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  1. #1

    Sub prime limbo-

    I've been shopping for a refi since December 05 gave out my ss# to so many sweet talkers with grand promises that I'm gonna need to be brainwashed for my stupidtry.

    Irvine California-Is it really the capitol of mortgage shoppers?

    Di Tech? Wow?

    I have about a 570 credit score and do a full doc. Lots of quotes and little notes- good faith estimates and all. Has anyone dealt with Peterson Financial? They've strung me along for three months.

    I read the thread about the application fee- the appraisal should, as the poster said be included.

    Why and how they decide who to appraise is confusing.

    I got a lecture about being a scofflaw with that bad credit and all, but; listen, I have a nice cash flow and my loan to value is great.

    I get the feeling I am using up my ssn to get scammed

  2. #2
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by sucker for a good pitch
    I've been shopping for a refi since December 05 gave out my ss# to so many sweet talkers with grand promises that I'm gonna need to be brainwashed for my stupidtry.

    Irvine California-Is it really the capitol of mortgage shoppers?

    Di Tech? Wow?

    I have about a 570 credit score and do a full doc. Lots of quotes and little notes- good faith estimates and all. Has anyone dealt with Peterson Financial? They've strung me along for three months.

    I read the thread about the application fee- the appraisal should, as the poster said be included.

    Why and how they decide who to appraise is confusing.

    I got a lecture about being a scofflaw with that bad credit and all, but; listen, I have a nice cash flow and my loan to value is great.

    I get the feeling I am using up my ssn to get scammed
    Any living, breathing person can get a loan today, but realize with that credit score you're going to be frustrated or taken advantage of, perhaps both.

    I have made this recommendation to large numbers of people - buying a house may not be the right thing to do until you get your credit score up. To the squaliformes, you are nothing but food and I'm surprised you haven't been through the sub-prime eating machine already.

    FYI - You won't get a legit offer without an appraisal unless the loan underwriter is desperate to get the numbers in for the month and is willing to gamble.

    One other rule of thumb - don't do business with anyone you can't sit down across THEIR desk from to make the deal. Don't do anything at your home. If you can't walk into their place of business and look them in the eye, it is much easier to be taken advantage of.

  3. #3
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Honestly, i am a loan officer and that credit score is not going to get you a very good loan as far as rates go, but you can definately get a loan...interest rates took another hit yesterday so if you are really going to re-fi, the sooner the better because they are expected to have a steady but slow rise throughout the year...feel free to contact me for a free quote, i will not ask for any of your personal information to get you the quote as you already know your credit score. my company has been recognized as "Southern California's Most Dependable Broker" for our accomplishments in 2005. We will let you know everything up front and put it all on paper for you...My first question to all my clients is "What do you expect from your loan officer?" I ask them to name at least 3-4 things to make sure that I provide them with the best service they can possibly get...we are very busy in our office so we will not string you along. good luck...Marcell @ 1 800 993-9676

  4. #4
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by mazisme
    Honestly, i am a loan officer .... we will not string you along. good luck...Marcell @ .....
    With all due respect, Marcell, the problem is you have no control over who will service the loan, and the reality of life is marginal and bad loans end up in the hands of servicers who will, at the earliest opportunity, deliberately run them through the foreclosure grinder if there is enough equity to cover the spread.

    Never forget - a foreclosure creates yet another opportunity for a loan.

    You know how the game is played; until you can prevent a marginal or really bad loan from ending up with someone like EMC Mortgage, Litton Loan or Ocwen, you shouldn't be trying to lure potential victims into the scheme.

  5. #5
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    I am seeing that also. In my county, one of the more affluent counties in the state, the business journal reported that in Sept 05 more than 50% of the generated mtgs that month were interest only loans. They are dumping loans on the market.

    I know someone who is facing foreclosure, Her lender while foreclosing on her just sent her a letter offering her a new refi for LESS than the amount that she is paying now and they are foreclosing on her for . Another gent I know was foreclosed in August of 05. After living on someone else's couch and being told by every apt complex in town that they would not rent to him, Centex Homes sold him a new house $26K home , $1200 down, 10% int. on the first and I think 14 or 16% on the second and he just got job in Jan of 05. Lenders are just dumping paper around here. Not the sign of a healthy real estate market



    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Roy Bean
    Any living, breathing person can get a loan today, but realize with that credit score you're going to be frustrated or taken advantage of, perhaps both.

    I have made this recommendation to large numbers of people - buying a house may not be the right thing to do until you get your credit score up. To the squaliformes, you are nothing but food and I'm surprised you haven't been through the sub-prime eating machine already.

    FYI - You won't get a legit offer without an appraisal unless the loan underwriter is desperate to get the numbers in for the month and is willing to gamble.

    One other rule of thumb - don't do business with anyone you can't sit down across THEIR desk from to make the deal. Don't do anything at your home. If you can't walk into their place of business and look them in the eye, it is much easier to be taken advantage of.

  6. #6
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Roy Bean
    With all due respect, Marcell, the problem is you have no control over who will service the loan, and the reality of life is marginal and bad loans end up in the hands of servicers who will, at the earliest opportunity, deliberately run them through the foreclosure grinder if there is enough equity to cover the spread.
    With all due respect, Judge, I don't care who services the loan. Pay your mortgage on time and there's no discussion. A 570 score? Honestly, I'm not interested in your cashflow. You will get and deserve a high interest rate because you've shown that keeping your money is more important than paying the people who've GIVEN you money. If your money was used for other investments to make you even more money and your credit suffered, then that's just a tradeoff. Hopefully, you made out better for those decisions.

    Regarding the application fee (I didn't read the thread), in no way does an Application fee have to pay for your appraisal. That is up to the mortgage company. I don't charge application fees because I think they stink. HOWEVER, the reality is loan officers often provide a great deal of work on just the POTENTIAL of funding a loan. Borrowers cancel loans all the time and we're stuck not getting a cent for our efforts. Every borrower should pay for the appraisal upfront. Why should I be stuck with your cost if you decide to walk away?

    Look, we provide a great service to this country and any economist worth a damn knows that the only reason this country didn't fall into a depression after 9/11 was because the housing market continued firing on all cylinders artificially propping up the economy.

    Finally, IMHO......there are waaaaayyyyyyy too many mortgage brokers in SoCal. Yes, they're everywhere. I would actually choose to work with an out of state broker than a CA one.(I know I'm gonna get flamed for that) But there are just too many greedy ones.

    Shop around! You've got your credit score. Call 5 brokers directly, give them your score and tell them if you have any open collection items, when they were, and how much. Don't let them pull your credit again. Heck, ask the first guy to fax you your credit report, then give it to the 4 other brokers and tell them not to run it again. (blackout your SS#) Then say "send me a Good Faith Estimate with your best offer" and choose the best one but keep the 2nd best in your back pocket in case you have any problems with the 1st.

  7. #7
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    With all due respect, Judge, I don't care who services the loan. Pay your mortgage on time and there's no discussion.
    Utter BS. Thousands of borrowers who pay on time are run through the scam servicers every month. In some cases it's simply to make sure no one gets hit with being responsible for an illegal loan.
    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    A 570 score? Honestly, I'm not interested in your cashflow. You will get and deserve a high interest rate because you've shown that keeping your money is more important than paying the people who've GIVEN you money.
    More utter BS. The credit "score" is a concoction used to inflate interest rates without having to actually assess the real risk of default.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    If your money was used for other investments to make you even more money and your credit suffered, then that's just a tradeoff. Hopefully, you made out better for those decisions.

    Regarding the application fee (I didn't read the thread), in no way does an Application fee have to pay for your appraisal. That is up to the mortgage company. I don't charge application fees because I think they stink.
    But you do - you just don't call them that.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    HOWEVER, the reality is loan officers often provide a great deal of work on just the POTENTIAL of funding a loan. Borrowers cancel loans all the time and we're stuck not getting a cent for our efforts.
    And like all businesses, you make it up on the ones you do close.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    Every borrower should pay for the appraisal upfront. Why should I be stuck with your cost if you decide to walk away?

    Look, we provide a great service to this country and any economist worth a damn knows that the only reason this country didn't fall into a depression after 9/11 was because the housing market continued firing on all cylinders artificially propping up the economy.
    A great service to this country? Hmmmm. Perhaps you should consider the collateral damage done by predatory lender and servicers before you make stupid statements like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    Finally, IMHO......there are waaaaayyyyyyy too many mortgage brokers in SoCal. Yes, they're everywhere. .
    And what do you suppose the reason for that is? It's called opportunism. And there's nothing wrong with it until it gets so attractive that unscrupulous people get in to take advantage of consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    I would actually choose to work with an out of state broker than a CA one.(I know I'm gonna get flamed for that) But there are just too many greedy ones.
    You just made my point, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    Shop around! You've got your credit score. Call 5 brokers directly, give them your score and tell them if you have any open collection items, when they were, and how much. Don't let them pull your credit again. Heck, ask the first guy to fax you your credit report, then give it to the 4 other brokers and tell them not to run it again. (blackout your SS#) Then say "send me a Good Faith Estimate with your best offer" and choose the best one but keep the 2nd best in your back pocket in case you have any problems with the 1st.
    But none of them will HONESTLY answer the question about whether or not your loan will end up in the hands of a predatory servicer. If they say they can, run away - they can't.

    Brokers know EVERY FORECLOSED LOAN is yet ANOTHER COMMISSION OPPORTUNITY for someone in the business.

  8. #8
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    219

    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    you said:

    You will get and deserve a high interest rate because you've shown that keeping your money is more important than paying the people who've GIVEN you money.

    Nice to see a mtg broker out there who makes insightful assumptions like that. Let me guess do you also chair the annual predator lending conference?



    Quote Originally Posted by scottanthony
    With all due respect, Judge, I don't care who services the loan. Pay your mortgage on time and there's no discussion. A 570 score? Honestly, I'm not interested in your cashflow. You will get and deserve a high interest rate because you've shown that keeping your money is more important than paying the people who've GIVEN you money. If your money was used for other investments to make you even more money and your credit suffered, then that's just a tradeoff. Hopefully, you made out better for those decisions.

    Regarding the application fee (I didn't read the thread), in no way does an Application fee have to pay for your appraisal. That is up to the mortgage company. I don't charge application fees because I think they stink. HOWEVER, the reality is loan officers often provide a great deal of work on just the POTENTIAL of funding a loan. Borrowers cancel loans all the time and we're stuck not getting a cent for our efforts. Every borrower should pay for the appraisal upfront. Why should I be stuck with your cost if you decide to walk away?

    Look, we provide a great service to this country and any economist worth a damn knows that the only reason this country didn't fall into a depression after 9/11 was because the housing market continued firing on all cylinders artificially propping up the economy.

    Finally, IMHO......there are waaaaayyyyyyy too many mortgage brokers in SoCal. Yes, they're everywhere. I would actually choose to work with an out of state broker than a CA one.(I know I'm gonna get flamed for that) But there are just too many greedy ones.

    Shop around! You've got your credit score. Call 5 brokers directly, give them your score and tell them if you have any open collection items, when they were, and how much. Don't let them pull your credit again. Heck, ask the first guy to fax you your credit report, then give it to the 4 other brokers and tell them not to run it again. (blackout your SS#) Then say "send me a Good Faith Estimate with your best offer" and choose the best one but keep the 2nd best in your back pocket in case you have any problems with the 1st.

  9. #9

    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    This morning one of the sub-prime predators had an appraiser wanting COD at my door. I was not at home, but; did speak to the guy. How long is an appraisal good for?

    I must say that in the last three months of shopping around for a refi -my ARM is Q6M-that the routine is nearly identical. The shill, the roper and the insider-the white knight the salvation. The quote from one of you that: "Credit score is a conction to inflate interest rates without actually assessing the ris of default" was right on the the $.

    My cash flow is impeccable and precise and guaranteed-but; the roper beats on me with my 570 credit score. What kind of sap-who's an MD - would refi a principal residence and crap out?




    Yours truly-still shopping and wondering where y bother.

  10. #10
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    Apr 2006
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    7

    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by cigs645
    you said:

    Nice to see a mtg broker out there who makes insightful assumptions like that. Let me guess do you also chair the annual predator lending conference?
    Thanks for the sarcasm. I was being honest. Are you saying somone with a 570 score, late mortgage payments, late consumer payments, etc. deserves the same terms as someone with spotless credit?

    I never said I overcharge. In fact, I charge roughly the same for A-D credit. I'm not expensive and EVERY client has given me a referral. The most yield spread I have ever been paid from a lender was 1 point. "predator lending"??? Right. The only time I ever came close to Section 32 loan was on a 1st mortgage to 100% with a loan amount of $50,000!! You know what I charged to do that purchase?? $500! because I couldn't charge anymore because the client had no downpayment. Oh yeah, you know who got the $500?? My company. I got paid zilch because that's my company cost.

    So before you go halfcocked and trying to point fingers, BE HONEST! If you're going to put in someone's head the idea that they will get a conforming rate with that score, you're the one who's the predator because you'll be the one to go back to your client halfway the process with some story like "we just couldn't get you approved at that 6% rate on a 30 yr fixed, but we DID get you a 2/28 @ 8%".

    I do lose clients to people like you because I give them an honest deal UPFRONT! I don't try and 'hook' them and bait & switch later.

  11. #11
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    Apr 2006
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    7

    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Quote Originally Posted by sucker for a good pitch
    This morning one of the sub-prime predators had an appraiser wanting COD at my door. I was not at home, but; did speak to the guy. How long is an appraisal good for?

    I must say that in the last three months of shopping around for a refi -my ARM is Q6M-that the routine is nearly identical. The shill, the roper and the insider-the white knight the salvation. The quote from one of you that: "Credit score is a conction to inflate interest rates without actually assessing the ris of default" was right on the the $.

    My cash flow is impeccable and precise and guaranteed-but; the roper beats on me with my 570 credit score. What kind of sap-who's an MD - would refi a principal residence and crap out?




    Yours truly-still shopping and wondering where y bother.
    Hello sir,

    Let me reply to a few of your statements here.

    1 - Appraisals need to be paid for upfront buy the client because clients often shop around(which you are doing..and should) and cancel their loan applications before funding. We cannot be left holding those costs and not receiving any money for the work we've done up to that point. That being said, do not agree to have an appraisal performed until you have firmly chosen the broker you want to work with a loan program that work for you.

    2 - Credit scores. Yes, I completely understand your frustration but they are not concocted by anyone in our industry. The 3 credit bureaus have a total oligopoly on lending in the US. There is no way around it except to play their game to get your scores as high as possible to keep your rates down. Are you the only one? No. Every major corporation in America also has a credit rating from Moody's and Standard and Poor and faces the same issue as yourself when shopping for financing sources. For example, GM's credit rating is in the toilet right now and their lending costs are much higher because of that. There is a very high potential for them to file bankruptcy and that risk is priced into their loans. Without a credit score or rating, how should a lender determine their risk lending to you or anyone else? A higher risk score will mean a higher interest rate. That is not any broker's control.

    3 - In regards to "crapping out"....it happens ALL THE TIME...even among doctors. Look, you're a doctor so you're an intelligent person. The entire worldwide lending industry is centered around one complex yet simple concept...risk. That's it. There is profit too but that is only a factor. It will always come down to risk. Your profession and your income are only a factor in your risk level but they certainly don't preclude you from being a high risk loan. Look at Michael freaking Jackson. That guy owes people millions and the fact is, he's nearly broke.

    Here's the problem many individuals have with getting a loan. They don't want to treated like a 'number'. The problem with that is they HAVE to be treated like that by the lender. Standard guidelines are set across the industry because 90%+ of all loans are then sold on the secondary market. If the loans don't meet the secondary investors guidelines, they can't be sold and the initial lender is stuck holding the loan.

    Predatory servicers???? Right.....you will only have a problem when you don't pay on time. Sure, some servicers 'lose' client's paperwork and misplace payments. I won't deny that. If you keep your payments documented, then there should be no problem.

    Bottom line, it sounds like the brokers you're working with are terrible. You should receive a full application, all disclosures and a good faith estimate within 72 hours of your credit being run. This is the law. Definitely DO NOT allow an appraisal until you have received all of those items in hand.

    If you'd like, I could tell you a couple of financing options for you. No, this isn't a pitch. I try and stick to local (WA) clientele. But even if you're just curious, I'll tell you what you should expect to pay from someone locally.

    Send me an email at scottc@caliburmortgage.com

    If you or anyone is curious to the 'type' of loan officer I am, browse over at www.brokersoutpost.com. For those who don't know, it is probably the largest nationwide forum of brokers in the industry and I am the 2nd largest poster there. I think you can form an opinion of me from reading my posts.

  12. #12
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    ScottAnthony,
    Thank you for that response! And I mean it. Excellent information about appraisal fees (too many times I got burned by people who would want their appraisal fees included in their loans, only for them to take a loan elsewhere... there is little loyalty), credit scoring, and risk.

    Judge,
    If you think that credit scoring is some kind of scam, you need to be talking to someone other than a mortgage broker. Brokers dont create the laws. Credit scores are a way to evaluate risk. People dont have lower credit scores because they know how to manage revolving debt properly, pay their bills on time, dont have their credit pulled excessively, etc. People have lower scores for a reason, even if its one single payment late on something.

    Futhermore, the scam servicing companies that you are referring to.......... people typically end up with those companies because they have MISSED mortgage payments. Most people who pay their mortgages on time will never worry about their mortgage being transferred to those types of companies.

    Many brokers dont charge application fees, nor do they recover it somewhere else on the loan or rip someone else off on their loan. Brokers charge a fair price for the SERVICE that they bring to the table. Whether you choose to believe it or not, not all mortgage brokers are the con artists you make them out to be. Typically, they can offer rates much lower, and fees that are lower than dealing with a traditional retail branch of a mortgage lender. If you want to get into a professional charging a lot, why dont you start a topic on realtors?

    And as far as foreclosures are concerned, not all of them are an opportunity for someone else to make a commission. I would say that out of every 15-20 foreclosure deals I tried to do, 1 might close. Most people owe too much on their mortgage to get a new loan (when you look at the loan to value ratio). Its not as easy as someone just applying for a mortgage and them obtaining one.

    What professional experience do you have as a mortgage broker (or a related profession for that matter)? Seems to be that you are quite opinionated regarding all of this, just trying to figure out how you know so much.....

  13. #13
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Sucker ...

    A 570 score won't get you a great rate however, it is not an "automatic" to be screwed either - ...There are many honest brokers out here & their paperwork will reveal that but, if you catch them in even one little lie, RUN! They have shown the nature of their character & been caught - Do not offer a second chance!

    Marcell, shame on you for being an opportunist!
    Judge, I do not agree that you have to be "face to face" to get a square deal - I've done loans all over the Country & have never left a bad taste in any of my clients mouths.. I think you're almost to cynical regarding this subject -

    As for application fees - RESPA does NOT like them - RESPA clearly indicates that no fees should be charged before services are rendedered & then there needs to be a legitimate service associated with said fee - "Application fess" are pure junk & many times are used as leverage to keep a borrower "on board" by refusing to refund the fee if they use a different lender ...

    Scott, you are way to opinionated / judgmental to be objective & of any true service to anyone

    Just my opinions...Take em or leave em

    Ed
    www.noscamshere.com

  14. #14
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Well said Tabitha :)

    Ed
    www.noscamshere.com

  15. #15
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    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Ed,

    Thank you. It really burns me up when I see people spouting off about how brokers are scam artists, lenders screw people over, etc. There are bad apples in any industry. However, that doesnt mean that you lump an entire industry into the same category.

    When I was in the business, I would always explain to people how a loan in constructed (credit, collateral, capacity to repay the loan). I would also explain how risk is assessed. A majority of borrowers will tell you all day long that they know this, but I have found out that most don't. Most dont really even understand the way credit scoring works (not that I am saying its a perfect system, but its what we have to work with for the time being). People like to think that they know everything, but educating them helps to clear up any inconsistencies in information they may have.

    Furthermore, I cant figure out why someone would shop a mortgage for 5 months. The credit pulls alone in shopping this long could be an explanation for a 570 score. Not to mention, how many times has the FED met since December 2005, and how many times have rates increased? If someone is questioning a legitimate company or not, the Better Business Bureau is a good place to start. As is networking with people that you know. If you know other homeowners, ask who they used for their home loan, and what their experience was like.

    I enourage people to take a look at a few different quotes. If a quote is out there all by itself on the low end, the broker is probably trying to bait and switch you. Most quotes should be in the same ballpark. If the broker is trying to charge an application fee, tell them no. Tell them you will be happy to pay for your appraisal (which you rightfully should). If they arent willing to budge, move on. Its all common sense.

    I dont think that meeting someone face to face necessarily means you arent going to get ripped off. Look at Ameriquest. They have people come into their offices all the time......... now look at the big settlement they just paid. Being face to face with someone means nothing. I did business all over the country. And I didnt rip people off. I would even give my borrowers my cell phone number, so in the event they had a question or concern, they could reach me. It was very frustrating for me at times (11pm phone calls when I am trying to get to sleep can be annoying), but it helped solidify the relationship I had with someone down in FL or up in CT.

    --Tabitha Naylor

    Ed, BTW, I like your site. Especially the page on Option Arms. People lock themselves into those loans, thinking they are the greatest things since sliced bread, when they dont even understand the way the loan works.

  16. #16

    Re: Sub prime limbo-

    Ed, that is one helluva website. I've been shopping for five months because most of the paperwork generated is so divergent from the initial quotes-an educated decision became blurry.

    I responded to shill letters and let sales people coax my ssn OKAY I am a sucker for a good pitch.

    Whoever quoted: "If you cat catch them in a lie...run." Was on the $

    I used scambusters to look up the mtg broker-lender in Ca-real experience-they've been invisible since 2005. You saved me 10K.
    Last edited by sucker for a good pitch; 04-04-2006 at 10:10 PM. Reason: left out an item

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