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  1. #1
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    What does religion give you that you can't give to

    This is a question to everyone presently in some form of religion, or a past member. Why can you not give to yourself that which you REALLY NEED spiritually without the help of some organization? 'Just fishin' for some good answers;some food for thought and reflection! Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    What does religion give you that you can't give to yourself? That is the full question.

  3. #3
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    What does religion give you that you can't give to yourself?
    Complications.


    .

  4. #4
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Religion is merely a collective assumption. people get together and devise an authority of some sort that supposedly protects them from encroachment.

    As time progressed, science was found to serve that same purpose even better.

    However, from the biblical perspective, the focus is not on religion but on law. What is the individual's placwe within anjy collective society, religious or secular.

    Does any collective power, religious or secular, have the right and the power to condemn any individual?

    Not according to biblical law, which, even when you look at its strange prohibitions, protects the individual by requiring at least two witnesses who are unbiased, and the presumption of innocence(Isaiah 54:17) as well as the right to face your accuser as an equal(Isaiah 50:8).

    In fact, all the rights of "due process" declared by our Bill of Rights can be found in that ancient text.

    The bible is not about collective religion, even in the New testament, but about the people's right to know and understand law, and to protect themselves from the power of the collective.

    Trying to manufacture a religion from a document designed to protect individuals under law results in exactly the kind of confusion of religions we see today.

    Religion does nothing at all for you, but knowing law, and our individual rights under law, which fall under "due process", these are most important, as jesus himself pointed out in condemning the lawyers of his day.

    Luke 11:52: "Woe unto you, lawyers. Ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered".

    The law was to be open to the understanding and application by all. "Due process" as understood in our constitution is defined by Justice Joseph Story as "lawful judgement of peers", and there can be no lawful judgement if peers are not in possession of full understanding of the law.

    This right goes under the more recognized term "jury nullification", the right of any jury to declare any law in any case as not applying to that case, which the judge is not empowered to do.

    Since Constantine nationalized christianity and made it a collective power to rule over others, it has been defiled and become a curse, the very opposite of what it was intended to be.
    Last edited by doojie; 01-25-2010 at 07:23 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Thank you,Doojie-I just realized while reading your response that I have never looked at the bible as a law giving text-EVER! I have always looked at the bible as a premise for some religion-building, self-proclaimed prophet ( or "profit" ) to crank up the money making machine, and to institute His or Her delusions of grandeur to recruit followers with a belief system that they would choose for them. How stained and tarnished we as a collective civilization have made this book! I will only look at it as a law giving book from now on.....I think that will work better for me than it has in the past! I don't want this thread to be a put-down for people who chose a religion, or who were born into one and now accept it as their own truth. I would ask each one to look deep into their hearts and challenge their beliefs about religion and see if they could do better with their own self-reliance and ideas! Yes,love God, if you choose to believe in one, but DO IT CONSCIOUSLY!

  6. #6
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Thank you,Doojie-I just realized while reading your response that I have never looked at the bible as a law giving text-EVER! I have always looked at the bible as a premise for some religion-building, self-proclaimed prophet ( or "profit" ) to crank up the money making machine, and to institute His or Her delusions of grandeur to recruit followers with a belief system that they would choose for them. How stained and tarnished we as a collective civilization have made this book! I will only look at it as a law giving book from now on.....I think that will work better for me than it has in the past! I don't want this thread to be a put-down for people who chose a religion, or who were born into one and now accept it as their own truth. I would ask each one to look deep into their hearts and challenge their beliefs about religion and see if they could do better with their own self-reliance and ideas! Yes,love God, if you choose to believe in one, but DO IT CONSCIOUSLY!
    Thanks, Ghost. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, in his treatise on the common law, pointed out that law began as a means of vengeance, an "eye for an eye".

    In the Old testament, this was meant to limit punishment to equal proportions as a kind of "workman's compensation" rule. If you damaged as man's eye, you must make that loss in equivalent terms, replacing the lost use of that eye. This concept is also understood in our Constitution when it refuses excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment. Punishment is measured to fit the crime.

    Strangers also were included in this framework of rules.
    As Israel had been slaves and strangers in a strange land, they were to remember that in dealing with strangers.

    In Jesus' teaching of Matthew 5 through 7, which I like to call his "thesis on the law", and others call the beautitudes, he points out that his followers are not to seek vengeance, but to love those that hate you, pray for those that use you, etc.

    In this, we see a direct separation of "church and state". But it also indicates that the state does NOT have "first dibs" on acts of vengeance. It is always the responsibility of the citizen to find ways of justification. Just as isaiah 54:17 guaranteed the vindication of God for the accused, so is the accused, under New testament law, to be vindicated by the people if possible.

    "Due process" in this ancient sense, means that the powers of state, the power of "wrath" as Paul writes in Romans 13, is "due" only AFTER the people have decided there is no other alternative.

    That is the bri;lliance of Paul's teachig. By declaring that jesus died in payment for our sins, which is lawbreaking(1 John 3:4), we are to realize that the grace extended to us under law is to be extended to others if possible.

    This parallel between earthly law and heavenly law is summarized in the "Lord's Prayer". We ask "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", and then there follows the idea of forgiveness of debts and trespasses.

    That was the model of law established ideally by the Puritans and Quakers in the US.

    From Justice Joseph Story in the early 1800s to Robert Bork more recently, it is reciognized that "due process" is a defense of the individual and individual rights against the state. In order to justify state interest, the state must show "compelling interest" that allows it to use "eye for eye" methods of punishment.

    Paul's idea of "due process" was far more sweeping. If we accept the sacrifice of jesus under law, we are "dead to the law" a privilege and immunity that ensures we are without punishment as long as we harm no other. That is "habeas corpus" in a n absolute sense, dependent on our willingness to practice forgiveness and mercy as our own defense against the law. Against such, wrote Paul, there is no law.

    That is a very different concept from religion, which seeks to justify itself and condemn others, and shows no love toward those who believe differently.

  7. #7
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    That is a very different concept from religion, which seeks to justify itself and condemn others, and shows no love toward those who believe differently. Very

  8. #8
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Sorry,I'm not very good with computers......pushed the wrong button. What I wanted to say is very well put! I've noticed that a lot of religions will fein love in order to get what they want, or show what they want to show. And naturally, people will oblidge them, for it serves some purpose to the person also....soothing their guilt or their fear. One thing that I'm learning is to let people have their pain. If they look to their pain often enough they will see the message in it for their lives. I firmly believe that ALL pain is simply resistance. Some religious leaders understand this principle and use it to their advantage when it suits their needs. It helps to keep the masses stuck....and needy. For example...have you ever seen a football player injured....but he still goes out and performs his task while still hurt? His purpose is in him and drives his will to do what is at hand.

  9. #9
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG
    Sorry,I'm not very good with computers......pushed the wrong button.
    For future reference. There is a EDIT button next to the QUOTE button in the lower right hand corner of every post you make. Note that you must be logged in. This EDIT button allows you to edit (make changes too) your post. However, there is a time limit on how long you have to edit your posts at Scam.com, 24-72 hours, or something like that. Some forums will allow you to edit posts for a indefinite period of time.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

  10. #10
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    Re: What does religion give you that you can't giv

    Quote Originally Posted by nomaxim View Post
    For future reference. There is a EDIT button next to the QUOTE button in the lower right hand corner of every post you make. Note that you must be logged in. This EDIT button allows you to edit (make changes too) your post. However, there is a time limit on how long you have to edit your posts at Scam.com, 24-72 hours, or something like that. Some forums will allow you to edit posts for a indefinite period of time.
    Thank you,nomaxim....i'd be old enough to know better....if I was a lot younger!!!!I fiddle mostly with race cars and large trucks!GHOST D.

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