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  1. #49
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Deafdude
    They have some free online reading in the links I just provided for you :D
    Yes but this is a forum for discussion so you make the points that you think are relevant. It's only fair that you should have some input instead of me just replying to a website that no one here created. You can copy and paste if you want

  2. #50
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by ren
    Could you please explain what you mean by this, now? I thought we did evolve from apes - at least if you think evolutionary theory is correct.
    Well evolutionary theory states that humans share an ancestor with apes (gorillas, chimps, etc)
    There are a lot of candidates for this common ancestor; Sahelanthropus Tchadensis, Pierolapithecus Catalaunicus, there are a lot of them.
    So what this means is that 10 million years ago, give or take a couple million, apes didn't exist and neither did humans. Instead we were all the same species, our ancestor. As it spread across the world, split off into groups, one of those groups eventually became apes, another became humans, and all the other species that fall into the same category.
    I'll find you a timeline and post it when I do, there are a lot of good ones on the net.

  3. #51
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Ah here's one I love! But it doesn't go back in time far enough, but I'm glad I found it 'cause I've been regretting not bookmarking this when I found it last time, it's my favourite timeline. I'll look for one that attempts to go back further still
    http://www.geocities.com/palaeoanthropology/evol.gif

  4. #52
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Ah! This is better than I had even hoped to find
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...uman_evolution

  5. #53
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Awesome timeline Subjunk. Only looked at the bit where humans appear, and wiki said this.

    At present estimate, humans have approximately 20,000–25,000 genes and share 98.5% of their DNA with their closest living evolutionary relative, the chimpanzees. [1]
    I didn't think that was true, so I clicked on the reference, and the abstract of the article they are referencing says

    The conclusion is the old saw that we share 98.5% of our DNA sequence with chimpanzee is probably in error.
    I'm not saying wiki is a bad source. Almost all their information is good, I get stuff from there all the time. I just thought this one was kinda funny. Just goes to show you gotta be careful. Hence the value of referencing primary sources rather than secondary. (And just so that I don't give the anti-evolutionists the wrong idea, the article was saying it was closer to 95%)

  6. #54
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    I'm not saying wiki is a bad source. Almost all their information is good, I get stuff from there all the time. I just thought this one was kinda funny. Just goes to show you gotta be careful. Hence the value of referencing primary sources rather than secondary. (And just so that I don't give the anti-evolutionists the wrong idea, the article was saying it was closer to 95%)
    Haha that is pretty funny, yeah whenever I actually use Wiki for important information, especially for uni stuff, I always check the sources thoroughly and of course get more. Did you edit the value to 95% on Wiki?

  7. #55
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Nope, I have no idea at all how to do that. I'll give it a go now.

  8. #56
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    Nope, I have no idea at all how to do that. I'll give it a go now.
    Yeah just the little "edit" link to the right, you can do it on any page on Wiki. It's how the articles get there in the first place :)
    Damn I just tried attaching my monitors to the wall haha I disassembled one's base and got half way through it but now 1) my arm's tired and 2) it's friggin' hard, they're not made to do it. I'll get here but I kindof regret starting to do it now haha

  9. #57
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    OK. Changed it. I find wiki is usually a great starting point. Generally provides a nice overview of things, and is also good in that in covers lots of things that aren't covered in an encyclopdia, TV shows, cultural things etc..

  10. #58
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    OK. I injured my leg last night and doctor says I can't walk, so I'll look at the articles on deafdude's site. First

    Could life have formed in the "Primordial Soup" billions of years ago?
    ...
    The amino acids produced would not work in any living things. The more recently suggested steps in "Chemical evolution" will not take place either. The idea is scientifically bankrupt, and the foundation of evolutionary thinking is destroyed.
    Quite simply, this does not relate to evolution. Theories regarding the origin of life are abiogenesis theories. The theory of evolution does not claim that life began due to purely physical processes. It may be true that most evolutionary biologists believe this to be the case, but technically it has nothing to do with evolution.

  11. #59
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    OK. Changed it. I find wiki is usually a great starting point. Generally provides a nice overview of things, and is also good in that in covers lots of things that aren't covered in an encyclopdia, TV shows, cultural things etc..
    For sure, I use it before Google, it's the default search engine in my browser. So convenient when you come across a page in it that has sources for everything, you check those sources and they're all good, 'cause then you have this one page to get information from instead of 20. And yeah I love it for music and TV shows, the trivia sections are awesome they fill me with useless but interesting info hehe

  12. #60
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    That site just spits out the usual ID rhetoric. Most of it has nothing at all to do with evolution, and everything to do with abiogenesis. It simply lists all the amazingly complex things about life, and says that since humans haven't been able to reproduce their origins in a laboratory it couldn't have happened naturally. Very little, if any of it, actually relates to the theory of evolution. Kudos to the author for actually using decent references though, most don't go that far.

    There are plenty of theories regarding abiogenesis. It will probably be impossible to test them scientifically, at least so far as whether or not they are actually responsible for life. But to say that since we don't understand exactly how life began there must be a god is non-sequitor. In fact its even worse than that. In order to explain a degree of complexity, we postulate a being with an even higher degree of complexity. What's the point in that?

  13. #61
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Haha this bit made me laugh out loud:

    If amino acids and other chemicals produced in nature did not break down but accumulated to form an organic broth, in time the chemicals that are produced more easily and those that break down more slowly would have predominated. Consequently, some of life's most necessary chemicals would have been rare or non-existent.
    Look familiar to anyone? Is it me or does it seem like he's actually using an evolutionary process (or at least natural selection process) in order to disprove that very thing?!

    Great point kazza by the way, the whole "In order to explain a degree of complexity, we postulate a being with an even higher degree of complexity", great.

  14. #62
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    And you're absolutely right that he's talking about abiogenesis, not evolution. I don't think the author knows the difference.

    Abiogenesis and evolution are imaginative speculations about what happened in prehistoric times.
    There's nothing prehistoric about evolution, it's happening right now and has been directly observed and recorded numerous times. Hellooo Deafdude, you coming back?

  15. #63
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    i would like to INTERJECT here the concept of the life considered as BODY and the LIFE considered as SOUL!?for science as we know it has OBSERVED the body DEVOID of that called consciousness/PERSONALITY and YET still PERSISTS with AID to BE ALIVE!?hehe!!this is definately an interesting CONFLICT of life definition dont you agree!?(those that have actually or intellectually considered/observed same,real or movies!?)hehe!!just askin......it's all about lines!!drawn or pointed to!?hehe!just askin...........about david blaine!?.......AND about the christ thing......healing....TOTALLY REAL AND NOW AND FOREVER!?it's strictly personal in NATURE and ON A need to know BASIS!?hehe!!just askin....
    Last edited by lexx; 08-17-2006 at 12:10 PM.

  16. #64
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    Re: Study shows apes can plan ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJunk
    Haha this bit made me laugh out loud:



    Look familiar to anyone? Is it me or does it seem like he's actually using an evolutionary process (or at least natural selection process) in order to disprove that very thing?!

    Great point kazza by the way, the whole "In order to explain a degree of complexity, we postulate a being with an even higher degree of complexity", great.
    i have to ask a SIMPLE question.....WHY is GREATER complexity GREAT!?i mean in everyday life affairs this a HINDRANCE or at best a PLAGUE to COMFORT of MIND/SELF!?now it must follow as a rule of thumb that macrocosm must relate to microcosm or we'd ALL go NUTS!?(that's what's happening NOW if ya ask me!?)KISS has to BE a universal RULE or SCIENCE will DIE!?OR BECOME THE MONSTER!?hehe!!..just askin.........
    Last edited by lexx; 08-17-2006 at 12:41 PM.

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