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    Oil's bitter water and prophesy

    Revelations 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a storch, fell from the sky on a thrid of the rivers and on the springs of water --- the name of the star was wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
    Last edited by Cnance; 05-16-2010 at 07:43 PM. Reason: errors

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Revelations 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazig like a storch, fell from the sky on a thrid os the rivers and on the springs of water --- the name of the star was wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
    Which brings to mind McGillicuddys' Law, which reads:

    "never EVER post on an internet forum when drunk"
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Well, Okay, all of you. I'll go back to the drawing boards.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    iamwil

    Genesis and Revelation are metaphysical allegory, never to be read as literal.

    it isn't true because it is in the bible, it is in the bible because at one point in time man thought it fit his agenda as truth and included it.

    For every generation for 2,000 years man has thought the end and second coming would be during their lifetimes and have pointed at the signs.

    All the whiile never understanding heaven on earth could be realized here and now by opening upto the Christ within.
    I believe Revelations came from the Lord God. Actually, I believe Revelations is the only divinely inspired scripture of the NT. I admit I'm a minority of one. I believe Jesus was the Lord God, not his son. There was no son. God (Yahweh) came to earth as Jesus. The gospels and Paul are cover up stories for the brutal murder of God.

    The descriptive content and heavenly images of Revelation are too real to ignore.

    Because I believe Jesus was God, I am a Christian. Whereas most Christians believe in the trinity, I believe God is two entities in one. When God revealed himself to humans, there was considerable confusion about Him. Thus, not being able to understand that God was two persons, both equal in power, glory and holiness, biblical authors made up the the son and father story.

    By accepting God as Two, I am part way there. I do not however believe in the Holy Spirit. Even though the HS is in the OT, I do not believe it's separate from God. Unfortunately, NT authors abused the concept by infering that humans can be possessed by the HS. That abuse has manifested itself in hundreds of years of abusive clerical authority over parishioners.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe Revelations came from the Lord God. Actually, I believe Revelations is the only divinely inspired scripture of the NT. I admit I'm a minority of one. I believe Jesus was the Lord God, not his son. There was no son. God (Yahweh) came to earth as Jesus. The gospels and Paul are cover up stories for the brutal murder of God.

    The descriptive content and heavenly images of Revelation are too real to ignore.

    Because I believe Jesus was God, I am a Christian. Whereas most Christians believe in the trinity, I believe God is two entities in one. When God revealed himself to humans, there was considerable confusion about Him. Thus, not being able to understand that God was two persons, both equal in power, glory and holiness, biblical authors made up the the son and father story.

    By accepting God as Two, I am part way there. I do not however believe in the Holy Spirit. Even though the HS is in the OT, I do not believe it's separate from God. Unfortunately, NT authors abused the concept by infering that humans can be possessed by the HS. That abuse has manifested itself in hundreds of years of abusive clerical authority over parishioners.
    iamwil Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Genesis and Revelation are metaphysical allegory, never to be read as literal.

    it isn't true because it is in the bible, it is in the bible because at one point in time man thought it fit his agenda as truth and included it.

    For every generation for 2,000 years man has thought the end and second coming would be during their lifetimes and have pointed at the signs.

    All the whiile never understanding heaven on earth could be realized here and now by opening upto the Christ within.
    Here is a perfect example of religion doing what it does best....confusing people so much that they must pick and choose what to believe in their own bible....even though all of their religious truths are contained in their "Holy Bible," by their own accounts. Iamwil, where in the King James Bible does it say that some stories are only "metaphysical allegory?" Is there another book written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John that explains this as a fact? This dilemma leaves the believer's reality hanging virtually by a thread! It is only a collection of stories that has nothing to prove, because it can prove nothing. It has no proofs to turn to! It only needs someone with a belief system in wishing and hoping! Then these believers ONLY choose to believe in items that sound good, and then disregard other items because they don't "sound true,"or those things "offend my personal beliefs about God," even though they also appear in the same bible. How convenient to cherry-pick pieces from your own, true, "good book!" So much for "The Truth" of the bible. Logically speaking, if the bible is the real Word Of God, then it is ENTIRELY TRUE, or it is NOT the Word Of God and that makes it ENTIRELY FALSE! Sorry...it can't be "a little bit true and a little bit false," since the writers of the bible were supposed to be "Divinely Inspired!" The true belief of all Christians is that the bible is the undeniable "Word Of God," which means all 'contradictions" within the bible cannot be contradictions, errors, misprints, mistakes, or flights of fantasy! This means the bible is all real, and reality is false.....

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    First ya gotta realize the King James Bible is riddled with errors. You take a number of books written 1800-3000 years ago and try to interpret and translate them and you are going to have errors. We have no, none, zero originals of anything, but today we have more and older copies than the creators of the KJV had. The KJV even then wasn't gospel, it was King Jame's VERSION of the bible, not your version or my version or the version, but King James Version, written upon his agenda. Just as each book was written upon that authors agenda Logically speaking the above statement lacks logic. Exactly why does it have to be entirely true or entirely false? Beyond that even if it was all false there are morals and benefits to fables and stories. We know the mouse never pulled the thorn from the lion's paw, but that shouldn't stop us from helping out our fellow man....the parable of the good samaritan, didn't happen, but the story has value, it has even more value if you know/learn the traditions of the time that are associated with the story No that is the true belief of Christians that truely believe that. But we know the creation story is a creation story. As a matter of fact we know it is two creation stories, the Yahweh and Elohem story, the Bethelehem and Jerusalem story, Gen1 and Gen2 are not the same because they are two diferent creation stories, and each group insisted their story be included. Just as Mathew Mark Luke and John were written each correcting the previous's errors in the new authors eyes (despite none of them being eye witnesses) and with the new authors agenda and written for the new authors audience.

    Knowing what it is and accepting it for what it is does not detract from it.
    Originally Posted by GHOST DOG
    Logically speaking, if the bible is the real Word Of God, then it is ENTIRELY TRUE, or it is NOT the Word Of God and that makes it ENTIRELY FALSE! Sorry...it can't be "a little bit true and a little bit false," since the writers of the bible were supposed to be "Divinely Inspired!"
    Logically speaking the above statement lacks logic. Exactly why does it have to be entirely true or entirely false?
    Logic dictates that whenever anything is claimed to be "True," ie. "The Word Of God" IT IS JUST EXACTLY THAT....any deviation from the truth is an untruth, obviously not written by God, or God made a mistake! In other words, what kind of God do you believe in? What kind of Christian are you??? Every real, true Christian I have ever talked to tells me that the bible IS the true word Of God!!! Is this a convenient "way out" of the dilemma of Faith that comes with biblical interpretation??? Only a logical assumption, isn't it??? Overall, I see no justification for making this book, based on it's contents, a requirement for one's life. And if you think that the bible offers some sort of solace to people, then you haven't read it's filthy and disgusting portions. Some more of the "pick and choose" technique, I presume!

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    First ya gotta realize the King James Bible is riddled with errors.
    Logically speaking, why would one bet their entire life on a book that is "riddled with errors?"

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Logically speaking, why would one bet their entire life on a book that is "riddled with errors?"
    I believe the answer lies within Pascal's Wager.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    I believe the answer lies within Pascal's Wager.
    A bet is still only a bet. The claim that the bible is The Word of God proposes that either God wrote it personally, or as I have heard it from my Christian Friends, God INSPIRED those who wrote the bible. This tells me that if the bible is truly The Word Of God, then The Laws Of Physics have changed over the last 2000 years, or He is a liar. Or the bible...is...just...a collection basket of fantasies and exagerations that some of us put all of our eggs into...hoping against hope that somehow it will "save me" from utter damnation. Some of us would still rather have working, observable truths in our lives! When some religious advocate comes on here posting about something in the bible that "can't be true" 3 weeks ago, but it is true today, it will always invite a response from people that don't want to hear it. Then one of them will tell me that I shouldn't take the bible "literally." How else should I take this collection of UNBELIEVABLE thoughts written down in tangible book form that is their major proof that there is supposed to be a God? The only thought that comes to my mind when I hear this is "This person has created God in his own image and likeness."

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Posted by iamwil
    I'll give you divinely inspired, but not to be literally read as anything.
    You did post this ,did you not???

    And you say it is the only book (revelations) divinely inspried? You toss the rest of the gospels out with the bath water?
    I say again, one day its the God's truth, and another day its a fib. Are you a used car salesman, by chance?
    I suppose I'll repeat, not written by G!d, written, interpreted, translated, edited, by man, numersous men, numerous times.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Posted by iamwil
    That's great, tis called free will, your choice, not a problem for me. Are you somehow in charge of determining what I read?
    Now, how could I influence, or want to influence your thoughts?That is up to the prostheletizers of your Christian "faith," and your own reception. I'm not selling a thing....only questioning those who would shine me and other non-believers on with their fantasies. Look, you seem like you don't follow a mainstream religion....you don't seem to believe in the bible as a truth tool. You say one time that the bible is divinely inspired by God in your post to Cnance, yet you contradict yourself a little later with your post to me.....sounds like you would like it both ways. Just some thoughts.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    lol, a truth tool. You got folks chasing you around with the bible trying to save ya? I can't think this is so hard to counter or defend that it actually worries you.

    Face your fears invite those pesky Christians in and get into discussions with them.

    Yes divinely inspired. Yes they got the word, but were not able to translate that word so it could be understood by others.

    Of course then there are books like Jonah which are essentially an op-ed piece like Gullivers Travels, stories about the powers that be that couldn't be told straightforward without retribution, so you create some mythology...or maybe you prefer to beleive that a man lived in the belly of a big fish for three days....
    You got folks chasing you around with the bible trying to save ya? I can't think this is so hard to counter or defend that it actually worries you.
    Whether or not I have others chasing me around is irrelevant...you know that....I think? The crux of the whole matter is, again, which statement you want to throw your weight behind...you cannot have the bible Divinely inspired and not Divinely inspired. Tell me, is this a truth you tell yourself and others that you made up? Does it change so you can seem to be seen as right? I understand, if that is the case. As to your sentence about 'countering' or defending, I have no counter or defense....except asking you one more time to clarify what you mean ...it is confusing to most people to hear two different takes on Divine inspiration regarding the bible.
    Yes divinely inspired. Yes they got the word, but were not able to translate that word so it could be understood by others.
    You see...this is what is so confusing. If God inspired these people, the writers of the bible, why didn't He clear up their misconceptions? This makes the bible really seem outlandish, don't you think? I get the feeling that you are trying to build a bridge across a river by hanging the first pieces from a sky-hook...Sorry, I don't see any firm ground for your premises, nor, I think, does anyone else reading these posts.
    Face your fears invite those pesky Christians in and get into discussions with them.
    Sir, or madame...I've seen more than most sixty-two year-old males have......I have been shot at, bayonetted almost to death, and more......I'm really very short on the kind of fear you are writing about here. By all that I know, I should be dead.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    lol, a truth tool. You got folks chasing you around with the bible trying to save ya? I can't think this is so hard to counter or defend that it actually worries you.

    Face your fears invite those pesky Christians in and get into discussions with them.

    Yes divinely inspired. Yes they got the word, but were not able to translate that word so it could be understood by others.

    Of course then there are books like Jonah which are essentially an op-ed piece like Gullivers Travels, stories about the powers that be that couldn't be told straightforward without retribution, so you create some mythology...or maybe you prefer to beleive that a man lived in the belly of a big fish for three days....
    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Becuase there is no He. No anthropomorphic entity. No thing. G!d is Inspiration.If so, then why does it trouble you so?
    If so, then why does it trouble you so?
    If it seems that I'm upset its because I would like you to stop running and give me an explanation that holds water. You remember the contradictory statements made to Cnance and me? Divinely inspired bible, partially inspired, or not. I see that now you're stating that your God is Inspiration. Funny, I thought that if God is Inspiration, "It" could've worked on the biblical authors minds with a clear picture as to what the content would be. Instead, we see questionable stories that 'riddle' it. Maybe God has purposely misinformed these people. Sounds treacherous to me. So now I know that Inspiration created the entire universe... and all points in it.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 05-16-2010 at 04:25 PM.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    G!d is all there is.

    G!d is in everything, therefor also in man and in the bible.

    It doesn't matter to me whether you have issues with what I believe or think, or whether you believe it holds water or not.

    I don't care if your a rasta or a pastafarian or an atheist, no skin off my nose.

    The bible is my scriptural reference, in my belief our biography is written and we can find insight from the lives of the characters of the bible as it is a metaphor for our life and our life is a metaphor for it.

    We've been David fighting Goliath, and in the belly of the fish, and stuck in the desert, the wilderness, the flood and on the cross. We've been chased across the red sea and have chased others and drowned in it. We've carried our crosses and driven the nails in the crosses of others.

    The biblical stories represent the battles that go on in our lives and in our consciousness on a daily basis.

    You had some scripture that bothered you that you had issues with, why don't you quit running and we'll explore it.
    Why are you upset about a simple question? Bigger question...why are you taking this personally?
    It doesn't matter to me whether you have issues with what I believe or think, or whether you believe it holds water or not.
    The only 'issue' I have, as you call it, is why do you tell Cnance one thing, and you give me a different story, same subject? I don't think this is a very big issue, but you apparently think its very big.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    iamwil

    Cnance, the book is called Revelation. I've got no idea why people refer to it as Revelations maybe you can help me out with that.

    I'll give you divinely inspired, but not to be literally read as anything.

    And you say it is the only book divinely inspried? You toss the rest of the gospels out with the bath water?

    Sure Jesus was G!d, born a man, but realized he was G!d. As are you, awaiting the realization of your Christhood, just as Jesus said.
    Maybe because there are so many prophesies in Revelations. I don't know.

    I did mean to start a debate. I have nothing to back up my belief. My questions for the gospels began when I read Bart Ehrman's books about the gospels. Then, I checked out his historical analysis and found his statements where correct. The gospels were written 35 to 70 years after the cruxificion. They were written by Greeks in Greek, not by disciples or Jews. Those facts are known from studies of early manuscripts. Most biblical scholars agree with Ehrman's historical analysis. The big question is why did it take so long for the gospels to be written. I am still looking for something written about Jesus within that 35 year gap.

    There is more to the story but suffice it to say I am convince Jesus was the Lord God, not his son.

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    Re: Oil's bitters water and prophesy

    iamwil

    Revelation, revelation, interpretting that prophecy is like trying to interpret a dream....all of it is happening in consciuosness, your earthly mind, not in the physical plane.

    Late night during a conference I was lucky enough to be sitting in a hotel lounge with Bart Ehrman and Jack Spong....I mostly sat quietly and listened, got into the conversation some, but it was incredible to listen to the two of them discuss their beliefs. Both had similar enlightenment, one went non-theistic but more spiritual, the other agnostic and tossed most of it out....but continues to chair the theology department.
    Yes, I can understand. Once you encounter historical data that conflicts with life-long beliefs, considerable doubt occurs.

    I've had dreams that tell me the gospels don't reflect what happened. So, I am not disillusioned with what Scholars have discovered about the gospels.

    Ehrman has responded to several of my emails. I think I told you this in a previous posting. Mostly, he has been polite and thanked me for reader his books. One time, he said he was interested in my idea about God's intervention in human affairs. Generally, however, I don't believe he accepts my thesis about God. He's a biblical historian and what I've said cannot be confirmed historically.

    Based on what I know, I believe I understand Revelation. As an example, the two witnesses in Rev. 11 are the two entities of God. If you do the math, it works. Briefly, "they will tramble on the holy city for 42 months." That is 31/2 years. "Two witnesses . . . will prophesy for 1,260 day clothed in sackcloth" Again, 1,260 days is 31/2 years, the time of Jesus's ministry. Then, "the beast that come up from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them." (the cruxificion). For three and one half days (period before resurrection) men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial . . . And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on."

    Rev. 12 is about what happened while the Lord God on earth as Jesus. At that time Satan attacked angels in heaven.
    Last edited by Cnance; 05-17-2010 at 08:11 PM.

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