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  1. #49
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    I respect your position and thank you for not being as judgemental as most other extreme fanatics. The only problem with a debate is that in a debate people make points and counterpoints.

    I'm sorry that some people don't have some of the patience I have with dealing with your points.

    I'll accept that you can believe that Jesus came down and did all kinds of magic tricks - healings etc.

    You have to admit though that some of this is just TOO hard to believe. The bible contradicts itself over TWO HUNDRED TIMES that I have found so far. Two hundred different issues are played to one side in some books and the other in other books.

    Here is a compiled list:
    http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

    and but one example from this list:

    Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
    preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
    - Mark 1:14

    After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea... and John was also baptizing Enon... for John was not yet cast into prison.
    - John 3:22-24

    Now for MOST christians, if I recall, Mathew Mark, Luke and John are the 4 most treasured books int the collection. Here we see one book DIRECTLY contradicting another. Which one is correct? Who knows? to figure this out, you have to disbelieve one book or the other.

    I have no problem with you believeing that some magical half-god came and healed some people, but how can you believe a book that calls itself a lier and has no real proof?
    Ok - I will start to go thru your list of contradictions from the website.
    I started on the last one first and the one you listed..

    1-
    mark 1:14 compared with John 3:22-24...
    Somehow the person comparing these two scriptures must
    have thought Galilee and Land of Judea is the same place - but it is not. In Roman times that region was divided into 3 areas Judea, Samaria and Galilee. so what happens in Mark was at a different time
    that at John 3.

    2- Matther 27:34 vs Mark 15:23

    mingled with gall vs myrrh...
    gall is defined as a "bitter liquid" it is not a specific type of liquid rather a general term. Myrrh could be considered gall.

    3- Mark 25:3-4 vs John 19: 14-15

    MArk says in the third hour ( say 9am) is when they actually crucified him
    but John is saying the sixth hour - meaning at what time they
    were talking about considering crucifying him not actually crucifying him.

    4- Matthew 11:14 vs John1 :21

    In MAtthew - the three versions i checked said "the Elijah"
    meaning a prophet.. you do not have "the" infront of a persons name.
    so no John the Baptist was not Elijah rather he was a prophet like
    Elijah

    5- Mark 3 :29 vs Hebrews 12:6

    never forgive relates to the people that believe in God
    and choose not to follow him versus -- Satan does believe in
    God but chooses not to follow - thereby he will never be forgiven.
    Hebrews is talking about Satan..
    while the other passages are talking about believers in JEsus

    6- A brother that takes his brother's wife is unclean
    Proverbs 12:21 deut 25:5

    dueteronomy refers to adultery .. versus Proverbs refers back in their culture when a brother dies it is the other brothers duty to
    marry the widow...

    7- Matthew 28:18 vs MArk 6:5

    All power is given to Jesus in heaven and earth -- but he will not
    display his power to the non-believers mentioned in Mark 6:5

    8- 2 Sam 24:1 and chronicles 21:1

    Satan and God both asked for a numbering to take
    but this appears to be at 2 different times

    9- 2 Samuel 6:23 vs 2 Samuel 21:8

    daughters of SAul.. Michal did not have any sons...( 6:23)
    but Merab did ( in some Bible lists the name Michal and others lists
    Merab) Merab was married to Adriel and Michal was not.

    10- Galatains 4:22 - Abraham had two sons...
    vs Hebrews 11:17 yes there were two sons -- but only
    one begotten ( meaning promised ) son...

    11- Acts 9:7 vs Acts 22:9

    First the name is Saul not Paul
    they all heard a voice and light - but did not see a man...so both
    scriptures are accurate in their descriptions

    12-
    Romans 14:14
    vs Deut 14:7

    The limiting of what you eat was set forth to the Israelites..
    to set them apart..
    In Acts 10:15 Peter had a vison that changed that...
    "do not call impure that God makes clean"

    13- Sabbath day as holy-- 6 days work - one day rest and worship.
    What day of the week did God start his week?
    We do not know that ..
    as long as 6 days work and one day holy you are
    recognizing the sabbath

    and Romans 14:5 states ... One man esteemeth one day above another.. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind

    phew one more for now
    14-
    the first one listed..

    Genesis 1:31
    versus Genesis 6:6

    Near the beginning God was satisfied with his work and said it was good... but by Genesis 6:6 sin had entered the world...
    So it would make sense that God would be grieved, have a heart of pain and not be satisfied. There is no contradiction there..

    Wow - talk about alot of homework..
    I can keep going -- or if you are tired of it .. and get the point
    I shall rest on this contradiction issue for now..

    Then i want to address why i choose Christainity over
    atheism, Islam .. and so forth..

    BTL

  2. #50
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Originally posted by Lord_Jag

    In laymans : As brainwashing and group comradery started to kick in I started to buy the nonsense

    When I chose to study the Bible, those who studied with me did not tell me what the Bible was saying and teaching. They helped me by sharing with me where to begin reading and to write down any questions I might have. They as well encouraged me to spend time in prayer before reading the scriptures asking for God’s help in understanding the scriptures. They also encouraged me to learn to spend time daily reading God’s word and spend time in prayer. Each time we would get together we would go back over the scriptures I had read and prayed about and those studying with me would ask what I was learning and what the scriptures were teaching me. Each time we would get together we would always begin and end with prayer asking for God’s guidance thru his Holy Spirit and there would always be prayers specifically for me. Those
    studying with me encouraged me by telling me that they were in constantly in prayer for me. During the early part of the studies I still had that strong atheistic mind set and as time went on I found that that was slowly changing. I found that the more I read God’s word and the more I prayed the greater my desire became to want more of God’s word and to pray.

    (John 12: 49)
    49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

    (1 Cor 2: 13 – 14)
    13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Here in (John 12:49) Jesus tells us that everything that he spoke came his Father who was God, and that he spoke what God commanded him to say and How to say it . It was not of himself thru human wisdom (or human understanding).

    In (1 Cor 2: 13 –14) - Paul tells us that what they spoke was not taught by human wisdom, but words taught by the spirit,(God’s Holy Spirit). Paul also says that the man without the spirit does not accept the things that came from the Spirit of God (The Bible – the scriptures) Paul tells us that without God’s Holy Spirit (the Bible, the scriptures) are foolishness and that man cannot understand them. Paul also tells us that the scriptures can only be spiritually discerned. Spiritual discernment is God’s wisdom given thru His Holy Spirit. The difference in the understanding of human wisdom and God’s
    wisdom is that they are 180 degrees opposite each other.

    So my question becomes are you guided by God’s Holy Spirit and spiritual discernment or totally by human wisdom and if you are being led by God’s Holy Spirit how did you receive it?

    So If you are correct and I am brainwashed as you suggest, then I have been brainwashes and totally deceived by God or I brainwashed myself and deceived myself into believing something that is totally evil and contradictory.

    djthedj

  3. #51
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthedj
    When I chose to study the Bible, those who studied with me did not tell me what the Bible was saying and teaching. They helped me by sharing with me where to begin reading and to write down any questions I might have. They as well encouraged me to spend time in prayer before reading the scriptures asking for God’s help in understanding the scriptures. They also encouraged me to learn to spend time daily reading God’s word and spend time in prayer. Each time we would get together we would go back over the scriptures I had read and prayed about and those studying with me would ask what I was learning and what the scriptures were teaching me. Each time we would get together we would always begin and end with prayer asking for God’s guidance thru his Holy Spirit and there would always be prayers specifically for me. Those
    studying with me encouraged me by telling me that they were in constantly in prayer for me. During the early part of the studies I still had that strong atheistic mind set and as time went on I found that that was slowly changing. I found that the more I read God’s word and the more I prayed the greater my desire became to want more of God’s word and to pray.

    (John 12: 49)
    49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

    (1 Cor 2: 13 – 14)
    13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Here in (John 12:49) Jesus tells us that everything that he spoke came his Father who was God, and that he spoke what God commanded him to say and How to say it . It was not of himself thru human wisdom (or human understanding).

    In (1 Cor 2: 13 –14) - Paul tells us that what they spoke was not taught by human wisdom, but words taught by the spirit,(God’s Holy Spirit). Paul also says that the man without the spirit does not accept the things that came from the Spirit of God (The Bible – the scriptures) Paul tells us that without God’s Holy Spirit (the Bible, the scriptures) are foolishness and that man cannot understand them. Paul also tells us that the scriptures can only be spiritually discerned. Spiritual discernment is God’s wisdom given thru His Holy Spirit. The difference in the understanding of human wisdom and God’s
    wisdom is that they are 180 degrees opposite each other.

    So my question becomes are you guided by God’s Holy Spirit and spiritual discernment or totally by human wisdom and if you are being led by God’s Holy Spirit how did you receive it?

    So If you are correct and I am brainwashed as you suggest, then I have been brainwashes and totally deceived by God or I brainwashed myself and deceived myself into believing something that is totally evil and contradictory.

    djthedj
    Hey DJ
    I am so glad you are looking for and responding to the Holy Spirit's guidance
    ..finally someone that makes sense "to me".

    BTL

  4. #52
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    originally posted by bethelight
    I am so glad you are looking for and responding to the Holy Spirit's guidance
    Thanks for the encouragement and also for your ongoing dialog with Lord_Jag.

    I actually find that I am very encouraged to have Lord_Jag on the thread, because he has a different opinion and beliefs.It reminds me of the Biblical scripture of iron shapening iron.His responses have helped me to think more deeply about my own christianity as well as to how to respond without being judgemental or critical, allowing him to share his beliefs knowledge and understanding so that we all grow in who we are. I hope that what we have posted has been as beneficial to him as he has been for us.
    Are you going to do any more homework with the Bible contradictions, if so maybe I can help.


    djthedj

  5. #53
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthedj
    Thanks for the encouragement and also for your ongoing dialog with Lord_Jag.

    I actually find that I am very encouraged to have Lord_Jag on the thread, because he has a different opinion and beliefs.It reminds me of the Biblical scripture of iron shapening iron.His responses have helped me to think more deeply about my own christianity as well as to how to respond without being judgemental or critical, allowing him to share his beliefs knowledge and understanding so that we all grow in who we are. I hope that what we have posted has been as beneficial to him as he has been for us.
    Are you going to do any more homework with the Bible contradictions, if so maybe I can help.


    djthedj
    yes please do some homework for me ...
    I think i have got to wean myself of this thread..
    I sometimes find myself arguing with "Christians" - where
    there replies get nasty and i start to slide down with them..

    Yes - I think Lord Jag posts have been more open minded -- say than mind ( I have a Christian bias) -- but he answer questions and asks new ones
    without insults for the most part...

    Thank you for making this journey of growth with me..
    BTL

  6. #54
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthedj
    Originally posted by Lord_jag



    1Th 5:2 "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."


    Ecc 12:14 "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing whether it is good or evil."


    Mt 12:36 - 37 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


    Ro 2:16 "This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."



    Mt 26:64 “Yes,it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


    Ro 8:5 "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires."


    1Th 5:3 "While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."


    2Th 1:6 - 9 "God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
    :7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."


    Heb 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (This is the Biblical definition of faith)


    I believe what the scriptures above say and teach and I
    agree that in time what I believe or what you believe
    will be proven correct. I hold to what I believe based upon
    the Biblical definition of faith In Hebrews 11:1 above.

    djthedj

    so WTF happened to JOB!?hehe!!you been there,done that!?hehe!!just askin.....ARE YOU!?.......

  7. #55
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Originally posted by Lexx

    So WTF happened to JOB!?hehe!!you been there,done that!?hehe!!just askin.....ARE YOU!?.......
    So what is your take on what happened to Job?

    djthrdj

  8. #56
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthedj
    So what is your take on what happened to Job?

    djthrdj
    well,if you consider jobs standing with god,and then you consider gods decision considering the above,he(job) is then FORCED to be the christ of god!?against his BETTER!? judgement as a man!?and how does this TRANSLATE to WORLD AFFAIRS as we SEE them as MEN!? EVERYDAY!?hehe!!what do YOU THINK!?if i may ask!?hehe!!....i just asked........
    Last edited by lexx; 09-23-2006 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #57
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Originally Posted by Pancho

    Heard of King Josiah.... he's the Jewish king who "found" the Torah or old testament just happened across it one day, as you do, just flicking through old manuscripts and hey presto he stumbles across the definitive "Words of Yahweh".

    Oh I forgot to mention that ole Josiah was hoping to unite the various bands of jews/ israelites with him as their king. It never happened.

    The book was "found" what a coincidence. or did the priests "find" it for a goodly sum of money.

    Josiah of the "House of David" Some other biblical person made that claim as well...mmmmmm his name started with J as well.

    The Reign of King Josiah

    2 KINGS 23
    Josiah's reign (640-609B.C.)
    began during difficult times. His father, Manasseh,
    had been an Assyrian vassal for the
    majority of his reign, all the while undoing
    Hezekiah's reforms and, introducing new
    forms of idolatry to Jerusalem. At age sixteen
    (632 B.C.) Josiah began to seek the Lord and
    to rid Judah of Canaanite and Assyrian cultic
    practices. Assyrian power declined rapidly,
    as did the health of its king, Ashurbanipal.
    During the same period the Neo-Babylonian
    Empire arose under Nabopolassar, who
    united with the Medes against Assyria. Egypt,
    seeking to maintain a balance of power in
    Mesopotamia, allied with Assyria.
    Against this political backdrop Josiah
    began a religious reformation in Judah. Dur-

    ing repairs, to the temple The Book of the Law
    was found by Hilkiah the High Priest.

    The prophetess Huldah predicted
    judgment on Judah, but not during Josiah's
    reign, Josiah humbled himself before the
    Lord and increased his efforts at reformation
    by destroying pagan altars throughout his
    kingdom and centralizing sacrificial worship
    in Jerusalem. His efforts extended to the
    former northern kingdom; because he was
    attempting to reunite all Israel within boundaries
    once held by King David. A covenant
    renewal ceremony and a Passover unlike any
    since the days of the judges were observed.
    Josiah's faithfulness seemed to be rewarded
    as Assyrian cities fell in quick suc-
    cession: Asshur to the Medes (614 B.C.),
    Nineveh to the Babylonians (612 B.C.) and


    Haran to the Babylonians and Medes (610
    B.C.)
    . Egypt's Pharaoh Neco, however, ad-
    vanced to assist the Assyrians at Charchemish
    (609 B.C.). Josiah opposed him at Megiddo
    but was mortally wounded. The failure of Josiah
    was, according to 2 Kings 23:26 - 27,
    not the result of shortcomings on his own part but due
    to the apostasy of the people and of his
    predecessor, Manasseh.


    Josiah, Zechariah and NecoII

    2 CHRONIClES 35 When Josiah, king of
    Judah (640-609 B.C.),made arrangements
    for celebrating the Passover, he and his administrators
    donated vast numbers of ani-.
    maIs to be sacrificed(2 Ch 35:7-9).
    One of the administrators was Zechariah, a temple offi-
    cial (v.8). An ostrocon (broken piece of pot-
    tery with writing on it), purchased on the
    antiquities market in 1974 and now in a private
    collection, includes the names of both Josiah
    and Zechariah. Apparently an order for a royal
    temple offering, it reads, "As Ashyahu the king
    has commanded you to give in the hand
    of Zakaryahu silver of Tarshish for the house
    of Yahweh: three shekels." The name Josiah
    is the English equivalent of Ashyahu in the
    inscription, and Zechariah is the equivalent of
    Zakaryahu.

    In 609 B.C., when Josiah was in his thirty first
    year of rule and still a young man of
    thirty-ninle (2Ki 22:1).. the Egyptian army
    under Pharoh Neco II ( 610 - 595 B.C.)
    marched north to aid the Assyrians in their
    attempt. to stave off the Babylonians.
    Neco II, known from both Egyptian and Bab-·
    ylonian records, was among the stronger of
    ancient Egypt's latter rulers. The Assyrians
    were holding out at Carchemish, a prominent
    city on the Euphrates River (2 Ch 35:20)
    Josiah in an effort to undermine this
    force, who were dominate in the region, tried
    to head off Neco at Megiddo.
    Tragically the Judahite army was defeated
    and Josiah lost his life (vv.21":24).
    Judah then became subject to Neco until
    605 B.C., when the Babylonians defeated the

    Egyptians at Carchemish (Jer 46:2). FoIIowing Josiah's demise, his son Jehoahaz was made
    king. After three months, Neco removed
    him and imposed a hefty tribute on
    Judah' (2Ch 36;1- 3). The Egyptian
    king placed Josiah's eldest son, Jehoiakim, on the
    throne and banished Jehoahaz to Egypt.
    where he lived out the rest of his days (36:4).

    There is a whole family genealogy from Moses to David
    and from David to the birth of Jesus.

    djthedj
    Last edited by djthedj; 09-25-2006 at 05:37 PM.

  10. #58
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by djthedj
    Question - can any individual have a personal relationship with God?

    Buy the way for all - the 1st 46+ years of my life I was a total atheist - Now I am a christian totally by my own choice and decision - How could I go from being a total atheist to becoming
    a christian if not thru an encounter with Jesus. Read Acts Chpt.
    9 - Pauls conversion - his encounter with Jesus on the damascus
    road!
    Dude! Glad to hear that! but more to say about 'decision' but lets set that aside for now -
    what matters is that your IN CHRIST....

  11. #59
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by bethelight
    Hey there Lord JAg...

    Managed to get onto the site - stating the
    "contradictions" of the Bible--
    I am going to work thru all of them and tell you what a i think...
    I have alot of homework ahead...
    I have completed 6 -- and once i have a bit more == i will
    start posting them...

    I have compared them to three different versions of the Bible--
    King James, The message and New International version.

    BTL
    Hello BTL, I really do appreciate your zeal concerning these APPARENT contradictions. There seems to be a number of true believers on these threads, we both know we'll meet them one day...

    And I appreciate your responses...

  12. #60
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    Re: What do you consider the Bible?

    so i guess it comes DOWN or UP to IN CHRIST is the goal for all MEN!?and that a CHALLENGE both to the individual to choose and to those that would HELP those that are LOST!?and as all challenges go,in this life or next!?it comes down to circumstances and places in this world and choices to be made regarding both!?and the meeting is mutual and/or not as it goes!?hehe!!for it all points to a direction and a service and few be they that find it!?for if the 7 churches are found in fault!?what chance does an individual have!?namely this!?comparison by feedback!?for where is god for the beleiver but in the faces and hearts of the lost!?for if the 99 be counted,and the 1 be lost,god is the mourner of that 1!?and to save same is to please gods heart!?hehe!!just askin............

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