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  1. #1
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    Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Will

    What does Free Will mean to you? Does it even exist?

    Philosophers have been debating Free Will vs Fate for centuries but I've noticed that whenever the subject of God comes up Free Will is often mentioned as if it's the greatest gift He could have given us. I disagree. If there is a God then there is no such thing as Free Will. I'll explain...

    If God gave me Free Will then that means that among other things he gave me the option to NOT believe in Him. And yet there are many who claim to know that I will be punished horribly for doing so.

    Free Will with conditions is not Free Will at all. It's how the Mafia works!

    (Imagine God speaking in Tony Soprano's voice) "You don't have to believe in me. You got a choice, ya know whut I mean? Buuuuuuuuut...I can't guarantee something won't happen to your soul! That's all I'm sayin'."

    That's not a choice, that coercion. That's not Free Will, that's an ultimatum.


    Discuss. :)
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  2. #2
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    And yet you have chosen to write and chose as you do...doesn't that invalidate your point?

    I think the very point that you need to validate your supposed non-belief leans towards the arguement that you are still seeking answers.
    I hope you find them one day.


    Quote Originally Posted by mike pulcinella View Post
    What does Free Will mean to you? Does it even exist?

    Philosophers have been debating Free Will vs Fate for centuries but I've noticed that whenever the subject of God comes up Free Will is often mentioned as if it's the greatest gift He could have given us. I disagree. If there is a God then there is no such thing as Free Will. I'll explain...

    If God gave me Free Will then that means that among other things he gave me the option to NOT believe in Him. And yet there are many who claim to know that I will be punished horribly for doing so.

    Free Will with conditions is not Free Will at all. It's how the Mafia works!

    (Imagine God speaking in Tony Soprano's voice) "You don't have to believe in me. You got a choice, ya know whut I mean? Buuuuuuuuut...I can't guarantee something won't happen to your soul! That's all I'm sayin'."

    That's not a choice, that coercion. That's not Free Will, that's an ultimatum.


    Discuss. :)

  3. #3
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by reentry View Post
    And yet you have chosen to write and chose as you do...doesn't that invalidate your point?

    I think the very point that you need to validate your supposed non-belief leans towards the arguement that you are still seeking answers.
    I hope you find them one day.
    HAVE I chosen to write?? Some would say that it is all part of God's plan and they we are merely "fulfilling His will".

    SUPPOSED non-belief?? Do you have any idea how CONDESCENDING that is?!
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  4. #4
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Whoops , must be lost in translation...I have previously been told I do tend to speak funny when I have to speak English...not my native tounge, no disrepect intended.
    I usually get away with it...
    But yes you have chosen to write...
    And the Bible actually teaches that there is no plan...only guidance...we are blessed and get to chose our own destiny, a great honour and responsibilty...
    Sorry Terry, youre right of course in physical things but my uderstanding was that this is about free will not existing in a person of religious beliefs.

    Just my understanding of it,

    Quote Originally Posted by mike pulcinella View Post
    HAVE I chosen to write?? Some would say that it is all part of God's plan and they we are merely "fulfilling His will".

    SUPPOSED non-belief?? Do you have any idea how CONDESCENDING that is?!
    Last edited by reentry; 05-06-2009 at 04:52 AM. Reason: their / there

  5. #5
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Free will is not without limits. Unrestricted freedom can result in anarchy, which damages everybody’s freedom. We are free to ignore the laws of gravity, but it will bring about injury or even death if we jumped off a building. We are free to ignore the internal law of our bodies and stop eating food or drinking water, but we will die.

  6. #6
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by reentry View Post
    Whoops , must be lost in translation...I have previously been told I do tend to speak funny when I have to speak English...not my native tounge, no disrepect intended.
    I usually get away with it...
    But yes you have chosen to write...
    And the Bible actually teaches that there is no plan...only guidance...we are blessed and get to chose our own destiny, a great honour and responsibilty...
    Sorry Terry, youre right of course in physical things but my uderstanding was that this is about free will not existing in a person of religious beliefs.

    Just my understanding of it,
    My apologies. I did not realize that English was not your language. In that case I commend you for writing as well as you do. There are many English speakers who do not write nearly as well!

    To continue...

    You wrote: "And the Bible actually teaches that there is no plan..."

    Then why when someone dies for whom we have been praying to live, do people often say, "We don't know God's plan"? Is that an incorrect way of thinking?
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  7. #7
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    I agree Mike it sounds more like coersion than free will. You are free to choose, as long as you don't choose someone over me. If you do, you will be punished.

    This goes back to the question of why you choose to believe. Is it because you actually believe or because you're scared of what might happen if you don't. I hear this all time from people who try and tell you, what does it hurt to believe? If you're right then you'll go to heaven, but if you're wrong, you'll spend an eternity in Hell. So it sounds like most people believe simply to cover their ass, just in case. That doesn't sound right.

  8. #8
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Now there is one advantage of being from ol' Herbert Armstrong's former church. We knew it was possible to believe in God and in the bible, but not in the idea of heaven and hell.

    This is also taught by JWs and SDAs as well. They realize that the idea of hell as manifest in Dante's Inferno is just a carry over from Etruscan mythology, adopted by the Catholic church.

    What we realized in ol' Herb's church was that, discussing the matter from a biblical perspective, that not everyone is "called" now.

    This, to me, made very good sense. Suppose, instead of trying to punish everyone now for some moral code on which no one could decide, suppose God was just looking for "A Few Good Men(and Women)" to0 become priests and servant leaders in a soon coming kingdom?

    This brings an entirely different perspective to the concept of free will. This means that, in order to become a leader, you would have to question the religious and governmental ideas of all systems. You would actually have to learn to think for yourself.

    Assuming, of course, that there is a God who is actually looking for an "elect" or even an "elite" who would serve as servant/leaders, the entire focus of freedom would be on the individual's right to live apart from and separate one's self from the collectivized beliefs of various religions.

    But what Herb's church, and the JWs, and the SDAs taught, is that those who aren't chosen at this time for such a purpose are also resurrected to learn ways of truth at a later time. No one actually dies if they choose not to believe based on their interpretation of the facts.

    Again, very sensible, ans supported by biblical teachings.

    The only problem with this is that even though some organizations may teach it, they cannot claim themselves as exclusive representatives of this God who is looking for a few good men. No one can claim that honor because of Godel's Incompleteness theorem.

    Truth can in no way be confined to one single, rational, finite, mechanical package. All human attempts to do so will fail.

    So, assuming that there is a God looking for a few good individuals to qualify as rulers, and there can be no human organization that has exclusive right to represent those rulers, then the only free will choice those possible rulers can make is to follow no human system as an authority and claim the right to their own judgement based on reflection and study.

    You cannot rebel against God, since we cannot prove there is a God. You cannot rebel against God's will, because there are over 30,000 versions within Christianity alone.

    The only thing from which you can truly choose freedom are human concepts of God and what humans believe God expects. You are free to reject any of them, and in fact, you should.

    If Romans 8:7 is true, and there is no reason to conclude it is not, then it is impossible to choose God in any rational, finite, algorithmic process by which to get from here to God.

    Since it is impossible for any human to make such choices in a fashion that can be proven, we can only conclude that all humans exist equally in their determination of what to believe, with none of them having any superiority over another.

    This means that all people are equal in that sense, whether they were created that way or not.

    OTOH, suppose that ol' Herb was wrong, that there is no God. The same truth would still apply in regard to freedom. You are free to the extent that you can learn to think for yourself and become self sufficient enough that you need no collective authority over you.

    It still amounts to the same argument: freedom from false authority of men.

  9. #9
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    The Religious concept of "Free Will" is most certainly a scam/bogus. If it existed, I could punch "God" in the face and only have my own conscience to worry about as a consequence.

  10. #10
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Now there is one advantage of being from ol' Herbert Armstrong's former church. We knew it was possible to believe in God and in the bible, but not in the idea of heaven and hell.

    This is also taught by JWs and SDAs as well. They realize that the idea of hell as manifest in Dante's Inferno is just a carry over from Etruscan mythology, adopted by the Catholic church.

    What we realized in ol' Herb's church was that, discussing the matter from a biblical perspective, that not everyone is "called" now.

    This, to me, made very good sense. Suppose, instead of trying to punish everyone now for some moral code on which no one could decide, suppose God was just looking for "A Few Good Men(and Women)" to0 become priests and servant leaders in a soon coming kingdom?

    This brings an entirely different perspective to the concept of free will. This means that, in order to become a leader, you would have to question the religious and governmental ideas of all systems. You would actually have to learn to think for yourself.

    Assuming, of course, that there is a God who is actually looking for an "elect" or even an "elite" who would serve as servant/leaders, the entire focus of freedom would be on the individual's right to live apart from and separate one's self from the collectivized beliefs of various religions.

    But what Herb's church, and the JWs, and the SDAs taught, is that those who aren't chosen at this time for such a purpose are also resurrected to learn ways of truth at a later time. No one actually dies if they choose not to believe based on their interpretation of the facts.

    Again, very sensible, ans supported by biblical teachings.

    The only problem with this is that even though some organizations may teach it, they cannot claim themselves as exclusive representatives of this God who is looking for a few good men. No one can claim that honor because of Godel's Incompleteness theorem.

    Truth can in no way be confined to one single, rational, finite, mechanical package. All human attempts to do so will fail.

    So, assuming that there is a God looking for a few good individuals to qualify as rulers, and there can be no human organization that has exclusive right to represent those rulers, then the only free will choice those possible rulers can make is to follow no human system as an authority and claim the right to their own judgement based on reflection and study.

    You cannot rebel against God, since we cannot prove there is a God. You cannot rebel against God's will, because there are over 30,000 versions within Christianity alone.

    The only thing from which you can truly choose freedom are human concepts of God and what humans believe God expects. You are free to reject any of them, and in fact, you should.

    If Romans 8:7 is true, and there is no reason to conclude it is not, then it is impossible to choose God in any rational, finite, algorithmic process by which to get from here to God.

    Since it is impossible for any human to make such choices in a fashion that can be proven, we can only conclude that all humans exist equally in their determination of what to believe, with none of them having any superiority over another.

    This means that all people are equal in that sense, whether they were created that way or not.

    OTOH, suppose that ol' Herb was wrong, that there is no God. The same truth would still apply in regard to freedom. You are free to the extent that you can learn to think for yourself and become self sufficient enough that you need no collective authority over you.

    It still amounts to the same argument: freedom from false authority of men.
    Brilliant! A breath of fresh air! Thank you for writing that.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by mike pulcinella View Post
    Brilliant! A breath of fresh air! Thank you for writing that.
    You're welcome. You are one of few who would appreciate it.

  12. #12
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Free will is not without limits. Unrestricted freedom can result in anarchy, which damages everybody’s freedom. We are free to ignore the laws of gravity, but it will bring about injury or even death if we jumped off a building. We are free to ignore the internal law of our bodies and stop eating food or drinking water, but we will die.
    What planet are you living on? We are not free to ignore the laws of gravity. You cannot just hover in mid air because you chose not to believe in gravity. Gravity exists for all of us. We are all bound to gravity whether you choose to or not.

    You cannot have freedom from gravity just as you can't have freedom from the dominance of your God (if you believe in him)
    Last edited by Lord_jag; 05-06-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Sorry I have to be quick, at work now.
    People and indeed clergy say many "off the cuff" things and get away with it because the Bible is about interpretation...just about any theme in the Bible or Church is displayed by a series of often conflicting anecdotes, and thus relies on the reader to interpret them to particular circumstance.
    Problem (to my mind) is when clergy and people think blindly following is what is asked for...yes in the Old testaments etc... God was represented as vengeful...but that suited those times, then when Jesus came to Earth that train of thought was moderated....why is it so hard to see that text are written with the concepts and punishments applicable to the day they are written. I would rejoice if the Lord was to arrive today.

    Even if we did recieve the info God ultimately wanted, we just didnt possess the culture or education to understand it and lastly words attributed to Christ were written by people not the Lord.
    We obviously say very strange stuff in grief and it is designed to offer solace, sometimes as in 'We dont know God's plan" we get a little liberal and start attributing stuff that helps us, but is not true...we actually do know God's plan, to love us and in turn he hope we love and worship him, everything else is fluff really.

    However supposing he sent his Son again, I would not expect him to arrive and say...carry on as you are...no new info or clarifications for you.
    Then disappear again.
    I fully understand the points of need for proof ...but faith just doesnt work that way... Yes many have misconstrued meanings and teachings etc for thei own purposes and control issues...but it does not make the original message any less true, just their message a confusing red herring.

    Mike you seem to like science and in my youth I did a engineering degree...
    I can compare it with say the differing theories on gravity and the way they rely on "Dark Matter and Dark Energy" for 92% of all matter in the universe to hold the 'truths" about our existance to be true...I dont doubt the model works but realise it is based on stuff we just dont know about and we invented things to glue it together...all 92% of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike pulcinella View Post
    My apologies. I did not realize that English was not your language. In that case I commend you for writing as well as you do. There are many English speakers who do not write nearly as well!

    To continue...

    You wrote: "And the Bible actually teaches that there is no plan..."

    Then why when someone dies for whom we have been praying to live, do people often say, "We don't know God's plan"? Is that an incorrect way of thinking?
    Last edited by reentry; 05-06-2009 at 04:34 PM. Reason: spelling

  14. #14
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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Thanks Jag.
    I though it funny about you using "what planet are you living on !" because if it was small enough you could actually ignore the laws of gravity to a large extent.

    I think the difference of opinion is in the use of your word dominance, it might be better replaced by the word acceptance..
    I agree however on the ignoring the physics laws on Earth though , although we can chose to ignore them but there are ramifications...however you do have free will to chose this.. not particularly smart to do so..but you do have the free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    What planet are you living on? We are not free to ignore the laws of gravity. You cannot just hover in mid air because you chose not to believe in gravity. Gravity exists for all of us. We are all bound to gravity whether you choose to or not.

    You cannot have freedom from gravity just as you can't have freedom from the dominance of your God (if you believe in him)
    Last edited by reentry; 05-06-2009 at 04:35 PM.

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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by reentry View Post
    Whoops , must be lost in translation...I have previously been told I do tend to speak funny when I have to speak English...not my native tounge, no disrepect intended.
    I usually get away with it...
    But yes you have chosen to write...
    And the Bible actually teaches that there is no plan...only guidance...we are blessed and get to chose our own destiny, a great honour and responsibilty...
    Sorry Terry, youre right of course in physical things but my uderstanding was that this is about free will not existing in a person of religious beliefs.

    Just my understanding of it,
    OK!! ley me get this state!! english is NOT your native language and you got all over MY CASE because of how you UNDERSTOOD what i said!?....nevermind....i just had a flashback of incredulousness!? carry on.....were all in it together....YOU'D THUNK!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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    Re: Classic religious scam: The concept of Free Wi

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You're welcome. You are one of few who would appreciate it.
    oh right,he kisses your ARSE so i'm a inquiring/combative loser!? well there ya go!? it's ALL about AGREEMENT!? :freak3: :spin2: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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