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  1. #1
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    Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Hey Pwrone, if you are out there buddy, this one is for you.
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    Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told
    By ANDREW LEHREN and JOHN LELAND


    For all the passions they generate, laws that require minors to notify their parents or get permission to have an abortion do not appear to have produced the sharp drop in teenage abortion rates that some advocates hoped for, an analysis by The New York Times shows.

    The analysis, which looked at six states that introduced parental involvement laws in the last decade and is believed to be the first study to include data from years after 1999, found instead a scattering of divergent trends.

    For instance, in Tennessee, the abortion rate went down when a federal court suspended a parental consent requirement, then rose when the law went back into effect. In Texas, the rate fell after a notification law went into effect, but not as fast as it did in the years before the law. In Virginia, the rate barely moved when the state introduced a notification law in 1998, but fell after the requirement was changed to parental consent in 2003.

    Since the United States Supreme Court recognized states' rights to restrict abortion in 1992, parental involvement legislation has been a cornerstone in the effort to reduce abortions. Such laws have been a focus of divisive election campaigns, long court battles and grass-roots activism, and are now in place in 34 states. Most Americans say they favor them.

    "It's one of the few areas that the U.S. Supreme Court has allowed states to legislate, so it's become a key for lowering the abortion rate," said Mary Spaulding Balch, director of state legislation for the National Right to Life Committee. Ms. Balch said she believed that consent laws were effective.

    Yet the Times analysis of the states that enacted laws from 1995 to 2004 — most of which had low abortion rates to begin with — found no evidence that the laws had a significant impact on the number of minors who got pregnant, or, once pregnant, the number who had abortions.

    A separate analysis considered whether the existence or absence of a law could be used to predict whether abortions went up or down. It could not. The six states studied are in the South and West: Arizona, Idaho, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia. (A seventh state, Oklahoma, also passed a parental notification law in this period, but did not gather abortion data before 2000.)

    Supporters of the laws say they promote better decision-making and reduce teenage abortions; opponents say they chip away at abortion rights and endanger young lives by exposing them to potentially violent reaction from some parents.

    But some workers and doctors at abortion clinics said that the laws had little connection with the real lives of most teenagers, and that they more often saw parents pressing their daughters to have abortions than trying to stop them. And many teenagers say they never considered hiding their pregnancies or abortion plans from their mothers.

    "I would have told my mother anyway," said a 16-year-old named Nicole, who waited recently at a clinic in Allentown, Pa., a state that requires minors to get the permission of just one parent. Nicole's mother and father are divorced, and it was her mother she went to for permission to have an abortion.

    "She was the first person I called," Nicole said. "She's like a best friend to me."

    Abortion rates have been dropping nationwide since the mid-1980's, most precipitously for teenagers. But in three states — Arizona, Idaho and Tennessee — the percentage of pregnant minors who had abortions rose slightly after the consent laws went into effect.

    When the Times study compared the first full year after a state began enforcing a parental law with the last full year before the law, it found that abortions among minors dropped an average of 9 percent. But in the same period, the rates for pregnant 18- and 19-year-olds, who were not affected by the law, dropped by 5 percent, suggesting that most of the drop among minors was associated with other factors that affected minors and adults alike.

    "There are ongoing trends that are pushing both birth rates and abortion rates down significantly, and those larger trends are more important than the effect of these laws," said Ted Joyce, an economist at Baruch College in New York who has studied parental involvement laws. He found they had limited effects on small subgroups of minors but little impact over all.

    Of the remaining decline in teenage abortion rates in the Times study, Dr. Joyce said that some of it might be attributed to minors going out of state for abortions. The health departments in these states do not track data on such abortions, but in three previous studies of states where such data were available, completed before 1991, two found that any drop in minors' abortions was matched by an increase in minors getting abortions out of state.

    Previous research on the effects of parental notification laws has been slender and has produced contradictory conclusions. All were hampered by inconsistencies in the ways states gather and report data.

    The Times analysis was limited by its focus on just six states, but it avoided the possible distortions of including states that gather data in inconsistent ways.

    Phillip B. Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College, examined nationwide survey results from 1985 to 1996, a time when many parental involvement laws were put in place, and found that the laws were associated with about one-eighth of the total drop in minors' abortions in those states. Much of the drop was associated with other factors, which might include the economy, availability of abortion, changes in mores and other trends. "It's not surprising it's not popping out," Dr. Levine said of the small drop found in the Times analysis. "There is nothing overwhelmingly staggering" in the change associated with the laws.

    Supporters of parental involvement laws say they allow parents to help their children make an important health care decision, as parents would on any other surgical procedure.

    For Cathi Harrod, interim president of the Center for Arizona Policy, who lobbied for 15 years for her state's parental consent law, getting minors to involve their parents in their medical decisions was reason enough for the laws, whatever the impact on overall abortion rates. Arizona's law went into effect in 2003.

    Ms. Harrod said she believed that there was a groundswell of women who have had regrets about their own abortions and that as they made their feelings known, "we think the numbers will go down as minors learn more about their options." Either way, she said, her organization will push for stricter standards and more public accountability for judicial bypass through access to judges' records.

    But providers interviewed in 10 states with parental involvement laws all said that of the minors who came into their clinics, parents were more often the ones pushing for an abortion, even against the wishes of their daughters.

    "I see far more parents trying to pressure their daughters to have one," said Jane Bovard, owner of the Red River Women's Clinic in Fargo, N.D., a state where a minor needs consent from both parents. "As a parent myself, I can understand. But I say to parents, 'You force her to have this abortion, and I can tell you that within the next six months she's going to be pregnant again.' "

    Renee Chelian, director of Northland Family Planning Centers in the Detroit area, said she had had to call the police on parents who wanted their daughters to have abortions, "because they threaten physical violence on the kids."

    Ms. Chelian added that the laws might have unseen effects, including driving some teenagers to try to abort their pregnancies on their own.

    "Kids talk among themselves," she said. "When we tell them they need to go to court or tell their parents, that's when they tell us there's a Web site" for chemicals or herbal remedies that claims to induce abortions.

    Nearly all state parental involvement laws allow for minors to bypass their parents by going through a judge. Providers interviewed in 10 states all said that the process was generally not cumbersome, but that some girls would be afraid to go to court.

    For Nicole, the 16-year-old in the Allentown clinic, the hard part was telling her estranged father.

    "It was my choice to tell him," she said. "It hurt him, but he understands and is there for me. So in a way it brought us closer together."


    .

  2. #2
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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask

    Most Americans say they favor them.

    My point is quoted. What point are you trying to make?

    It's funny, whenever gun control comes up, liberals always say "if it saves just one life, then it was worth it". So is a "scant drop" worth it?

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySubSailor
    My point is quoted. What point are you trying to make?

    It's funny, whenever gun control comes up, liberals always say "if it saves just one life, then it was worth it". So is a "scant drop" worth it?
    The point was clearly made in the article did you miss it? I don't see how with all the bolding and highlighting.

    The point of the study proved that parental consent did not make the sweeping changes that advocates claimed it would.

    You know what they should do? Aren't you kind of young, 20ish-40ish? This will impact you a lot if you are. Run an analysis of the number of unwed births that went up or down at the same time. The bills for all those fatherless children and their single mommies will be paid for out of your tax dollars.

    At least when you back gun control there are numbers to back it up, just look to see how many fewer people died from guns. But where are the numbers to support that not only is parental consent not exactly working as planned but the number of unwed mothers or teenage births is rising. That would have made more impact. It must have been a man in charge of these analysis, they tend to forget the flip side of these issues.

    And if you will read my past posts sailor, I'm not pro-abortion, but I do think that the government does not have a right to make the decisions for women when it comes to their bodies. And I think there needs to be something more, something tangible to educate these kids before they become sexually active that abstinance is a good thing. Getting rid of all the porn and actually having adults grow up and set better examples would certainly help.

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySubSailor
    My point is quoted. What point are you trying to make?

    It's funny, whenever gun control comes up, liberals always say "if it saves just one life, then it was worth it". So is a "scant drop" worth it?
    ALL liberals do not support ALL gun control legislation. Another common neo-con straw dog argument.
    I support some of the NRA’s causes but not all of them.
    Gun ownership was never a ‘RIGHT’ btw it is clearly a privilege. I would try to explain it to you but I'd be wasting my time. It has been covered before on another thread by Lady Mod.
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 03-06-2006 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    The point was clearly made in the article did you miss it? I don't see how with all the bolding and highlighting.

    The point of the study proved that parental consent did not make the sweeping changes that advocates claimed it would.

    You know what they should do? Aren't you kind of young, 20ish-40ish? This will impact you a lot if you are. Run an analysis of the number of unwed births that went up or down at the same time. The bills for all those fatherless children and their single mommies will be paid for out of your tax dollars.

    At least when you back gun control there are numbers to back it up, just look to see how many fewer people died from guns. But where are the numbers to support that not only is parental consent not exactly working as planned but the number of unwed mothers or teenage births is rising. That would have made more impact. It must have been a man in charge of these analysis, they tend to forget the flip side of these issues.

    And if you will read my past posts sailor, I'm not pro-abortion, but I do think that the government does not have a right to make the decisions for women when it comes to their bodies. And I think there needs to be something more, something tangible to educate these kids before they become sexually active that abstinance is a good thing. Getting rid of all the porn and actually having adults grow up and set better examples would certainly help.

    Lady Mod
    Lady, as the father of a teenage daughter, or son for that matter, I'd really lke to know anytime they have major surgery. Wouldn't you? The dentist can't give a novacaine shot to my children without my permission, but they can abort a fetus without me knowing? I agree with you, when it comes to women's bodies. But children's bodies? Do you really want a doctor poking around your daughter's body without you knowing about it? What if your 13 year old son wanted a sex change. Should he ask for your permission first? Or since it's "his body" does he have the right to do it anyway. In my house, well, number one it's not going to happen no matter what the law says, but number two, HELL NO! But shouldn't it be his choice? Whatever....
    I'm not going to blame the rise on unwed/teenage childbirth on laws, I blame it on those that "choose" to get pregnant.

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    ALL liberals do not support ALL gun control legislation. Another common neo-con straw dog argument.
    I support some of the NRA’s causes but not all of them.
    Gun ownership was never a ‘RIGHT’ btw it is clearly a privilege. I would try to explain it to you but I'd be wasting my time. It has been covered before on another thread by Lady Mod.
    There you go with the name calling again. Boy, you're really good at it. Were you abused as a child? Is that were you learned it from? Does it make you feel superior to me, others?

    You're right, you would be wasting your time. Whether you were right or not, you have absolutely zero credibility with me. I know you don't care what I think, but at least you know the feeling is mutual.

  7. #7
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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySubSailor
    Lady, as the father of a teenage daughter, or son for that matter, I'd really lke to know anytime they have major surgery. Wouldn't you? The dentist can't give a novacaine shot to my children without my permission, but they can abort a fetus without me knowing? I agree with you, when it comes to women's bodies. But children's bodies? Do you really want a doctor poking around your daughter's body without you knowing about it? What if your 13 year old son wanted a sex change. Should he ask for your permission first? Or since it's "his body" does he have the right to do it anyway. In my house, well, number one it's not going to happen no matter what the law says, but number two, HELL NO! But shouldn't it be his choice? Whatever....
    I'm not going to blame the rise on unwed/teenage childbirth on laws, I blame it on those that "choose" to get pregnant.
    I understand where you are coming from but do you really think the government gives a rats ass about our children? Changing gender is slightly different and a lot more involved than having an abortion.

    The purpose behind the clinics was to provide safe and sterile ways to get an abortion. Granted, there is a lot as a people we better get control of in them, like for instance I suggested that there be a permanent staff on the premisis that comes from the right to life way of thinking. Offer real solutions and support to women who then choose to have the babies.

    If a girl is going to a clinic it's because she is afraid of her parents. The solution is not in condemning these girls to finding a different way to abort the child but in accurately identifying those that are at risk from being hurt or villianized by their parents. Because major family counseling is required and should be mandatory. I don't have a problem with parents being told if safety measures are put in place to protect the girls. And I think the boys parents and the boy should have to attend any counseling too. Geez! Parents are so damn ignorant when it comes to their sons. I don't want to see the days of using coat hangers or Internet drugs come to fruition. There are herbs that are so powerful that it can kill a girl if she were to use them to abort a fetus. I don't want to even see that kind of alternative get popular. Kids never think they could die when they start using these drugs. They don't think that far ahead.

    Would you condemn your 13 year old to raising a child? In this day and age? I hope not. So I think that we need to very quickly come to some kind of solution to safeguard that from happening before the child is sexually active. Hey, it only takes once. So how do we determine what that age would be? Beats me, I've turned in parents with 6 year old girls who were having sex with older brothers and cousins. Down the street I am watching one family carefully, they came out of the ghetto area of this city. That's not a big deal but these children, sheesh. The little girl can't be more than 5 and she's already shouting at kids to lick her *****, and behaving in a way that I would not exactly call healthy. I've turned that family in to child protective services. (What a joke that agency is.)

    Should we start drilling into our kids from kindergarten about abstinence? Hell, sailor, considering how many parents never discuss sex, much less birth control with their kids, that might be the only viable option we end up with. That and chasity belts.

    Lady Mod

  8. #8
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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySubSailor
    Lady, as the father of a teenage daughter, or son for that matter, I'd really lke to know anytime they have major surgery. Wouldn't you? The dentist can't give a novacaine shot to my children without my permission, but they can abort a fetus without me knowing? I agree with you, when it comes to women's bodies. But children's bodies? Do you really want a doctor poking around your daughter's body without you knowing about it? What if your 13 year old son wanted a sex change. Should he ask for your permission first? Or since it's "his body" does he have the right to do it anyway. In my house, well, number one it's not going to happen no matter what the law says, but number two, HELL NO! But shouldn't it be his choice? Whatever....
    I'm not going to blame the rise on unwed/teenage childbirth on laws, I blame it on those that "choose" to get pregnant.
    Just adding this in for measure, but abortion is NOT major surgery (physically, not religiously or mentally).

    the current most popular methods are either TAKING A FEW PILLS if its early enough in the pregnancy, or using vacuem aspiration, which is basically what it sounds like. there are NO cuts, NO anesthesiologists, and NO recovery rooms. you wouldn't know if a girl/woman had an abortion if you saw her naked body one minute after the procedure (maybe if you are a doctor of some sort).

    I am adding this to the thread because when you classify it as major surgery then i think it entails much more.

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    I don't have the answer to this dilema but I am adamant on the topic of a parents right to know - for that matter - Parent's Rights. The government is far too intrusive.

    My parenting abilities were never called into question until my husband died. Suddenly I have teachers monitoring my children's attendance - counsellors requesting we attend "grief sessions" - all manner of people telling me that my children "may" need someone (other than me) to talk to. Honestly, this intrusion was as damaging to my children as the loss of their father. They felt that I may be taken from them, as well. Imagine a total stranger saying "If you want to talk to me - we don't have to tell your mom. You can tell me anything." Considering I had taught them to beware of strangers that would tell them exactly that - what could their reaction be?

    The stories of parents threatening their children are a little hard for me to believe. Who has more of a vested interest in these kids than the parents? Who loves these kids more than the parents? Who knows these kids better than the parents? Who will be there for these kids when tragedy strikes, if not their parents? Parents may get very angry - they may not always have the perfect answer - but the care of the children is their domain. Isolated examples should not be factored into the equation.

    One very high and mighty vice-principal (who by the way - had no children) was demanding that I send my son to counselling. He skipped two days of school in grade 10 - and therefore must need grief counselling! Yeah...right....he was hanging at the mall - skippin' school with his three buddies (who have both parents and were not in any grief) and their biggest problem was raging hormones! Thankfully my kids attend a catholic school - so I calmly explained to her that since God had seen fit to entrust the care of this child to me (by virtue of the fact that He made me the mother) that I would counsel the child as God would direct me to do. So I "grounded his butt" for a month and drove him to the front door of the school for a few days. I assured him I would even walk him to every class, if necessary, should there be a repeat. It wasn't the last time he skipped school - but it was the last I heard from the vice-principal - and I did thank God.

    There are "rights advocates" for every color of the rainbow and every animal on earth. It's not "parents vs. children" - it's "family" - together as one.

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Just came across this. Interestingly along the topic of pizza and abortions. I think even some of the republicans on this site might have issue with this...

    New Florida town would restrict abortion
    Domino's founder building community around Catholic university

    Thursday, March 2, 2006; Posted: 9:35 p.m. EST (02:35 GMT)

    NAPLES, Florida (AP) -- If Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan has his way, a new town being built in Florida will be governed according to strict Roman Catholic principles, with no place to get an abortion, pornography or birth control.
    The pizza magnate is bankrolling the project with at least $250 million and calls it "God's will."

    Civil libertarians say the plan is unconstitutional and are threatening to sue.

    The town of Ave Maria is being constructed around Ave Maria University, the first Catholic university to be built in the United States in about 40 years. Both are set to open next year about 25 miles east of Naples in southwestern Florida.

    The town and the university, developed in partnership with the Barron Collier Co., an agricultural and real estate business, will be set on 5,000 acres with a European-inspired town center, a massive church and what planners call the largest crucifix in the nation, at nearly 65 feet tall. Monaghan envisions 11,000 homes and 20,000 residents.

    During a speech last year at a Catholic men's gathering in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels.

    Homebuyers in Ave Maria will own their property outright. But Monaghan and Barron Collier will control all commercial real estate in the town, meaning they could insert provisions in leases to restrict the sale of certain items.

    "I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil. I don't want to be on the sidelines," Monaghan, who sold Domino's Pizza in 1998 to devote himself to doing good works, said in a recent Newsweek interview.

    Robert Falls, a spokesman for the project, said Tuesday that attorneys are still reviewing the legal issues and that Monaghan had no comment in the meantime.

    "If they attempt to do what he apparently wants to do, the people of Naples and Collier County, Florida, are in for a whole series of legal and constitutional problems and a lot of litigation indefinitely into the future," warned Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

    Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist said it will be up to the courts to decide the legalities of the plan. "The community has the right to provide a wholesome environment," he said. "If someone disagrees, they have the right to go to court and present facts before a judge."

    Gov. Jeb Bush, at the site's groundbreaking earlier this month, lauded the development as a new kind of town where faith and freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded citizens. Bush, a convert to Catholicism, did not speak specifically to the proposed restrictions.

    "While the governor does not personally believe in abortion or pornography, the town, and any restrictions they may place on businesses choosing to locate there, must comply with the laws and constitution of the state and federal governments," Russell Schweiss, a spokesman for the governor, said Tuesday.

    Frances Kissling, president of the liberal Washington-based Catholics for a Free Choice, likened Monaghan's concept to Islamic fundamentalism.

    "This is un-American," Kissling said. "I don't think in a democratic society you can have a legally organized township that will seek to have any kind of public service whatsoever and try to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens."

    Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
    --------

    Batarang Force

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    Just adding this in for measure, but abortion is NOT major surgery (physically, not religiously or mentally).

    the current most popular methods are either TAKING A FEW PILLS if its early enough in the pregnancy, or using vacuem aspiration, which is basically what it sounds like. there are NO cuts, NO anesthesiologists, and NO recovery rooms. you wouldn't know if a girl/woman had an abortion if you saw her naked body one minute after the procedure (maybe if you are a doctor of some sort).

    I am adding this to the thread because when you classify it as major surgery then i think it entails much more.
    While "major surgery" may be an exaggeration.... your description of an abortion is obviously very, very misinformed. I don't know where you get your information. Sadly very superficial opinion - pill or vacuum...no big deal...how do you know this? No cuts....interesting theory...so the fetus, the placenta are not attached to anything? So, all the blood that results after an abortion or a birth - that's all...what...special effects???? I think I'm safe to say you don't have a clue about "where baby's come from". I would really like to be wrong. Tell me you know better than just what you posted here, please?
    Last edited by linda49; 03-07-2006 at 06:38 AM.

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by linda49
    While "major surgery" may be an exaggeration.... your description of an abortion is obviously very, very misinformed. I don't know where you get your information. Sadly very superficial opinion... Tell me you know better than just what you posted here, please?
    Sadly.. We were all just informed that little umdkook had a frontal labotamy. He literally does not know any better than what he blindly posts. Sad, sad case. We had to put him down last night in midst of his screaming, "The Liberals are coming! The Liberals are coming! And they have the truth!!! Aaaarrrrggghh."

    We will mourn and miss him.

    Batarang Force

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by BatarngForce

    "This is un-American," Kissling said. "I don't think in a democratic society you can have a legally organized township that will seek to have any kind of public service whatsoever and try to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens."

    Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
    --------

    Batarang Force
    I would have more of an issue with that 65 foot crucifix being an eyesore than the township having restricted rules. The Quakers had their own towns, the Amish have their own today.

    If 20,000 people want to purchase homes inside a cloistered society that does not allow certain things inside it, that is NOT restricting their constitutional rights as citizens. They have chosen to live like that and I believe that the Constitution guarantees them the right to do so. I live in a dry county by choice, I don't feel my rights have been violated because alcohol is not on the grocers shelves where I live. In Texas we still have forms of the old "blue law" in effect.

    I have to wonder if they will actually get 20,000 homeowners moving there any time soon, but you never know.

    Lady Mod

  14. #14
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by linda49
    While "major surgery" may be an exaggeration.... your description of an abortion is obviously very, very misinformed. I don't know where you get your information. Sadly very superficial opinion - pill or vacuum...no big deal...how do you know this? No cuts....interesting theory...so the fetus, the placenta are not attached to anything? So, all the blood that results after an abortion or a birth - that's all...what...special effects???? I think I'm safe to say you don't have a clue about "where baby's come from". I would really like to be wrong. Tell me you know better than just what you posted here, please?

    i dont know where babies come from you are right. its a good thing you dont need to know where they come from to know about abortions.

    my facts are what i called them, facts. they are not opinion, they are not guesses. you can find out how abortions work from any number of sources on the internet, or ask an MD. the only "cutting" that takes place is the scraping of the uterus with a metal tool to loosen the fetus, which is then vacuemed out using, well, a vacuem. im sorry if you dont want to beleive it, but its true. im sorry if it sounds like i take it lightly, believe me i do not, but its how it works. you can take pills, and it is one of the most popular methods currently used. unfortunately in lots of cases, the fetus has been implanted too long and pills are no longer an option, as well as the fact that some women's bodies do not respond to the pills.
    the blood that appears after an abortion is the same as menstrual bleeding. it is tissue and membrane that supported the fetus. it can be severe with some women, and non existant with others, just like the varying rates of normal women's periods. it is nothing even close to an actual birth, which would be 7-9 months later.

    i was simply adding this in to let you know and anyone else who doesnt that it is not major surgery. major decision and major issue for all invovled definitely, but major surgery, no. Contrary to the severity of such a decision, an abortion can last 1 hour from start to finish (including paperwork). i am not downplaying abortion or anything like that, just giving simple facts on it. i never said it was "no big deal" as you claim, in fact it is a HUGE deal. i just said what is true--it isnt major surgery in medical terms.

  15. #15
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by BatarngForce
    Sadly.. We were all just informed that little umdkook had a frontal labotamy. He literally does not know any better than what he blindly posts. Sad, sad case. We had to put him down last night in midst of his screaming, "The Liberals are coming! The Liberals are coming! And they have the truth!!! Aaaarrrrggghh."

    We will mourn and miss him.

    Batarang Force
    im sorry if you guys dont like hearing about abortions and how they work, but everything i have written is true. Since you decided to respond and try to make fun of me, why dont you enlighten us as to how you think they happen??

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    Re: Scant Drop Seen in Abortion Rate if Parents Are Told

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    im sorry if you guys dont like hearing about abortions and how they work, but everything i have written is true. Since you decided to respond and try to make fun of me, why dont you enlighten us as to how you think they happen??
    Undee! You're alive!! I'm so glad that the bullet only grazed your temple. We missed you so much. Hey, can you go get us a Dominoes pizza while your out? Extra Christian Salvation toppings, and sprinkle some of that salvation while you're at it.

    Batarang Force

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