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  1. #1
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    Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Excellent article. It should cause atheists and agnostics to gnash their yellow teeth, all three of them.

    ==================


    Graduates Recite The Lord’s Prayer Despite ACLU Ban

    By Julia Foster
    Nearly 400 graduating seniors at Pace High School in Santa Rosa County, Fla. stood up in protest against the ACLU and recited the Lord’s Prayer during their graduation ceremony on Saturday. Many painted crosses on their graduation caps to make a statement of faith. This event follows a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion. Liberty Counsel, a law firm represents Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and schoolteacher Michelle Winkler.

    The protest was preceded by a lawsuit filed six months ago by the ACLU. The school district entered into a consent decree, which essentially bans all Santa Rosa County School District employees from engaging in prayer or religious activities. The ACLU alleges that during a dinner event held at Pace High School, Lay asked the athletic director to bless the meal.

    The ACLU also alleges that Michelle Winkler’s husband, who is not a school board employee, offered prayer at an awards ceremony. Leading up to the graduation ceremony, the ACLU demanded the school stop students from offering prayers or saying anything religious. The ACLU then charged Lay and Mrs. Winkler with contempt of court.

    The students were furious with the ACLU for hijacking their free speech rights and decided to take a stand at graduation. As soon as Lay asked everyone to be seated at the ceremony, the graduating class remained standing and recited the Lord’s Prayer. The ACLU has not taken any legal action yet.

    Mathew D. Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel and dean of Liberty University School of Law, commented:

    “Neither students nor teachers shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. The students at Pace High School refused to remain silent and were not about to be bullied by the ACLU. We have decided to represent faculty, staff and students of Pace High School, because the ACLU is clearly violating their First Amendment rights. Schools are not religion-free zones, and any attempt to make them so is unconstitutional.”

  2. #2
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    If you couldn't tell, the ban was not overturned. Nice try though, just like the Dover case.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by BarackZero View Post
    [CENTER]
    Excellent article. It should cause atheists and agnostics to gnash their yellow teeth, all three of them.
    Ha..ha..ha. Join us for our daily walk with Jesus and some holier-than-thou judgmentalism with the local Scam.com saint, AsscrackZero.

    Today's sermon is how to brainwash kids to be Godly warriors for Jesus by preachin' good Repudlickin' Family Values like wars based on illegitimate lies, hate mongering, fear, torture, treason and racism.

    Hey Zero, maybe Jesus loves you but the rest of us think you're a low-life, bottom-feeding asshole.



    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-04-2009 at 08:40 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Which part of "Congress shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is misunderstood here? If a private individual, even an employee of a STATE AGENCY (not federal, kids), wants to stand up and exercise religion, the federal government has ZERO authority to stop it. If the ACLU does not approve, then members of said organization can choose not to participate. The "state" has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO PROHIBIT THE CITIZENS' FREE EXERCISE RIGHT.

    Wake up, kids. My right to exercise does NOT abridge your right to NOT exercise. More importantly, your right to not exercise does NOT give right to anyone to abridge my right to exercise.
    CHILDREN of LIBERTY PARTY.
    Peace and prosperity. Liberty or death.

    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    - George Washington

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by diskpanic View Post
    First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    Uh.. This is a public school supported by taxpayers who have the right to expect that kids are educated in a secular curriculum based on reality .. not a farrago of religious fairy tales.

    So, then let's not hear any whining and sniveling about the free exercise of religion when someone wants to set up an Islamic madrassa to teach Sharia Law to kids..shall we?

    Thanks.



    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-05-2009 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    Uh.. This is a public school supported by taxpayers who have the right to expect that kids are educated in a secular curriculum based on reality .. not a farrago of religious fairy tales.
    This is a PUBLIC school supported by PUBLIC TAXES. Thus it is a GOVERNMENT body. Which part of the GOVERNMENT not being able to ABRIDGE the right of the people to exercise their religion do you NOT GET?

    Holy crap.

    So, then let's not hear any whining and sniveling about the free exercise of religion when someone wants to set up an Islamic madrassa to teach Sharia Law to kids..shall we?
    HOLY STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

    You really think you're good at this debate stuff, don't you? Sad, really.

    If someone wants to start a Madrassa, they can. The Constitution specifically protects their right to do so. Please let me know when you're done displaying your absolute lack of understanding of Constitutional law. I have some premium "knuckle dragging" to do.
    CHILDREN of LIBERTY PARTY.
    Peace and prosperity. Liberty or death.

    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    - George Washington

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by diskpanic View Post
    This is a PUBLIC school supported by PUBLIC TAXES. Thus it is a GOVERNMENT body. Which part of the GOVERNMENT not being able to ABRIDGE the right of the people to exercise their religion do you NOT GET?

    Holy crap.



    HOLY STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

    You really think you're good at this debate stuff, don't you? Sad, really.

    If someone wants to start a Madrassa, they can. The Constitution specifically protects their right to do so. Please let me know when you're done displaying your absolute lack of understanding of Constitutional law. I have some premium "knuckle dragging" to do.
    LOL.. Clearly, you enjoy telling yourself that your little brain cells are functioning at peak performance, ....both of them.

    Apparently, you're wrong about that too.

    Have you ever been right about anything? Just curious.

    You're not very good at this; so, let me help you.

    The US Taxpayer's interest in public education is expressed and applied directly through the Board Of Education's endorsement of a prescribed curriculum for all public school students in The United States.

    This is why they don't allow religiously insane whackos to stand up in front of a classroom full of kids and teach creationism as science or that Leprachauns from space created Earth 6000 years ago.

    It's obvious to all - with the exception of those who aren't quite able to keep up with the rest of us - why that's not a very good idea.

    Speaking of a "strawman" argument, it's clear this is your tactic - not mine. What part didn't you get when I specifically averred to the potential for religiously based alternatives, albeit simply not as a compulsory component of the public educational system?

    And the reasons are as obvious as they are acknowledged and established as proper Constitutional Law by The US Supreme Court in a myriad of cases, some of the most notable being Illinois vs. McCollum (1948) and Everson VS Board Of Education (1947).

    In these cases, the court ruled that allowing teachers to come into public schools professing religious doctrine violated the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits The Government from endorsing any particular religion.

    Now, go away.

    Thanks

    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-05-2009 at 07:57 PM.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    LOL

    You are one of those amazingly intelligent people that rush to the "INTARNETZ" and, due to your massive head of leftist intellect, are free from the obligations of philosophical honesty, avoiding things like "ad hominem" and "unsubstantiation" or "causality".

    Clearly, I'm dealing with a MENSA member in you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    The US Taxpayer's interest in public education is expressed and applied directly through the Board Of Education's endorsement of a prescribed curriculum for all public school students in The United States.
    Oooh. Amazing that you missed this, but a "Board of Education" is a STATE LEVEL government agency (not Federal). I assume, of course, that your formidable intelligence was directed at some other issue of great import to our species, so you missed this little fact. Good times.

    This is why they don't allow religiously insane whackos to stand up in front of a classroom full of kids and teach creationism as science or that Leprachauns from space created Earth 6000 years ago.
    Taking this from your little blog item: "This event follows a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion." So there was a "claim" that some of the teachers and administration "endorsed" religion. This doesn't seem to be the same thing as institutional "establishment", so much as "some" of the people endorsed religious practices, which is fine.

    Looking at the case law... (http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...decisions.html, a source you should find palettable), there's no substantive case specifically banning the act of voluntary prayer at school, though there is some lack of clarity on the issue of administrative participation. It appears that the school employees can participate, but they cannot initiate.

    It's obvious to all - with the exception of those who aren't quite able to keep up with the rest of us - why that's not a very good idea.
    Another "strawman" argument. Funny that, with your phenomenal intellect, you missed the creation of yet another strawman. You must be very distracted. While you later actually state case law, you missed Abington v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Now, as I stated earlier, there is case law forbidding institutional endorsement of religion, nowhere does the article you linked specifically accuse the school or board of education such infractions. There's merely a "claim of endorsement" by individuals. Now, was "endorsement" to the point of arranging prayer clubs or active participation? During a meeting, someone that was not associated with the Board of Education did stand up and offer prayer.

    Was this an official sanction of the prayer offered? Was this planned or orchestrated by the Board of Education or school officials? Does it constitute a "state endorsement of religion".

    In these cases, the court ruled that allowing teachers to come into public schools professing religious doctrine violated the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits The Government from endorsing any particular religion.
    Exactly, but in this case, is that what happened?

    Let's practice some reading comprehension skills...

    "This event follows a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion." What is "endorsed religion"? Reading on...

    "The ACLU alleges that during a dinner event held at Pace High School, Lay asked the athletic director to bless the meal."

    Dinner event does not impact learning or the secular function of the school, which is the basis for legal objections for religion in schools. The dinner is obviously outside of school hours, and, thus, voluntary. Now, is this a case that the school offering itself as a venue outside of operating hours is state endorsement?

    "The ACLU also alleges that Michelle Winkler’s husband, who is not a school board employee, offered prayer at an awards ceremony."

    Again, if this was planned or the school had "control of the content", then there is a violation of rulings. If this is not the case, and there was not control by the school, then there's no Constitutional breach.

    "Leading up to the graduation ceremony, the ACLU demanded the school stop students from offering prayers or saying anything religious."

    This is out of hand. The school has no right or authority to stop people from praying if they want to of their own volition. The school cannot sponsor a prayer event, but the school cannot stop a student or body of students from exercising their First Amendment right (that would be abridging).

    Now, go away.
    "Go away." 19 years old.
    Last edited by diskpanic; 07-06-2009 at 10:10 AM.
    CHILDREN of LIBERTY PARTY.
    Peace and prosperity. Liberty or death.

    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    - George Washington

  9. #9
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by diskpanic View Post
    LOL

    You are one of those amazingly intelligent people that rush to the "INTARNETZ" and, due to your massive head of leftist intellect, are free from the obligations of philosophical honesty, avoiding things like "ad hominem" and "unsubstantiation" or "causality".

    Clearly, I'm dealing with a MENSA member in you.
    Not necessarily, but it must seem that way to you. In fact, anybody who's relatively coherent must seem a towering intellect from your level.

    Oooh. Amazing that you missed this, but a "Board of Education" is a STATE LEVEL government agency (not Federal). I assume, of course, that your formidable intelligence was directed at some other issue of great import to our species, so you missed this little fact. Good times.
    Tsk..tsk.. You're the only one who's missing something, dickpanic. And it's not only cognitive reasoning abilities and basic information gathering skills. Let's see if you can come up with a snotty and arrogant response for where the various State Boards Of Education get their funding. Here's a hint: It begins with Department and ends with Education. Let us know when you give up and we'll help you along. Try to follow along, though. I don't have time to give you any pictures.

    Taking this from your little blog item: "This event follows a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion." So there was a "claim" that some of the teachers and administration "endorsed" religion. This doesn't seem to be the same thing as institutional "establishment", so much as "some" of the people endorsed religious practices, which is fine.
    It's not a blog item, dickpanic. My..my how we're having trouble with that one. And it's not about endorsing religion. It's about compelling students through a compulsory legal process to be forced into allotting the time to it that should otherwise be relegated to secular instruction. This isn't that difficult.

    Looking at the case law... (http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...decisions.html, a source you should find palettable),
    Um...It's p a l e t a b l e..., boy wonder.

    there's no substantive case specifically banning the act of voluntary prayer at school, though there is some lack of clarity on the issue of administrative participation. It appears that the school employees can participate, but they cannot initiate.

    Another "strawman" argument. Funny that, with your phenomenal intellect, you missed the creation of yet another strawman. You must be very distracted. While you later actually state case law, you missed Abington v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Now, as I stated earlier, there is case law forbidding institutional endorsement of religion, nowhere does the article you linked specifically accuse the school or board of education such infractions. There's merely a "claim of endorsement" by individuals. Now, was "endorsement" to the point of arranging prayer clubs or active participation? During a meeting, someone that was not associated with the Board of Education did stand up and offer prayer.

    Was this an official sanction of the prayer offered? Was this planned or orchestrated by the Board of Education or school officials? Does it constitute a "state endorsement of religion".

    Exactly, but in this case, is that what happened?

    Let's practice some reading comprehension skills...
    Yes..that's a good idea. You go practice your 4th grade reading comprehension skills. That's probably more productive than coming here to blow smoke up your own ass.

    "This event follows a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion." What is "endorsed religion"? Reading on...

    "The ACLU alleges that during a dinner event held at Pace High School, Lay asked the athletic director to bless the meal."

    Dinner event does not impact learning or the secular function of the school, which is the basis for legal objections for religion in schools. The dinner is obviously outside of school hours, and, thus, voluntary. Now, is this a case that the school offering itself as a venue outside of operating hours is state endorsement?

    "The ACLU also alleges that Michelle Winkler’s husband, who is not a school board employee, offered prayer at an awards ceremony."

    Again, if this was planned or the school had "control of the content", then there is a violation of rulings. If this is not the case, and there was not control by the school, then there's no Constitutional breach.

    "Leading up to the graduation ceremony, the ACLU demanded the school stop students from offering prayers or saying anything religious."

    This is out of hand. The school has no right or authority to stop people from praying if they want to of their own volition. The school cannot sponsor a prayer event, but the school cannot stop a student or body of students from exercising their First Amendment right (that would be abridging).

    "Go away." 19 years old.
    The case cited by the idiot who started this thread is based on what happened at a High School Graduation Ceremony, notwithstanding the menage of strawman bullshit you've invoked to try and cover your tracks and obfuscate the issue again, dickpanic.

    Clearly, the graduation ceremonies are a compulsory event that was conducted on public property and invoked religious doctrine as a fundamental part of the ceremony. This violates Constitutional Law by forcing students into an atmosphere that promotes a specific religious doctrine.

    Your problem is that you can't even spew gibberish that's at least semi-coherent for me to dismiss.

    If you're the product of a parochial education, it's obvious why some of the parents are alarmed to find out their kids are being exposed to it.




    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 07-06-2009 at 12:29 PM.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by dchristie View Post
    Tsk..tsk.. You're the only one who's missing something, dickpanic. And it's not only cognitive reasoning abilities and basic information gathering skills. Let's see if you can come up with a snotty and arrogant response for where the various State Boards Of Education get their funding. Here's a hint: It begins with Department and ends with Education. Let us know when you give up and we'll help you along. Try to follow along, though. I don't have time to give you any pictures.
    O' RLY?

    http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html

    "States and localities are the primary sources of K-12 education fund-ing and always have been.

    In the 2004-05 school year, 83 cents out of every dollar spent on education is estimated to come from the state and local levels
    (45.6 percent from state funds and 37.1 percent from local governments). The federal government's share is 8.3 percent. The remaining 8.9 percent is from private sources, primarily for private schools. [ * * ] This division of support remains consistent with our nation's historic reliance on local control of schools."

    GAME.

    SET.

    MATCH.

    Being "intelligent" (which you inarguably are) does not prevent you from being "ignorant" (which you demonstrate in almost every post), dchristie. Help yourself out and RESEARCH before you expose how pathetically ill-informed you are.


    COUP DE GRACE:

    Um...It's p a l e t a b l e..., boy wonder.
    "Palatable".


    Main Entry:
    pal·at·able
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈpa-lə-tə-bəl\
    Function:
    adjective
    Date:
    1664
    1 : agreeable to the palate or taste 2 : agreeable or acceptable to the mind
    — pal·at·abil·i·ty \ˌpa-lə-tə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
    — pal·at·able·ness noun
    — pal·at·ably \ˈpa-lə-tə-blē\ adverb

    If you're going to correct me, at least, be correct in your spelling, "genius". LMAO. Priceless.


    BEATING A DEAD HORSE:

    The case cited by the idiot who started this thread is based on what happened at a High School Graduation Ceremony
    Actually, there were several events. One an awards ceremony, one a dinner, and the final one the graduation. Reading comprehension is definitely not your strong suit.
    Last edited by diskpanic; 07-06-2009 at 01:19 PM.
    CHILDREN of LIBERTY PARTY.
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    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    - George Washington

  11. #11
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Too bad, so sad. Religious dogma being taught in public schools is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

    Game, Set and Match.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by diskpanic View Post
    First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Which part of "Congress shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is misunderstood here? If a private individual, even an employee of a STATE AGENCY (not federal, kids), wants to stand up and exercise religion, the federal government has ZERO authority to stop it. If the ACLU does not approve, then members of said organization can choose not to participate. The "state" has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO PROHIBIT THE CITIZENS' FREE EXERCISE RIGHT.

    Wake up, kids. My right to exercise does NOT abridge your right to NOT exercise. More importantly, your right to not exercise does NOT give right to anyone to abridge my right to exercise.
    You seemed to have missed the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" part. The public school system, as a government agency, CANNOT impose relgious beliefs on publich school children, not as actual truth and scientific fact anyway. Teachers can be as religious as they want, but not while on the clock. Why not? Because it becomes the establishment of a religion by a government body.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Which part of "Congress shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is misunderstood here? If a private individual, even an employee of a STATE AGENCY (not federal, kids), wants to stand up and exercise religion, the federal government has ZERO authority to stop it. If the ACLU does not approve, then members of said organization can choose not to participate. The "state" has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO PROHIBIT THE CITIZENS' FREE EXERCISE RIGHT.

    Wake up, kids. My right to exercise does NOT abridge your right to NOT exercise. More importantly, your right to not exercise does NOT give right to anyone to abridge my right to exercise.
    Well, it does when you try to push your faith on others... such as teaching it in the public school system.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Crab of PAIN!!! View Post
    You seemed to have missed the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" part. The public school system, as a government agency, CANNOT impose relgious beliefs on publich school children, not as actual truth and scientific fact anyway. Teachers can be as religious as they want, but not while on the clock. Why not? Because it becomes the establishment of a religion by a government body.
    If the public school system can be considered a govermental agency then I suppose any airport under FAA control can be considered a governmental agency and therefore the installation of foot baths for muslims is promoting a religion and should also be banned.
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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by foxbaron View Post
    If the public school system can be considered a govermental agency then I suppose any airport under FAA control can be considered a governmental agency and therefore the installation of foot baths for muslims is promoting a religion and should also be banned.

    I'd actually have no problem with that.

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    Re: Schools are Not Religion Free Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by foxbaron View Post
    If the public school system can be considered a govermental agency then I suppose any airport under FAA control can be considered a governmental agency and therefore the installation of foot baths for muslims is promoting a religion and should also be banned.
    And maybe a full-on body scrub for you!...I'm good with that!....Ah....but, I jest.

    Actually, your analogy is flawed. What a surprise. Installing foot baths for muslims does not promote a religion as those in the airport are not made to use them or hindered in any way by those who do.

    Care to try again.
    Last edited by LogicallyYours; 07-06-2009 at 03:24 PM.
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