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Thread: Existentialism

  1. #1
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    Existentialism

    Check this.


    Thoughts?



    http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...ist/sartre.htm

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    Re: Existentialism

    HAMLET:

    I will tell you why; so shall my anticipation
    prevent your discovery, and your secrecy to the king
    and queen moult no feather.

    I have of late--but
    wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, forgone all
    custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily
    with my disposition that this goodly frame, the
    earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most
    excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave
    o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted
    with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to
    me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

    What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
    how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how
    express and admirable! in action how like an angel!
    in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the
    world! the paragon of animals!

    And yet, to me,
    what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not
    me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling
    you seem to say so.

    The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmarke Act II, scene ii - Wm. -"Willie the Shake" - Shakespeare


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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    What it boils down to for me is, can humanity be reduced to algorithms?

    I believe not.

    In US law, the false assumption that led to destruction of freedom was the idea that a corporation was a "legal person" having similar privileges and immunities under the 14th amendment.

    But corporations, to paraphrase a statement from Lord Chief Justice Edward Coke, have neither bodies to be kicked nor souls to be damned.

    Churches? Same. Governments? Same. Ideologies? Same.

    Humans like to create an algorithmic fiction and declare it is most like themselves, sort of like Hamlet's soliloquy.

    "man is like...." but our description s never complete, because all such decisions are incomplete when it comes to humankind. We are our own metaphor.

    "I Am". "I exist".

    That is the foundation of truth, and in that, I know that no set of rules can ever say of itself "I am", so screw them.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by dr poormouth View Post
    HAMLET:

    I will tell you why; so shall my anticipation
    prevent your discovery, and your secrecy to the king
    and queen moult no feather.

    I have of late--but
    wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, forgone all
    custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily
    with my disposition that this goodly frame, the
    earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most
    excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave
    o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted
    with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to
    me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

    What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
    how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how
    express and admirable! in action how like an angel!
    in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the
    world! the paragon of animals!

    And yet, to me,
    what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not
    me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling
    you seem to say so.

    The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmarke Act II, scene ii - Wm. -"Willie the Shake" - Shakespeare

    to think of old age is to dread the idea of death!? to become old and realize the travesties/travails of living is to welcome death!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    Last edited by lexx; 06-11-2009 at 11:38 PM.
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    Re: Existentialism

    here ya go.......
    "Atheistic existentialism, of which I am a representative, declares with greater consistency that if God does not exist there is at least one being whose existence comes before its essence, a being which exists before it can be defined by any conception of it. That being is man or, as Heidegger has it, the human reality. What do we mean by saying that existence precedes essence? We mean that man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world and defines himself afterwards. If man as the existentialist sees him is not definable, it is because to begin with he is nothing. He will not be anything until later, and then he will be what he makes of himself. Thus, there is no human nature, because there is no God to have a conception of it. Man simply is. Not that he is simply what he conceives himself to be, but he is what he wills, and as he conceives himself after already existing as he wills to be after that leap towards existence. Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself. That is the first principle of existentialism." ...........:freak3: :spin2: :
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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    here ya go.......
    "Atheistic existentialism, of which I am a representative, declares with greater consistency that if God does not exist there is at least one being whose existence comes before its essence, a being which exists before it can be defined by any conception of it. That being is man or, as Heidegger has it, the human reality. What do we mean by saying that existence precedes essence? We mean that man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world and defines himself afterwards. If man as the existentialist sees him is not definable, it is because to begin with he is nothing. He will not be anything until later, and then he will be what he makes of himself. Thus, there is no human nature, because there is no God to have a conception of it. Man simply is. Not that he is simply what he conceives himself to be, but he is what he wills, and as he conceives himself after already existing as he wills to be after that leap towards existence. Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself. That is the first principle of existentialism." ...........:freak3: :spin2: :
    So what you're saying is that the universe has always existed and that there was no essence prior to the creation of the universe ? The expression of life will always come from essence. Not essence from the expression of life. The universe exists within GOD. The universe is something and GOD is everything. Something will always be less than everything.


    FYI (for you are in formation)

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by goodomen9 View Post
    So what you're saying is that the universe has always existed and that there was no essence prior to the creation of the universe ? The expression of life will always come from essence. Not essence from the expression of life. The universe exists within GOD. The universe is something and GOD is everything. Something will always be less than everything.

    Creation? Start...or beginning...


    The expression of life comes from essence?

    1st and foremost you think.
    Because you think, you can conclude that you exist.

    Your essence is defined by what you do.
    What you do is not defined by your essence.

    A coward is only a coward by commiting cowardly acts. By his actions he is defined.
    At any time he can cease to act in cowardice and begin to wear the essence of heroism.

    We come into existence as a blank slate. The only surety is that we exist. As we begin to act and react our essence can be determined. It can also change based on what we do.

    Existence before essence

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    Re: Existentialism

    Your essence is defined by what you do.
    What you do is not defined by your essence.

    This reminds me of the time i tried to define freedom to someone. I said that "people define freedom as choice, but choice is actually the result of freedom".

    They said "How do you know that freedom is not the result of choice?"

    Freedom would certainly be an "essence", perhaps even a condition of life existence, but did choice produce freedom, or freedom produce choice?

    It beats me.



    A coward is only a coward by commiting cowardly acts. By his actions he is defined.
    Did you ever see Paddy Chayefsky's "The Americanization of Emily"? James Garner, who played the chief character, a WW2 soldier who avoided violence by serving a general, stated that he was a "devout practicing coward". For him, to be a coward was an act of bravery.

    In the Vietnam era, I became a conscientious objector because I thought the government had no right to wage war there.

    A local redneck said to me "Anybody whon't fight for his country is a damn coward!"

    So I fought him and beat the crap out of him. Personally, I enjoy a good scrap, and i did serve in the mariens after Vietnam, after which I fought with them because they had the ridiculous idea that they could get in my face and call me names. I stood 2 Company Office Hours, 2 Batallion Office Hours, was sentenced to 2 months Correctional Custody, and stood a Special Court Martial, which I won on my own defense.

    I also found that my brave marine friends would not come to my aid legally because, in their words, they were "covering my own ass".

    From such heroes national wars are won. So, there are cowards, and then there are cowards.

    At any time he can cease to act in cowardice and begin to wear the essence of heroism.
    My country says I wear the essence of a coward.
    We come into existence as a blank slate. The only surety is that we exist. As we begin to act and react our essence can be determined. It can also change based on what we do.
    My essence is pure "pissed off".(Not at you)

    Existence before essence
    Essence de urine.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    This reminds me of the time i tried to define freedom to someone. I said that "people define freedom as choice, but choice is actually the result of freedom".

    They said "How do you know that freedom is not the result of choice?"

    Freedom would certainly be an "essence", perhaps even a condition of life existence, but did choice produce freedom, or freedom produce choice?

    It beats me.
    Did you read linked text?
    If existence before essence, then you own the freedom to do, to say, to think, to act, to be, to accept or to deny anything or everything or nothing.
    Choice is at the very heart of existence. Freedom is at the very heart of existence. Responsibility is at the very heart of existence. For with nothing but our own existence, there is no ultimate law a priori on which to base one's essence.
    Freedom is not essence. Choice is not essence. They are the mechanism upon which all decisions are based upon realization of existence.



    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Did you ever see Paddy Chayefsky's "The Americanization of Emily"? James Garner, who played the chief character, a WW2 soldier who avoided violence by serving a general, stated that he was a "devout practicing coward". For him, to be a coward was an act of bravery.

    In the Vietnam era, I became a conscientious objector because I thought the government had no right to wage war there.

    A local redneck said to me "Anybody whon't fight for his country is a damn coward!"

    I also found that my brave marine friends would not come to my aid legally because, in their words, they were "covering my own ass".

    From such heroes national wars are won. So, there are cowards, and then there are cowards.



    My country says I wear the essence of a coward.


    My essence is pure "pissed off".(Not at you)



    Essence de urine.

    Again, if you read the linked text, it actually goes into the projections of Other and how our perception is gauged based off feedback gained from Other....

    (forgive me, I'm just discovering this philosophy myself...finding it rather grueling to read Kafka, Camus, Kirkgard(sp), Sartre, and Simone de Boveau(sp)...

    So my articulation is a bit testy...

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    Re: Existentialism

    Actually I agreed with a great deal of it. Of course, in the example of loyalty to mother or loyalty fight a war for country, it's a no-brainer. My mother gets first choice.





    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Did you read linked text?
    If existence before essence, then you own the freedom to do, to say, to think, to act, to be, to accept or to deny anything or everything or nothing.
    Choice is at the very heart of existence. Freedom is at the very heart of existence. Responsibility is at the very heart of existence. For with nothing but our own existence, there is no ultimate law a priori on which to base one's essence.
    Freedom is not essence. Choice is not essence. They are the mechanism upon which all decisions are based upon realization of existence.






    Again, if you read the linked text, it actually goes into the projections of Other and how our perception is gauged based off feedback gained from Other....

    (forgive me, I'm just discovering this philosophy myself...finding it rather grueling to read Kafka, Camus, Kirkgard(sp), Sartre, and Simone de Boveau(sp)...

    So my articulation is a bit testy...

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Actually I agreed with a great deal of it. Of course, in the example of loyalty to mother or loyalty fight a war for country, it's a no-brainer. My mother gets first choice.



    Well, there you have it.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Well, there you have it.
    Yeah, and my mother and I never got along, which tells you where my government comes in.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Yeah, and my mother and I never got along, which tells you where my government comes in.

    And yet, even your hostility, anger, and resentment are recognized, entertained and maintained by choice. You are the ultimate authority and hold sole responsibility for the essence of your existence.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    And yet, even your hostility, anger, and resentment are recognized, entertained and maintained by choice. You are the ultimate authority and hold sole responsibility for the essence of your existence.
    Hallelujah! Go forth and preach the gospel!

    Exactly the same conclusions I reached in reading the bible, as well as Ayn Rand's "For The New Intellectual".

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    Re: Existentialism

    Wow, sometmes you people blow my mind with the things you say Bman and Doojie.

    FYI(for you are in formation.)

    A non religious understanding of GOD
    Last edited by goodomen9; 06-13-2009 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    And yet, even your hostility, anger, and resentment are recognized, entertained and maintained by choice. You are the ultimate authority and hold sole responsibility for the essence of your existence.
    choice is a FUNNY/not so funny thing!? i thought doojie said choice is IMPOSSIBLE!? i take it YOU disagree!? i think we are free to make SMALL choices but have NO choice in the BIGGER matters!? at least not as we KNOW ourselves within the context of the ordinary definitions of a common societal life!? be born, grow up, get a good job, have kids, live a moderate life, die of old age!?
    :freak3: :spin2: :
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