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  1. #1
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    George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were inn

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7092435.ece



    George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld covered up that hundreds of innocent men were sent to the Guantánamo Bay prison camp because they feared that releasing them would harm the push for war in Iraq and the broader War on Terror, according to a new document obtained by The Times.

    The accusations were made by Lawrence Wilkerson, a top aide to Colin Powell, the former Republican Secretary of State, in a signed declaration to support a lawsuit filed by a Guantánamo detainee. It is the first time that such allegations have been made by a senior member of the Bush Administration.

    Colonel Wilkerson, who was General Powell’s chief of staff when he ran the State Department, was most critical of Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld. He claimed that the former Vice-President and Defence Secretary knew that the majority of the initial 742 detainees sent to Guantánamo in 2002 were innocent but believed that it was “politically impossible to release them”.

    General Powell, who left the Bush Administration in 2005, angry about the misinformation that he unwittingly gave the world when he made the case for the invasion of Iraq at the UN, is understood to have backed Colonel Wilkerson’s declaration.



    Colonel Wilkerson, a long-time critic of the Bush Administration’s approach to counter-terrorism and the war in Iraq, claimed that the majority of detainees — children as young as 12 and men as old as 93, he said — never saw a US soldier when they were captured. He said that many were turned over by Afghans and Pakistanis for up to $5,000. Little or no evidence was produced as to why they had been taken.

    He also claimed that one reason Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld did not want the innocent detainees released was because “the detention efforts would be revealed as the incredibly confused operation that they were”. This was “not acceptable to the Administration and would have been severely detrimental to the leadership at DoD [Mr Rumsfeld at the Defence Department]”.

    Referring to Mr Cheney, Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, asserted: “He had absolutely no concern that the vast majority of Guantánamo detainees were innocent ... If hundreds of innocent individuals had to suffer in order to detain a handful of hardcore terrorists, so be it.”

    He alleged that for Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld “innocent people languishing in Guantánamo for years was justified by the broader War on Terror and the small number of terrorists who were responsible for the September 11 attacks”.

    He added: “I discussed the issue of the Guantánamo detainees with Secretary Powell. I learnt that it was his view that it was not just Vice-President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld, but also President Bush who was involved in all of the Guantánamo decision making.”

    Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld, Colonel Wilkerson said, deemed the incarceration of innocent men acceptable if some genuine militants were captured, leading to a better intelligence picture of Iraq at a time when the Bush Administration was desperate to find a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, “thus justifying the Administration’s plans for war with that country”.

    He signed the declaration in support of Adel Hassan Hamad, a Sudanese man who was held at Guantánamo Bay from March 2003 until December 2007. Mr Hamad claims that he was tortured by US agents while in custody and yesterday filed a damages action against a list of American officials.

    Defenders of Guantánamo said that detainees began to be released as early as September 2002, nine months after the first prisoners were sent to the jail at the US naval base in Cuba. By the time Mr Bush left office more than 530 detainees had been freed.

    A spokesman for Mr Bush said of Colonel Wilkerson’s allegations: “We are not going to have any comment on that.” A former associate to Mr Rumsfeld said that Mr Wilkerson's assertions were completely untrue.

    The associate said the former Defence Secretary had worked harder than anyone to get detainees released and worked assiduously to keep the prison population as small as possible. Mr Cheney’s office did not respond.

    There are currently about 180 detainees left in the facility.
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  2. #2
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    tick, tick, tick . . . Obama has been in office for more than a year and hasn't released them. shouldn't he be impeached?

    they were captured and turned over as people who had recently come to afganistan to fight the USA-NATO invasion. they had opportunity to explain why there were in afganistan. everybody knew there was a war going on. nobody goes to a war zone as a tourist, eh?
    Last edited by mumbles; 04-10-2010 at 08:13 AM.

  3. #3
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    So, Mumbles, are you saying, right here on a public forum that someone like Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, is nothing more than a liar?
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    i didn't interview any of the prisoners to hear their explanations of why they were in a war zone in afganistan. you are saying that everybody in the chain of command followed bush's illegal orders and arrested and detained innocent people without cause. i can tell you, having been in the military, we were all quite willing to refuse illegal orders. commanders issuing obviously illegal orders were removed from command, quickly. if people went to afganistan to train to fight USA, they were fairly captured and held. the reason they were sent to guantanamo instead of being held by the afgan goverment, was because we removed the afgan government. poof, gone, doesn't exist.

    you are saying they are innocent because they were captured before they had the chance to kill anybody. sorry, that's not the way it works. the intent to kill is enough.

    the geneva convention is intended to protect those that are only following orders of their government. individual terrorist volunteers, like timothy mcveigh or the inmates of guantanamo qualify for death sentence. where's tim? why is he no longer with us? was that an illegal arrest and execution?

    if somebody invites you to go to a war zone, don't go. you could be captured or killed. also, if somebody is running a bulldozer near by, don't get under it. golly, there is no common sense at all today?

    the guy from sudan was in afganistan for what reason?

    this col wilkerson was an interogator? no. he has access to the interogation records? no. he knows nothing except people will pay him to pretend to be expert.
    Last edited by mumbles; 04-10-2010 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Do you believe it can ever be just to hold innocent people against their will, Mumbles?

    Are you saying that someone like Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, is nothing more than a liar?

    Would he not be better placed to speak about this, with accuracy, than you?

    And if is not true, then why don't those implicated take action?
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  6. #6
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    you watch too many movies, and you haven't been there. the military is really a big paperwork machine. only a few ever fire a shot, all the rest of them have to do the paperwork. there is nobody arrested who was not given an opportunity to explain. if they lied, too bad for them.

    oh, i was just on my way to visit my aunt in topeka, kansas when i got arrested in afgan desert while carrying a rocket launcher?

    everybody had a chance to tell their story over and over and its all documented. these documents are usually kept secret so future detainees can't plan good lies to tell the interrogators. any interrogator that had evidence the detainee was innocent had the responsibilty to cause the release of that person. i know. i was arrested by military police and as soon as an officer saw me, he questioned why i was there, then when i satisfied him with my answer, i was immediately released with apology. an officer's carreer is over is they make even one mistake like that. this was much better than i was treated by idiot airport security that wanted to strip search me for no reason.

    where are Omaba's prisoners? he hasn't brought any to the states. is nato just executing prisoner's rather than do the paperwork? if they are held in afgan jail now, i would expect that to be worse than guantanamo.
    Last edited by mumbles; 04-10-2010 at 05:45 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Dumbles,

    you are saying they are innocent because they were captured before they had the chance to kill anybody. sorry, that's not the way it works. the intent to kill is enough.
    Sooooooo....you know what the "intent" of someone is before they have acted or spoken about it?

    Really??? So, do all those on the Right share in your amazing powers for ESP?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    In afganistan we payed locals to turn in terrorists. So you are piised at your neighbor or his poppy field is ready for harvest and you want to steal it....whateverr...you call GI joe and tell them you heard he was a terrorist...you get $5k ... your nieghbor or brother in law or whatever is out of your hair....walah, what's not to like.

    It happenned. and happenned and happennned...

    Why because we wanted to make news catching lots of terrorists...whilst wagging the dog.
    Not sure if you are being 'dry' there, or for real.

    If it is the latter, then I agree with the sentiment.

    This Alex Jones making these allegations, that innocent people were knowingly held there, this is a man whose word, imo, carries some weight.

    Now, it was my understanding that Americans were meant to stand for truth and justice, therefore, they should find the very thought of anyone being incarcerated against their will, and knowingly innocent of any crimes, as being an abhorent notion, no?
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  9. #9
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Do you believe it can ever be just to hold innocent people against their will, Mumbles?

    Are you saying that someone like Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, is nothing more than a liar?

    Would he not be better placed to speak about this, with accuracy, than you?

    And if is not true, then why don't those implicated take action?

    A better question would be: are you are saying that all those who disagree with Wilkerson ( maybe a combined 1000 years of active duty) are nothing more than liars?


    Bush knew about all this stuff the same way he knew there were no WMDs--even though the entire world thought there were. He parachuted in under cover of darkness and proceeded to comb the entirety of Iraq before satisfying himself that they did not exist.

    This was after personally organizing and executing the attacks on 9/11. Few people know that he was actually the pilot of the second plane.


    Boy, was THAT guy underestimated!



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    or would wish unknown to the whole world."
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Thing is Pwrone, as much as you would care to derail the point, this is not some conspiracy story, out of the mouth of Alex Jones, as mentioned, but from the mouth of what most would consider a good source.

    31 yrs in the military.

    Does that count for nothing?
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  11. #11
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Thing is Pwrone, as much as you would care to derail the point, this is not some conspiracy story, out of the mouth of Alex Jones, as mentioned, but from the mouth of what most would consider a good source.

    31 yrs in the military.

    Does that count for nothing?

    It counts as exactly one voice against those with similar credentials who disagree with his assessment.

    Right?



    .;
    There is not a truth existing which I fear
    or would wish unknown to the whole world."
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone View Post
    It counts as exactly one voice against those with similar credentials who disagree with his assessment.

    Right?



    .;
    Do Bush and Cheney have similar credentials in the military, then?
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
    Do Bush and Cheney have similar credentials in the military, then?

    ???


    What could that have to do with anything?

    I wouldn't ask the accused their opinion of the allegations.


    Also, yeah, the President and the Vice-President ARE pretty strong 'credentials'.





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    There is not a truth existing which I fear
    or would wish unknown to the whole world."
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    [QUOTE=pwrone;908666I wouldn't ask the accused their opinion of the allegations. .[/QUOTE]

    You wouldn't ask them..???

    Why ever not..?
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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    When the Bush Administration was given the job of fighting terrorists it was a difficult job to determine who was a terrorist and who was not. I do not think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld purposely held innocents at Guantanamo, there was no way to determine who was innocent and who was guilty and a threat until investigating each and every person. Gathering the evidence to prove innocence or guilt of these people detained was extremely complex. A difficult task. You possibly could have assumed someone was innocent but until you knew that person was not a danger to society they kept them in prison.

    I realize we have discussed this all be fore but just to refresh our memories here are some details about detainees kept at Guantanamo and how many prisoners there were and when they were released from prison.

    Detainees

    Main article: List of Guantánamo Bay detainees

    A Camp Delta is a recreation and exercise area in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The detention block is shown with sunshades drawn on December 3, 2002


    From the 1970s onwards, the Guantánamo Bay Naval Base was used to house Cuban and Haitian refugees intercepted on the high seas. In the 1990s, it held refugees who fled Haiti in Camp Bulkeley until United States District Court Judge Sterling Johnson Jr. declared the camp unconstitutional on June 8, 1993, and the last Haitian migrants departed in late 1995. In June 2005, the United States Department of Defense announced that a unit of defense contractor Halliburton would build a new $1 billion USD detention facility and security perimeter around the base.
    Since October 7, 2001, when the current war in Afghanistan began, 775 detainees have been brought to Guantánamo. Of these, approximately 420 have been released without charge. In January 2009, approximately 245 detainees remained.[15] This number further decreased to 215 by November 2009.[12]
    Three have been convicted of various charges:Of those still incarcerated, U.S. officials said they intend to eventually put 60 to 80 on trial and free the rest.

    The cell in which David Hicks, an Australian Guantánamo Bay prisoner, was detained. Inset is the prisoners' reading room


    On September 22, 2004, ten prisoners were brought from Afghanistan.
    In July 2005, 242 detainees were moved out of Guantánamo, including 173 that were released without charge, and 69 transferred to the governments of other countries, according to the U.S. Department of Defense.[19]
    By November 2005, 358 of the then-505 detainees held at Guantánamo Bay had Administrative Review Board hearings.[20] Of these, 3% were granted and were awaiting release, 20% were to be transferred, 37% were to be further detained at Guantánamo, and no decision had been made in 40% of the cases.
    The Center for Constitutional Rights has prepared a biography of some of the prisoners currently being held in Guantánamo Prison.[21]
    On February 11, 2008, the US Department of Defense charged Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi, Ali Abd al-Aziz Ali and Walid Bin Attash for the September 11 attacks under the military commission system, as established under the Military Commissions Act of 2006.[22]
    On February 5, 2009, charges against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri were dropped without prejudice following an order signed by US President Barack Obama to suspend trials for 120 days.[23] Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri was accused of renting a small boat connected with the USS Cole bombing. He is one of the detainees held at Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp known to have been interrogated with water boarding[


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp


    Last edited by Tulip; 04-10-2010 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulip View Post
    I do not think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld purposely held innocents at Guantanamo
    Is that a fact based belief, or a faith based one?
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