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  1. #1
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    Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triathlon

    "The best case against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-not-political

    Megrahi release was compassionate, not political

    Scotland had nothing to gain from releasing Megrahi and the fact a dying man isn't dead yet does not change that.


    When he released Abdelbaset al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds, the Scottish justice secretary made it clear he understood the pain his decision would cause the families of those killed in the Lockerbie atrocity.

    "Those who have been bereaved cannot be expected to forget, let alone forgive," said Kenny MacAskill.

    The fact that Megrahi is still alive has clearly and understandably increased the anger of the relatives of his victims. But although recent revelations may have raised important questions for others, they do not challenge the original reasons given by the Scottish government for Megrahi's release.

    Last August MacAskill said he had been told by doctors that Megrahi's terminal cancer was likely to kill him within three months but that "he may die sooner he may live longer". Confronted with the best medical estimates at the time and in line with the Scottish justice system's allowance for release on compassionate grounds, the justice secretary made his decision.

    The SNP government's opponents have since used a Scottish parliament committee to hold an inquiry into the decision in a tawdry attempt to gain domestic political advantage. Despite the predictable criticism of the procedures followed, even the opposition members admitted in their report that MacAskill's decision was made in good faith.

    Now another inquiry is to be held on a grander stage the US senate.

    In all this, it is important to remember that the Scottish government specifically rejected the bid by Tripoli to transfer Megrahi to a Libyan jail. Indeed, in one of his first statements as Scottish first minister, Alex Salmond furiously criticised the way the British government had negotiated the prisoner transfer agreement. Fearing that a deal was being done behind their backs, Scottish ministers then tried, unsuccessfully, to secure an exclusion from that agreement for anyone involved in the Lockerbie air disaster.

    David Miliband's opportunistic criticism this week of the decision to release Megrahi sits uneasily with the fact he was foreign secretary at the time the agreement was concluded. It is the circumstances surrounding this agreement and any lobbying by BP that might have taken place that is to be the subject of the hearings next week by the US senate foreign relations committee.

    It will indeed be interesting to find out more about links between major oil corporations, national governments and foreign policy. In Afghanistan, for example, the journalist Ahmed Rashid has written extensively on the interplay between US foreign policy, the rise of the Taliban and oil pipelines.

    As far as the Libyan agreement is concerned there may well be issues for UK ministers to address, but not for the Scottish government. As a devolved administration it has no access to any BP tax revenues these flow directly into the Treasury, and it is forbidden from playing a formal role in international affairs. There were no political, economic or diplomatic advantages for the SNP government in releasing Megrahi.

    Instead the decision it took was based on the devolved justice [email protected] it has and the application of compassion and humanity, however mistaken many people believe that to be. The fact that a dying man is not yet dead does not change that fact.

  3. #3
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Uh huh, but he is unique, in the sense that he has remained alive longer than anyone to ever have been released on compassionate grounds(sic).

    I think the evidence that suggested he was dying needs to be made public.

    YWFT
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Uh huh, but he is unique, in the sense that he has remained alive longer than anyone to ever have been released on compassionate grounds(sic).

    I think the evidence that suggested he was dying needs to be made public.

    YWFT
    Not true Steve. It happens, and its happened before:

    Salmond stressed the doctors made the "best estimates" for the life expectancy of Megrahi.

    He pointed out that Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs had been released in England before Megrahi, and he too was still alive.

    Asked if he regretted the decision, Salmond said: "There have been three previous examples of prisoners released on such grounds who have lived more than a year.

    "Nobody is seriously doubting the good faith the decision was made in."

  5. #5
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    And the evidence HAS been made public, everything that was used by the Justice Secretary was released AT THE TIME.

    His decision was made based on the medical report from the Scottish Prison Service Medical Director. It was based on the evidence from Scottish cancer experts. The only thing not released was hand written case notes by doctors! You know, the stuff that you wouldnt expect to be released publicly.


    Everything about the compassionate release was consistent and correct, even the other political parties in Hollyrood agreed with that when they conducted their inquiry in eary 2010. The only question is whether the Justice Secretary should have decided to keep this one man in prison until dead, and that would have been unique, and entirely political. People can argue over that decision if they want, not the integrity of the process and decision.

    Note: there are only 2 documents not released by the Scottish government - one the USA wouldnt let them release (?) and one the UK wouldnt let them release (?).
    Last edited by thistle; 07-21-2010 at 07:41 AM.

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Uh huh, but he is unique, in the sense that he has remained alive longer than anyone to ever have been released on compassionate grounds(sic).

    I think the evidence that suggested he was dying needs to be made public.

    YWFT
    There may be more to this than meets the eye.

    In fact, his co-defendant was acquitted.

    Megrahi himself was convicted on pretty flimsy evidence which consisted of nothing more than the testimony of a merchant who claims to have sold him the clothing found in the suitcase which was carrying the bomb.

    Maybe it was more convenient to let him off like this.

    On the other hand, giving compassionate dispensation to a guy who mass murdered hundreds of innocent people means somebody guilty of a much lesser offense - somebody who may merit the consideration - was passed over.

    Then again, there's Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. whose crimes make Megrahi look like a Boy Scout. And they're all living lives of resplendent privilege.

    There's no justice in this world.

    Deal with it.

    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-21-2010 at 08:08 AM.
    "The best case against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    On the other hand, giving compassionate dispensation to a guy who mass murdered hundreds of innocent people means somebody guilty of a much lesser offense - somebody who may merit the consideration - was passed over.
    Tell me how you work that one out.

    Every person in Scotland in the last decade who has applied for compassionate release, and who has met the conditions in law, has been granted compassionate release. Its not a quota system.

    For a full analysis of the law in Scotland, and how much discretion the Justice Secretary has, see: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info/200...w/#comment-836

    Had the Justice Secretary turned round last month and said I know it’s never been the policy to allow the seriousness of the crime to trump terminal illness, but in reaction to this case I am changing that, ex hypothesi retrospectively, he’d have been challenged by judicial review, and I repeat that I think the prospects of that challenge succeeding would in my opinion have been excellent.
    Also:
    I cannot imagine that the release of Megrahi will in a few years be seen as a worse decision than the UK Government’s decision to release seventy-eight murderers who had collectively murdered far more people than were murdered at Lockerbie; or the US Governments decision to release a murderer of (per his conviction) twenty-two after three and a half years house arrest; or the UK Government’s decision that Pinochet should never face murder charges because of his supposedly poor health.
    This recent focus on this case is all about US politics and oil. All the information, documents, and sleaze where it exists (see Tony Blair's government and the Prisoner Transfer Agreement) were the same in August 2009 as they are now.
    Last edited by thistle; 07-21-2010 at 08:32 AM.

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Tell me how you work that one out.

    Every person in Scotland in the last decade who has applied for compassionate release, and who has met the conditions in law, has been granted compassionate release. Its not a quota system.
    Oh..I dunno.

    I think somebody suffering with a bout of toe fungus is far more deserving of compassionate release than a terrorist who blows up a passenger jet with over 200 people on it.

    Letting this guy out makes a mockery of the entire principle being used as a pretext for his release.

    Now, at least in theory, he could do it again.

    I travel to Europe and the UK a lot.

    How about a little compassion for the traveling public?

    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-21-2010 at 10:13 AM.
    "The best case against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"
    -- Winston Churchill

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    This recent focus on this case is all about US politics and oil.
    How did you come to that conclusion?
    **********
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleP View Post
    How did you come to that conclusion?
    Because nothing has changed in the 11 months, this issue could have been brought up before by Senators, and all the info they are looking for is already available. Fuck, I've posted it enough times. It's about BP now being a political issue in the leadup to the US elections.


    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie
    I think somebody suffering with a bout of toe fungus is far more deserving of compassionate release than a terrorist who blows up a passenger jet with over 200 people on it.

    Letting this guy out makes a mockery of the entire principle being used as a pretext for his release.
    You're not getting it. Thats the whole point - more deserving is irrelevant. Read what I posted before by an expert in Scottish Law ... "it’s never been the policy to allow the seriousness of the crime to trump terminal illness". Compassionate release in this country on medical grounds is not graded by how serious the crime.

    Of course the final decision was down to one man, the Justice Secretary, and he cold have said no, keep him in prison until he dies. He decided, brave decision, that that was the wrong thing to do. Theres legal justification for saying that, as I posted.

    But I have no problem with people who argue he should have made a different decision, for this one special case. Its the suggestion it wasnt consistent and "in good faith" that I am arguing against.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie
    Now, at least in theory, he could do it again.
    ITs one of the conditions of compassionate release - the advice has to be he is not a threat. If he is a threat, an operative for Libya who are currently best pals with US and UK and are bombing noone, I dont see it myself.

    Also, if he doesnt deserve compassion as he dies, what about the IRA bombers and Unionist bombers, all let out under the US approved agreement in Northern Ireland. I wont list other examples. They were let out under political agreements, this guy was let out to die. Theres some staggering hypocrisy here.
    Last edited by thistle; 07-21-2010 at 10:41 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    There may be more to this than meets the eye.

    In fact, his co-defendant was acquitted.

    Megrahi himself was convicted on pretty flimsy evidence which consisted of nothing more than the testimony of a merchant who claims to have sold him the clothing found in the suitcase which was carrying the bomb.

    Maybe it was more convenient to let him off like this.

    On the other hand, giving compassionate dispensation to a guy who mass murdered hundreds of innocent people means somebody guilty of a much lesser offense - somebody who may merit the consideration - was passed over.

    Then again, there's Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. whose crimes make Megrahi look like a Boy Scout. And they're all living lives of resplendent privilege.

    There's no justice in this world.

    Deal with it.

    .
    is this 1 of those, "we know he's guilty", we just cant prove it beyond a doubt!? or, "someone has to pay", so the best justice that comes out is that he is released compassionately!? :cwm2: :spin2: : :
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Because nothing has changed in the 11 months, this issue could have been brought up before by Senators, and all the info they are looking for is already available. Fuck, I've posted it enough times. It's about BP now being a political issue in the leadup to the US elections.
    I don't buy that for 1 second. This sewer rat murdered 200+ people in the most cowardly way and he gets "compassionate" release????

    So now we can't possbily be concerned for justice in America because you people want to make it some retarded argument about oil or politics???

    Very weak argument Thistle... Very weak. Where is your compassion for the victims of this rodents actions? I have a feeling no matter what they find with BP or other wise, you will only see it the way you want too.
    **********
    "I have never understood why it is considered "greed" to keep the money you've earned, but not greed to want to take somebody else's money"

    - Thomas Sowell
    http://www.tsowell.com/

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  13. #13
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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Not true Steve. It happens, and its happened before:
    So, what would you say to George Foulkes, then?




    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/po...obe.6431062.jp



    Foulkes wants Lockerbie bomber probe re-opened


    THE Scottish Parliament's justice committee was today urged to reopen its inquiry into Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill's decision to release the Lockerbie bomber.
    As a diplomatic storm continued to rage over the release nearly a year ago of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmet Al-Megrahi, who was said to have just three months to live, Lothians Labour MSP George Foulkes attacked "ill-informed speculation" about BP's involvement.

    But he claimed Mr Megrahi had lived longer than any other prisoner granted compassionate release, and he wrote to justice committee convener, Tory MSP Bill Aitken, asking him to "urgently consider reopening the inquiry".

    Lord Foulkes said: "This is now urgent because of ill-informed speculation that BP was involved in the decision to release Mr Megrahi.

    "Kenny MacAskill has stated repeatedly that the release decision was based on compassionate grounds claiming medical evidence. Mr MacAskill has also repeatedly said the decision was his alone. However, since it is now over a year since the medical examination and Mr Al-Megrahi is unique as the only such compassionate release prisoner who has lived so long, it would be appropriate if you were to agree that your committee should look again at this case."

    He said it was also important to indicate to the bereaved relatives that the Scottish Parliament treated their concerns seriously, as David Cameron was meeting the US relatives of the Lockerbie dead.

    Lord Foulkes suggested if the decision to reopen the inquiry was made now, Mr MacAskill could be called before the committee soon after MSPs return from recess. He urged the committee to consider how the medical evidence on which the release was agreed could be made public.

    "In spite of my persistent efforts with the Scottish Government, the local authority responsible for Mr Al-Megrahi's supervision, and the Information Commissioner, they have refused to release this information which is vital."

    Earlier this year, the justice committee produced a report in which Labour, Tory and Lib Dem members criticised Mr MacAskill for a "lack of clarity" over his decision. It also argued further medical opinions should have been sought and said more consideration should have been given to releasing Mr Al-Megrahi into secure accommodation here. The SNP branded the inquiry a "kangaroo court".

    After talks with President Barack Obama in Washington yesterday, Prime Minister David Cameron repeated his view that the release of Mr Megrahi had been "completely wrong" and said he had ordered a review of the paperwork to see if more should be released, but he rejected calls for a full inquiry
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    There may be more to this than meets the eye.

    In fact, his co-defendant was acquitted.

    Megrahi himself was convicted on pretty flimsy evidence which consisted of nothing more than the testimony of a merchant who claims to have sold him the clothing found in the suitcase which was carrying the bomb.

    Maybe it was more convenient to let him off like this.

    On the other hand, giving compassionate dispensation to a guy who mass murdered hundreds of innocent people means somebody guilty of a much lesser offense - somebody who may merit the consideration - was passed over.

    Then again, there's Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. whose crimes make Megrahi look like a Boy Scout. And they're all living lives of resplendent privilege.

    There's no justice in this world.

    Deal with it.

    .
    Uh huh, so next time Israel do some shit, can we expect you to just suck that one up, and 'deal with it'.

    Right then.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleP View Post
    I don't buy that for 1 second. This sewer rat murdered 200+ people in the most cowardly way and he gets "compassionate" release????
    He did, yes. As I said, the law on this matter isnt graded by severity of the crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleP View Post
    So now we can't possbily be concerned for justice in America because you people want to make it some retarded argument about oil or politics???
    You can be as concerned as you like DP. I'm just pointing out theres no dodgy deals, not involving the Scottish government anyway. All this info is already out there. Seriously, go back and read the original threads on this from 11 months ago. Nothing has changed, except the guy has outlived the 3 months. Which happens. Talk to Blair and his attempt to get the guy transferred back to Libya healthy under a prisoner trsansfer agreement if youre looking for dodgy oil deals.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleP View Post
    Very weak argument Thistle... Very weak. Where is your compassion for the victims of this rodents actions? I have a feeling no matter what they find with BP or other wise, you will only see it the way you want too.
    There were victims here in Scotland too you know. Of course I have compassion for the victims. Again, my point is the release was not about BP or oil. It was purely about Scottish law. There no reason for the Scottish govt to release him at the behest of BP. All the evidence about this is already out there DP. BP wanted UK to sign a PTA with Libya, because Libya were using that as a reason not to sign contracts with them. (US oil companies were already signed up). Blair, behind the backs of the Scottish govt who were the only ones who could ever transfer him, signed the deal, and later that day BP got their oil deal. The Scottish govt were furious.

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    Re: Pan Am 103 Lockerbie Bomber Wins Libyan Triath

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    He did, yes. As I said, the law on this matter isnt graded by severity of the crime.
    Then that is a travesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    You can be as concerned as you like DP. I'm just pointing out theres no dodgy deals, not involving the Scottish government anyway. All this info is already out there. Seriously, go back and read the original threads on this from 11 months ago. Nothing has changed, except the guy has outlived the 3 months. Which happens. Talk to Blair and his attempt to get the guy transferred back to Libya healthy under a prisoner transfer agreement if youre looking for dodgy oil deals.
    I realize you keep saying that but apparently there are others way more in the know than you or your links who have a major difference here... I want to know as an American if there was any shady deal going on.

    BP or otherwise.... I want to see what this investigation brings out. No offense Thistle but links on a web site is all well and good but as I said, others who have far more knowledge than you or I see a possible problem... I think I will wait for them. Either way, this guy walking free is a complete disgrace.
    **********
    "I have never understood why it is considered "greed" to keep the money you've earned, but not greed to want to take somebody else's money"

    - Thomas Sowell
    http://www.tsowell.com/

    *********

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