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  1. #33
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Well, Coontie. Definitely some of our dealings with the Indians weren't honorable but we didn't annihilate them and the idea that there were 90 million of them here is not true. When there is a clash of cultures usually one side prevails....... The Indians I think really got short changed were the ones, like the Cherokees, who tried to adapt to our ways and got screwed; no doubt about it, but also no doubt that it wasn't a war of total annihilation as you imply.

    As to the philosophical points against capitalism I would like to point out in it's defense that yes, there have been numerous problems with capitalism, however, more people live better lives around the world as a result of capitalism. Capitalism, for all its warts, has lifted more people out of the misery of poverty by far than any other economic system. Does it have its problems? Sure, but when you compare it to any alternative that is out there it shines like a new penny.
    Last edited by Roo; 09-12-2009 at 04:37 AM.

  2. #34
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    I just don't want you to forget Gazza.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Ridiculous?

    You claim that Christian fundamentalists are not only on the increase, but that they pose the same danger as radical Islam, but haven't posted anything that backs that up.

    You also claim that the op-ed's posted to start this thread, constitute proof, when neither of them are anything but opinion. Hell, one of them doesn't even imply it in the first place.

    When I asked you to give me some examples since 9/11, of violent attacks by Christian fundamentalists, you post a link to a guy who set off 3 bombs, the last of which was 3 years prior to 9/11. After you posted that link, you said, and I quote "There's plenty to choose from". Well, lets see them?

    I tell you what, just match these and we'll go from there:

    Islamic insurgents kill 3 Buddhist men

    Christians attacked Muslim gang

    Islamic Fundamentalists Murder Four School children

    UK: Violence erupts after Mosque Chief orders attack on protesters

    Chinese Muslims Stab 400 Infidels with Needles

    Oh btw... Did I mention that all those links, were attacks that took place during just the last week?

    .

  3. #35
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    You don't think the headline of the second article in the OP is a hint as to it's content?

    An Army of Home-Schooled "Christian Soldiers" On a Mission to "Take Back America for God"

    snip




    .
    Classic Gazza confusion!

    'Take Back America for God' is (obviously) not quite the same as 'Cut the head off those who don't accept muhammad', is it?


    Be careful about thinking you can go 'head to head' posting examples of Christian murderers vs. islamic murderers.

    Got 15 links? I got hundreds.

    It's just the way the world is today.

    How do you not get that?

    Go ahead. Do a little research.



    .
    There is not a truth existing which I fear
    or would wish unknown to the whole world."
    --Thomas Jefferson

  4. #36
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    You don't think the headline of the second article in the OP is a hint as to it's content?

    An Army of Home-Schooled "Christian Soldiers" On a Mission to "Take Back America for God"
    Are you talking about the phrase "Christian Soldiers"?

    That doesn't mean soldiers that take up arms... Geez. Read the article.

    I had about 10 - 15 links to post to answer your request but then I realised the links referred to Christian Terrorist attacks outside of the US and you specifically asked for attacks within the US since 9/11.
    Lets see them...

    The fact is that since the settlement of the US more people have been killed by Christian Fundamentalists than Islamic ones, not only in America, but the world over.
    OMFG... How about recent history? Looking back 400 years doesn't mean jack shit.

    Here's some facts for you:

    More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

    More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

    Islamic terrorists murder more people everyday than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

    In the last week, 131 people have died, and 263 have been critically wounded by Islamic fundementalists.

    In the month of August, 980 people were killed, and 2369 were hospitalized by Islamic fundementalists.


    Now bring on those 10-15 links.

    .
    Last edited by Grim17; 09-12-2009 at 12:48 AM.

  5. #37
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.
    I really doubt that. I might be wrong. Though in the next couple of days I will look into this.

    This seems to be a rather outrageous claim.

    I don't believe it. I will look into it though.

  6. #38
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    In other words, terrorism.

    You're fooling yourself if you believe that this type of behavior hasn't been prevalent in all religions since the dawn of time.

    .
    Religious doctrines change over time and this is one of the big problems with many followers of Islam; They are following tenets from 1,000 years ago and haven't moderated as have the major Christian religions. One has to ask where is the outrage in Mosques when wanton acts of slaughter are perpetuated on innocent people?

  7. #39
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Gazza... Time to admit it, everyone can see it... You just got Owned by Grim.

    Dont back pedal and change the rules, just admit it like a man. Now you are just embarrasing yourself.

  8. #40
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Hey Gazza, where are those 10-15 links to acts of Christian terrorism since 9/11 you have?

    Still waiting for them.

    .

  9. #41
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Compared to the practice of Islam Christianity has gone through many major reformations. As with any huge movement there are aberrations but that doesn't make the fact any less true. If you have your mind closed on the fact that is your choice but the fact remains that the major tenets of Islam are mired in the past and the failure of their leaders to address this makes the religion of Islam more of a problem. Fortunately there are many moderate muslims and hopefully they will influence the more radical ones, and in fact (that pesky word again) many people believe the best hope for a more moderate form of Islam is being birthed in the United States as I type.

  10. #42
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone View Post
    Ready for the real punch-line?

    obama, incomprehensible maggot that he is, chose 9/11 as his Day of Community Service or some such tripe. You know, instead of the one day to remember the victims of this massive attack on our own soil.

    Most don't know about this. I wonder how this will affect his rapidly waning popularity?


    .
    Apparently it increased his popularity. And this is but one story.

    http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1...-United-States

    In April 2009, President Barack Obama signed the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act which officially recognized September 11 as a National Day of Service and Remembrance.

    Today, President Obama, the Corporation for National and Community Service, MyGoodDeed and the 9/11 families are asking Americans to stand united in service to their communities as a way of honoring the memory of the thousands of victims who lost their lives on September 11, 2001.

    President Obama said through Proclamation on yesterday, "I proclaim September 11, 2009, as Patriot Day and National Day of Service and Remembrance. I call upon all departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States to display the flag of the United States at half-staff on Patriot Day and National Day of Service and Remembrance in honor of the individuals who lost their lives as a result of the terrorist attacks against the United States that occurred on September 11, 2001. I invite the Governors of the United States and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and interested organizations and individuals to join in this observance. I call upon the people of the United States to participate in community service in honor of those our Nation lost, to observe this day with other ceremonies and activities, including remembrance services, and to observe a moment of silence beginning at 8:46 a.m. eastern daylight time to honor the innocent victims who perished as a result of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001."

    A press release from www.nationalservice.gov states that "the first officially-designated September 11 National Day of Service and Remembrance will be marked by service projects in all 50 states, with tens of thousands of volunteers expected to turn out to paint and refurbish homes, run food drives, spruce up schools, reclaim neighborhoods, and support and honor veterans and first responders."
    Volunteer Central, a program of Business Unlimited Maryland, is a resource in Baltimore for recruiting and organizing volunteers. It has accepted the President's 9/11 Call to Service and Remembrance. Volunteer Central is working with several local nonprofits to provide service opportunities in Baltimore for anyone wishing to stand united in service as a way of remembering the thousands of lost lives on September 11, 2001. "Remember AND Serve! Visit www.VolunteerCentral.net to find ways to give back on 9.11 or any other day! Be the change you want to see," said Volunteer Central's Volunteer Engagement Coordinator, Candace Baker, on her Facebook page.

    The following is an abbreviated list of planned service opportunities in Baltimore scheduled today (9/11) :
    • Habitat for Humanity (Chesapeake)- Help build a house for someone in need! Habitat for Humanity of the Chesapeake is a non-profit housing developer that works in partnership with people in need to build simple, decent and affordable houses. There are other volunteer opportunities available as well. Contact Desiree Wingo, ([email protected], (410) 366-1250/ext. 128) for more information.

    • Sarah’s Hope- Call your family and friends to the kitchen to prepare a casserole, bake sweets, or bag some lunches for homeless women and children. Sarah’s Hope accepts donated food 7 days a week. Other opportunities are available as well. Contact Connor Wall ([email protected], (410) 396-2204) for more information.

    • Maryland Food Bank- Help sort and package donated food to be delivered to local nonprofit organizations that feed the hungry. This is a great opportunity for an individual as well as a group. Contact Vanessa Reed ([email protected], (410) 737-8282/ext. 232) for more information.

    • Herring Run Watershed Association –Help improve the environmental quality of the Herring Run watershed for the mutual benefit of its community and the Chesapeake Bay through on the ground action such as: tree plantings, rain garden creation, water monitoring, and invasive-non-native plant removal. Contact Ashley Traut ([email protected], (410) 254-1577/ext 103) for more information.

    • International Book Bank- All for education? Help sort hundreds of donated books for children all over the world with International Book Bank (IBB). IBB helps increase literacy and advance education by obtaining and shipping books and other educational materials to developing countries. Contact Valerie Staats ([email protected], (410) 685-2665) for more information.

    • Moveable Feast- Volunteer with an agency that prepares and delivers nutritious meals and groceries to individuals and their families - those in need and living with HIV/AIDS and other life-challenging conditions. Help sort donated food or stuff grocery bags. Contact Tom Patrick ([email protected], (410) 327-3420/ext. 31) for more information.

    • Tree Baltimore- Go green! Plant trees in different areas in Baltimore City to help improve the environment and join others in working toward building a sustainable urban forest. Contact Anne Draddy ([email protected], (443) 984-4058) for more information.

  11. #43
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Good on the president. Too bad though that he's proposing to cap income tax deductions for the better off among us for charitable deductions thus reducing the amount of money many charities will receive while fattening the coffers of the state.

  12. #44
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    President Bush?

    People commenting on a blog?

    These are your examples of Christian terrorism?

    I rest my case... lololololololololol

    .

  13. #45
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.
    I found this so far. If this is accurate you seem to be correct. I don't know the numbers killed by Islam fundamentalists in a year. Though I found this about the Spanish Inquisition.

    Source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_p...he_Inquisition

    The number of people who died in the various inquistions across Europe are difficult to determine, but the number of victims can be numbered in the thousands, not the millions as a previous respondent stated. The entire populations of Europe would have been wiped out if inquisitors had killed in those numbers! For example, the Spanish Inquisition, assuredly the most vigorous and corrupt of the various inquisitorial bodies that existed in Europe, held 49,000 trials between 1560-1700 and executed between 3 and 5,000 people. I suggest that the read Edward Peter's Inquisition for the most up to date analysis of the topic, including the myths that have arisen surrounding the inquisitions. Correction The Spanish Inquistition was state ministry, not papal organization. Blaming Popes for deeds of Spanish Inquistition is incorrect. However kings of Spain used Dominicans (catholic order) as judges etc. because clergy (especially mentioned monks) were genarally far more educated than ordinal people. Breif Answer: Talking of 'the inquisition' probably refers to the whole thing ie 'retake' of land for christians and murderous rampage against heretics. It was started by Pope lucius III when he issued a bill against heretic- and the violent mesures against them. It is strongly thought by those who thouroughly study the inquisition that the death toll is indeed in the millions. Which is ofcourse denied by Christian leaders and followers. After some thought, I'm leaving the last two contributors' responses here to give those interested some idea of the flavor of the controversy. Firstly, it is correct to state that the Spanish Inquisition was a state ministry, but that doesn't remove it from the category of "inquisition." It was authorized by the papacy and thereafter used by monarchs on the Iberian peninsula beginning with Ferdinand and Isabella as the only institution at their disposal that operated across the boundaries of the twin crowns of Aragon and Castille. Many inquisitions functioned in conjunction with secular authorities, such as in 15th century Florence. And needless to say the Roman inquisition functioned under the direct management and control of the Pope, who WAS the secular (as well as spiritual) authority in the city of Rome and the Papal States. All of this simply goes toward explaining why it makes no sense to think of a single inquisition, rather than muliple inquisitions. Again, if you are truly interested in the subject, read Edward Peters or Richard Kieckhefer.
    As for how many deaths may be attributed to the various inquisitorial bodies, I'm not certain who the previous contributor refers to when he states that "those who thoroughly study the inquisition" agree that the death toll was in the millions, but he or she is quite wrong on multiple levels. I am unaware of any modern historian who would accept such ridiculous numbers and it has nothing to do with whether or not they are Christian. Again, for a general treatment of the various inquisitions, read Edward Peters' Inquistions, and for a more specialized treatment turn to Richard Kieckhefer's Repression of Heresy in Medieval Germany. Finally, the previous contributor was correct in pointing to the papal bull of 1184, ab abolendam, which Pope Lucius III did indeed issue the year before his death, as the beginning of the papal inquisition, but episcopal inquisitions had existed prior to this, and indeed the first time heretics were burned was at Orleans in 1022. And again, even with the establishment of the papal inquisition, various judge legates, which is what individual inquisitors were, pursued their duties in differing ways and with differing agendas. In sum, there never was anything one cold refer to as THE inquisition, simply various individual inquisitions.
    MORE: According to Henry Kamen's "The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision" it is very difficult to determine, because if people fled - which they usually did - the Inquisition would burn them in effigy, and make no distinction in their records between whether someone was burned in effigy or in reality. According to Kamen, at the height of the Inquistion, they executed a handful of people per year, and the State of Texas executes more people in a year than the Inquisition did in ten.

  14. #46
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Very interesting....

    I guess that makes it OK, then!


    Isn't the world a wonderful place?



    .
    It doesn't make it okay but it puts it into perspective, something you should work on before you launch off on your diatribes.

  15. #47
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Source: Wikipedia; excerpt, Death Toll in the Spanish Inquistions. Keep in mind that there was also inquistions by the Portugese, Italians, Germans and English.
    These were all virtually conducted under the auspices of the catholic church. Against Jews, Protestant Christians and Muslims as well as atheist, agnostics and other beliefs, such as Hindu and Buddhist.

    Quote: [Wikipedia; for further insight into tortues and execution methods and so on, read the entire article. By the way, this is where the method of "water-boarding" as a torture was initiated.]:

    "Death tolls

    The historian Hernando del Pulgar, contemporary of Ferdinand and Isabella, estimated that the Inquisition had burned at the stake 2,000 people and reconciled another 15,000 by 1490 (just one decade after the Inquisition began).[66]

    Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo Histórico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1540 and 1700. This material provides information on about 44,674 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These 44,674 cases include 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie. This material, however, is far from being complete - for example, the tribunal of Cuenca is entirely omitted, because no relaciones de causas from this tribunal has been found, and significant gaps concern some other tribunals (e.g. Valladolid). Many more cases not reported to Suprema are known from the other sources (e.g. no relaciones de causas from Cuenca has been found, but its original records has been preserved), but were not included in Contreras-Hennigsen's statistics for the methodological reasons.[67] William Monter estimates 1000 executions between 1530-1630 and 250 between 1630-1730.[68]

    The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy.[69] Ricardo Garc*a Cárcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia.[70] These authors' investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras. Henry Kamen gives the number of about 2,000 executions in persona in the whole Spain up to 1530.[71]

    Garc*a Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700—about 2%—the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and Garc*a Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.

    However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, and owing to the gaps in documentation, it is unlikely that the exact number will ever be known."

    This done to preserve the Catholic Church as the only and true religion.
    Vasudeva

  16. #48
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    Re: 9/11 anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Perspective?

    Who cares which religion is worse, Roo?
    Here's a bit of perspective for ya!

    What difference does it make if one religion has killed 10,000,000 people and the other has only killed 1?

    The point is Religion kills!
    .
    Gazza, because with most on this board, it's always about "Them" and "Us". Someone always has to be the "bad guy" and we are of course, always the "good guy". That's the way isn't it? Our own little slate is always magically erased, don't you know. lol Then there is always, "Christians Rule" and every other religion on the planet "sucks". There is no room for the good and bad in both, let alone, that man made religion in general, actually sucks.
    Last edited by put it out there baby; 09-13-2009 at 02:06 PM.

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