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  1. #1
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    LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Can anyone explain to me how blasting two objects (Impactors) into the lunar surface causing plumes as high as 33-40 miles to search for water on the Moon is not getting more press coverage? Is not meeting with protests about the greed of humanity?

    I could see if it was to see if it was MAINLY geared towards colonization efforts in case of an ELE to our planet.... but it all seems to come down to Luna being viable for mining efforts (i.e. having it's own water supply).

    I SO don't want this thread turning into a Bush Bash/Support -fest, I'd just like some layman answers please. Is it all about the money? Who is this Beatty guy?

    And, I KNOW it was a box office flop, but I saw it, and the scenes from "Time Machine" keep running through my head of what happens when man tries to mine and excavate on the moon. :eek:

    The way I read it, a study ship is going up with another "subship", the subship breaks from the observing ship and splits into 2 "Impactors". The first SLAMS into the Moon somewhere near it's polar region causing a mushroom cloud that would rival the largest H-bomb test we've done here on this planet, the 2nd Impactor, flies around in the plume collecting and analysing the particles it collects (is there water? what kind of minerals?) sends that information to the mother ship and then IT turns around and slams into the SAME area with the SAME force?!?!?!

    Am I getting this right?!?

    Where are the tests that say the moon can withstand an impact like this? Where are the tests of smaller magnitude, have we hurled anything at the moon before? I mean except for a golf ball???!

    33-40 MILES HIGH? Okay, I applaud that they're NOT using nuclear weapons to do this, but how much is the program spending to make these Impactors only to turn them into missiles?

    Where does this dust go? How long will it take to settle? I know that there's still dust up in the air from Mt. St. Helen's first blast in the 80's, they've tested that. Now, the moon doesn't have an atmosphere like ours, so where does it all go? Into it's orbit? Will Luna have a ring like Saturn? Or will it head off into space and someday come back around to kick us in our a....well, you know what I mean!

    Anyone have any ideas/information about the LCROSS mission going up October 2008?!
    "Those who sling mud, lose ground."
    --me

  2. #2
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Stop Worrying. For starters gravity on the moon is less than 1/6th of that on Earth, so an equivalent dust plume on earth would be 5-6 miles high. On top of that, there is no atmosphere to get in the dust's way, its acting purely under the influence of gravity. To reach that height the dust needs to leave the ground at about 400m/s, about 30percent faster than a passenger plane travels at.

    Its not going to hang around in the atmosphere like the dust from Mt. St Helens does here because there is no atmosphere on the moon, and its not going to reach Earth because the escape velocity for the moon is over 2000m/s.

    As far as destroying the moon goes, we couldn't even if we wanted to. Its far too big, and even if we do mine it, it won't destroy it. Don't ever, ever, ever worry about what Hollywood says in regard to anything scientific.

    But the most important point:

    Go out and look at the moon at night. See how its textured, light patches and dark patches. Check out the footage from the moon landings. Craters everywhere. The moon has been bombarded for billions of years, and its still there, and we're still ok down here on Earth.

    If we want to colonize other planets or the moon, we can't afford to fly enough water there from Earth. It's very hard to get things out of Earth's gravity well. It will be necessary to eventually find an extraterrestrial source of water. Whether thats a moon or an asteroid or something else, it makes sense to check the moon first since we've been there already.

  3. #3
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    If you'd read my post a little more carefully, you will see that I understand the mission, the properties of our moon (i.e. previous impacts), and water supply. But what I'm not finding information on, is previous tests, where the funding is coming from, information on Beatty's involvement (because his philosophy seems to have nothing to do with the betterment of our race, but only the betterment of his wallet.

    And just to clarify, I do NOT believe what Hollywood puts in their movies as gospel. I just want to see info on where to find the data that says that our tests will be just like that that nature has wrought on Luna.

    So, as you sound pretty knowledgeable in the spacial aspects of this experiment, like knowing the escape velocity and such, do you have any comparative information on these Impactors vs asteroids/misc strikes on the moon. I just haven't been able to find any background information or research data on this LCROSS mission that isn't inundated with political rhetoric and/or It's All About the Money (Beatty).

    And, if the dust can't escape the moon's orbit, how long til it settles?

    I understand, water is life and necessary for any major development on any other planet.
    "Those who sling mud, lose ground."
    --me

  4. #4
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    i heard bush wants to go to mars.would'nt it be cheaper to just make his dream come true!?he could stop by the moon and use a dowsing rod from his ranch!?hehe!!get my respect in a heartbeat!?hehe!!

  5. #5
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    what I'm not finding information on, is previous tests
    We haven't done any, it's not necessary. The moon is a pretty sturdy thing :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    where the funding is coming from
    The government.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    information on Beatty's involvement (because his philosophy seems to have nothing to do with the betterment of our race, but only the betterment of his wallet.
    I have no idea, I don't think motives really matter as much as the outcome. I mean if someone does a good thing, doesn't the fact that they've done a good thing outweight that maybe they did it for selfish reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    And just to clarify, I do NOT believe what Hollywood puts in their movies as gospel. I just want to see info on where to find the data that says that our tests will be just like that that nature has wrought on Luna.

    So, as you sound pretty knowledgeable in the spacial aspects of this experiment, like knowing the escape velocity and such, do you have any comparative information on these Impactors vs asteroids/misc strikes on the moon. I just haven't been able to find any background information or research data on this LCROSS mission that isn't inundated with political rhetoric and/or It's All About the Money (Beatty).

    And, if the dust can't escape the moon's orbit, how long til it settles?

    I understand, water is life and necessary for any major development on any other planet.
    Like I said before, the moon is a sturdy thing. A couple of impacts isn't going to do it any harm at all. Here's a bit of an analogy:
    One person throws a bowling ball into the Grand Canyon, and another throws a tennis ball. Which one does more damage?
    Answer: who cares

    :p I'm not making fun of you by the way, you asked good, important questions, it's good to see you consider these things :)

  6. #6
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA


    One person throws a bowling ball into the Grand Canyon, and another throws a tennis ball. Which one does more damage?
    Answer: who cares


    Not to start an international incident here, but WOW, I thought we Americans were the leaders in Capitalism!

    Why is it that all kiwi guys are cute but arrogant? LOL

    I know it's really hard to guess someone's "tone of voice" from text... but I have to say, you sound like you're trying to explain something to a 3 year old. I'm almost 12 TIMES that, so make with the more technical talk, eh?

    And I hate to resort to this....because you'll go back to thinking I'm some Inquirer nut that puts great stock in movies....but it's a great line (from Jurassic Park)... something about.... he did it because he could, but didn't stop to think about if he SHOULD.

    Dangit! Will have to watch the movie again to get that right.

    Enough with the "there,there, love , you just don't worry your silly little empty head about what we're doing with your money", I was looking for some answers, in a forum where, present company included, there seems to be some intelligence. Non-answers, like "don't worry about it", I'm not interested in.

    And I mean that with the deepest respect.

    And, yes, of course, I believe that doing something good outweighs a lot of things, but that doesn't seem to be the goal. Show me the money seems to be the name of the game. It's MY tax dollars that are contributing to the thing, but it should be the guy that is going to make the big bucks off this thing (Beatty), needs to pay us back when he gets up and running. LOL
    "Those who sling mud, lose ground."
    --me

  7. #7
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    Not to start an international incident here, but WOW, I thought we Americans were the leaders in Capitalism!

    Why is it that all kiwi guys are cute but arrogant?
    Good to see racism still alive and kicking even in a science forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    I know it's really hard to guess someone's "tone of voice" from text... but I have to say, you sound like you're trying to explain something to a 3 year old. I'm almost 12 TIMES that, so make with the more technical talk, eh?
    You're right that it is really hard to guess someone's tone of voice from text. In this case you guessed wrong, but you're probably guessing right right now. In case you aren't, I'm annoyed, the tone of my voice is "annoyed", but still not condescending or arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    And I hate to resort to this....because you'll go back to thinking I'm some Inquirer nut that puts great stock in movies....but it's a great line (from Jurassic Park)... something about.... he did it because he could, but didn't stop to think about if he SHOULD.
    If there were any possible consequences from the action other than mildly disrupting the surface of the Moon perhaps the "should" question should be asked, but considering there aren't, there's no point.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    Enough with the "there,there, love , you just don't worry your silly little empty head about what we're doing with your money", I was looking for some answers, in a forum where, present company included, there seems to be some intelligence. Non-answers, like "don't worry about it", I'm not interested in.
    By all means, worry about what they're doing with your money. A valid question would still be "is it a worth-while mission?". I'm simply saying the question of whether or not it would be damaging to the Moon has an answer, and that answer is "no".

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    And, yes, of course, I believe that doing something good outweighs a lot of things, but that doesn't seem to be the goal. Show me the money seems to be the name of the game. It's MY tax dollars that are contributing to the thing, but it should be the guy that is going to make the big bucks off this thing (Beatty), needs to pay us back when he gets up and running. LOL
    The goal is to make observations about the Moon. The purpose is what may differ but not the goal. My point was... If someone pulls a person from a car-crash and saves their life, they've saved a life. They may've done it because they wanted to save a life, they may've done it to be labelled a hero, they may've done it for any number of reasons, but the goal and end-result was the same.
    Whether or not Beatty makes money from it doesn't change the obervations made.

  8. #8
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by pinchegringo
    I don't want Bush to go to Mars, Hell would be a better place for his F'n ass.
    What does Mars have to do with anything? If you want to Bush-bash, do it in the political forum, not here.

  9. #9
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    i heard bush wants to go to mars.would'nt it be cheaper to just make his dream come true!?he could stop by the moon and use a dowsing rod from his ranch!?hehe!!get my respect in a heartbeat!?hehe!!
    Dude keep on topic, especially when the thread-starter has expressly asked for this not to become about Bush. I'm not making threats or anything you know you're my main man but come on, if you're gonna take it off topic you could at least make it as nonsensicle as you normally do so that this thread doesn't turn political :) Cheers

  10. #10
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Weekly World News: New Plan to Blow Up Moon

    I b'lieve DiscomJOBulated's concern is with the past, present, and future exploitation of the moon; not with boy geniuses throwing rocks at it.

    "What have they done to the moon?
    What have they done to our fair sister?
    Ravaged and plundered
    and ripped her and bit her
    Stuck her with knives
    in the side of the dawn
    and tied her with fences
    and dragged her down"


    (with apologies to Jim Morrison.)

    What will have changed, in Homo Sapiens var. sap, when we have made the moon- once an object of mystery and veneration- merely a source of raw materials for Terran industries, and a waystation for space traffic.

    Will we lose some essential part of our atman, when the first StarbucksĀ© opens on the Mare Crisium ?

  11. #11
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by dr poormouth
    Weekly World News: New Plan to Blow Up Moon

    I b'lieve DiscomJOBulated's concern is with the past, present, and future exploitation of the moon; not with boy geniuses throwing rocks at it.

    "What have they done to the moon?
    What have they done to our fair sister?
    Ravaged and plundered
    and ripped her and bit her
    Stuck her with knives
    in the side of the dawn
    and tied her with fences
    and dragged her down"


    (with apologies to Jim Morrison.)

    What will have changed, in Homo Sapiens var. sap, when we have made the moon- once an object of mystery and veneration- merely a source of raw materials for Terran industries, and a waystation for space traffic.

    Will we lose some essential part of our atman, when the first StarbucksĀ© opens on the Mare Crisium ?
    No real expert would ever say that blowing up the Moon is a good idea. Earth relies heavily on the Moon and would become uninhabitable without it.
    Seasons and tides are essential to life on this planet. I would firmly oppose the blowing up of the Moon if it were actually being considered, as would every other real scientist, but I think that article is a fake or just a horribly wrong paranoid conspiracy.
    I have no problem using our moon as a source of materials and a waystation, that's a very logical option to allow us better and cheaper space travel. But getting rid of it entirely is the most stupid idea ever and it would never be allowed, the person giving that order would be killed, literally, because they would be ending billions of lives. Trillions.

  12. #12
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Umm, you know that Weekly World News is a satirical paper right? Its funny how often it gets taken seriously. Yahoo News actually stole a story from them about an interstellar, planet dissolving, dust cloud that was headed for Earth, and put it on their site not realising it was a joke,.

  13. #13
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    Umm, you know that Weekly World News is a satirical paper right? Its funny how often it gets taken seriously. Yahoo News actually stole a story from them about an interstellar, planet dissolving, dust cloud that was headed for Earth, and put it on their site not realising it was a joke,.
    Yeah it seemed fake (like I said in my last post) :)
    SatireWire is my favourite fake news site. This is one of my all-time favourites, titled "Americans annoyed by international sh!t on internet" hahaha:
    http://www.satirewire.com/news/0010/international.shtml

  14. #14
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Awwww, well, dang. I said you were cute, I said you were intelligent, and NOW you're annoyed? Sigh. BTW. Being a kiwi dude is actually a point in your favor for we American women. Without you having to do a thing, LOL.

    I find admirable anyone that would risk themselves to save someone else. And I'm all for using resources from other planets while taking better care of our own. (or replenishing our own). This is where the crux is in my point (yeah, I have one!) in all the articles I've read, it's about business, making money...

    I am NOT a racist. That's one word you couldn't EVER apply to me! I just picked up on some online chat friends calling themselves kiwis, I made the mistake of thinking that that wasn't a derogatory name....my apologies if it is. I'm a member of the human race, the only race I know, we're all brothers.

    I appreciate your replies, as not many people seem to know/care about this topic. I was trying to keep it light, and it was not my intention to upset or "annoy" anyone.

    Exactly Doc. I'm not exactly a tree-hugger, but I have concerns.

    Lexx, you gave me a visual I just couldn't get out of my head. LOL
    "Those who sling mud, lose ground."
    --me

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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Racism applies to positive stereotypes as well as negative, so derogatory has no factor in whether it's racist or not :) I don't find kiwi to be a negative term, not offensive at all, by the way.

    Anyway the point is that these relatively small explosions on the Moon pose no threat to it or us.

  16. #16
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    Re: LCROSS mission/ NASA

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscomJOBulated
    ...but they've never done smaller.

    I KNOW, I KNOW, the moon is NOT made of cheese, and can handle this, but why not a series of smaller impacts? Or is it like, Well, guys, we've got enough money for one shot at this, so how big can we go without going crazy?

    For sure, you and I can go 'round and 'round on this, and if they're going up in October, this has probably been on the books for years.

    Here you go, Lexx...see attachment
    Yes but we know how large the Moon is and how much downward pressure the explosives will exert on it, so it's just a bit of math to know the explosions would have to be much bigger to do anything to the moon's orbit, shape, rotation, etc :)
    Last edited by SubJunk; 07-07-2006 at 10:39 AM.
    "Those who sling mud, lose ground."
    --me

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