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  1. #1
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    Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Scam Of All Time!

    Ok,

    Let's open up this can of worms, no pun intended since the valley of Gehenna and the worm dieing not is commonly used to promote the idea of eternal torment in literal fire.

    First of all let me just state my position that hell is the old english word for concealing or burying in the ground such as helling potatoes for the winter.

    Since sheol in hebrew and hades in greek were used to convey the grave or concealment the KJV used the english hell when translating both.

    Gehenna and Tartarus in the greek were both translated hell without any real reason except for preconceived doctrinal positions.

    VERY IMPORTANT NOTE
    :

    As a believer in the original Bible as written I do however believe in judgment.

    Judgment is actually occuring right now to one extent or another for all of us and particularly in a efficatious way for the "house of God" now. (I Pet. 4:16-17)

    These very elect will judge the world. Now what do you think the Bible means by this? They are going to say your in and your out? etc.

    Why would judgment mean one thing for the elect and something completely different for the rest of God's creation?

    Judgment corrects the elect now, and I believe I can prove it will correct the rest of God's Creation in the symbolic "Lake of Fire".

    Remember, the elect are now being judged and refined by fire. Mal. and Matt. 5 & 6 , I Cor. 3:13, I Pet. 4:12 etc etc.

    It just amazes me that supposed orthodox Christians can claim to be literalists and then believe the word fire means one thing for them and something completely opposite when it comes to the rest of God's Creation!

    Not to mention the vast majority of humanity who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ for that matter.

    Are you ready to learn the truth?

    Are you ready to support your position?

    Better bring your best stuff. LOL

    When you present the character of the Creator of the Universe in such a way as He has no other choice but to abide by your carnal decision to ignore his salvation even though it is your natural nature to do so and is therefore forced to burn you in literal fire without hope of ever being corrected you better get ready for correction from this supporter of the sovereignty of God.

    Well I guess I probably got some of your attention so I await your response.

    Zac
    Last edited by Zacman; 02-17-2009 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Yes, I agree it is a scam. No arguement from me

  3. #3
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Yes, I agree it is a scam. No arguement from me
    Great Terry,

    Stick around it will get worse before it gets better.

    I'm sure there are some of the "orthodox" literalists who will want to defend their position.

    It's one of the reasons I started this thread.

    I will be very interested in their arguments in favor of eternal torment theology.

    Like their God couldn't come up with a better plan.

    Let's see,
    Zac

  4. #4
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    I agree its a Scam but its all part of the plan as crazy as it sounds.:rasta:
    #1 Site for Self-DiscoveryClick here.

  5. #5
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    The whole "fire in the hell" came from ancient Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions.

  6. #6
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyh05 View Post
    I agree its a Scam but its all part of the plan as crazy as it sounds.:rasta:
    You are exactly right!

    It's part of the "great delusion" God has sent to those who do not have a love of the truth.

    I like the way you all think around here!

    Best wishes,
    Zac

  7. #7
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
    The whole "fire in the hell" came from ancient Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions.
    Yes, originally the Egyptians and then "borrowed" by the Greeks and then passed on to the Romans via Constantine and Augustine.

    Were are all the fire and brimstone orthodox zealots?

    Hmmmm, maybe there are not as many around here as I thought.:1crysad:

    Cheers,
    Zac
    P.S. I'll check back this evening to see if we have any takers.
    Last edited by Zacman; 02-18-2009 at 10:09 AM. Reason: additional comment

  8. #8
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    Yes, originally the Egyptians and then "borrowed" by the Greeks and then passed on to the Romans via Constantine and Augustine.

    Were are all the fire and brimstone orthodox zealots?

    Hmmmm, maybe there are not as many around here as I thought.:1crysad:

    Cheers,
    Zac
    P.S. I'll check back this evening to see if we have any takers.
    Actually I had read that Etruscans, who inhabited the area of Rome before the empire came along, had the doctrine of hell and torments, which was written about by Dante, who had a profound influence on the catholic church. A doctrine like that would work quite well for any religion that wished to control the masses.

    As for judging the "elect", I am in agreement with your idea, but the "elect" have no way of proving who they are. If there is a judgement going on, then God himself is doing both the 'electing" and the judging, and we have little choice in the matter. However, in believing that, I know I'm free from religious crap, so I live as near morally perfect as i can without having to follow any prescriptions of men.

  9. #9
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    Great Terry,

    Stick around it will get worse before it gets better.

    I'm sure there are some of the "orthodox" literalists who will want to defend their position.

    It's one of the reasons I started this thread.

    I will be very interested in their arguments in favor of eternal torment theology.

    Like their God couldn't come up with a better plan.

    Let's see,
    Zac
    Just curious, you looking for a fight or to discuss. Kinda sounds that way to me.

  10. #10
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    I will be very interested in their arguments in favor of eternal torment theology.
    Did you know there were 2 Apocalytic books written? The Apocalypse of John, we know this as the book of Revelation.

    The Apocalypse of Peter tells a quite different story. This book was left out of the current version of the Bible. I would guess because it goes against what the church wanted to teach. The Church keeps its power with the threat of eternal damnation. The Apocalypse of Peter says people get judged according to their sins and spends different times in "hell" then they are allowed into heaven. Basically, every sin is treated like a crime and you do your time and then you're let up into heaven. Not really the message the church wants to send though.

  11. #11
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by terry05_99 View Post
    Just curious, you looking for a fight or to discuss. Kinda sounds that way to me.
    I apologize if I come across that way, It's just I am so passionate about this issue as I believe it portrays the very Character of God exactly the opposite of His true Character.

    If you would like to defend Literal Hell Fire and the doctrine of eternal torment in any way or variation thereof please feel free.

    I will try my best not to be insulting or come across as in with bad intentions even though forums posts are sometimes read differently than the writer intended etc.

    Zac

  12. #12
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
    Did you know there were 2 Apocalytic books written? The Apocalypse of John, we know this as the book of Revelation.
    .
    Big Slick,

    I abbreviated your quote. Let me just say, I applaud your stance on the inaccuracy of the eternal torment doctrine.

    The idea that we are punished for so much sin before going to "heaven" however is a bit off subject and I will have to point something out in this regard.

    NOTE:

    The is no such literal place in the universe somewhere as most people believe called heaven.

    And we are never told we will be in such a place. (either immediately upon death or after resurrection etc.)

    Now, as far as who the elect are, listen even the great apostle Paul wrote he kept himself in submission to God unless after preaching to others he himself might be a castaway. (in need of further judgment) 1 cor.9:27

    Ok, a few nibbles here but no bites.

    Hmmmm I know there are some ETs here.

    Ok, I'll be honest I want to expose you and the fallacy of the ET doctrine.

    I would also like this to expand into the direction of showing the Love of God and His original plan for mankind to be made, (an ongoing process) into His image.

    Cheers,
    Zac

  13. #13
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    NOTE:

    The is no such literal place in the universe somewhere as most people believe called heaven.

    And we are never told we will be in such a place. (either immediately upon death or after resurrection etc.)
    I know, I understand that. I was just illustrating the opposing views of the two books in which one was chosen because it reinforced the power of the church while the other gets conveniently ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    Now, as far as who the elect are, listen even the great apostle Paul wrote he kept himself in submission to God unless after preaching to others he himself might be a castaway. (in need of further judgment) 1 cor.9:27
    This is for another threat but I wanted to throw this out there for thought.

    You said "great apostle Paul"...was he really an apostle? Anyone can claim they're apostle right, that doesn't make it true. Paul the only self proclaimed apostle...

  14. #14
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
    I know, I understand that. I was just illustrating the opposing views of the two books in which one was chosen because it reinforced the power of the church while the other gets conveniently ignored.



    This is for another threat but I wanted to throw this out there for thought.

    You said "great apostle Paul"...was he really an apostle? Anyone can claim they're apostle right, that doesn't make it true. Paul the only self proclaimed apostle...
    Anyone can claim him/her self an apostle, just as over 30,000 denominations of christianity can claim themselves God's true church. The problem is, there is no proven authority for such a claim.

    Was Paul correct in his teaching? Well, he said the carnal(natural, biological) mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to God. If that is true, then we would have just the variety of cults, sects, and denominations within christianity that we see today. Any attempt to organize in the name of Christ would rpoduce ever more divisions, since, as Madison pointed out about government, our reason would collide with our self-love and passion, and we would seek to justify ourselves before God by organizing according to our personal definitions of God.

    Further, Paul pointed out that humans are incapable of making such decisions as to organize in God's name, because God foreknows and predestines those whom he calls(Romans 8:29-30).

    Now, how in the world could the idea of predestination be consistent with freedom? Because if no man can organize in God's name, and if God already knows his children, we are completely free from all doctrines and religions created by men, not to mention the governments of men.

    You can't be free from God, since you can't even define God. We aren't even sure there is a God, and neither is anyoe else in the world. So, Paul has eliminated the power of religious organizations who claim to represent God. That is exactly what Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 24 when he warned against deception. If there are over 30,000 versions of christianity, and if the natural mind cannot be subject to God, there exists one, and only one, corect choice to make: choose none of them, which is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 24:23.

    The teachings of Jesus, and Paul, and the disciples, plainly set us free from all organizational powers of men, but they held us to assume responsibility for our acts toward others. Jesus set the highest ideal of love, but there is no law needed to regulate love(unless we extend "love" to mean rape and molestation. That needs laws and regulation).

    You may automatically rejrect this, based on what religions have told you, but try defining a doctrine that accurately represents God. You will find that it falls short of complete truth. That's why there are so many ideas of God. If there is an infinite God, all ideas will tend toward infinity of interpretations.

    Of comparative interest, there is also Godel's theorem, which tells us that it is impossible to totally package all truth into one logical, rational, finite system of thought. So, whether we seek God or truth, the tendency will be toward a continual speciation opf ideas about God or truth, guaranteeing freedom as people are left free to explore those ideas.

    No government can represent all truth, and no religion can represent all truth.

  15. #15
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacman View Post
    I apologize if I come across that way, It's just I am so passionate about this issue as I believe it portrays the very Character of God exactly the opposite of His true Character.

    If you would like to defend Literal Hell Fire and the doctrine of eternal torment in any way or variation thereof please feel free.

    I will try my best not to be insulting or come across as in with bad intentions even though forums posts are sometimes read differently than the writer intended etc.

    Zac
    No need to apoligize to me, it was just an observation. I find it hard to read someones face on this thing. I believe you are sincere.

    I do not believe in hellfire as a place of torment. I look at the first man Adam and Eve, when sinning God said in that day they would die. Never did he say they would go to hell and suffer eternally. I would think that in a "landmark" case, if it was God's intention that they suffer in a fiery hell he would have mentioned that.

    Just my thought. Not like Im some expert

  16. #16
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    Re: Literal Hell Fire The Biggest Lie Of All Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    Anyone can claim him/her self an apostle, just as over 30,000 denominations of christianity can claim themselves God's true church. The problem is, there is no proven authority for such a claim.

    No government can represent all truth, and no religion can represent all truth.
    Doojie,

    I abbreviated your comments for obvious reasons ;) And do want to try and keep this from going off topic.

    OK, I used the title Apostle for Paul just to make it clear who I was talking about and I don't think it is productive to go off on other issues which really aren't that important.

    And of course no gov. or religion presents the whole truth.

    I think the bible is written in such a way as.... well who was it Al Paceino who said, the truth, you can't handle the truth!

    The bible is chuck full of metaphors, symbolism, parables, not to mention prophecies and anthrophomorphic expressions that are simply not understandable my the human mind.

    God is Spirit. His words are Spirit. We understand what He wants use to understand.

    Yes He chooses whom He will save (the elect) during this eon, and how the rest of us will be judged (corrected in future ages).

    Does that absolve any responsibility on our part? Can we just live however we want if this is the case?

    Go for it dude or dudess, if that is your attitude then I feel for you.

    But wait, that is exactly the attitude I have received from pastors and leaders in the orthodox churches for years!

    Yes, they have told me personally that well if all will eventually be saved then why not just live the way we want. Cheat on our wives, get drunk etc etc.

    Wow, exposes their true incentive to supposedly follow God doesn't it?

    And then there are the others, well I might be able to agree with you ...kind of...maybe...but just to be on the safe side I'm sticking with my position that you have to be saved now and everyone else is going to burn in literal fire for all eternity without hope of ever being corrected etc just in case!

    Which of course exposes their motive for being "born again" just to get into what they believe is a literal heaven somewhere in the universe somewhere. LOL

    Even though they know it is likely they are distorting the very character of God into a gross sadist!

    Oh, brother is this crazy or what? And to think that nearly 2 Billion people think this way!

    Wait, let's make it over half the world nearly 4 billion think this way because actually there is not much difference in the outcome of the major religions of the world when it comes to eternal torment.

    Unbelievable. Well I've had my rant for the night.

    Is there any of you literalist orthodox Christian "born agains" that want to defend your heresy?

    Sorry for my sarcasm I am obviously in the wrong place to attract hell fire and brimstone defenders.

    Cheers,
    Zac
    Last edited by Zacman; 02-19-2009 at 04:56 PM.

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