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  1. #65
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019...Fencoding=UTF8

    Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code : A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine (Paperback)

    From Booklist
    *Starred Review* There are have been several books debunking Dan Brown's enormously popular Da Vinci Code; often the rebuttals have been coated with hostility. Ehrman, a biblical historian, does it better. Using the novel as a jumping-off point, he offers a highly readable introduction to the historical Jesus as well as a brief primer on biblical exegesis. Not an easy task to provide such complex material for a pop-fiction audience, but Ehrman succeeds brilliantly. He immediately gives Brown's book its due; it's a page-turner, and there is no need to refute that. But the book is filled with many historical inaccuracies, everything from claiming the Dead Sea Scrolls were Christian documents to the idea that all the Jewish men of the era were married. (The assumed writers of the scrolls were celibate.) Ehrman uses each inaccuracy as an opportunity to explain how biblical scholarship works. The topics he touches on include how historians assess documentation, the Gnostic gospels in Christian thought, the role of Constantine in the formation of a Christian empire, and the role of women in the early church. Everyone loves conspiracies and secrets, which makes it a bit melancholy to watch Ehrman remove the veil from the Jesus story. Even the most devoted Da Vinci Code fan, however, will be forced to agree that Ehrman succeeds at separating historical fact from literary fiction. Ilene Cooper

  2. #66
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019...Fencoding=UTF8

    Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code : A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine (Paperback)

    From Booklist
    *Starred Review* There are have been several books debunking Dan Brown's enormously popular Da Vinci Code; often the rebuttals have been coated with hostility. Ehrman, a biblical historian, does it better. Using the novel as a jumping-off point, he offers a highly readable introduction to the historical Jesus as well as a brief primer on biblical exegesis. Not an easy task to provide such complex material for a pop-fiction audience, but Ehrman succeeds brilliantly. He immediately gives Brown's book its due; it's a page-turner, and there is no need to refute that. But the book is filled with many historical inaccuracies, everything from claiming the Dead Sea Scrolls were Christian documents to the idea that all the Jewish men of the era were married. (The assumed writers of the scrolls were celibate.) Ehrman uses each inaccuracy as an opportunity to explain how biblical scholarship works. The topics he touches on include how historians assess documentation, the Gnostic gospels in Christian thought, the role of Constantine in the formation of a Christian empire, and the role of women in the early church. Everyone loves conspiracies and secrets, which makes it a bit melancholy to watch Ehrman remove the veil from the Jesus story. Even the most devoted Da Vinci Code fan, however, will be forced to agree that Ehrman succeeds at separating historical fact from literary fiction. Ilene Cooper
    Great I'll have to buy it, it sounds really interesting.
    I'll say this much though, it's his word against Dan's really. No doubt the theories that Ehrman presents are more realistic and maybe even supported by a lot of historians, but there's no way of really knowing who is right about certain things.

    I'm not a huge supporter of sensationalism, but every now and then the truth is actually sensational. Insert the "world being round" analogy here :p

  3. #67
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJunk
    Great I'll have to buy it, it sounds really interesting.
    I'll say this much though, it's his word against Dan's really. No doubt the theories that Ehrman presents are more realistic and maybe even supported by a lot of historians, but there's no way of really knowing who is right about certain things.

    I'm not a huge supporter of sensationalism, but every now and then the truth is actually sensational. Insert the "world being round" analogy here :p

    Ehrman doesn't present theories, he presents facts. They are documented. He gives us a scholarly, professional, open-minded presentation.

    However, it may surprise you that he admits to the possibility that Jesus was married and maybe even to Mary Magdalene but says that there is no way to prove it one way or the other. His personal "opinion" is that they most likely weren't married but I think he would be okay with the idea that they were if some evidence turned up.

    Read the book first -- talk later.

    As for my opinion.... I agree with the above.... I would be okay with it if it turned out that Jesus and Mary M. were an item. I would even like to think that Jesus had a wife. And if he did, I would like to think that she was his equal in wisdom and compassion. Maybe even his twin soul if there is such a thing. But who really knows? Not, Dan Brown.

  4. #68
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by Button
    I am christian. I don't go to church very often and when I do I have felt out of place for years. Some would say that is because my life has went astray. I don't know if that is true - I'm married, have a child and although I don't go to church, I try to live decent even though I do drink some and have a little fun, but I pray every night and do speak of my faith when prudent, stay faithful to my husband, etc. Some would say I'm a "fallen christian" I would say kiss my ass but one of the worst things I have found about people that are adament about their religion are the hypocrits (we need a spell check on this thing, have I missed it?). I have a family member that is a drug adict but she goes to church every week, sings in the choir, teaches Sunday school and plays miss innocent, while during the week she is doing her drugs and the worst part is some of the things she has done for her drugs. I feel like she is a hypocrit, others would say that at least she is in church. I'm not knocking her for her problems (we've all got problems), but for someone so involved in the church... it seems phony to me.

    I've also found that some (not all) of the people who attend church every Sunday and all the other church activites to be hypocritical in other ways. They seem to be very judgmental of other people and while they live a "clean life," they seem to be more negative than others and christians are not supposed to be like that.

    When you add that to that fact that in the past, religion was often associated with violence and war, and that some of the people who preach it all the time and show up at your door constantly - I think that is why some people have a negative view of Christains or religion in general. Some feel like it has been forced on them (and sometimes it has), while other times when the approach was more friendly, their own guilt makes them feel like the approaching Christian was a fanatic.

    In short, I think religious people trying to force their views on people has made them weary, because when you think about it, all of the religions cannot be right and the person who has not commited yet knows that and is speculative. If you're already speculative and see some of the fanatics (most aren't) raising cain over something insignificant, it would cause you to stay away from all of it.
    I must agree with some of your points, especially about the many Christians being judgmental of others. I have seen so many people turned off by that when it is not even a Christians job to Judge others.
    At least according to their misdeeds. I have always felt that for anyone to be judged fairly, we must not only see what they do wrong, but what they do right. If we were to judge anyone and condem them over their misdeeds, we would be condeming ourselves as well, because even Christians sin.
    The Bible says that a man will be judged in the same manner in which he judges. So people should be more carefull about the subject.

    It sounds to me like you are doing better than a lot of Christians.
    You at least have a line of communication with the Father.
    I dont go to Church every sunday either. I work seven days a week, and that leaves little time for church. But I try to spend time praying and trying to know God a little better as much as I can. I know I will never know it all, but I want to know as much as I can. The most important thing is that we have a heart to do what is right. Since we are Human and always screwing things up, God tends to look at the heart of the individual to see the true intentions.
    And I believe that is what he judges by.
    Last edited by gools68; 05-26-2006 at 01:20 PM.

  5. #69
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by StormyRay
    Ehrman doesn't present theories, he presents facts. They are documented. He gives us a scholarly, professional, open-minded presentation.
    History rarely deals with facts, that's a fact :)
    It's all theories. Some hold more weight than others but in the end it's evidence mixed with logic and educated analysis to create theories.
    I'm well aware of historical analysis, I've studied and am currently studying history and anthropology, respectively.

  6. #70
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    there's only "now" and all else is relative!?"now" defined as to awake to the possibiltys(other first! considerations) of the moment as opposed to the plans of the future me/mine casting a shadow on the now in a doubleminded accepteance called by men SECURITY!?(thru superiority!?)so happiness becomes a goal/demand, not a realization for all!?and this all ingrained by the demands of economic and actual survival reqirements imposed according to the crowd of it's followers!?(the ignorant /misled/fallen!?)NOT ME!?and what's the proper key to it all/solution!?an understanding of the whole picture!?free of persuasion by fear!?robinhood can become more subtle dont cha think!?everything else has!?hehe!!just askin!?...........anyway..that's my head and i'm still stuck with it!?hehe!!hotel california dreamin on my mind!?sweet mama take me home!?to the place........where i BELONG!!hehe!!
    Last edited by lexx; 05-27-2006 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #71
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by jpaulgor
    I don't understand why some people feel the need to "debunk" Davinci's Code. The book is FICTION. You don't debunk something that is already not true to begin with. That is like someone trying to debunk The Lord of the Rings...to make sure everyone realizes that Bilbo Baggins did not exist, and that Aragorn never hooked up with Arwen.
    so why do millions of novels sell very well!?it is fiction to you because you have not been exposed to the quantum soup as it is so admiralty/admirably exclaimed by those who are sideshow speculators(called science).and truth is what ya know fer sure!?thank god you dont know anything else fer sure before your READY!?that's what faith means by the way!?open pandoras box before you can handle it and there is no explanation that will suffice!?does this make sense to your own observations of mankind!?did you ever look at it that way!?it's because you cant!?and this is a self protective mechanism built into the scheme of things!?so doubt is a safety valve of a construction based on the choice or free will idea!?it can be defeated!?and cursed are those that do it unwittingly!?for CREATION is an all powerful force and denial is not accepted on THAT level of truth!?so to say it another way.......whatever you think is real IF ever exposed to the actual force of creation in RAW mode you will experience it as YOU!?digital is SO like the truth!?it's all relative ya know!?you have been placed here with protection from judgement!?but no clue as to why!?hehe!!THAT"S FAIR or not!?WHO CAN SAY!?who has escaped the game!?the game is AFOOT watson!!it's all legal......trust me!?hehe!!and it's as simple as testin ya buddy for honesty or loyalty!?and after all,relativity must pass the test of scale!?WHO'S SCALE IS IT!?who authored the whole thing!?I DONT know but i'm gettin close!?but on another note.......if all is a story!?and you have a story to tell......and you would include whomever you please as you see it proper!?then you are saying you know your own life and soul as it is apparent to you in your own mind!?and those of your choosing as co-experiencers!?so are not all storys actually possibilitys of the experience of the mind of those that actually experience them!?not that anyone else could consider anyone elses experiences as REAL!?just askin!?but i guess you would fall back on the common experience of all men which is common if not meddled with!?but how can you say it is not meddled with if you consider all the economically driven IMPROVEMENTS so sought after by those who wish to succeed in successing at all costs!?(success being defined by material gains thru human performance!?)hehe!!like i said.......it's all personal to yourself and your own experiences.if you choose to include any others it is due to common understanding/indoctrination and PUBLIC education!?there's a top and a bottom in this world of show and glad is he that knows his place or at least desires for same!?no fakers or slackers allowed!?just askin.......hehe!!

  8. #72
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    so why do millions of novels sell very well!?it is fiction to you because you have not been exposed to the quantum soup as it is so admiralty/admirably exclaimed by those who are sideshow speculators(called science).and truth is what ya know fer sure!?thank god you dont know anything else fer sure before your READY!?that's what faith means by the way!?open pandoras box before you can handle it and there is no explanation that will suffice!?does this make sense to your own observations of mankind!?did you ever look at it that way!?it's because you cant!?and this is a self protective mechanism built into the scheme of things!?so doubt is a safety valve of a construction based on the choice or free will idea!?it can be defeated!?and cursed are those that do it unwittingly!?for CREATION is an all powerful force and denial is not accepted on THAT level of truth!?so to say it another way.......whatever you think is real IF ever exposed to the actual force of creation in RAW mode you will experience it as YOU!?digital is SO like the truth!?it's all relative ya know!?you have been placed here with protection from judgement!?but no clue as to why!?hehe!!THAT"S FAIR or not!?WHO CAN SAY!?who has escaped the game!?the game is AFOOT watson!!it's all legal......trust me!?hehe!!and it's as simple as testin ya buddy for honesty or loyalty!?and after all,relativity must pass the test of scale!?WHO'S SCALE IS IT!?who authored the whole thing!?I DONT know but i'm gettin close!?but on another note.......if all is a story!?and you have a story to tell......and you would include whomever you please as you see it proper!?then you are saying you know your own life and soul as it is apparent to you in your own mind!?and those of your choosing as co-experiencers!?so are not all storys actually possibilitys of the experience of the mind of those that actually experience them!?not that anyone else could consider anyone elses experiences as REAL!?just askin!?but i guess you would fall back on the common experience of all men which is common if not meddled with!?but how can you say it is not meddled with if you consider all the economically driven IMPROVEMENTS so sought after by those who wish to succeed in successing at all costs!?(success being defined by material gains thru human performance!?)hehe!!like i said.......it's all personal to yourself and your own experiences.if you choose to include any others it is due to common understanding/indoctrination and PUBLIC education!?there's a top and a bottom in this world of show and glad is he that knows his place or at least desires for same!?no fakers or slackers allowed!?just askin.......hehe!!
    Hey, it is a fiction book. LET IT GO.... if you want to REGULATE THIS. Then you should regulate every bible out there. Because the bible is a fiction book as well. Some true events but told with many exaggerations and false information, just like the Da Vinci Code. How do we know? Because current studies show talking snakes DO NOT EXIST(an example). So between these two books, THEY BOTH ARE FICTION.
    Last edited by TheForgottenMan; 05-27-2006 at 09:58 PM.

  9. #73
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    I finished the book a couple of days ago. Excellent book. I still see no reason for the "church" to get all up in arms, nor for christians to, unless of course the "church" and "christians" believe deep down that Jesus was just a man who married Mary Magdelan and fathered children and that the entire story of his divinity and holiness was simply made up to bring people "in line" with Roman Catholic (the church) beliefs.

    If you have true faith, it shouldn't bother you at all if anyone else doesn't hold the same faith. Faith is a personal thing, it's between you and whomever or whatever you hold faith in. It's not universal in any way other than humans can all have faith in whatever they choose to have faith in and live and practice that faith in their lives daily.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 05-29-2006 at 12:28 AM.

  10. #74
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    I finished the book a couple of days ago. Excellent book. I still see no reason for the "church" to get all up in arms, nor for christians to, unless of course the "church" and "christians" believe deep down that Jesus was just a man who married Mary Magdelan and fathered children and that the entire story of his divinity and holiness was simply made up to bring people "in line" with Roman Catholic (the church) beliefs.

    If you have true faith, it shouldn/t bother you at all if anyone else doesn't hold the same faith. Faith is a personal thing, it's between you and whomever or whatever you hold faith in. It's not universal in any way other than humans can all have faith in whatever they choose to have faith in and live and practice that faith in their lives daily.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

    EXACTLY, that is what I said.

  11. #75
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Viewed the movie (with my children) and it was very good! Thought provoking, interesting take on some points of history, but hardly a serious study. Truly, that is it's merit - to make people think! I do believe it will cause all sorts of people to do a little research (say, read a book - maybe even, The Book) to understand the movie. The view of the glass pyramid at the Louvre alone is worth the price of admission. It is a murder mystery - and a very good one. You have to listen to the dialogue or you're lost. I've read about one third of the book and the movie seems to be very close. All in all, we enjoyed it - and we had a great debate after. There is no slam on catholics or any other religious group - perhaps christianity as a whole. Let's all remember, this is a work of fiction - but very well done! I recommend that you wait for it's video release - you will want to rewind.

  12. #76

    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    I finished the book a couple of days ago. Excellent book. I still see no reason for the "church" to get all up in arms, nor for christians to, unless of course the "church" and "christians" believe deep down that Jesus was just a man who married Mary Magdelan and fathered children and that the entire story of his divinity and holiness was simply made up to bring people "in line" with Roman Catholic (the church) beliefs.
    hi everyone, i happened to come acrossed this thread while looking at the main forum, so i might not be back around these parts... i just wanted to comment on the above statement, as i happen to agree.

    just some background before i make my statement... i am a devout Christian who has attended classes at seminary and plan on returning to finish my Master's degree in Divinity later this year...

    i must say that, while i personally believe that "some" of the info that is portrayed in the book/film (yes, i've read it and seen it) can be potentially soul-destroying....i think people (meaning the people that are so against it) really need to put this into context.

    it is a frigging movie. nothing more, nothing less. why boycott anything? that kind of behavior is what gives things "power"...IMHO.

    like sojustask mentioned earlier...i think that people that have never read the Bible or have studied Jesus or His ministry have got to think that there is something to this thing since there are so many people against it. i honestly believe that the book never would have sold as many copies as it did in the first place if it werent for the church's reaction to it. i have found that the church is usually its own worst enemy in such matters.

    when i see these people standing outside theaters with signs boycotting the movie, i cant help but think these people look like damn fools. it reminds me of the idiots that stand around with signs that say things like: "God Hates ***s" and then have the audacity to call themselves Christians....

    on the news the other night, i saw these old ladies standing outside of a theater multiplex in my area holding signs that stated something to the effect of "The Church is Jesus' Bride"...it made me wonder if Jesus would have ever spent His time holding a sign...something tells me that He wouldnt have... He had much better, more important things to do... and i think that we should too.

    it made me think about these ladies using this time that they wasted boycotting a fiction thriller (that i happened to enjoy i might add) to maybe volunteer at a soup-kitchen or something. instead of wasting their time holding a sign that only invokes jeers and snickering instead of provoking thought... why not utilize that time and resources into making the world a better place, helping the homeless or something...

    just my 2 cents! :)

  13. #77
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    If you have true faith, it shouldn't bother you at all if anyone else doesn't hold the same faith. Faith is a personal thing, it's between you and whomever or whatever you hold faith in. It's not universal in any way other than humans can all have faith in whatever they choose to have faith in and live and practice that faith in their lives daily.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    So this faith.... is it the same as for moslem suicide bombers.........or fundies who play power games in washington...........or wealthy jesus followers who will do anything for a buck..........child labour.........sweatshops........ export jobs to poorer economies.....or dubya.
    Sorry but this is self serving twaddle LOL.
    Cause if you have a faith then you must allow others to have a faith (if they want) But you dont get to decide what that faith is...so it could be hostile to your faith...... whaddya do then? A recipe for disaster methinks...just saying.... maybe the days of faith for all are over.....but the faithfools dont want to admit it.

  14. #78
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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by pancho
    So this faith.... is it the same as for moslem suicide bombers.........or fundies who play power games in washington...........or wealthy jesus followers who will do anything for a buck..........child labour.........sweatshops........ export jobs to poorer economies.....or dubya.
    Sorry but this is self serving twaddle LOL.
    Cause if you have a faith then you must allow others to have a faith (if they want) But you dont get to decide what that faith is...so it could be hostile to your faith...... whaddya do then? A recipe for disaster methinks...just saying.... maybe the days of faith for all are over.....but the faithfools dont want to admit it.
    Pancho,

    I think I see your point but you can feel free to correct me if I missed it.

    Faith is faith. Whether it's faith in Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, the Zodiac, witchcraft or the the almighty dollar. Each has it's own rewards, both short term and in the long term.

    Whether you agree with someone else's beliefs or not is irrelevant to faith. People will have faith in whatever they choose to have faith in irregardless of whether or not others agree or disagree with them. And when you attack a groups faith/beliefs, you end up in wars. If we would stop trying to force people to believe what we believe the planet would be a more peaceful place to inhabit.

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    I said this before somewhere here but it occured to me that although god claims evreything is "his"(power of creation/love default call) i actually wonder if the idea of "this" creation didn't come about thru a collaboration of other inputs or outputs/putouts if ya will!?do i think the christ had sex!?no.........if you watch BARBARELLA you will see why!?god is sex!?not the act but the climax!?got a better discription for....RAPTURE!?i'm listening,....inbetween of course!?..........TV SHOWS!?hehe!!

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    Re: Christian Foes of 'Da Vinci Code' Debate How to Fight It

    Quote Originally Posted by boone
    Widespread Protests Precede 'Da Vinci Code' Premiere

    Tuesday, May 16, 2006
    Associated Press

    CANNES, France — Anger over "The Da Vinci Code," premiering Wednesday at the Cannes Film Festival, escalated Tuesday as Christian groups from South Korea, Thailand, Greece and India planned boycotts, a hunger strike and attempts to block or shorten screenings.

    The plot of the movie, adapted by Ron Howard from Dan Brown's worldwide best seller, makes the case that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children with her.

    In India, the government Tuesday put a temporary hold on the movie's release because of complaints.

    In South Korea, which has 13 million Protestants and 4.6 million Roman Catholics, a court ruled Tuesday that a Christian group's request for an injunction to block screenings lacked merit.

    "As it is clear that the novel and movie are all fiction ... there is no probability that the movie can make viewers mistakenly believe the contents of the movie are facts," chief judge Song Jin-hyun said in his ruling.

    The Christian Council of Korea, an umbrella group of 63 South Korean Protestant denominations, said it respected the ruling but would lead a boycott of the movie, which it said defiles the sanctity of Jesus Christ and distorts facts.

    In Thailand, Christian groups demanded that government censors cut the film's final 15 minutes, fix subtitles that are supposedly disrespectful to Jesus and screen messages before and after the movie saying the content is fictional.

    "If they are going to screen this, we asked that they cut out the conclusion of the movie that Jesus still has heirs alive today," said spokesman Manoch Jangmook, ofld be a "test of faith" for many people in the predominantly Roman Catholic Philippines.

    "Those groups, like the conservatives who want it banned, maybe they can tell their friends, discourage their friends from watching it," she said. "But it has to be shown. Otherwise we will be the only country that will not show this film. Thirty-six countries have already reviewed this film and they have not banned it. So are we just out of the Stone Age?"

    The National Council of Churches in Singapore, which also had requested a ban, planned lectures to refute aspects of the film and the book on which it is based. The censorship board gave the movie an NC16 rating, barring viewers under 16, arguing that "only a mature audience will be able to discern and differentiate between fact and fiction."
    remember........since god made it all.....there's no such thing as a complete lie!?now if evangelism was your first LOVE,then this would be a great way to meet the undecided!?so why complain!?is god a complainer!?youd thunk so if ya read his? book!?hehe!!just askin.........

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