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Thread: Intervention

  1. #1
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    Intervention


    By: Stephen Pizzo


    What's the right thing to do when a long-time friend becomes more trouble than you can tolerate?

    What do you do when that friend returns your friendship only so long as you support everything he does, even the things you've repeatedly asked him not to do?

    And, what's the right thing to do with a friend, like the one described, whose behavior and your support of it, poisons your relations with scores of other friends and potential friends?

    This is the very question President Barack Obama is struggling with this month. And, if he gets it right, he will be the first post-war president ever to do so.

    That friend, by the way, if you have not already guessed, is Israel.

    Repeatedly we, and almost every other country on earth, have asked, even pleaded, with Israel to stop building settlements on Palestinian land and to stop expanding those already built.

    And just as repeatedly one Israeli government after another have thumbed their nose at those pleadings.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I've always supported Israel and Israel's right to exist, and still do. What I have never supported though is Israel right to use 5000-year old biblical title reports to expand beyond its 1967 borders in order to lay claim to real estate that does not belong to them.

    Yet this naked thievery continues apace. Yes, I said thievery – a strong word indeed, and one that is certain to outrage my Jewish and Israeli friends. But, just as Americans had to accept the hard truth that "enhance interrogation techniques" really meant toture, I can no longer pretend that what Isreal calls "settlements" are anything but thievery.

    Believe me, I understand all the arguments Israelis use to justify the unjustifiable; the holocaust, never again, hostile neighbors, terrorism, etc. But the strategic situation has changed remarkably since Israel's formative years. Israel is a nuclear-armed nation with the strongest and most efficient military in the region – as it has demonstrated to its hostile neighbor's chagrin more than once.

    Should Israel's survival ever be really threatened she could wipe that threat away – once and for all – with the push of a button. Even Israel's most ardent foes have no illusions about that. Should they ever genuinely threaten Israel's existence, there'd be a holocaust, and this time it would not be the Jews on the receiving end.

    As the years have passed it's become harder and harder to accept Israel's stated justifications for it's expansionist policies as anything other than cynical obfuscations. By expanding West Bank settlements and creating new ones Israel has been, piece by piece, preemptively dismembering any would-be Palestinian state.

    And, by expanding these settlements Israel is also hoping they can push into the next century a loudly ticking demographic time bomb. Palestinian birth rates far outstrip the much slower Jewish population growth. Even within Israel's original borders, Israeli Arab voters will, at some point down the road, outnumber Jewish voters. What then? Disenfranchise any citizen with Israel who is not Jewish? Deport all non Jews? Create an system of apartheid for only true democracy in the Middle East?

    None of those solutions are realistic or acceptable in modern times. So, by expanding settlements and establishing new ones, Israel hopes Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere can at least for the a while, hold off the day when Israeli Arabs become Israel's new voting majority.

    Look, here's the bottom line. In the weeks ahead President Obama needs to make it perfectly clear that America's friendship with Israel is about to be rebalanced. We will still support Israel, but no longer on long-standing,“Israel, right or wrong,” status quo. Like America, Israel faces very real dangers from very real foes. And both nations will continue facing those dangers for the foreseeable future. But that fact is not a greenlight to break the law or commit human rights offenses under cover of national security. We just got done learning that hard lesson here in America and nows the time to communicate it to our friends in the Middle East, including Isreal.

    Now it's time to lay down the law for the other hooligan in this never-ending pissing match. Israel needs to:

    • Stop all settlement construction and expansion. Dead stop. Not another nail, not another brick.
    • Except for the large settlements right on or within stones throw of the West Bank/Israel border, Israel must begin dismantling of all settlements deeper within West Bank territories. Sure that's going to mean uprooting tens of thousands of Jewish “settlers,” but the wages of sin are rarely pleasant.
    • As for those settlements straddling that border, they can stay in Israeli hands, but only if Israel provides Palestinians an acre for acre swap for those lands. These in-kind lands must be adjacent to Palestinian lands on the West Bank border or Gaza.
    • Israel must begin serious negotiations with Palestinians on the final status of the historically blood soaked “holy city” of Jerusalem. That final status must include a genuine possibility of Arab control of a portion of the traditionally Arab sector of Jerusalem.
    Now none of this will be either easy or painless for Israel. In fact it could spark an armed rebellion from Israel rabid right wingers who, all the holocaust rhetoric aside, simply hate Arabs, all Arabs. Israel's right wingers are that regions equivalent of our southern crackers during the civil rights years of the 1960s, or Afrikaners during apartheid in South Africa. They can't be changed, only controlled and contained and, when they act out, imprisoned. (The exact same goes for members of Hamas and Hezbollah. Ignorant, racist, crackers, one and all.)

    To make matters even more complicated Israel's new leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, can best be described as Dick Cheney in yamaka. His power is derived through creating and maintaining fear – fear of Arabs, fear of terrorism. Now no one in their right mind would suggest that Israel is not Target One for every Middle Eastern terrorist, the USA being Target Two.

    But neither the US or Israel face anything even close to an strategic threat from terrorism. Neither country is going to be defeated, occupied and taken over by al Qaida, et al. It just ain't gonna happen – ever. But like Dick Cheney, Netanyahu would have Israelis and the rest of the world believe that that's precisely the threat his nation faces. It worked for Cheney – if not for his nation. Because, when belligerency is peddled as the only alternative to death and destruction, belligerency becomes, not just policy, but policy married to patriotism. The last remaining element needed to create a full-blown disaster is an ambitious demagogue. (H. L. Mencken defined a demagogue as "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.")

    Anyway, by now it should be clear to any sane person that, when it comes to Palestinians and Israelis there's never been a shortage of either demagogues or idiots to follow them. It's long past time for the rest of the world to draw red lines in the sand.

    But this time it's gotta be TWO lines, not just one. There' has to be one clear line for Hamas and their ilk, and, for the first time, another clear line for Israel.

    Because when a friend becomes self-destructive and more trouble than he's worth, there's really only two choices; desert your friend, or organize an intervention. Real friends intervene.


    P.S. Okay, now you can email me and accuse me of being an anti-semite. (Which of course, I am not. I'm just fed up, right up to here, with both sides. I'm not anti-anything except anti-prick. So, an aside to both sides: Stop being such giant, swaggering, unrepentant pricks.)

    Last edited by sojustask; 05-29-2009 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Intervention

    it doesn't matter if Israel gives up settlements. doesn't matter at all. the other side insists on the destruction of israel.

    all the jews were forced out of gaza and gaza allowed to rule itself. they fired rockets and made threats to do worse.

    anybody else notice hamas has been kinda quiet after israel kicked ass?
    Last edited by mumbles; 05-29-2009 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Intervention

    How can you say it does not matter?
    of course it does...
    This issue is a very long one and remember why the hamas was started...6 day war stuff ..this is david v goliath stuff.....I dont speak about or even pretend to understand semitism...but the political actions of this state (as its is not a country)....is appauling and one day they may even be forced to act reasonbly as a member of the world, instead of the youngest child who can do no wrong......
    this does not mean I see Palestine as having committed no ill...but I do not have red white and blue blinkers installed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    it doesn't matter if Israel gives up settlements. doesn't matter at all. the other side insists on the destruction of israel.

    all the jews were forced out of gaza and gaza allowed to rule itself. they fired rockets and made threats to do worse.

    anybody else notice hamas has been kinda quiet after israel kicked ass?
    Last edited by reentry; 05-29-2009 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Intervention

    the muslims hate the jews. the only thing a jew can do to be liked by a muslim arab is commit suicide. settlements don't matter. if they liked jews, they would be happy to see new settlements. racism, eh? if you are jewish, you can't live anywhere?

    title to land comes from the government. you could possibly find that anybody in the world is entitled to land by some rationalization? you know, russia never asked the eskimos if they could sell alaska and france never asked anybody before they sold louisiana. you could say the normans had no right to settle any land in england since the invasion was illegal.

    get real. its not about settlements. its religious bigotry. nobody used the damn land for longer than anybody has been alive. its not being stolen, its being put to use.

  5. #5
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    Re: Intervention

    I think you need to look at the treaty ...I agree its a foolish doc..based on arrogance....but its is the document that they agreed too.
    Your statements about arabs and Muslims is just commonly sprouted tripe and wrong...
    That would me like me saying all rednecks cant see the truth if it bites them...settlement v occupied zones...your word choice reveals your bias...
    the historical stuff about land ownership you present is quite funny and basic and shows you are out of touch with reality...come on give me one of those blustering one liners...I do find them amusing.
    But I am glad you have an opinion, even if its based on fairy stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    the muslims hate the jews. the only thing a jew can do to be liked by a muslim arab is commit suicide. settlements don't matter. if they liked jews, they would be happy to see new settlements. racism, eh? if you are jewish, you can't live anywhere?

    title to land comes from the government. you could possibly find that anybody in the world is entitled to land by some rationalization? you know, russia never asked the eskimos if they could sell alaska and france never asked anybody before they sold louisiana. you could say the normans had no right to settle any land in england since the invasion was illegal.

    get real. its not about settlements. its religious bigotry. nobody used the damn land for longer than anybody has been alive. its not being stolen, its being put to use.

  6. #6
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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    the muslims hate the jews. the only thing a jew can do to be liked by a muslim arab is commit suicide. settlements don't matter. if they liked jews, they would be happy to see new settlements. racism, eh? if you are jewish, you can't live anywhere?

    title to land comes from the government. you could possibly find that anybody in the world is entitled to land by some rationalization? you know, russia never asked the eskimos if they could sell alaska and france never asked anybody before they sold louisiana. you could say the normans had no right to settle any land in england since the invasion was illegal.

    get real. its not about settlements. its religious bigotry. nobody used the damn land for longer than anybody has been alive. its not being stolen, its being put to use.
    if title comes from GOV then who CONTROLS GOV determines TITLE?! if socialism says title is of no regard to persons!? does this GO/DEMAND in the face of HUMAN NATURE!? of course i'm DICTATING all of this whilst enjoying my PORK CHOPS(literally and tastefully)AKA GK!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  7. #7
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    Re: Intervention

    yes, lexx. when there is a revolution, or a war resulting in loss of territory, the new government decides which titles will be honored and which will not. all titles are granted by a government and are absolutely worthless if that government does not have the power to enforce the title.

    the first colony in virginia claimed pretty much the whole continent, but had no power to enforce it. they were able protect local plantations from natives, and those titles remained until the civil war, when they were lost to taxes that could not be paid because the slaves that had produced the plantation's income were freed.

    this doesn't mean the a slave holder had some god given right to also claim all the land, its just recognition of what is and was at the time.

    the king can only demand taxes and take your property for not paying, if he has an army that will arrest you or kill you if you don't pay. of course, he uses the taxes to to pay the army to enforce both your title to the land and collect your tax bill.

    israel does not recognize hamas or fatah as a government that can collect taxes or enforce land titles. israel can. the normans in england could and did grant and enforce titles and taxes as they pleased.

    this is the way is always was everywhere.

    Ours is a world governed by the aggressive use of force.
    - rush linbaugh

    Norman conquest of England
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Conquest

    the area formerly known as palestine was conquered long ago, 1948. nobody has been able to do anything about it. arabs who tried lost more territory in the process.

    terrorism, killing innocents, has not and will not make all the jews go back to europe. nutty arabs keep trying so they must all be insane. could be the desert heat or some fever they catch from camels?
    Last edited by mumbles; 05-30-2009 at 12:54 AM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    yes, lexx. when there is a revolution, or a war resulting in loss of territory, the new government decides which titles will be honored and which will not. all titles are granted by a government and are absolutely worthless if that government does not have the power to enforce the title.

    the first colony in virginia claimed pretty much the whole continent, but had no power to enforce it. they were able protect local plantations from natives, and those titles remained until the civil war, when they were lost to taxes that could not be paid because the slaves that had produced the plantation's income were freed.

    this doesn't mean the a slave holder had some god given right to also claim all the land, its just recognition of what is and was at the time.

    the king can only demand taxes and take your property for not paying, if he has an army that will arrest you or kill you if you don't pay. of course, he uses the taxes to to pay the army to enforce both your title to the land and collect your tax bill.

    israel does not recognize hamas or fatah as a government that can collect taxes or enforce land titles. israel can. the normans in england could and did grant and enforce titles and taxes as they pleased.

    this is the way is always was everywhere.

    Ours is a world governed by the aggressive use of force.
    - rush linbaugh

    Norman conquest of England
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Conquest

    the area formerly known as palestine was conquered long ago, 1948. nobody has been able to do anything about it. arabs who tried lost more territory in the process.

    terrorism, killing innocents, has not and will not make all the jews go back to europe. nutty arabs keep trying so they must all be insane. could be the desert heat or some fever they catch from camels?
    It's another one of Mumble's wistful fantasies about those wonderful days when slavery was legal and there was no such thing as International Law - only The Law Of The Jungle. It's not uncommon among Monkeys

    He's so lost in the modern, civilized world with strange and alien concepts like: fairness, equity, justice and, especially, peace..

    Let me help, Mumbles. Good luck and "God's" speed, dude: Let me know if I can expedite things for you.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/118321






    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 05-30-2009 at 10:52 AM.

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    Re: Intervention

    ignored. i don't need to read whatever it is about israel. any person in the world has a right to build a house as shelter from the sun and rain, where ever they are at the time, unless there is some prior claim to that space. governments sort out these conflicting claims thru courts, or its settled by force.

    what we got is waaaaahhhhhhh. we had the land for 10,000 years and didn't set one brick on it but we just don't want no jews here. sorry, if you don't have an army to go move them, and the jews do have an army to protect them, you lose.

    oh, you want to be a martyr? get virgins in heaven? nuts. build your own house, live your own life, try to be kind to your neighbors and tolerant of their beliefs.

  10. #10
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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    ignored. i don't need to read whatever it is about israel. any person in the world has a right to build a house as shelter from the sun and rain, where ever they are at the time, unless there is some prior claim to that space. governments sort out these conflicting claims thru courts, or its settled by force.

    what we got is waaaaahhhhhhh. we had the land for 10,000 years and didn't set one brick on it but we just don't want no jews here. sorry, if you don't have an army to go move them, and the jews do have an army to protect them, you lose.

    oh, you want to be a martyr? get virgins in heaven? nuts. build your own house, live your own life, try to be kind to your neighbors and tolerant of their beliefs.
    Did I neglect to mention property rights, Mumbles? ... like the deeded and recorded homes and orchards that have been in Arab families for tens of generations that were summarily bulldozed and ripped to shreds to make room for Zionists from Brooklyn with no ancestral connection to the land whatsoever to build condos on?

    Mumbles.. no offense, but you are the archetype of a ing racist imbecile who doesn't have the remotest clue in Hell what he's talking about. Not even close. What you deal in is jingoism, racism, rank ignorance of history and psycho-babble. That's it. On second thought, offense intended.







    .
    Last edited by dchristie; 05-30-2009 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: Intervention

    the deeds are granted by the king/chief. the king is dead. the land was conquered. whatever the courts of israel decide now and have decided since 1948 is the law of the land.

    if people say, we don't recognize your stupid courts so we are going to throw bombs instead of getting a lawyer, well, we know how that has turned out so far.

    in the USA, the eskimos can get a lawyer and claim title to all of alaska and demand the europeans all leave today. they can, and maybe will. but if they try blowing up busses full of children to prove their title, they will be in prison or dead.

    its all the same everywhere, nothing special about israel, except that superstitious people claim that particular ground is "holy". the eskimos could claim all of alaska as holy ground too, but they prefer getting a welfare check from those evil europeans, and staying drunk.

    titles granted in palestine by the roman empire and the ottoman empire can be considered void. the british had a mandate to rule for a time. that expired in 1948 and everything was up for grabs. everybody grabbed what they could. time to settle down and get on with life. 60 years is enough time to sort it out.
    Last edited by mumbles; 05-30-2009 at 11:19 AM.

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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles
    the deeds are granted by the king/chief. the king is dead. the land was conquered. whatever the courts of israel decide now and have decided since 1948 is the law of the land.

    if people say, we don't recognize your stupid courts so we are going to throw bombs instead of getting a lawyer, well, we know how that has turned out so far.

    in the USA, the eskimos can get a lawyer and claim title to all of alaska and demand the europeans all leave today. they can, and maybe will. but if they try blowing up busses full of children to prove their title, they will be in prison or dead.

    its all the same everywhere, nothing special about israel, except that superstitious people claim that particular ground is "holy". the eskimos could claim all of alaska as holy ground too, but they prefer getting a welfare check from those evil europeans, and staying drunk.

    titles granted in palestine by the roman empire and the ottoman empire can be considered void. the british had a mandate to rule for a time. that expired in 1948 and everything was up for grabs. everybody grabbed what they could. time to settle down and get on with life. 60 years is enough time to sort it out.


    The UN partition plan and Geneva Conventions prohibit Israel from expanding past the land allotted to them under Resolution 181. That is why the present settlements are considered "illegal".

    Oh, and Mumbles....





    .
    franKg - "Since God was ok with Moses, Joshua and David burning cities to the ground and killing all the civilians I think he would be ok with us splashing a little water on some terrorists."

    Dr poormouth - "Exackly;
    It's not "waterboarding", it's "extraordinary baptism""

    Quote Originally Posted by carlbenator
    As discussed in a previous thread, this IRRATIONAL HATRED for the Jews and their RIGHT to SURVIVE is one of the many PROOFS of a God, AND a Devil.

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    Re: Intervention

    who is responsible for enforcing these UN resolutions?

    if the resolution says, this is what israel will do after terrorism stops and arabs recognize israel, why do you think its valid if the arabs never agreed to do their part, and haven't ?

    producing a valid title to land is not the same as, my mammy said we should have it.

    the land is just there, unused. its the same in my town. if there is a vacant lot next door to me, i might let my visitors use it as a parking lot. if nobody seems to care for a few years, i might put a garden on it. if nobody cares or makes a competing claim for 60 years, my heirs would assume ownership. and in fact, in my state, they could be issued the title. it was 13 years of use and care, if i remember, to get title of abandoned real estate.
    Last edited by mumbles; 05-30-2009 at 11:45 AM.

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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    what we got is waaaaahhhhhhh. we had the land for 10,000 years and didn't set one brick on it but we just don't want no jews here. sorry, if you don't have an army to go move them, and the jews do have an army to protect them, you lose..


  15. #15
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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles View Post
    who is responsible for enforcing these UN resolutions?

    if the resolution says, this is what israel will do after terrorism stops and arabs recognize israel, why do you think its valid if the arabs never agreed to do their part, and haven't ?

    producing a valid title to land is not the same as, my mammy said we should have it.

    the land is just there, unused. its the same in my town. if there is a vacant lot next door to me, i might let my visitors use it as a parking lot. if nobody seems to care for a few years, i might put a garden on it. if nobody cares or makes a competing claim for 60 years, my heirs would assume ownership. and in fact, in my state, they could be issued the title. it was 13 years of use and care, if i remember, to get title of abandoned real estate.
    OMG: What an ognorant POS. Just when you think it couldn't get any more idiotic, then.....Mumbles comes along to forge new uncharted territroy.

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    Re: Intervention

    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles
    who is responsible for enforcing these UN resolutions?

    if the resolution says, this is what israel will do after terrorism stops and arabs recognize israel, why do you think its valid if the arabs never agreed to do their part, and haven't ?

    producing a valid title to land is not the same as, my mammy said we should have it.

    That's funny. The Jews felt just as entitled to the land as the Muslims did prior to 1948. You remember the "God gave us the land" statement, yes? The Torah Jews refuse to take part of Israel however, knowing they were sent into exile for a reason.


    the land is just there, unused. its the same in my town. if there is a vacant lot next door to me, i might let my visitors use it as a parking lot. if nobody seems to care for a few years, i might put a garden on it. if nobody cares or makes a competing claim for 60 years, my heirs would assume ownership. and in fact, in my state, they could be issued the title. it was 13 years of use and care, if i remember, to get title of abandoned real estate.
    LOL...a vacant lot next door to you would have a title bearing someone's name. If not, it's the State's land until you purchase it. Squatters have no rights anymore.

    The Arabs held title to their land in 1948. The Zionists caused a panic and hundreds of thousands fled their land fearing death. Of course, you being an apologist would copiously provide excuses as to why Israel should never return that land, even though it wasn't attached to the land given Israel in 1948 as part of the partition plan. That's history and there's no possible way for the Arabs to have those segments returned to them even though it was stolen from them.

    However, the land annexed by Israel during and after the 1967 war can be lawfully returned to the Arabs who lost it. That is the least that can be done.




    .
    franKg - "Since God was ok with Moses, Joshua and David burning cities to the ground and killing all the civilians I think he would be ok with us splashing a little water on some terrorists."

    Dr poormouth - "Exackly;
    It's not "waterboarding", it's "extraordinary baptism""

    Quote Originally Posted by carlbenator
    As discussed in a previous thread, this IRRATIONAL HATRED for the Jews and their RIGHT to SURVIVE is one of the many PROOFS of a God, AND a Devil.

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