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  1. #1
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    Did God give us freewill?

    This is a summary of positions. If God doesn't exist, then we have no freewill. We just obey our instincts and intellect. If God does exist, he gave us freewill to accept or reject Him. If God exists and he programed us, then we are His robots. If we are His robots and we do evil, then God is evil. According to Christians, we have freewill. Otherwise, there would be no sin. The Bible clearly regards freewill as an important matter. Why would God punish us if we were not responsible for sinning?
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-11-2009 at 05:29 PM.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    If God doesn't exist, then we have no freewill. We just obey our instincts and intellect.
    Wrong again. Freedom is built into the fabric of our thoughts with or without God. It's called Godel's theorem, which says that in any consistent axiomatic formulation of number theory, there exists undecidable propositions, even an infinity of them.

    So, even guided by instinct and intellect, you will still have to face an infinity of propositions for which there are no predictive answers.

    If God does exist, he gave us freewill to accept or reject Him. If God exists and he programed us, then we are His robots.
    That's the problem. Assume that God does exist. If so, then we must decide exactly what it is we are "accepting" or "rejecting". Is it God, or is it merely a human conception of God, of which there are over 38,000 versions in Christianity alone? It is not enough that we accept or reject God, but we must also discover exactly which is the correct one to accept or reject, which is fully consistent with Godel's theorem.

    Did God create us as robots? If God is omniscient, then it follows that all our choices will be in perfect accordance with his perfect knowledge. Consequently, assuming such a God, we must assume that we are ALREADY going to heaven or hell based on God's perfect foreknowledge.

    Either the christian concept of free will is totally wrong, or we can do nothing at all to alter our destiny before God. Those who don't "accept" God or Christ will go to hell, but that is already known by God.

    If we are His robots and we do evil then God is evil.
    I need only to remind you of isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. This merely anticipatwes your argument and says that god created evil.

    According to Christians, we have freewill. Otherwise, there would be no sin. The Bible clearly regards freewill as an important matter. Why would God punish us if we were not responsible for sinning?
    But "sin" is defined as transgression of the law(1 John 3:4), so that we cannot help but break the law, as the entirety of the New Testament tells us. But the theology of the NT says that Jesus, as the "Lord God" of the OT, came and set us free of the penalty of that law, which is death, by dying for us as payment.

    Therefore, salvation is a free gift to all(Romans 5:18) which guarantees grace to all.

    As I have pointed out repeatedly, the Christian religion is simply wrong. Paul has already told us there exists no decision procedure to get from "here" to "God", and there is obvioulsy no doctrinal or dogmatic procedure to organize in God's name, due to Godel's theorem and Romans 8:7, and the proof is 38,000 varieties of Christianity.

    Therefore, the true choice for freedom before God would be the same as a true choice for freedom with no God: do not follow any man claiming to represent Christ, which is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:23.

    I can point this out as many times as you can present your flawed reason.

  3. #3
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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    If Doojie would read postings we would not have this problem. I posted several issues regarding the question. If you notice, I didn't answer the question. Now, Doojie carries on as if I had taken a position. Just give us your opinion Doojie, don't tell me my answer.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    I've spent a little time comparing some biblical passages, and it seems to me that God is not omniscient. For that reason, to me, any question about freewill and God is paradoxal in nature. We can not prove or disprove freewill, we simply operate in accordance with our conscience, and that conscience ultimately leads to God. I violate my conscience regularly...doing things that I know are wrong.

    "If there is no God" is an argument to convince ourselves that there is no accountability except to ourselves. Maybe that's good enough for some...but is probably why the world is in such a mess.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    If Doojie would read postings we would not have this problem. I posted several issues regarding the question. If you notice, I didn't answer the question. Now, Doojie carries on as if I had taken a position. Just give us your opinion Doojie, don't tell me my answer.
    If you put question marks in right places, than we would not have this problem. The way you posted, it reads like a statement and not as a question.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    If Doojie would read postings we would not have this problem. I posted several issues regarding the question. If you notice, I didn't answer the question. Now, Doojie carries on as if I had taken a position. Just give us your opinion Doojie, don't tell me my answer.
    I merely stated the positions as you presented them and showed why they will not work as you present them. That's my answer to your statement.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by sparques View Post
    I've spent a little time comparing some biblical passages, and it seems to me that God is not omniscient.
    That's the whole point. What God is or is not would simply be an opinion and no more. We simply don't know.

    For that reason, to me, any question about freewill and God is paradoxal in nature.
    Precisely, but even assuming an omniscient God, what more can we know about "Him"? Nothing at all. God is all knowing and we are not, which makes our choices in that regard, of necessity, "free", even though we may indeed have a destiny already selected for us. Freedom is merely the absence of absolute knowledge.

    We can not prove or disprove freewill, we simply operate in accordance with our conscience, and that conscience ultimately leads to God. I violate my conscience regularly...doing things that I know are wrong.
    Our conscience may lead us to a concept of God, of what we believe is God, but not in any provable way to God. If the conscience could clearly tell us right from wrong, we would have a decision procedure by which to approach God, and if a decision procedure, then algorithms. If algorithms, then a computer which can retain all necessary decisions by which we can get to God. Righteousness would then just be a matter of programming.

    "If there is no God" is an argument to convince ourselves that there is no accountability except to ourselves. Maybe that's good enough for some...but is probably why the world is in such a mess.
    As I point out in a number of places, the result will be the same regardless of whether we believe in a God or not, since even the most disciplined belief in God produces a diversity of ideas about God, just as the most disciplined study of mathematics will ultimately result in an infinity of undecidable propositions. The result, God or no God, will be the same, which in itself speaks for a certain kind of "predestination".

    If there is a "way" to God which can be achieved by decisions, then there would be no difference between a well programmed computer and a "son of God". All decisions which can be translated into language, can be translated into algorithms and programmed mechanically.

    But Paul has anticipated even this conundrum, by showing first in Romans 7 that we are incapable of making necessary decisions, that there must be something greater than ourselves to direct us, then he further states that the natural mind cannot be subject to God, and then proceeds logically from that to show there is no way we can decide to be "elect" children of God.

    It is as if Paul looked 2000 years into the future and dealt with a problem we are only now dealing with.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    In asking the intial question , you answered yourself.
    Very funny, thanks.
    LOL

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
    If you put question marks in right places, than we would not have this problem. The way you posted, it reads like a statement and not as a question.
    Thanks. I'll post different next time.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    dont we need to know what IS will and what makes it "free"!? before we dive into whether we have it and why!? ok, maybe just I need to know!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  11. #11
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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    That's the whole point. What God is or is not would simply be an opinion and no more. We simply don't know.
    I agree. We have ancient spiritual texts from which to work, although, regardless of the religion that they represent, they are all written by men from long ago. All with an agenda that matched their time...which was probably a fundamental method of crowd control over a growing civilization. Who God is or What He is, is lost. Our reference material is flawed. God must be sought elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Precisely, but even assuming an omniscient God, what more can we know about "Him"? Nothing at all. God is all knowing and we are not, which makes our choices in that regard, of necessity, "free", even though we may indeed have a destiny already selected for us. Freedom is merely the absence of absolute knowledge.
    I can not assume an omniscient God. Not with the reference material available. I'm sorry. Someone else will have to address this premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Our conscience may lead us to a concept of God, of what we believe is God, but not in any provable way to God. If the conscience could clearly tell us right from wrong, we would have a decision procedure by which to approach God, and if a decision procedure, then algorithms. If algorithms, then a computer which can retain all necessary decisions by which we can get to God. Righteousness would then just be a matter of programming.
    Righteousness is, in fact, programmable. But as humans, we have the ability to bypass the programming and access subroutines which violate the main source code. We justify that violation in an instant, then condemn ourselves after the fact. This is the difference between us and the machine and an example of freewill.


    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    As I point out in a number of places, the result will be the same regardless of whether we believe in a God or not, since even the most disciplined belief in God produces a diversity of ideas about God, just as the most disciplined study of mathematics will ultimately result in an infinity of undecidable propositions. The result, God or no God, will be the same, which in itself speaks for a certain kind of "predestination".

    This is the paradox. You can not know whether taking the left road in the wye leads to the wrong path...you only know that it will lead to another path, another decision. God or no God, these decisions are made. Belief or no belief.

    But the paradox is used by those ancient writers to manipulate the population, and also to give them comfort for their flawed ways. It is a way to say, "Everyone sucks...do your best...there is still a way to get to heaven even though you aren't perfect."

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    If there is a "way" to God which can be achieved by decisions, then there would be no difference between a well programmed computer and a "son of God". All decisions which can be translated into language, can be translated into algorithms and programmed mechanically.
    Correct. So a computer can go to heaven...but we can not. At least, not according to the Bible. But then, certain writers built in some caveats to bypass that programming.

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    But Paul has anticipated even this conundrum, by showing first in Romans 7 that we are incapable of making necessary decisions, that there must be something greater than ourselves to direct us, then he further states that the natural mind cannot be subject to God, and then proceeds logically from that to show there is no way we can decide to be "elect" children of God.
    Exactly. He was a snake oil salesman. Selling a perfect afterlife, despite our imperfections. Selling freedom to an oppressed people under Roman rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    It is as if Paul looked 2000 years into the future and dealt with a problem we are only now dealing with.
    Nah...it just shows that human nature hasn't changed in 2000 years. We have always sucked. He didn't see the future. He just addressed what he saw around him....and capitalized on it.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    dont we need to know what IS will and what makes it "free"!? before we dive into whether we have it and why!? ok, maybe just I need to know!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    Ok Lexx..I'll try to define it. "Will" is "Drive". Will is either weak or strong. It is that level of drive that you are "willing" to put forth in any given scenario. To do that extra push-up when you are completely spent, is an example of extended will. To give up on your push-ups before you break a sweat is an example of weak will.

    I want a chocolate doughnut...but it is bad for me. Would I eat it if it was going to kill me immediately? No. But I can justify eating it even though I'm told it will kill me eventually, when added to all the other crap I ingest. So, I justify the chocolate doughnut on the idea that I won't have another one tomorrow. But tomorrow comes, there's another available doughnut, and I can make the same decision as though yesterday never occurred.

    What is will to me? It is fighting against our nature toward the easy route, because something tells us that the easy route lacks ultimate reward. Freewill says that it is our choice and no one elses.

    My question is....Is God's will something different?

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    What a lot of people don't understand it that God has no need to go around punishing us for anything. Every action, decision has consequences. Make a bad decision, you pay those consequences, if not right away, eventually. Make good decisions you reap the rewards.

    Man decided to call the law, "sin". He needed a guideline apparently. Man seems to be OCD in this respect, he keeps making laws for him to break. Actually, he keeps making laws to break because it's profitable for the state. Free will? We have always had it, it wasn't granted to us. Even animals have it, they can obey their masters or not. They reap whatever consequences they reap from either decision. Instinct has nothing to do with freewill. Those are two seperate issues. Even man has instincts that he follows.

    "Sin" is nothing more than a money making scheme dreamed up to make it profitable to our rulers. Always has been, always will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    If God doesn't exist, then we have no freewill. We just obey our instincts and intellect. If God does exist, he gave us freewill to accept or reject Him. If God exists and he programed us, then we are His robots. If we are His robots and we do evil, then God is evil. According to Christians, we have freewill. Otherwise, there would be no sin. The Bible clearly regards freewill as an important matter. Why would God punish us if we were not responsible for sinning?
    Last edited by sojustask; 10-11-2009 at 06:47 AM.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    If God doesn't exist, then we have no freewill.

    Bullshit. I can rather easily say that, in my opinion, god doesn't exist. This is an example of my exercising my freewill to say whatever the I please. :judges:

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by sparques View Post
    I agree. We have ancient spiritual texts from which to work, although, regardless of the religion that they represent, they are all written by men from long ago. All with an agenda that matched their time...which was probably a fundamental method of crowd control over a growing civilization. Who God is or What He is, is lost. Our reference material is flawed. God must be sought elsewhere.
    Most interesting is the story of the Jews, who were slaves themselves, and whose laws were given with the constant reminder that "you were slaves once, in Egypt". Something they tended to forget often.




    I can not assume an omniscient God. Not with the reference material available. I'm sorry. Someone else will have to address this premise.
    It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else assumes. Omniscience is something none of us even comes close to, so by postulating omniscience, one must also conclude that salvation cannot be dependent on freewill choice. You cannot assume omniscience because you have no way of being omniscient or knowing what it is, which means your opinion and mine in the matter, are like anal orifices. We all have them.



    Righteousness is, in fact, programmable.
    Really? By what program would you care to offer righteousness? If it is, then we can eliminate any confusion regarding the expectations of God, or even the necessity of God. In fact, we can eliminate Godel's theorem, which would be very hard, since it is a theorem.
    But as humans, we have the ability to bypass the programming and access subroutines which violate the main source code.
    Then define the main source code which we're violating.

    We justify that violation in an instant, then condemn ourselves after the fact. This is the difference between us and the machine and an example of freewill.
    We violate what we believe is right, not what is right in any absolute sense. If we can define truth in an absolute sense, it's programmable, and we need not worry ever again about such thing as competing governments. We can legally and morally kill others in the name of God.





    This is the paradox. You can not know whether taking the left road in the wye leads to the wrong path...you only know that it will lead to another path, another decision. God or no God, these decisions are made. Belief or no belief.
    Exactly. So where's the paradox? We don;t know, we can't choose absolutely. God or no God, it boils down to the same thing.

    But the paradox is used by those ancient writers to manipulate the population, and also to give them comfort for their flawed ways. It is a way to say, "Everyone sucks...do your best...there is still a way to get to heaven even though you aren't perfect."
    Maybe, except Paul said there is no such process within the power of human decisions, so there is no way for crowd control if there are no procedures for controlling the crowd. Jesus himself pointed out that there is no need to follow anyone who comes in the name of Christ(Matthew 24:23).



    Correct. So a computer can go to heaven...but we can not. At least, not according to the Bible. But then, certain writers built in some caveats to bypass that programming.
    How do you figure a computer can do what the human brain cannot do, especially in light of the Church-Turing thesis, and the fact that a computer is nothing more than the programming of the human brain. And...how would a computer know what steps are necessary to get to heaven if we don't?
    It follows logically that if a computer can do it, we can do it. But neither we nor computer can.



    Exactly. He was a snake oil salesman. Selling a perfect afterlife, despite our imperfections. Selling freedom to an oppressed people under Roman rule.
    Paul merely told them that if they were free, they were slaves to Christ, or if they were slaves, they were free in Christ. he also told them not to seek slavery if they could escape non-violently. he further told them he was a servant to no man, nor should they be if they could choose. Snake oil? Then the declaration of Independence is snake oil.



    Nah...it just shows that human nature hasn't changed in 2000 years. We have always sucked. He didn't see the future. He just addressed what he saw around him....and capitalized on it.
    How do you figure that? He gained nothing by the effort personally. He served time in jail, got arrested, slapped by his own High priest, suffered as much as other followers.

    Human nature hasn;t changed at all, which is why Paul's statement anticipates what we are only now beginning to deal with.

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    Re: Did God give us freewill

    Quote Originally Posted by sparques View Post
    Ok Lexx..I'll try to define it. "Will" is "Drive". Will is either weak or strong. It is that level of drive that you are "willing" to put forth in any given scenario. To do that extra push-up when you are completely spent, is an example of extended will. To give up on your push-ups before you break a sweat is an example of weak will.
    Philip Slater in "Earthwalk" points out that "will" is a mechanism created by immediate survival needs. A deer, confronting a mountain lion may exercise the 'will" to escape quickly, but exercises no discriminating need otherwise, in peaceful moments.

    Free will, in a religious context, as SoJustAsk points out, has to do with the creation of artificial survival needs in the form of "sin", which forces to exercise "will" in the constant need of escape, also manipulated by religion and government.

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