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  1. #1
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    Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Admittedly this should probably go under science controversy. However, I think we've all heard a lot on that subject already. Perhaps a different approach is needed and a different point of view.



    Lately Iíve seen many discussions on Evolution and the proposed flaws of the theory. Those who agree with the theory understand that it isnít perfection but it is still an excellent theory more than any other theory.

    Those who disagree are happy to point out the known flaws but do not wish to discuss the alternative. I want to discuss the alternatives.

    Iím willing to admit, I donít know everything however from what Iíve read from the I.D. and creationism camp.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Institute
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/
    http://www.drdino.com/speaker.php?s=1
    http://erichovind.blogspot.com/
    http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/


    and the anti- I.D. Creationism Camp.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
    http://richarddawkins.net/
    http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxw3wkOuCys

    Watched material on the Dover trial. The big precedent setting trial on teaching I.D.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

    After all of this Iím left confounded. I just donít get it. Iíve read the material that the supporters put out and Iím left confused on how they made there arguments. Most appear to be appeals to emotion, threats of wrath, and far reaching magical leaps in logic, coupled with colorful graphics and a vastly politically based agenda.

    I look at the Supporters and I see, appeals to reason, cited sources, and eloquent language.


    Perhaps someone who agrees with I.D. and Creationism can explain it too me better or provide me a better source.

    I know what the evolution supporters say, however, Iíd love to hear what and I.D. Creationist says on the matter.

    I think a conversation without political motivation or dogma might be interesting on the subject.

  2. #2
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    i think there's as much chance of that happening on a scam forum as there is of finding d.b. cooper after all these years.

    your patience with barak zero is laudable. all the geniuses i've ever met have been a whole lot more humble and self-effacing, much less redundant and certainly far more worthy of attention. let me apologize in advance if that brings him swooping in here with his flame thrower.

    i too am confounded by this I.D. theorem but for different reasons. i am a practicing hebrew-israelite with a degree in biochemistry, thoroughly fed up with the whole creationism vs. evolution debate. you may have noticed my conclusion posted previously elsewhere.

    it's been 30 years since i graduated college and the theory didn't exist then. it's been over 20 since i got tossed out and forced to sleep in the bushes by the bushwhackers of our nation. i wasn't aware of the theory until after Y2K and i started prowling the internet more regularly than when i was living on the road.

    do you know who first published the term and thesis? is the source a scientific or religious writer?

  3. #3
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Intelligent Design suffers from one fatal flaw (well many actually but, this one stands out) that is, the assumption that design proves a Creator.

    There is no science that can test or vaidate that assumption so, when it comes down to a decision...it's a blind leap of faith.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Admittedly, I've not spent a lot of time studying ID, but watched a couple documentaries and read a few articles.
    It was my feeling during those brief educational moments that ID is an attempt at creating a paradox that pointed the listener or reader to parallels between our genetic encoding and how we create machines.

    Basically, that there are organisms that have structures that are similar to equipment that humans have invented...Therefore, it must have been an intelligent being that encoded all that into us. Or something like that.

    I am wary of people who purposely create circular arguments. We have enough of those to deal with already.

    But my education on the subject is limited. It seems to me that God would have no motivation for creating "Standarization In Design".

    Evolution has some virtue, in that you can see genetic adjustments within species in the here and now, and draw conclusions about development over large time expanses. To me, its fundamental problem deals with the origin of life itself....In the Beginning.
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Intelligent Design suffers from one fatal flaw (well many actually but, this one stands out) that is, the assumption that design proves a Creator.

    There is no science that can test or vaidate that assumption so, when it comes down to a decision...it's a blind leap of faith.
    The biggest flaw I see with I.D. is the fact that it does not actually explain what or who the designer/creator was. Since the I.D. theory cannot explain itself it really can't explain much of anything at all. Yeah, I kinda stole that quote.

  6. #6
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Basically, that there are organisms that have structures that are similar to equipment that humans have invented...Therefore, it must have been an intelligent being that encoded all that into us. Or something like that.


    it's been way too long since taking LOGIC 332 for me to recall the name for that fallacy, but that's a chicken before the egg view if i've ever seen one.

    a lot of the equipment was designed to emulate the structures we observed in nature.

  7. #7
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Those who disagree are happy to point out the known flaws but do not wish to discuss the alternative. I want to discuss the alternatives.
    What could the alternative be?

    I.D. is Creationism repackaged. The I.D. people cannot even come up with a working theory.

    "God did it" is not an answer.

    I know what the evolution supporters say, however, Iíd love to hear what and I.D. Creationist says on the matter.

    I think a conversation without political motivation or dogma might be interesting on the subject.
    It would be nice to have a purely scientific discussion about I.D., but you can not. I.D. is not scientific, it is a political strategy to satisfy the christian base. So the ignorant can teach their kids that 'evolution is evil, besides, it's just a theory!'.

    Here is what ID basically boils down to. Crap. That's it. A pitiful attempt to retard human understanding and it's struggle towards a better future.

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by svcguyhv View Post
    What could the alternative be?

    I.D. is Creationism repackaged. The I.D. people cannot even come up with a working theory.

    "God did it" is not an answer.

    It would be nice to have a purely scientific discussion about I.D., but you can not. I.D. is not scientific, it is a political strategy to satisfy the christian base. So the ignorant can teach their kids that 'evolution is evil, besides, it's just a theory!'.

    Here is what ID basically boils down to. Crap. That's it. A pitiful attempt to retard human understanding and it's struggle towards a better future.
    Hows that better future working out for you anyways?

  9. #9
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Hows that better future working out for you anyways?
    With respect Terry why are you throwing this opertunity away.

    I have specifically asked for your opinion on something. Something that you feel very strongly about and I've done so without insulting you and 90% of all the comments here are actually interested.

    Now I could make a simple statment on how you provided pages of information on Evolution but can't spare more than a single sentence for your own theories.

    However, that would be too simple. I welcome you to provide your well thought out opinion.

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spector567 View Post
    With respect Terry why are you throwing this opertunity away.

    I have specifically asked for your opinion on something. Something that you feel very strongly about and I've done so without insulting you and 90% of all the comments here are actually interested.

    Now I could make a simple statment on how you provided pages of information on Evolution but can't spare more than a single sentence for your own theories.

    However, that would be too simple. I welcome you to provide your well thought out opinion.
    please, this road has been travel down a thousand times with no positive results. I will not waste my time or energy on it again. My comment was not directed toward you at all, it was to another post that I qouted.

  11. #11
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    please, this road has been travel down a thousand times with no positive results. I will not waste my time or energy on it again. My comment was not directed toward you at all, it was to another post that I qouted.
    So in short what your saying is the dozen or so threads that you created and posted in regarding evolution. Your insults, circular reasoning and general disreguard for reasonable conversation. Was not a waste of your time.

    However, should you be asked to explain what you believe in a resonably intelligent manner. it's a waste of your time....

    Now you know how we feel.

    It appears that Terry will not be standing up for what he believes in today. He will be sitting this one out.

  12. #12
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spector567 View Post
    So in short what your saying is the dozen or so threads that you created and posted in regarding evolution. Your insults, circular reasoning and general disreguard for reasonable conversation. Was not a waste of your time.

    However, should you be asked to explain what you believe in a resonably intelligent manner. it's a waste of your time....

    Now you know how we feel.

    It appears that Terry will not be standing up for what he believes in today. He will be sitting this one out.
    Oh ok, sorry I issed that. Could you show me maybe just one thread hat I startd on evolution?

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    I would easily entertain idea that there could be some kind of aliens that encoded/created DNA from which life of on earth was created. I will take that assumption. Than logically those aliens must have been created or evolved at some point. If they evolved, theory of evolution holds. If they were created like we supposedly are, somebody created creators. And again we have two options. Who created creators of creators or did they evolve? You can see logic of my argument. At some point, even if it took thousands of creator races, after big bang, some initial race of intelligent beings(creators) must have evolved.

  14. #14
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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Oh ok, sorry I issed that. Could you show me maybe just one thread hat I startd on evolution?
    Actually I'm willing to admit my error.

    I thought you were TerryP. I apoligize for the case of mystaken Identity.

    However, I do find it interesting that TerryP, zero and many others that are famous for anti-evolution threads have not made an appearence yet.

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Hows that better future working out for you anyways?
    Well, the question you ask required that I have a comparison. There is none to have. Unless you have access to parallel universes.

    Although, shedding gods and superstition for working theories and science has been far better.

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    Re: Intelligent Design,/The Alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
    I would easily entertain idea that there could be some kind of aliens that encoded/created DNA from which life of on earth was created. I will take that assumption.
    I think that if what you suggest were true, I think that there would be some evidence. Maybe this is evidence that we are unable to detect, or quantify into a 'pointer' or something that is unusual, but occurs in most things here on this planet.

    I think he coding of DNA or 'information' is a label that we as humans put on things so that we can understand them. This does not mean, though I think, that something else created this information for us to detect, because we created the language, we followed the patterns, and we made it understandable to ourselves.

    Creationist have latched onto this 'information' idea because it was easy to hi-jack and sell to easily fed people.

    Take rain. Rain comes down in bands. We recognize the patters and we call them rain bands. There is no information creating the rain bands, it is just how we perceive a common phenom. We as a cognitive beings look for patterns and attempt to understand them, take apart and use that 'information' to make predictions or figure out how things work.

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