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  1. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Re: Lincoln's once said

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim
    True, but did you know that an often heard historical quote from Thomas Jefferson, that the left uses to justify rooting for America's defeat, is in fact not true?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    This is interesting. I'm not familiar with this "left" that is "rooting for America's defeat". Could you provide me with an example?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim (citing EagleOne)
    The mantra of the left is:

    1. The President lied;
    2. The war is illegal;
    3. We cannot win the war; and
    4. We support the troops
    I'm afraid I don't understood.

    First of all it's not that the President lied, it's that his administration engaged in a systematic campaign of deception.

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?

    That the war is illegal is perfectly self-evident.

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat?'

    The statement "We cannot win the war" presumes there is something to be won, or that a stated objective is desirable. In this case, whatever that objective may be, the means are a war of aggression, "the supreme international crime".

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?

    When people opposed to the war say "We support the troops", what they mean is they tried to prevent the troops from being sent over to Iraq to fight an illegal and immoral war of aggression, and are fighting to bring them home (as opposed to proponents of war, who argued to send them to be put in harm's way and who argue to keep them there).

    How does this equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?

    Please explain.
    Thanks a bunch!

  2. #18
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    6,643

    Re: Lincoln's once said

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    I'm afraid I don't understood.

    First of all it's not that the President lied, it's that his administration engaged in a systematic campaign of deception.
    An opinion that is not supported by any investigative conclusions to date, nor has any credible evidence backing up such reckless and irresponsible accusations.

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?
    Lets see... Saying that the U.S. government willfully deceived the world so they could take out Saddam, is in essence the same thing we hear from Bin Laden and top members of various other terrorist organizations, for the purpose of gaining international support for their cause, as well as motivating more Muslim extremists to take up arms and kill U.S. soldiers and innocent Iraqi's. That's how it does Yirmeyahu.

    That the war is illegal is perfectly self-evident.
    To you Yirmeyahu, but very few others.

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat?'
    Proclaiming that the United States has broken the law and committed criminal acts by removing Saddam Insane (after he refused to comply with U.N. demands AGAIN) without ever being convicted, or having the benefit of a trial, from someone who as far as I know, isn't a legal scholar, is not what I would call someone with American interests in mind.

    The statement "We cannot win the war" presumes there is something to be won, or that a stated objective is desirable. In this case, whatever that objective may be, the means are a war of aggression, "the supreme international crime".

    How does making this observation equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?
    Proclaiming that the United States has broken the law and committed criminal acts by removing Saddam Insane (after he refused to comply with U.N. demands AGAIN) without ever being convicted, or having the benefit of a trial, from someone who as far as I know, isn't a legal scholar, is not what I would call someone with American interests in mind.

    When people opposed to the war say "We support the troops", what they mean is they tried to prevent the troops from being sent over to Iraq to fight an illegal and immoral war of aggression, Once again... An opinion of yours that you present as fact. and are fighting to bring them home (as opposed to proponents of war, who argued to send them to be put in harm's way and who argue to keep them there).

    How does this equate into "rooting for America's defeat"?
    Are you that far gone Yirmeyahu? If we pull out before Iraq has a stable government and the necessary military forces in place to protect that government and its citizens, the country will be overtaken by insurgence, Muslim extremists and a whole host of terrorist organizations looking for a place they can call home. We all want this war to come to an end, but advocating that our troops leave before they have reached their objectives, means you support America losing the war in Iraq.

    Please explain.
    Thanks a bunch!
    Yirmeyahu, believe it or not, the absolute last thing I ever want to do is resort to insulting people... But when it comes to people like you who do nothing but blame the United States for this war, never lay any blame on our enemies and quite often step up to to the plate and make excuses on behalf of our enemies, in fact makes you Yirmeyahu Americas enemy.

    .

  3. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    12,866

    Re: Lincoln's once said

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Yirmeyahu, believe it or not, the absolute last thing I ever want to do is resort to insulting people... But when it comes to people like you who do nothing but blame the United States for this war, never lay any blame on our enemies and quite often step up to to the plate and make excuses on behalf of our enemies, in fact makes you Yirmeyahu Americas enemy.

    .
    Actually if you want to be considered honest and technically correct, Yirmeyahu would not be considered America's enemy. The Bush administration's enemy perhaps as it was that particular administration who broke the international law, not America. Bush has a lot of enemies these days, but they aren't America's enemies.

    Lady Mod

  4. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,099

    Re: Lincoln's once said

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    First of all it's not that the President lied, it's that his administration engaged in a systematic campaign of deception.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim
    An opinion that is not supported by any investigative conclusions to date, nor has any credible evidence backing up such reckless and irresponsible accusations.
    On the contrary, what was an opinion not supported by any evidence, what was a reckless and irresponsible accusation, was that Iraq was somehow a "threat" to the US because of its WMD and ties to Al Qaeda.

    That there was no credible evidence supporting their claims (and hence, that they waged a campaign of deception) is easily demonstrable, as I have done repeatedly.

    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=9367
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=2231
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=2750
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=3250
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=3425
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=3517
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=10446
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=9596

    I asked you how making this observation equates into "rooting for American's defeat". You responded by saying that Bin Laden also says that they lied in order to gain support. This is interesting, since it was well predicted in advance that the invasion would be like a recruiting poster for Al Qaeda. They deceived the world so they could gain international support to wage a war of aggression that would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and that was well predicted in advance to increase the threat of terrorism by increasing anti-American sentiment and Muslim extremism, and providing extremists with a new training ground.

    Yet, this is not equated with ruining America. On the contrary, pointing out these truths is "rooting for America's defeat". Truth is the enemy of America, it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirm
    That the war is illegal is perfectly self-evident.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim
    To you Yirmeyahu, but very few others.
    Perhaps. It was a war of aggression, "the supreme international crime" nonetheless.

    I asked you how making this observation equates into "rooting for America's defeat". You said the U.S. hasn't had the benefit of a trial and that I am not a legal scholar, and therefore I don't have American interests in mind when I make this observation.

    This is, of course, nonsense, the logical fallacy being perfectly apparent to any sane and rational person. By this rationale, one could argue that to say "Hitler waged a war of aggression" would be wrong, coming from anyone who isn't a "legal scholar", since Hitler never had a trial.

    It's nonsense, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirm
    When people opposed to the war say "We support the troops", what they mean is they tried to prevent the troops from being sent over to Iraq to fight an illegal and immoral war of aggression...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim
    Once again... An opinion of yours that you present as fact.
    It is my opinion that the war was immoral, yes. However, it is a fact that the war is an illegal war of aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirm
    and are fighting to bring them home (as opposed to proponents of war, who argued to send them to be put in harm's way and who argue to keep them there).
    I asked you how making this observation, that it's the anti-war activists who didn't want to send the troops to be put in harm's way in the first place, and who want to see them brought home, while it's the pro-war activists who wanted to send troops to be put in harm's way, and want them to remain there to continue to be put in harm's way, equates's into "rooting for America's defeat".

    You responded that to leave Iraq now, "the country will be overtaken by insurgence, Muslim extremists and a whole host of terrorist organizations".

    Ironically, as noted also above, we anti-war protestors (and many other observers from all ends of the spectrum) pointed out well before the invasion that Iraqis would likely resist any invasion and that it would increase anti-American hatred (by which I mean hatred towards US foreign-policy) and increase the threat of terrorism. So if we just would have NOT waged a war of aggression, there wouldn't be any such mess which, Grim argues, we must keep our troops there in harms way to clean up.

    But I disagree with the premise. The resistance, obviously, is a result of the invasion and the presence of foreign troops. If the cause of the resistence leaves, it follows that the resistence, having lost its purpose for being, would end. Moreover, as far as the sectarian violence is concerned, the US should not be involved in any civil war in any foreign nation. The only role the US should play in any such conflict is as a peace negotiator acting to bring both parties to the conference table. And, of course, our remaining in Iraq only results in increased hatred of our policies and will continue to increase the threat of terrorism so long as we occupy the country, much as in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

    You also said that calling for the troops to come home "means you support America losing the war in Iraq." First of all, I have no interest in seeing America "win" any war of aggression. Secondly, the stated objectives of the war were to rid Iraq of WMD (there were none, of course) and to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. This has been accomplished. The objective of the war was achieved. It was, shall we say, "won", much to the detriment of US interests (by which I mean the interests of the American people, not the government or business interests). Your argument is, therefore, a non sequitur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim
    But when it comes to people like you who do nothing but blame the United States for this war, never lay any blame on our enemies and quite often step up to to the plate and make excuses on behalf of our enemies, in fact makes you Yirmeyahu Americas enemy.
    First, I don't consider the Iraqi people to be "our enemies". Secondly, who should we "blame"--which is to say, who should we hold accountable--for waging a war of aggression but the party who waged the war of aggerssion? Should we hold Iraq or the Iraqi people accountable for the actions of the US? Should we punish members of Al Qaeda for crimes commited by the US?

    I presume you're relying on your rationales given above to make this statement about me being "America's enemy". I've demonstrated your fallacies, so will dismiss the comment.

    Yet I'll ask once more: How does making any of the observations I've made equate me to being "America's enemy"?

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