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  1. #1
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    Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Obama got elected with the promise to cut taxes for 95% of Americans. Only the rich would be punished right?
    This week the Obama administration released its plan to implement a carbon tax. It was reported on multiple news outlets that this tax would increase home utility bills by $700 to $1400 per year. In addition almost anything you buy will cost more. How do you like your tax break now!

  2. #2
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Welcome to the wonderful world of democratic economic policies...

    Get your check books out.

  3. #3
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Yeah, this is what the liberal scum in the USA wanted - a black president - enjoy it!!!!! :

  4. #4
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Reduction of the production greenhouse gasses on the the planet comes at a cost.

    If you don't like it, you'll have to choke on it, literally!


    Regardless of what you believe about global warming this policy is not going to help. What will happen is that Industries will have yet another incentive to move their operations to countries that offer a better envioronment for their businesses. Places like China where they probably create twice as much pollution for the same amount of power. More Americans will loose their jobs and paychecks making it even harder for them to pay their utility bills. This has to be the most regressive tax policy I have ever seen. The poorer you are the more it impacts you. Central control of the economy does not work. The law of unintended consequences always applies.
    Last edited by cirussell; 03-05-2009 at 08:13 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
    Regardless of what you believe about global warming this policy is not going to help. What will happen is that Industries will have yet another incentive to move their operations to countries that offer a better envioronment for their businesses. Places like China where they probably create twice as much pollution for the same amount of power. More Americans will loose their jobs and paychecks making it even harder for them to pay their utility bills. This has to be the most regressive tax policy I have ever seen. The poorer you are the more it impacts you. Central control of the economy does not work. The law of unintended consequences always applies.
    China is also doing more for the environment in terms of carbon credits than any other country in the world, and does that affect the cost of utilities to the Chinese? You bet it does. China is expecting 8% growth this financial year. Who's doing it wrong? Them or us?

    http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/203293.htm

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...dunFAD96NSHM80

    So, do we continue to carelessly pump millions of tons pollution into the atmosphere without taking responsibility for future generations?

    Thinking about the effects of economic decisions in the short term leaves no hope for the future. Especially where the decisions are made with regard to sustainability of the air we breathe.

  6. #6
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by catch-22 View Post
    China is also doing more for the environment in terms of carbon credits than any other country in the world, and does that affect the cost of utilities to the Chinese? You bet it does. China is expecting 8% growth this financial year. Who's doing it wrong? Them or us?

    http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/203293.htm

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...dunFAD96NSHM80

    So, do we continue to carelessly pump millions of tons pollution into the atmosphere without taking responsibility for future generations?

    Thinking about the effects of economic decisions in the short term leaves no hope for the future. Especially where the decisions are made with regard to sustainability of the air we breathe.
    The article you posted says that developed countries (like us) can help undeveloped countries (like China) reduce the pollution the undeveloped country is creating rather than reducing pollution in the developed country because it is cheaper to reduce pollution in the undeveloped country because they create so much of it. So we are supposed to allow all of our manufacturing jobs to be done in China and then help them reduce the pollution they create in doing it? And this makes sense to you?

  7. #7
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
    The article you posted says that developed countries (like us) can help undeveloped countries (like China) reduce the pollution the undeveloped country is creating rather than reducing pollution in the developed country because it is cheaper to reduce pollution in the undeveloped country because they create so much of it. So we are supposed to allow all of our manufacturing jobs to be done in China and then help them reduce the pollution they create in doing it? And this makes sense to you?
    I don't fully understand what you're getting at.
    Who suggested that all of our manufacturing jobs will be done in China?

    We're not helping China reduce their pollution. They're doing it by themselves and at the same time they're cornering the Carbon Credit market.

    According to the first article the US creates more pollution (Greenhouse gases) than China does. By your logic above it should be cheaper to reduce pollution in the US because we make so much of it.

    The fact is that if China can produce goods at a lower cost to both consumers and the environment, then that's where people will buy.

  8. #8
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by catch-22 View Post
    I don't fully understand what you're getting at.
    Who suggested that all of our manufacturing jobs will be done in China?

    We're not helping China reduce their pollution. They're doing it by themselves and at the same time they're cornering the Carbon Credit market.

    According to the first article the US creates more pollution (Greenhouse gases) than China does. By your logic above it should be cheaper to reduce pollution in the US because we make so much of it.

    The fact is that if China can produce goods at a lower cost to both consumers and the environment, then that's where people will buy.
    From your source....As a developing country China is not obligated to meet targets set by the Protocol, but under the clean development mechanism (CDM) it can provide so called carbon credits to developed countries if they invest in projects that help reduce carbon emissions in China......

    The point of this is that China being an undevelped country can provide a carbon credit to a developed country so the developed country can pay for a project to reduce emmissions in China and take credit for the reduction under the protocol. You can't see how this is an negative incentive for developed countries and a positive incentive for undeveloped countries? I do realize that we don't currently participate in this maddness but if we tax energy as Obama has proposed it will create yet another incentive for business to look for cheep labor and power. China is not a evironmental place to do business. Don't you remember the Olympics where they had to shut down everything for weeks before the TV cameras arrived just so the air would not be so brown you couldn't see. The athletes getting off the planes with mask ?

    The original point of this thread was that Obama made a promise to cut taxes for 95% of americans. By taxing carbon he wil actually raise taxes for everyone. The poorest will be impacted disproportionately. He is deceptive. I think your real point is that the ends justifies the means and I disagree and furthermore don't think you or Obama even understand the ends.
    Last edited by cirussell; 03-06-2009 at 06:09 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Reduction of the production greenhouse gasses on the the planet comes at a cost.

    If you don't like it, you'll have to choke on it, literally!

    Are people really going to heat their homes less or use less electricity? Or is big brother just going to pull in more money?

  10. #10
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    The original purpose of carbon credits was to allow industries which produce pollutants when providing their services to invest in pollution reduction technology while at the same time increasing their production to keep up with demand.

    So, no, people are going to be using more and more heating and electricity. We, as inhabitants of the planet just need to find ways of reducing the impact of those increases on the environment.

    Without increasing charges to allow for the investment in cleaner technology, the cost would be far higher and the consequences more far reaching than the effects of the increases.

    Those increases in charges, today, have been made neccessary because of the ignorance and inaction of previous governments and their failure to embrace the principles of carbon credits since their inception in the early 1990's.

    You can't blame Obama for having the guts to finally do something about the inevitibility of having to make hard decisions in regard to this planets' future sustainability.

    The US is, after all, doing more damage to our environment than anyone else as it is. Failure to something about it now will only see that damage increased exponentially.

    I, for one do not want that and I'm prepared to pay whatever cost to see that it does not happen.

    And so should you.
    Let's put this in perspective, it's 100% BS.

    There is no clear agreement in the scientific community for the real cause of the environmental changes we are seeing.
    There currently is no way to actually measure the effects of any efforts to control emissions.

    What this really is, is a way to trumpet the tax cuts for the poor and middle class, which are aren't going to happen anyway, while providing access to your money in a different manner.

    Even worse, is that fact that this has already been tried and due to what will undoubtedly happen here, failed miserably and caused higher energy costs.

    Mr. Obama will use this legislation to implement further control, while allowing loop holes for those he deems worthy, read as donated to his campaign.

    So, in the end, it's going to do nothing towards accomplishing the stated goal, but will rather provide another lever for Mr Obama to use in solidifying the democratic position and another method to directly access your former assets.

  11. #11
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    I'm not sure your perspective reaches much past what you hear on the nightly news or what you read on your typical inti-any-government.com website.

    Here are some of the main scientific community websites which categorically agree that global warming is a by-product of pollution caused by humans.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2143744.htm
    http://www.nwf.org/news/story.cfm?pa...79E15CCE878B37
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...warming02.html
    http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Retail...te-instab.html
    http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c02c.html
    http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/f101.asp
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0813162438.htm
    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2510740.htm
    http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/art...deat-2009-03-0

    You need to widen your horizons!

    How stupid is this?

    http://environmentalchemistry.com/yo...alwarming.html

    Don't whinge to me that you poor bastards have to pay more for your power. Complain to the car manufacturers and power producers.
    Gday mate! Hope things are going well in Australia. I checked out your scientific community sites wasn't aware that ABC News was one of them thar scientific sites. But seriously the issue of global warming being caused by power plants is hardly a scientific fact. You are probably aware that the Vikings in the 800 AD time frame were actually able to make a living in Greenland by farming and the waters were open to trade. I haven't been to Greenland lately but I'm pretty sure that couldn't happen today because of all the ice. So obviously the earth gets warmer and then gets cooler for reasons that we don't fully understand. People who love power will use any excuse to exercise that power. It is my belief that that's whats going on here with the carbon tax. If Al Gore really believed that the planet was being destroyed by CO2 would he really run around the globe leaving a carbon footprint that would make Big Foot proud?

  12. #12
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Tax cuts... Hahahaha!!! Why do you people (especially liberals) swallow this stuff?

    There are no tax cuts for anyone, in fact the middle and lower class will pay the most in tax increases as usual. Yes thats right, they will pay the most. Why?

    "Tax the Rich!!! Tax the Rich!!" - How many times you hear that crap? Oh, its gets Americans blood boiling doesnt it? Friggin rich people!!! Class warfare!!!! We want what they have! They ruin everything.

    Funny though... Politicians who are liberal ARE the rich yet they want to tax themselves more? Uh no.

    Rich people own things. Like Companies. They employ millions. Rich people dont become rich by bieng morons. So raise their taxes and they dont simply say "Gee, too bad" No, they simply raise their prices to cover the new tax which effectively passes the tax hike to.... Drum roll.... YOU.

    Carbon tax? Who pays for it? YOU.

    You really want to stimulate the economy and get things rolling? Tax cuts for EVERYONE. Rich, middle and poor. Massive ones. Rich people want one thing... More money. They wont throw the money in their pockets, it doesnt make them more money... They will invest it in their Companies, new divisions, new R&D, new aquisitions = J.O.B.S.

    Come on people, this is Business 101. Why is Obama not seeing this? Liberals are for bigger government and control. They dont want Rich people, they want rich government, period.

  13. #13
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Code blue......50cc's of mogadon to the psycho ward....stat!
    I will take that response as a sign that this discussion is a little over your head.

  14. #14
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleP View Post
    I will take that response as a sign that this discussion is a little over your head.
    Hey PP take it easy on our mate. I'm sure it's hard to think straight with all of that heat we're causing.

  15. #15
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    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    Quote Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
    Hey PP take it easy on our mate. I'm sure it's hard to think straight with all of that heat we're causing.
    Hehe... I will take it easy on him, I promise.

    :

  16. #16

    Re: Obama has deceived the 95% on tax cut

    First of all, how do you give tax cuts to people that dont pay taxes?

    Second, Cap and trade is just another way to redistribute wealth, and continue Obama's socialist agenda

    Its sad to see whats happening to our great Country

    Watch this and tell me if you think now is good time to pursue this nonsense

    I mean isnt co2 air?






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