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  1. #1
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    Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Funnily enough, a bomb goes off, and those culpable are not gee whizz and golly gosh), Islamic 'extremists'.

    Anyway, for some years there has been a peace agreement between Sienn Fien, the political wing of the IRA, and the British Goverment.

    This has been mutually beneficial, as, aside from anything else, it put an end to bombs being planted in the British mainland.

    Of course, that agreement is still in place, to this day.

    However.

    I wonder how long it might remain in place, or if it might be destroyed by the actions of the so named REAL IRA, an Irish Republican group who have never recognised the peace deal?

    And here's another thought.

    The agreement is with the IRA and Sinn Fein, their political arm.

    And they might well distance themselves from the actions of the Real IRA. At least, on the surface. Privately, I believe that the SF and the IRA likely support the actions, but it is not in their public interests to say so.

    Story..

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100412...t-ca02f96.html



    Republican dissidents exploded a bomb near the headquarters of the MI5 intelligence services in Northern Ireland on Monday, minutes after police and justice powers were transferred from London.

    Hours later, the province voted in its first justice minister to embody those powers, the final piece of a devolution process that stretches back to the Good Friday Agreement between Republicans and Unionists in 1998.

    MI5 will continue to play a role in Northern Ireland and for those determined to stay out of the political process it represents the continued presence of British authorities.

    The attack, carried out with a hijacked taxi at 24 minutes after midnight, was close to its base in County Down.

    "The taxi driver got out (of the car) and shouted 'It's a bomb, it's a bomb!' and we were evacuating the area when it exploded," a police spokeswoman said. An elderly man was slightly injured.

    In a call to local media, the Real IRA, which last year killed two British soldiers in the deadliest act of violence in Northern Ireland in more than a decade, claimed responsibility.

    Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, which supports the Republican goal of a united Ireland but has renounced violence, said the peace process was "rock solid" and the dissidents' action "futile."

    "They are going to fail, and fail miserably, because we have taken up our responsibility as political leaders to build a better future for all of the people we represent," he said.

    The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), which shares power with Sinn Fein in a sometimes fragile alliance, also condemned the attack.

    "SIGNIFICANT STEP"

    "As I have said before, the transfer of powers will not be derailed by those who would return us to the darkest days of our past," the DUP's First Minister Peter Robinson said.

    "We are as determined as ever to work together to deliver a peaceful and stable society. Today represents another significant step on that journey."

    Both Sinn Fein and the DUP had agreed not to put forward candidates for the post of justice minister, which, as widely expected, went to David Ford, leader of the non-sectarian Alliance Party.

    He said he was determined to "face down that dissident threat" and would be "seeking to make the justice (system) work better overall."

    Analysts have repeatedly said republican dissidents are likely to remain active and police have said the risk of attack, chiefly on security forces, was severe.

    "This is one of the most significant attacks. It's highly political as well as military," said Jon Tonge, a politics professor at Liverpool University.

    "They (the dissidents) are showing nothing has changed because MI5 continues to hold the strings. They would regard last night as a major success."

    Belfast writer and historian Brian Feeney also said dissidents would remain active in the near-to-medium term, but that "99.9 percent of the population" backed the peace process.

    The Good Friday Agreement largely ended three decades of violence that killed 3,600 people from both the Catholic Republican community and the primarily Protestant Unionists.

    Dissident Republicans have stepped up attacks over recent months as politicians hammered out a tortuous agreement that provided for the transfer of policing and justice powers.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  2. #2
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Sorry, thats complete bollocks.

    edit - this bit is bollocks ;-)
    I wonder how long it might remain in place, or if it might be destroyed by the actions of the so named REAL IRA, an Irish Republican group who have never recognised the peace deal?

    And here's another thought.

    The agreement is with the IRA and Sinn Fein, their political arm.

    And they might well distance themselves from the actions of the Real IRA. At least, on the surface. Privately, I believe that the SF and the IRA likely support the actions, but it is not in their public interests to say so.
    The "real IRA" have been around for a long time. They are the ones who were never happy about moving with the will of the majority of those in the community who supported the Provisionals.

    Good grief, Sinn Fein are in power along with the Unionists. And they have just got what they wanted, the transfer of policing and security, which is WHY the tiny number of remaining idiots (who have amost no support or even weapons) attacked today.

    What are you talking about?

    Belfast writer and historian Brian Feeney also said dissidents would remain active in the near-to-medium term, but that "99.9 percent of the population" backed the peace process.

    The Good Friday Agreement largely ended three decades of violence that killed 3,600 people from both the Catholic Republican community and the primarily Protestant Unionists.

    Dissident Republicans have stepped up attacks over recent months as politicians hammered out a tortuous agreement that provided for the transfer of policing and justice powers.
    Last edited by thistle; 04-12-2010 at 01:04 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    The Real IRA(sic) have indeed been around, for some time, as well as other splinter groups, this is true.

    However, perhaps you missed the part in which it states that their attacks are on the increase.

    This suggests to me a shift toward them, from Irish Republicans who possibly feel disenfranchised after the agreement was put in place, and perhaps, even somewhat let down by the actual IRA.

    Are you saying that no supporters of the IRA have gravitated toward the Real IRA?

    Are you saying that no former IRA operatives are now with the REAL IRA?

    Are you denying that, in essence, the IRA and RIRA shared many of the same ideals?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  4. #4
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    The Real IRA(sic) have indeed been around, for some time, as well as other splinter groups, this is true.

    However, perhaps you missed the part in which it states that their attacks are on the increase.

    This suggests to me a shift toward them, from Irish Republicans who possibly feel disenfranchised after the agreement was put in place, and perhaps, even somewhat let down by the actual IRA.
    Nope. Tiny tiny number of people. The reason they are increasing their efforts is the political settlement is moving along very nicely, and they dont like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Are you saying that no supporters of the IRA have gravitated toward the Real IRA?

    Are you saying that no former IRA operatives are now with the REAL IRA?

    Are you denying that, in essence, the IRA and RIRA shared many of the same ideals?
    No, I'm not denying that the Real IRA contain past IRA members. But we are talking about the same hardcore tiny number who liked violence under the provisonals, and now under the Real IRA. The difference is the community support is not there now.

    There is not a swell of support for these people. But these particular hardcore people have never accepted a political settlement.

    Incidentally, the IRA weapons have been largely destroyed, these people dont have the sort of facilities, numbers, or support the IRA had.

    You are making too much of this (the sky is, again, falling ;-) ), reading disaster into something that, while serious, is the last gasp from a small number. There is no support for this, and thats incredibly important.

    More seriously, its just fantasy to suggest the IRA (who dont exist now) and SF support them. Steve, they are in government.
    Last edited by thistle; 04-12-2010 at 01:50 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    You are making too much of this .
    If one of the two dead soldiers killed by the IRA, sorry, I mean, RIRA, then would you be saying that?

    If they continue with their attacks, perhaps a bomb in a shopping centre, will you be saying that?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  6. #6
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    If one of the two dead soldiers killed by the IRA, sorry, I mean, RIRA, then would you be saying that?

    If they continue with their attacks, perhaps a bomb in a shopping centre, will you be saying that?
    You are misreading or misrepresenting what I'm saying. I said it was serious. And it has been serious since Omagh in 1998, when they killed 29 people.

    And they continued all through from then until today. But they do not now have support. They do not have the weapons, the people. The IRA is iterative, the hardcore move from one iteration to the next, the danger is when they have more than this core. The previous version of the IRA, whos political wing was/is SF, that iteration of the IRA had thousands of members. The Real IRA has about 150.

    If the Real IRA decided to renouce violence tomorrow, most of the 150 would start a new version, on and on. With no support.

    I guess my point is that you are reacting as if this is new. Nothing here is new in this story. They have attacked again. Terrible, yes. But it is not a return to the Troubles.

  7. #7
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    They do not have the weapons, the people. The IRA is iterative, the hardcore move from one iteration to the next, the danger is when they have more than this core. The previous version of the IRA, whos political wing was/is SF, that iteration of the IRA had thousands of members. The Real IRA has about 150..
    Tbh, I don't think either of us would be privy to the actual number of active members that RIRA or CIRA would have.

    I would doubt that such orgs have facebook groups - :-)

    But, all politics aside, the IRA were made up of men (and women), who were passionate in their endeavours, and murderous in their actions.

    Do you really believe that their psyche altered (and those of their support), when the agreement was made? Suddenly, these hardened IRA men, and their apologists, were magically transformed into diplomats and deep thinkers, lol?

    Of course not.

    Listen, all I am saying is this.

    If the volume of attacks by RIRA went on, and they progressed to mainland UK, then it would put our new PM in a tricky position.

    I will try to explain this another way.

    Let us say that there were a group of terrorists in the US called the Brothers.

    However, after much conflict, the US Gov and The Brothers, made a peace agreement, albeit it was fragile, at times.

    Meantime, a splinter group, who share much of the same idealogy as the original Brothers, they spring up, and start bombing the US.

    What do the US do?

    Do they turn a blind eye to the fact that many of the members and supporters of the splinter group are former members of the Brothers, and, therefore, the agreement is not being technically broken, but certainly it is a method of getting around it.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  8. #8
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Tbh, I don't think either of us would be privy to the actual number of active members that RIRA or CIRA would have.

    I would doubt that such orgs have facebook groups - :-)

    But, all politics aside, the IRA were made up of men (and women), who were passionate in their endeavours, and murderous in their actions.

    Do you really believe that their psyche altered (and those of their support), when the agreement was made? Suddenly, these hardened IRA men, and their apologists, were magically transformed into diplomats and deep thinkers, lol?

    Of course not.

    Listen, all I am saying is this.

    If the volume of attacks by RIRA went on, and they progressed to mainland UK, then it would put our new PM in a tricky position.

    I will try to explain this another way.

    Let us say that there were a group of terrorists in the US called the Brothers.

    However, after much conflict, the US Gov and The Brothers, made a peace agreement, albeit it was fragile, at times.

    Meantime, a splinter group, who share much of the same idealogy as the original Brothers, they spring up, and start bombing the US.

    What do the US do?

    Do they turn a blind eye to the fact that many of the members and supporters of the splinter group are former members of the Brothers, and, therefore, the agreement is not being technically broken, but certainly it is a method of getting around it.
    Sigh.

    You are trying really hard to imagine how the situation in NI could reverse, back to the way it was ten years ago.

    All sorts of things could happen. We could go back to the bad old days. But the Real IRA? They arent going to be the catalyst for that.

    A breakdown in the political settlement and current unprecedented peace (isolated incidents aside) would be the catalyst. That would cause the ordinary members of the two communities to feel disinfranchised again.

    These people are trying to cause division, its not going to work. The Troubles existed because the people were divided. The people now support Stormont having power, with both communities sharing power, cross border institutions, and devolved security and policing (the main remaining problem, and the precise reason for this attack).

  9. #9
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    The Troubles existed because the people were divided. .
    And you are suggesting that now, after all this time, and all this blood spilled, that they are what...one happy clappy family, who have seen the error of their ways?

    I don't think so.

    I believe the mutual hate is bubbling away, just fine, under the surface.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  10. #10
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    And you are suggesting that now, after all this time, and all this blood spilled, that they are what...one happy clappy family, who have seen the error of their ways?

    I don't think so.

    I believe the mutual hate is bubbling away, just fine, under the surface.
    Sounds like thats what you want to hear. Come on.

    The two communities are gradually integrating. Do many of them hate each other? Sure. Has anyone ever suggested they went from hating each other to best friends? No. Its a gradual process, the key will be the fact that the kids today have never lived through the troubles, and so dont hate their neighbours two streets away in the way their parents did.

    It is almost unrecognisable from ten years ago.

  11. #11
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    I really hope you are right.

    Here's a thought.

    The PIRA must know a lot about RIRA, who their members are, and much more, besides.

    Do you think RIRA members/contacts would be willing to engage with our security services to snuff out RIRA? After all, if as you say, there only have 'about 150 members', how hard can it be?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  12. #12
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    I really hope you are right.

    Here's a thought.

    The PIRA must know a lot about RIRA, who their members are, and much more, besides.

    Do you think RIRA members/contacts would be willing to engage with our security services to snuff out RIRA? After all, if as you say, there only have 'about 150 members', how hard can it be?
    Snuff out? No. Do SF know who the RIRA are? Absolutely.

    It is common knowledge amongst the police, security services, and politicians who these people are. They are very few, and known. The bbc NI correspondents confirm this routinely - everyone knows who this group are.

    You dont fight extremist views by murdering them. That WOULD be a good way to reignite the troubles.
    Last edited by thistle; 04-13-2010 at 02:22 AM.

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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Snuff out? No. Do SF know who the RIRA are? Absolutely.

    It is common knowledge amongst the police, security services, and politicians who these people are. They are very few, and known. The bbc NI correspondents confirm this routinely - everyone knows who this group are.

    You dont fight extremist views by murdering them. That WOULD be a good way to reignite the troubles.
    So, let's review;

    RIRA are small in number.

    RIRA are more active now than at any time before.

    SF know who they are. The IRA know who they are.

    The security services, police, and politicians know who they are.

    Right so far?

    And RIRA are classed, both here, and in the US, as a terrorist org.

    Therefore ... why not go round, arrest their members, and put them out of business?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    So, let's review;

    RIRA are small in number.

    RIRA are more active now than at any time before.

    SF know who they are. The IRA know who they are.

    The security services, police, and politicians know who they are.

    Right so far?

    And RIRA are classed, both here, and in the US, as a terrorist org.

    Therefore ... why not go round, arrest their members, and put them out of business?
    Well, they arent more active than at any time before. Omagh??

    They are the extreme tail end of the republican movement, they will always be there I suspect.

    Why cant they be arrested? Why couldnt the IRA council be arrested in the 90's? Because you need evidence.

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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Why cant they be arrested? Because you need evidence.
    Of them being members of RIRA? Is that what you mean, that we would need evidence that these 100-200 known members of RIRA are members of RIRA. Well, I guess this is circular, then. If we 'know' the number to be 100-200, and, if what you state is true, that the security services, SF, and all others know who they are, well, there you go then, they know who they are, they are members of an illegal and terrorist org, therefore, go get 'em.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  16. #16
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    Re: Bomb explodes outside MI5 HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Of them being members of RIRA? Is that what you mean, that we would need evidence that these 100-200 known members of RIRA are members of RIRA. Well, I guess this is circular, then. If we 'know' the number to be 100-200, and, if what you state is true, that the security services, SF, and all others know who they are, well, there you go then, they know who they are, they are members of an illegal and terrorist org, therefore, go get 'em.
    And by that logic, the leaders of the IRA and all the other terrorist organisations in NI over the last 30 years could have been arrested overnight. But you cant arrest people and send them to jail because people know they are criminals, without evidence.

    Especially when you have two communities where any off the cuff action by police or army will risk incitement - giving the impression that one community or the other is not being afforded the same legal due process.

    I'm sure they will catch these people. The people who attacked the police station in the last RIRA attack were eventually arrested I believe. Once there was evidence.

    Do you really want us to have our own Guantanamo situation, all for a few hardcore nutters? What price the rule of law? We tried it before, it was called internment.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

    You do not give up the legal due process or you lower your own moral authority.
    Last edited by thistle; 04-13-2010 at 05:09 AM.

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