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  1. #1
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    Proof that God exists

    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/logic.php

    I don't know if this site has been posted here before. I'm currently e-mailing back and forth with the owner. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    I really started to doubt the existence of God, until the 2008 elections revived my faith.

  3. #3
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchBoy View Post
    I really started to doubt the existence of God, until the 2008 elections revived my faith.
    Lol, I'd post the e-mails, but I don't want to violate the owners privacy. He found my info on this site by googling my e-mail address (a bit cyber-stalkerish if you ask me, but no big deal to me). I think he was trying to intimidate me a little bit, but unfortunately it didn't work out well.

    I'd really like to know what kazza thinks though, as he tries to use basic laws to back up his point.

  4. #4
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23 View Post
    Lol, I'd post the e-mails, but I don't want to violate the owners privacy. He found my info on this site by googling my e-mail address (a bit cyber-stalkerish if you ask me, but no big deal to me). I think he was trying to intimidate me a little bit, but unfortunately it didn't work out well.

    I'd really like to know what kazza thinks though, as he tries to use basic laws to back up his point.
    It was a nice try, but no cigar. Just a variation on ancient arguments. Using Romans 1:18-20 offers him nothing as proof. I've dealt with that right here on Scams.

    If we uise Romans 1:18-20 as undeniable proof, we then must back up to verse 17 where Paul quotes from the OT that the just shall live by faith.

    It seems a little strange that God would ask the just to live by faith while revealing himself beyond doubt to the unrighteous.

    That is a ridiculous case of taking a scripture out of context and trying to prove a point.

  5. #5
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Owner has some circular reasoning. I am stuck on "Absolute Moral Laws". Can not go forward.

  6. #6
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
    Owner has some circular reasoning. I am stuck on "Absolute Moral Laws". Can not go forward.
    I had the same problem, I eventually just clicked yes to that one just to get through.

  7. #7
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Fuck it, the guy is a pompous douche bag. Parts in red are him, parts in black are me, the purple part is a reply from me. Here are the e-mails:

    Hello Lisa,

    Thanks for your e-mail. I'll put my comments in red.


    Actually, it's not so much as negative as it is questioning. Your site is based on absolutes, things are very black and white. But reality is gray, there is middle ground and in real life there aren't many absolutes.

    Problem is, your statements "reality is gray," "there is middle ground," and "in real life there aren't many absolutes," are ALL absolute statements, and absolutes cannot exist outside of God. How do you know any of them to be absolutelty true?

    If someone says "Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America and a Republican" the statement is not an absolute. It's partially true, partially false.

    Coming up with statements that are not absolute, in no way shows that there "aren't many absolutes," besides saying that the statement is "partially true, and partially false" IS an absolute claim.

    Also, if you're trying to convince people of the existence of God, you'd have better luck if you weren't coming off as such a know it all.

    If you read the site, you will see that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. That's not up to me, I am merely commanded to speak the truth. Interestingly, advising me on how to have 'better luck' makes it appear as though YOU are the one who 'knows it all.'

    I think you're generating more discontent and dislike than you are convincing people that God exists.

    "To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life." (2 Corinthians 2:16).

    I don't think Jesus convinced people that he was the son of God by being condescending.

    Well, I have no doubt that the people who heard Him, weren't too pleased with what He said either, I mean they did curcify Him after all.


    Thanks,

    Lisa

    Thanks again for your e-mail Lisa. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to heed these wise words: " If you think someone is filthy, instead of calling them "filth" recommend that they take a bath or shower. Maybe even use some deodorant or antiperspirant. It's far more constructive than just letting them know you think they're filthy." ;-)


    Cheers,

    Sye


    Lol, what is your username on scam?

    I'm not on scam, I googled your e-mail address.

    I wasn't trying to be insulting, by the way, I was just pointing things out.

    I wasn't insulted.

    Nothing I said was an absolute, unless you chose to interpret it that way.

    Your claims were absolute claims. If you don't mean them absolutely then you should preface your remarks that way.

    Life does have things that are black and white, but it also has areas that are gray and in the middle.

    See, you are doing it again :-) THAT is an absolute truth claim, and again, truth does not exist outside of God.

    It's hard to make something an absolute especially if you don't understand or know what that thing is, which is where a lot of "gray" areas of life sit.

    This is a problem for people who do not have an absolute standard of truth, not for those who do.

    Jesus was crucified, but show me in the bible where he sounded like you when he spoke.

    You obviously have not picked up your Bible lately ;-) Jesus said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6). He did not say that he KNEW the truth but that He IS the truth, that is highly offensive to those who deny HIm. Jesus called the Pharisee's "whitewashed tombs which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean." (Matthew 23:27). I mean he cleared the temple of merchants with a whip (John 2:15). They murdered Him because of His claims. The apostles were constantly persecuted, and many also murdered for what they said. You really ought to read your Bible more.

    Jesus was about understanding and teaching, your site doesn't even come close to that same kind of attitude. In your attempt to make your point you're losing more ground than you're gaining with those who don't believe

    Read Romans 1:18-21. There are none who do not believe. Those who claim not to believe are merely suppressing the truth.

    - and it's not the message, per se, but the way you present it that's doing that.

    Give me an example, and please give your Biblical justification for your point.

    And if you weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, then why would you even bother starting a site attempting to prove the existence of God? That simply doesn't make any sense.

    I did not make a site attempting to prove the existence of God, I made a site which exposes the suppression of the truth by those who deny God, by showing proof that He exists. Man cannot convert man, that is up to God.

    Cheers,

    Sye


    I disagree with you completely. But, neither of us are going to change our minds. You choose to believe in something that uses circumstantial "evidence" (if you can call it that) to prove, and even then it really doesn't prove anything. I'll be posting a link to your site on scam.com, I want to see what they think of it.

    By the way, I don't believe that God doesn't exist. And despite what you think, it's obvious to everyone but you why you created that site.

    You are entitled to disagree with me, but, as with most who do, there is no Biblical justification for that disagreement. I actually welcome (and ask for) corrections with anything I have said (http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/he...-this-site.php) but all I get is the usual arbitrary complaints.

    The existence of God is not based on 'circumstantial evidence.' It is actually because God exists that anyone can call ANYTHING 'evidence.' God is the necessary precondition for the proof or evidence of anything as both presuppose the existence of universal, abstract, invariant laws, which cannot be accounted for outside of God, and are accounted for with God. You see Lisa, the very fact that you say that the site "really doesn't prove anything,' shows a precommitment to the very concept of proof which YOU cannot account for without God.

    As far as you saying that it is "obvious to everyone" why I created the site, or basically, "It's true, because we all say it's true," I hope that's not your best argument, cause it that is a logical fallacy of "argumentum ad populum."

    Sure lot'sof people say that "a god" exists, but it is usually not God at all, but an idol of their own making, so that they do not have to submit to the one true God of Christianity.

    Cheers,

    Sye



    Show me something valid that shows that everything you claim came from God did. And the bible doesn't count, that's man made.

    Wow, you really like making logically fallacious arguments! This one is called "begging the question." You assume that the Bible is man made, in order to argue that it is man made. Please prove that the Bible is NOT the infallible, inspired Word of God. You see Lisa, what you want me to do is give up my ultimate authority (God and HIs Word), while refusing to give up yours (your own ability to reason). It would be like me saying "Show me something that shows that everything that you reason is valid, but don't use your ability to reason." Hardly makes sense.

    Are you honestly saying that man didn't write the bible? God came down to earth, wrote the bible, then left? It's not even close to infallible. My own ability to reason is realizing that the more we communicate, the more absolutely ridiculous your round about arguments and attempts to justify your complete lack of logic are. But just to make sure I'm not the only seeing this, I'll be posting all communications between us on scam.com so everyone else can see just how "bright" you are? (And just so you don't get confused, that is sarcasm.) There simply is nothing left to discuss because you have absolutely no ability to distinguish reality from what you want. Oh and PS, you can't refute me if I'm making a point that you don't know God exists by saying "does so".

    You don't need to use a lot of words, all I'd like to see is something showing that God created everything, like you state. You state truth wouldn't exist without God, prove that. Prove that if God was absent, truth would not exist. (This would, of course, require you to show that somehow God didn't exist to show that truth wouldn't exist without God, you realize this right?)

    Not at all, it is true by the impossibility of the contrary. God accounts for the necessary preconditions of proof and evidence, such as universal, abstract, invariant laws, while nothing else can. Sure, you can deny this claim, but you would have no basis for your denial, which reduces it to absurdity. Still, I will leave the floor open to you: How do you account for the universal, abstract, invariant laws by which you prove anything, and how do you know anything to be true? You see, you say that you believe in God, but as I suspected, you only believe in an idol of your own making, not the one true God of Scripture.

    You can talk all you want, use all the words you want, but that doesn't change that everything your using to make your point is circumstantial.

    Is that absolutely true Lisa? If so, how do you know it (or anything) to be absolutely true? If not, you are refuted.

    Cheers,

    Sye

  8. #8
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
    Owner has some circular reasoning. I am stuck on "Absolute Moral Laws". Can not go forward.
    Hello all. Thanks to Lisa for posting our exchanges. As to your complaint of circular reasoning, I disagree, but please tell me why circular reasoning is absolutely not allowed according to your worldview?

    Cheers,

    Sye
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

  9. #9
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    It seems a little strange that God would ask the just to live by faith while revealing himself beyond doubt to the unrighteous.
    So, do the unrighteous have an excuse for denying God when they stand before Him? If not, why not? If so, please justify that excuse Biblically.

    Cheers,

    Sye
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

  10. #10
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23 View Post
    Fuck it, the guy is a pompous douche bag.
    You may believe so, but you are certainly not being consistent with your signature:

    "If you think someone is filthy, instead of calling them "filth" recommend that they take a bath or shower. Maybe even use some deodorant or antiperspirant. It's far more constructive than just letting them know you think they're filthy."

    But, then again, consistency does not seem to be your strong suit.

    Cheers,

    Sye
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

  11. #11
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sye TenB View Post
    You may believe so, but you are certainly not being consistent with your signature:

    "If you think someone is filthy, instead of calling them "filth" recommend that they take a bath or shower. Maybe even use some deodorant or antiperspirant. It's far more constructive than just letting them know you think they're filthy."

    But, then again, consistency does not seem to be your strong suit.

    Cheers,

    Sye
    First, that was my signature from awhile ago, they can change, and it wasn't applicable to this forum, but the politics forum where they continued to overuse the word filth. BUT I'm sure you didn't bother to really look into that.

    Second of all, I didn't call you filthy, I called you a douche bag. And you are. You're pompous and arrogant as well, which means if I were to make any recommendations on how to be more humble they'd be ignored because you can't see past the tip of your nose to realize that you could possibly be wrong.

  12. #12
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23 View Post
    First, that was my signature from awhile ago, they can change
    So, you are not consistent with your past signature, that's my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23 View Post
    Second of all, I didn't call you filthy, I called you a douche bag. And you are. You're pompous and arrogant as well, which means if I were to make any recommendations on how to be more humble they'd be ignored because you can't see past the tip of your nose to realize that you could possibly be wrong.
    Ah, so your sentiment only applied to the word "filth" got it ;-)

    By the way, thanks for being such a stellar example of what a person looks like who thinks they may possibly be wrong :-)
    Last edited by Sye TenB; 11-08-2009 at 05:16 PM.
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

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    Re: Proof that God exists

    this is really interesting!? it's trying to define what god is to us/should be in our own lives!? you really have to read between the lines here!? this person definately has a unique insight about it!? although i dont know if the website is refined enough to get the idea across to everyone!? i think personal dialogue is the best way as long as it stays clean!? there may be some over exuberance due to young age of author!? not enough hardship to engender a gentle humility!?...... ok, my ass is about kicked now!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    Last edited by lexx; 11-08-2009 at 08:11 PM.
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  14. #14
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    there may be some over exuberance due to young age of author!? not enough hardship to engender a gentle humility!?......
    46...and you have no idea :-)

    As I say on the site, I welcome correction in those areas where I have deviated from kindness and humility. If you have a specific complaint, please share it, and please supply Biblical support for your postion.

    Cheers,

    Sye
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

  15. #15
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    I tried to get through... most of those "Absolute" statements will at some times have exceptions. That makes them not absolute.

    And who is anyone to impose their morals on others? Well in general, the vast majority of human population agrees that molesting children is wrong, but if God is "nature" then you see God's creations practicing molestation of children all the time.

    In fact, that one in particular is quite disturbing to most people, but in the case of an apocolypse, it may become nessicary to breed with kin to survive. In fact, if you believe the bible, kin did have to breed at some point. We started with Adam and Eve you know.

    Then after the "flood", how many humans were there? More in-breeding. The bible gives examples of how, what I feel is your most absolute example, is not absolute.

    You're website offers no flexibility. I assume discussing this with you will be about as reasonable.

  16. #16
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    Re: Proof that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sye TenB View Post
    46...and you have no idea :-)

    As I say on the site, I welcome correction in those areas where I have deviated from kindness and humility. If you have a specific complaint, please share it, and please supply Biblical support for your postion.

    Cheers,

    Sye
    You'll find a hard time counting many people here who believe the bible is proof of anything.

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