evolution from "original species." According to the laws of probability, it's impossible to explain how physical laws, value constants, and life emerged by chance alone.

    By default, God did it!

    I will cease and desist from my beliefs when science fulfills it's promises (providing evidence for its theories). I am certain, however, that will never happen.

    In the meantime, I'll post what I please about God.

    Because you cannot prove your theories, you claims for science are dishonest.

    It's hypocritical of you to call me dishonest when you're doing the same. The difference is I don't claim material evidence for God while you claim science trumps religion without evidence.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-28-2010 at 06:43 PM.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    By default, God did it!
    Really? Failed logic. Where is your proof there are only two options? What about aliens? Just as much proof of their existence as for a god.....Maybe even more.

    I will cease and desist from my beliefs when science fulfills it's promises (providing evidence for its theories). I am certain, however, that will never happen.
    So, while the evidence and data science provides, piles up and can explain more and more...almost daily....you will continue to believe in your mythical sky-fairy....for which there is no proof.

    Gotcha.

    In the meantime, I'll post what I please about God.
    And lemmings will still march into the sea. Knock yourself out.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Really? Failed logic. Where is your proof there are only two options? What about aliens? Just as much proof of their existence as for a god.....Maybe even more.
    Really, assuming there have been aliens, where is the evidence. You'd think after thousands of years of visiting planet earth there would have been at least one alien spacecraft that crashed. Roswell doesn't count, we know those were weather balloons.

    How about alien beings? Do we have one single body of a alien being? You would think that at least one alien being would have fallen off a cliff or something and died. Where do dead space people go?


    So, while the evidence and data science provides, piles up and can explain more and more...almost daily....you will continue to believe in your mythical sky-fairy....for which there is no proof.

    Gotcha.
    What science is doing is explaining material aspects of the universe, not where it came from or how life came into existence from nothing. It's a little bit like mechanical engineering. Once you know angles, levers, weight loads, tables, etc, you can make things. That's what science is doing, learning about building blocks in order to make societies function. All that, of course, with God's tool kit.


    And lemmings will still march into the sea. Knock yourself out.
    [/quote]

    Assuming one isn't brainwashed, it's easy to see God's design. Everyday, I look at beautiful mountains and nature knowing humans can never duplicate God's universe.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Really, assuming there have been aliens, where is the evidence. You'd think after thousands of years of visiting planet earth there would have been at least one alien spacecraft that crashed. Roswell doesn't count, we know those were weather balloons.

    How about alien beings? Do we have one single body of a alien being? You would think that at least one alien being would have fallen off a cliff or something and died. Where do dead space people go?


    What science is doing is explaining material aspects of the universe, not where it came from or how life came into existence from nothing. It's a little bit like mechanical engineering. Once you know angles, levers, weight loads, tables, etc, you can make things. That's what science is doing, learning about building blocks in order to make societies function. All that, of course, with God's tool kit.


    Assuming one isn't brainwashed, it's easy to see God's design. Everyday, I look at beautiful mountains and nature knowing humans can never duplicate God's universe.
    Thanks for proving my point. That was much easier than I thought it would be.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: Paradise lost

    Cnance said:
    Assuming one isn't brainwashed, it's easy to see God's design. Everyday, I look at beautiful mountains and nature knowing humans can never duplicate God's universe.
    Cnance, as far as "brain-washing" goes, if someone 'believes" in something that others tell them is correct, without rigid proof, and a thorough search as to it's viability, they've brain-washed themselves by buying into the dogma. Facts are very stubborn things....
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Thanks for proving my point. That was much easier than I thought it would be.
    What point have I proven?

    I thought you just argue against anyone who disagrees with science. Obviously, you have not read my posts. I have never said science is bunk. I've said it has not fulfilled its promises to explain the origin of the universe and life.

    You forgot, I never said there was material evidence for God. This sounds familiar, haven't we been down this road before?

    You said in the future the most important questions of science will be answered. Isn't that faith? Your a science fanatic. That's your religion.

    We both believe in something we can't prove.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-29-2010 at 07:22 PM.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Nice try equating a belief in a mythical sky fairy with an understanding of scientific fact and process. Hey, it if helps you sleep at night.

    Top 10 Scientific Discoveries

    1. The Pythagorean Theorem. It's a staple of high school geometry: in every right triangle, a2 + b2 = c2 , where a and b stand for the two short sides and c for the long. The first to prove this was (probably) the Greek philosopher Pythagoras in the 6th century bc. But it's not the theorem per se that matters; it's the bigger idea it reflected. Pythagoras taught that numbers were the real reality, that the core of the physical world was mathematical. That's why he went around telling everyone, 'Here's a pure idea that is true of every actual object of a certain shape.' Coupling physics to mathematics proved to be one of the most fruitful marriages of all time. Even now we regard a scientific theory as really reliable if it can be proven mathematically.

    2. The existence of microorganisms. In the late 1600s, when microscopes were new, Dutch lens maker Antoni van Leeuwenhoek scraped some plaque off his own teeth and looked at it through a microscope. Gasp! It was crawling with "animalcules." In fact, tiny creatures invisible to the naked eye abounded everywhere, he found. Less than two centuries later, knowledge of this invisible universe enabled Louis Pasteur to construct his "germ theory of disease,"which in turn enabled doctors to conquer a whole host of diseases: typhoid, typhus, polio, diphtheria, tetanus, smallpox tuberculosis, anthrax--the list goes on. The leading cause of death changed after that from infectious disease to heart disease, cancer, and "old age." See Bacteria.


    3. The three laws of motion. Pythagoras would have been so proud of Isaac Newton! More than any scientist in history, this 18th-century Englishman succeeded in reducing physics to mathematics. Newton came up with three laws to explain the motion of all objects in the universe, from runaway trains to orbiting planets. (He also invented differential calculus, explained gravity, and discovered the spectrum*--not bad for one lifetime.)


    4. The structure of matter. In 1789, five years before he was beheaded by a guillotine, French chemist Antoine Lavoisier published a list of "elements"--substances that he said could not be broken down further by any chemical process. His list was incomplete and contained mistakes, but he was onto something. Building on his work, chemists developed our modern view that all matter can be broken down into just 109 elements, that all elements are made of atoms, and that all atoms are made of just three types of particles--protons, neutrons, and electrons.
    5. The circulation of blood. Each person has a fixed amount of blood circulating throughout his or her system in one fixed direction. This fact, first discovered in the 12th century by an Arab doctor named Ibn al-Nafīs*, was rediscovered--for good, this time--by the 17th-century English doctor William Harvey. Harvey's work opened the floodgates to research a full understanding of the physiology of living bodies, human and animal. See Circulatory System.

    6. Electrical currents. Ancient people knew about static electricity--rub something and it gives off a spark. They knew about lightning bolts--get struck by one and you're dead meat. But not till 19th-century scientists (such as Alessandro Volta*) got electricity to flow did people become aware of this as a distinct force. Today, electricity powers everything from light bulbs to computers, of course. But the discovery of electricity is bigger than its practical applications. Once scientists knew about this force, they couldn't stop wondering what it was. That's when they discovered that electricity, magnetism, radio waves, and light are all different versions of one underlying force, a glue that holds the universe together.

    7. The Evolution of Species. People used to think that every life form now on Earth was here from the start--that no new species had been born and none had ever changed. Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, developed in the 19th century, revealed the dynamic nature of life on Earth. The word "theory" leads some to think that evolution itself remains controversial among scientists, but actually, no mainstream scientist doubts that old species die out and new ones come into being. It's only the exact mechanism of evolution that remains in play, and modified versions of Darwin's idea of evolution by random natural selection still dominate biological thought.

    8. Genes. Gregor ****** never described a gene, saw one, or used the word, yet this shy Austrian monk uncovered the principals of heredity simply by breeding snow peas, charting his results, and drawing brilliant conclusions. ****** found that parents pass distinct traits to their offspring in combinations governed by predictable laws. Scientists soon decided some actual thing must carry these traits and coined the word "gene." Only in 1953, did Francis Crick and James Watson really figure out what genes are. That year, they discovered the structure of DNA, a molecule shaped like a twisted ladder and contained in every cell. Genes, it turns out, are the combinations of chemicals that form the "rungs" of this ladder. See Genetics.

    9. The four laws of thermodynamics. In the 18th century, a series of scientists from Nicolas Carnot* to Baron Kelvin, Rudolf Clausius*, and others found four laws, just four, that governed the transformation of ****** into work in any system--a locomotive, a body, a bonfire, a solar system, the universe--you name it. Engineering and inventions, especially of heat-engines, could not have moved forward without knowledge of these laws, for anything that runs on fuel is bound by them. But the laws of thermodynamics* have vast implications for the universe has a whole, not the least of which is this: The total amount of disorder is always increasing.

    10. The dual nature of light. Newton learned that light behaves like a wave. Later, other scientists learned that light behaves like a stream of particles. So which is it--wave or particle? It can't be both--or can it? Early in the 20th century, Neils Bohr, Max Planck, Albert Einstein, and others discovered that yes, light is both wave and particle.This paradox gave rise to quantum mechanics, the dominant achievement of 20th-century physics and our deepest current description of "what the universe is really made of." But the quantum picture of reality can't be "pictured." It goes against intuition and laughs at all our senses. The only way to understand the sub-subatomic world of quantum mechanics is mathematically--which brings us right back to Pythagoras.

    Source : Encarta
    Well, religion has proved one thing true....Some people will believe anything.

    We both believe in something we can't prove.
    Wrong. I will be proven and when it does, you will just deny it.
    Last edited by LogicallyYours; 09-30-2010 at 02:42 PM.
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Nice try equating a belief in a mythical sky fairy with an understanding of scientific fact and process. Hey, it if helps you sleep at night.
    I don't mind the discussion, but try to refrain from insults. It irritates me.

    I read your postings with interest. Your summary served to refresh my memory. I am familiar with much of that material. Thanks.

    Obviously, your biased. I am not anti-science. I completed science prerequisites for an engineering major and survived in that major for two years before switching disciplines, not for failure, but for lack of interest. Since then I've kept pace with progress in science and have completed an advanced degree related to advanced statistics and methodology. All of that and I still believe in God. I challenge you to find one posting where I have denigrated science. Unlike you, I don't believe science answers all questions and I don't think it will ever be a substitute for God.


    Well, religion has proved one thing true....Some people will believe anything.
    What does that mean? Does believing in God make one a moron? I don't believe in alien space ships or alien beings, nor do I believe in science as the ultimate answer to the most important questions.

    Wrong. I will be proven and when it does, you will just deny it.
    Already, according to the laws of probability, it is impossible to prove that the universe or life came about from natural processes. Those are tough facts to deny.

    Atheist are desperate to prove their beliefs. Hawking just published a book in which he claims that "multiple universes" is the explanation for the universe. How absurd it that?

    You say, I deny evidence for the possibility of science answering the most important questions.

    Would you relent and accept God if you had a face to face encounter with Him?

    You ask me to be patient and wait, I ask you if you would even entertain the possibility of waiting.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-30-2010 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: Paradise lost

    So much bullshit...so litte time.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I don't mind the discussion, but try to refrain from insults. It irritates me.

    I read your postings with interest. Your summary served to refresh my memory. I am familiar with much of that material. Thanks.

    Obviously, your biased. I am not anti-science. I completed science prerequisites for an engineering major and survived in that major for two years before switching disciplines, not for failure, but for lack of interest. Since then I've kept pace with progress in science and have completed an advanced degree related to advanced statistics and methodology. All of that and I still believe in God. I challenge you to find one posting where I have denigrated science. Unlike you, I don't believe science answers all questions and I don't think it will ever be a substitute for God.

    All your post denigrate Science as you seek to equate a myth with a Scientific Theory. Second, Science is Science. It does not attempt to be a substitute for a god. It does not demand worship or subservience. What it does demand is that you follow the evidence to where it leads.


    What does that mean? Does believing in God make one a moron? I don't believe in alien space ships or alien beings, nor do I believe in science as the ultimate answer to the most important questions.

    Actually, there is more evidence for aliens than for a god AND, Science IS ANSWERING the most important questions. The earh has been around for 4.5 billion years...Science...a few thousand....give it time. After all, everyone used to think the world was 6000 years old....DOH!

    Already, according to the laws of probability, it is impossible to prove that the universe or life came about from natural processes. Those are tough facts to deny.

    Really? Go ahead and try to make that case. What complete bullshit. Do you just make this crap up?

    Atheist are desperate to prove their beliefs. Hawking just published a book in which he claims that "multiple universes" is the explanation for the universe. How absurd it that?

    Again with the strawman. Atheist don't have "beliefs". The tennet of atheism is a non-belief in god. A belief that comes from the complete lack of evidence for a god. They don't believe in Easter Bunny either.

    Unlike you, Hawking can back his shit up.


    You say, I deny evidence for the possibility of science answering the most important questions.

    Would you relent and accept God if you had a face to face encounter with Him?

    Sure!...and if I were five inches taller, I'd be taller!

    You ask me to be patient and wait, I ask you if you would even entertain the possibility of waiting.

    Wait?...been waiting for 2010 years....you guys still can't come up with any proof of your mythical sky fairy.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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