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  1. #1
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    Serious Healthcare discussion

    Ok, by my nature I am more conservative. However I do believe a national healthcare plan of some sort is in order.

    What I'd like this thread to become is a discussion of certain options changes we'd like to see happen. Not necessarily to Obama's current plan, rather in general. What should a healthcare plan actually include/exclude.

    I think we need one because the working poor certainly can't afford it. And DChristie made a good argument with me a while back...I'd rather uncle sammy spend the money on something in our own borders...on something that is at least an attempt at something constructive and helpful as opposed to what appears to be an imperealistic foreign policy. To hell with the rest of the world...let's fix our own problems here.

    First and foremost I think there need to be some significant cost reductions to healthcare in general. A national plan will fail without that...

    I think we need to address the pharmaceutical industry.
    -advertising should be banned.
    -lobbiest should be banned.
    -pharma reps should be severly limited in what their role is. It should be education only. Teach the doctors about new drugs, uses, issues, etc. Nothing more. No lunches, dinners, pens, etc. None of that crap.
    Those three things will save the drug companies tons to reinvest in R&D.
    Then we also need to change patent laws so the drug companies don't have to worry about generics quite so early. Gives them a little more time to recoup their investment. Thus lowering prices.
    We'd also need to negotiate lower prices at a national level. It would be idiotic to not use economies of scale in this manner.

    I think there needs to be tort reform.
    Doctors are human and make mistakes. There need to be limits on what people can recoup. Don't get me wrong, if a doctor amputates a leg instead of removing a cyst, the person should obviously be compensated. But there have to be limits. Doctors expenses are too high...especially if their income gets capped.

    I think there should be certain income levels covered. So if you make under a certain threshold you are covered no matter what (ie single under $30K/year) If you make between certain thresholds you get the choice. (30-50k/yr) If you make over a certain amount, you aren't eligable. Make the thresholds pretty easy.

    I think unhealthy people need to pay extra. I don't think that's discrimination, I think it simply makes sense. If you are obese, or a drunk, or a drug user...you do not deserve the same health coverage as a person who takes care of themselves. It isn't that you shouldn't be helped...you should just have to pay extra for it. It isn't my fault you eat McDonalds for dinner every day...you made your choices, now you pay for them.
    As part of this...if you are in an accident because you are drunk...that's an automatic DNR.
    If you're overdosing on coke or meth...automatice DNR.
    If you're a smoker and have lung cancer...DNR.

    Those types of things should not be a drain on the rest of soceity. If you are sick through no fault of your own...you should get coverage.

    I don't think medical coverage should be witheld because of a pre-existing condition or age. Only because of stupid choices. It's called personal responsibility.

    That's all I have for now. What else would you guys add/subtract? Or do you completely disagree with a national plan of any kind...why?

    Personally I doubt uncle sammy can run this type of program properly...but I digress.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  2. #2
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Obesity is considered a disease to give it special penalties could be considered illegal, even if one considers it a choice there are psychological factors that could make it a disease. Similar to any other serious addiction.

    That said there is one group we must cover the poor including the homeless, unemployed and working poor people who are low income. Medicaid or a program like it is vital one homeless person with a medical problem is a timebomb of costs, one working poor person untreated is a timebomb of costs and asking them to PAY for insureance is insane. I ,for example, work at earn at the poverty line when I can get work now and have after my expenses living modestly $50 a month left over. If that this month I had $34 left over. How am I supposed to pay for health care, co-pays and deductibles with pre-exisitng conditions. So you want to make a dent cover people like me I have diabetes, several problems related to that including retrinopothy (can cause blindness) and neuropolthy (nerve damage) and am prone to infections. If I end up going blind, losing a limb or getting a hard to treat infection that leads to losing a limb guess who will pay. Its not me it people that pay the extra costs in other words people like you. If I go on dialysis due to renal failure then your talking thousands of dollars in care. Consider treating the poor cost effective maybe then people will get it preventative care and that can include seeing a nutritionist for help where needed is a good thing. It keep these complications at bay, lets me work and be proud to work and not have to be a burden on you and eases suffering from treatable considitions. If your religious all three of the major faiths honor aiding the poor and to show compassion. If your not do people not have a heart do you want the poor to suffer? We spend more than any other nation surely we can do better with the money spent and cover everyone at least those in need.

    I watched Sicko and I'm not fond of Moore but when they were tossing poor sick people onto the street from the LA hospitals he made a good point. What kind of people are we? I like to think we are a great nation and if so how we treat our poor and needy should elevate that.

    I have one thing we should do first that is find out how much money there is, where the unisured are that need the help are like me and how much every side can pay out of pocket. Then and only then work on reform and a new approach to health care.

    I would like to see at least Medicaid be strictly needs based and the level to get it be a bit higher. So the most poor are covered that would save money I'm sure in the long run.

  3. #3
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers View Post
    Obesity is considered a disease to give it special penalties could be considered illegal, even if one considers it a choice there are psychological factors that could make it a disease. Similar to any other serious addiction.

    That said there is one group we must cover the poor including the homeless, unemployed and working poor people who are low income. Medicaid or a program like it is vital one homeless person with a medical problem is a timebomb of costs, one working poor person untreated is a timebomb of costs and asking them to PAY for insureance is insane. I ,for example, work at earn at the poverty line when I can get work now and have after my expenses living modestly $50 a month left over. If that this month I had $34 left over. How am I supposed to pay for health care, co-pays and deductibles with pre-exisitng conditions. So you want to make a dent cover people like me I have diabetes, several problems related to that including retrinopothy (can cause blindness) and neuropolthy (nerve damage) and am prone to infections. If I end up going blind, losing a limb or getting a hard to treat infection that leads to losing a limb guess who will pay. Its not me it people that pay the extra costs in other words people like you. If I go on dialysis due to renal failure then your talking thousands of dollars in care. Consider treating the poor cost effective maybe then people will get it preventative care and that can include seeing a nutritionist for help where needed is a good thing. It keep these complications at bay, lets me work and be proud to work and not have to be a burden on you and eases suffering from treatable considitions. If your religious all three of the major faiths honor aiding the poor and to show compassion. If your not do people not have a heart do you want the poor to suffer? We spend more than any other nation surely we can do better with the money spent and cover everyone at least those in need.

    I watched Sicko and I'm not fond of Moore but when they were tossing poor sick people onto the street from the LA hospitals he made a good point. What kind of people are we? I like to think we are a great nation and if so how we treat our poor and needy should elevate that.

    I have one thing we should do first that is find out how much money there is, where the unisured are that need the help are like me and how much every side can pay out of pocket. Then and only then work on reform and a new approach to health care.

    I would like to see at least Medicaid be strictly needs based and the level to get it be a bit higher. So the most poor are covered that would save money I'm sure in the long run.

    Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, but in my "plan" you would be covered. If you make under a certain threshold you're covered...I think homeless folks make under the threshold as do the working poor.
    I also think there need to be better programs to assist homeless and poor get back on their feet.

    And if you're homeless and choose to "not get back on your feet" or simply refuse to try to find work of some kind...then you lose coverage.

    I have a no leech policy.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  4. #4
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    And another thing. There needs to be a much bigger focus on health and wellness instead of simply treating an illness.

    By the time you're sick...it's too late. Why aren't basic preventative measures covered?
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  5. #5
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jreed View Post
    And another thing. There needs to be a much bigger focus on health and wellness instead of simply treating an illness.

    By the time you're sick...it's too late. Why aren't basic preventative measures covered?
    I voting for you in 2012. You need to run for office. I also am a believer in individual wellness care. Even low income folks can do a better job of food choice than grabbing hamburger helper(ugg.read the label). It may be cheap and fast but its going to kill eventually.

    You know how I feel about the pharmaceutical companies so enough said about them. I also agree on the tort reform. We can't risk losing doctors... some mistakes just can't be helped. The really bad ones will get weeded out.

    I really do agee with you on all the points you have raised.
    Last edited by peregrine; 08-26-2009 at 12:16 PM.
    I'd rather have roses on my table than diamonds on my neck. ~Emma Goldman

  6. #6
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jreed View Post
    Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, but in my "plan" you would be covered. If you make under a certain threshold you're covered...I think homeless folks make under the threshold as do the working poor.
    I also think there need to be better programs to assist homeless and poor get back on their feet.

    And if you're homeless and choose to "not get back on your feet" or simply refuse to try to find work of some kind...then you lose coverage.

    I have a no leech policy.
    I agree actually even a homeless person should earn money or be productive but many do work. Day labor is done by many in my area its just not everyday or reliable but they work. I can respect that. And if they are on SSI or a veteran they are not leeches either they get money and clearly are disabled or in need. Say waht you want but getting SSI demands you be pretty well proven unable to be employed full-time. That is one thing I would change let people who are disabled work and access SSI and other aid even a part-time job if that is all someone can do is honest work and makes them productive.

    I'm just concerned many of the ideas ignore the people that really cost. I know the swine flu shot I won't get its not lack of desire its two shot and they cost likely together $60 or more. I can't really afford that. But I do wash my hands alot, avoid people that are ill and try to stay healthy. But if this breaks out hard its going to be bad on the poorest and a major problem. If someone is a drug addict why not get them help to get clean needles and see a doctor to help avoid a disease? I'm realistic its best to stop them from doing heroine but if not then minimize the risk of a major illness.

    But we must be humane and practical if poor people work they should pay something similar to medicaid. If someone sees a doctor one must pay a few dollars or to get a prescription filled pay a few dollars that is good. But the costs must be fair and let people use the system reasonably.

  7. #7
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jreed View Post
    Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, but in my "plan" you would be covered. If you make under a certain threshold you're covered...I think homeless folks make under the threshold as do the working poor.
    I also think there need to be better programs to assist homeless and poor get back on their feet.

    And if you're homeless and choose to "not get back on your feet" or simply refuse to try to find work of some kind...then you lose coverage.

    I have a no leech policy.
    I should also add...being fat is not a disease.

    It was classified that way for the sole purpose of allowing the pharmaceutical industry to create and patent drugs. Nor is it an addiction...it is a series of bad decisions. In some rare instances there are medical concerns like hyper-thyroidism. That is actually a medical condition where as being overweight is not.

    Exercise and eat properly. If that is the solution to your problem...chances are excellent you don't have a real disease.

    It may be your god-given right to be a fat lazy piece of shit...it is not your god given right to leech off of soceity's hard work because you're a fat lazy piece of shit. :2gunsfiring_v1:
    Under my plan obese people with medical issues related to their fatness would have to help pay for their care and medications.

    Ever watch the Biggest Loser...ever notice how all the fat people on diabetes and heart meds suddenly don't need them or far less when they lose the weight? That isn't a magic trick.

    We all know that eating like crap all the time will kill us. I'm just making sure people face the consequences of their own actions. And I am being un-politically correct on purpose.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  8. #8
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    First things first. How do you stop drug companies who are in the pockets of the lawmakers? Money talks and greed rules. How do you think your going to compete with them and get lawmakers attention? With logic? That will never work.

  9. #9
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    First things first. How do you stop drug companies who are in the pockets of the lawmakers? Money talks and greed rules. How do you think your going to compete with them and get lawmakers attention? With logic? That will never work.
    That's not really the point of the thread.

    The point is what would you include or not include. I agree that pharma reform is important in controlling costs. Weather or not that is possible given our current restraints is a seperate discussion.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  10. #10
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    part of the condition of being a drug addict is buying the drug first therefor you cannot charge them more for health insurance because they aren't going to pay for health insurance. they only pay for drugs. if working won't get them enough money, then they will steal.

    fat is a mental health issue like being gay. it doesn't matter how much you spend you don't cure fat or gay. so, no, i don't wanna pay madatory insurance premium to help fat people pretend their problem is over-active thyroid and i don't want to pay for counseling to keep gay marriages together.

    the really big stuff, like organ transplants, i say, are just for the rich. i can't afford it and it would be fair for me to make all my poor neighbors chip in and pay for my expensive operation.

    the small stuff like an office visit can be paid out of pocket. oh, poor thing, can't pay $25? you pay for everything else? if alcohol costs $25 a day, no problem. donuts at $4 a box, no problem.

    we need to stop pretending that healthcare provided by employers is free. it has a cost. more people could be hired, at a higher rate of pay if the employer didn't have to pay insurance or also payroll taxes.

    payroll taxes is another place you think you are getting something for free, but not. whatever the employer pay is made up by lower wages and higher prices.
    Last edited by mumbles; 08-26-2009 at 02:16 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    part of the condition of being a drug addict is buing the drug first therefor you cannot charge them more for health insurance because they aren't going to pay for health insurance. they only pay for drugs. if working won't get them enough money, then they will steal.

    fat is a mental health issue like being gay. it doesn't matter how much you spend you don't cure fat or gay. so, no, i don't wanna pay madatory insurance premium to help fat people pretend their problem is over-active thyroid and i don't want to pay for counseling to keep gay marriages together.

    the really big stuff, like organ transplants, i say, are just for the rich. i can't afford it and it would be fair for me to make all my poor neighbors chip in and pay for my expensive operation.

    the small stuff like an office visit can be paid out of pocket. oh, poor thing, can't pay $25? you pay for everything else? if alcohol costs $25 a day, no problem. donuts at $4 a box, no problem.

    we need to stop pretending that healthcare provided by employers is free. it has a cost. more people could be hired, at a higher rate of pay if the employer didn't have to pay insurance or also payroll taxes.

    payroll taxes is another place you think you are getting something for free, but not. whatever the employer pay is made up by lower wages and higher prices.
    How about giving me the name of your doctor..$25.00 for an office visit???? I don't think so. When I leave my doctors I have a bill for at least $90.00.
    I'd rather have roses on my table than diamonds on my neck. ~Emma Goldman

  12. #12
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    part of the condition of being a drug addict is buing the drug first therefor you cannot charge them more for health insurance because they aren't going to pay for health insurance. they only pay for drugs. if working won't get them enough money, then they will steal.

    fat is a mental health issue like being gay. it doesn't matter how much you spend you don't cure fat or gay. so, no, i don't wanna pay madatory insurance premium to help fat people pretend their problem is over-active thyroid and i don't want to pay for counseling to keep gay marriages together.

    the really big stuff, like organ transplants, i say, are just for the rich. i can't afford it and it would be fair for me to make all my poor neighbors chip in and pay for my expensive operation.

    the small stuff like an office visit can be paid out of pocket. oh, poor thing, can't pay $25? you pay for everything else? if alcohol costs $25 a day, no problem. donuts at $4 a box, no problem.

    we need to stop pretending that healthcare provided by employers is free. it has a cost. more people could be hired, at a higher rate of pay if the employer didn't have to pay insurance or also payroll taxes.

    payroll taxes is another place you think you are getting something for free, but not. whatever the employer pay is made up by lower wages and higher prices.
    Being fat is not a mental health issue either. Being fat is caused by eating too much and working out too little. there are direct cause/effect relationships between calories consumed/burned to your weight. Simple math.

    Put down the doughnut and slowly back away.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

  13. #13
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    a person who is not fat also eats too much, but at some point, they say to themselves, got to cut back, eat less for a couple weeks, lose a few pounds. for fat people, its an addiction, like a drug, they have to overeat as a way of making themselves less unhappy. they will rationalize it any way they have to, claim all sorts of medical problems are the cause, but its in their own head.

    there are lots of addictions. gambling and sex, too. there aren't any medical cures for these things but that doesn't stop people from wanting to get paid big bucks to counsel these people. they want me to pay the big bucks, of course, out of my pay, thru taxes and forced insurance.

    i already pay to feed their kids and keep them off the street while the baby-daddy is buying shiny chrome wheels and big screen Tv's. at some point, we have to say its too much and each individual has to take the consequences for their own decisions.

    $25 office visit is out of date, i guess. i don't go to doctor because i am able to maintain my health without medications, for now. we could have a system that pays half the cost of the office visit, so for $90, you would pay $45. this would cut out some of the people that shouldn't be wasting the doctor's time trying to get a cure for a cold.

    we need to get our priorities lined up. why do we pay a basketball player $20 million when we could pay him $1 million and use the other $19 million to pay doctors to run a low cost clinic for all the people in his old neighborhood?
    Last edited by mumbles; 08-26-2009 at 03:01 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Your right. You should help people before they become a drain on society. Before they get too poor to help there kids, prevent single instances of health from bankrupting them. Get them a great education. Do effective drug, alchol and sex education opposed to the proven ineffective stuff done now.

    Heck you could save billions by preventing things before they happen.

  15. #15
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    i can't help people. they already know what they want, which is alcohol or drugs, and now they just have to try everyday to get it.

    public school is a good example of waste healthcare money. teachers, young female, in particular, cannot control their class. a proper solution would be to have the coach take the boys for a run around the field until they are tired. but we can't do that because maybe coach likes boys too much or some parent will sue saying running is too severe punishment for acting wild in class. so all the boy have to be on ritalin. this isn't free, but now the class is quiet so the teacher can continue to bore them with her lack of knowledge about the subject she is teaching.

    the teacher still feels depressed so she insists her doctor keep her supplied with prozac, valium, or whatever to make her sad little life happier. the taxpayers have to pay for her doctor visits and since, instead of an receiving education, she was indoctrinated by socialist professors, she believes that everbody is entitled to free healthcare, like hers, just by being born.

    so there ya go, two more ways to save on healthcare, stop the ritalin and stop paying for healthcare for government employees, especially the ones that are too depressed to do their well paid job without use of drugs.

    tort reform is still the best way to cut costs. its not in this law.

  16. #16
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    Re: Serious Healthcare discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    a person who is not fat also eats too much, but at some point, they say to themselves, got to cut back, eat less for a couple weeks, lose a few pounds. for fat people, its an addiction, like a drug, they have to overeat as a way of making themselves less unhappy. they will rationalize it any way they have to, claim all sorts of medical problems are the cause, but its in their own head.

    there are lots of addictions. gambling and sex, too. there aren't any medical cures for these things but that doesn't stop people from wanting to get paid big bucks to counsel these people. they want me to pay the big bucks, of course, out of my pay, thru taxes and forced insurance.

    i already pay to feed their kids and keep them off the street while the baby-daddy is buying shiny chrome wheels and big screen Tv's. at some point, we have to say its too much and each individual has to take the consequences for their own decisions.

    $25 office visit is out of date, i guess. i don't go to doctor because i am able to maintain my health without medications, for now. we could have a system that pays half the cost of the office visit, so for $90, you would pay $45. this would cut out some of the people that shouldn't be wasting the doctor's time trying to get a cure for a cold.

    we need to get our priorities lined up. why do we pay a basketball player $20 million when we could pay him $1 million and use the other $19 million to pay doctors to run a low cost clinic for all the people in his old neighborhood?
    There is no such thing as a food, sex, or gambling addiction. That's just people making excuses for their poor decision making and soceities need to help their poor self esteems.

    Under my administration there will be personal responsibility.

    As far as I am aware these things do not have addictive properties They are not cocain. Hell, I am more inclined to forgive a smoker because we know they are addictive. Chocolate cake is not addictive. Betting on the ponies is not addictive. Getting laid is not addictive...well. umm. errr. let me rethink this...umm. No I am right. Sex is not addictive.

    Ever notice how these "sex addicts" tend to be the same people that cheated and got caught. Now they are in "rehab" for an addiction so their sig. other can forgive them. Its bullshit smoke and mirrors.

    There is nothing mentally wrong with these people. They simply made bad choices and found a great excuse to use. These excuses are not valid under my health plan. :-)

    As for drug addicts...please note that I didn't just say they have to pay for their care.....I said they get an automatic DNR. DNR = Do Not Resuscitate. To put it as clearly as possible...they'll die. Drug users don't tend to lead real healthy lives...and should the OD...Oh Well.

    We certainly can't stop people from using. The "war on drugs" has proven that. But we don't have to allow them to be a drain on soceity. And the little bonus is that they won't create any crack babies when they are dead. another cost savings right there.

    I have to add...I have a real problem with illegals getting free healthcare.

    I agree...the ball players can give up some cash for the greater good. Most of them are douchebags anyway.
    Last edited by Jreed; 08-26-2009 at 05:17 PM.
    "Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid."
    -John Wayne

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