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Thread: Will I Believe?

  1. #1
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    Will I Believe?

    Will I believe?

    Taken from 1 Kings.

    18:19 Now therefore send, [and] gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.
    18:20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.
    18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
    18:22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, [even] I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets [are] four hundred and fifty men.
    18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]:
    18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
    18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire [under].
    18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed [it], and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But [there was] no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
    18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
    18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
    18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the [time] of the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that [there was] neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
    18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD [that was] broken down.
    18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
    18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
    18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
    18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.
    18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
    18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.
    18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.
    18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.
    18:39 And when all the people saw [it], they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he [is] the God; the LORD, he [is] the God.
    18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

    With all the strife over whether or not Christians are correct in their faith, it seems that there would be one easy way to find out who is right and who is wrong. Who is serving the true and living God? Is God real?

    Jesus says:
    Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    And

    Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
    Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    And

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    Christians that read this forum, adamantly defending your faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of your souls and indeed the salvation of all who believe in him, riddle me this…Why does God not fulfill His promises, even among those who believe?

    What does Jesus mean when he says “When two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also?”

    What does it mean when an entire congregation prays earnestly together for a fellow congregant’s child who is sick, that he/she be healed, and the suffering family be comforted….and the child gets worse…is hospitalized…and dies?
    What does it mean when your mother and father are badly burned in a house fire, your younger sister dead…after years of prayer to bless them and keep them.
    What does it mean when a family cries out to God for help after the bread-winner loses his/her job, only to find themselves out on the streets after actively seeking employment?

    Jesus told certain of the scribes and Pharisees, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it…”

    However, this was to those who did not believe…..what of the promises cited earlier to those who DO believe? (its interesting to note that even though Jesus said this, he continued to perform miracles in front of believer and unbeliever alike…)

    I would venture a guess that if Christians gathered together by the thousands and in one voice cried out to God to heal a man with leprosy or syphilis, the man would remain ill….but if one doctor with a syringe and the right medicine administered the drug, the sick would become healed.

    I thought this article interesting as well and apologize for any repetitious thought…

    A FIREFIGHTER SPEAKS-OUT

    If Jesus is really God, then he knows that I used to believe, and he also knows that today I am a doubting Thomas, a doubting Peter, a doubting Saul. If Jesus is really God, then he also knows that the only way I will believe in him again is if he proves his divine reality (at least to my satisfaction) by performing one little "miracle."

    BRUCE MONSON'S PERSONAL APPEAL TO JESUS:

    If Jesus will resurrect one (just one) of the many children I have seen die in my profession (usually under exceptionally tragic circumstances), I promise that I will devote my life to spreading His Word to all the world, especially to atheists, agnostics & people professing belief in all the thousands of other "false" religions extant in the world. I will give all of my possessions and money to the poor as He commanded (Luke 18:22); I will hate my father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, even my own life in accordance with His requirements to be His disciple (Luke 14:26); I will do all of these things and be a suffering servant for Jesus. I will make it my purpose in life to be His greatest disciple!

    Is it really so unreasonable to require physical proof? Was it "unreasonable" for those questioning Apostles?

    In Luke 7:18-22 (and Matthew 11:1-5) we are told that John, who is in prison at this time, sends two of his disciples to go forth and ask Jesus "if he is the one [that should come] or if they should look for another?" And what is Jesus' response? Does he just send John's disciples on their merry way with instructions to "just have faith"? No, he does not! Rather, he provides physical proof to John's disciples through healings (the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, lepers are cured) and actual resurrections (Luke 7:11-17) in their presence, and then instructs them to return to John and tell him of these miracles they have seen!

    WHY SHOULD I EXPECT ANYTHING LESS?

    Obviously each person is different; as such, each person has different levels of skepticism and requirements of proof that will satisfy that skepticism. Throughout the Gospels we see the differences in the disciples; some need virtually no convincing at all, while others need more proof. Some need to see for themselves first-hand physical evidence, and these were the very disciples who supposedly witnessed all of these "miracles" allegedly performed by Jesus, and yet they still were not convinced! They either asked for or were seen by Jesus as needing proof, and they got it!

  2. #2
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    I ask you again,

    WHY SHOULD I EXPECT ANYTHING LESS?

    Resurrections seem to have been a fairly common occurrence in 1st c. Palestine (and not limited to just Bible heroes, it seems), so is it really too much to ask Jesus to provide just one single resurrection of a child today?

    Surely, if Jesus was willing to provide physical evidence to convince Thomas, Peter, Paul (remember, like each of us, Paul never actually met Jesus, and he was allegedly a hater and persecutor of Christians prior to the incident on the road to Damascus), John’s disciples, and hosts of complete strangers, then He should understand that THAT is what it will take for me to believe again!

    I am not picky. All I need to convince me is the resurrection of just one child, and I don't even need to see Jesus do it himself; he can have any one of his "believing followers" perform the resurrection in His name (John 14:13). After all, according to scripture, these abilities of healing and even resurrection are supposed to be possessed by any believing and faithful Christian!

    Passages indicating that "believers" are to be afforded special "healing" abilities through Jesus.

    Mark 16:17-18, 20 -- [17] And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; [18] they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. [20] And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word by the signs that followed. Amen. (my emphasis)

    Matthew 10:8 -- Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. (my emphasis)

    Luke 10:9 -- heal the sick in it [towns] and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you. (my emphasis)


    These are just a few among many such passages, more of which I will be happy to provide upon request.

    So let's recap--believers are supposed to be able to:

    ===> Heal the sick
    ===> Raise the dead
    ===> Drink any deadly thing without harm to themselves
    ===> Speak in tongues
    ===> Pick-up serpents [without harm]
    ===> Cleanse lepers
    ===> Cast out demons

    Passages indicating that any believer who has "faith" in Jesus will have their prayers answered.

    Matthew 21:22 -- And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith. (my emphasis)

    Matthew 7:7-8 -- [7] Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you [8] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

    Mark 11:23-24 -- [23] Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. [24] Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

    John 11:40 – Jesus said, ‘Did I not tell you that if you have faith you will see the glory of God?’ [Note: Jesus is then said to have resurrected Lazarus from the dead, to prove to those present that He was sent from God (cf., v.42)]

    John 14:13 -- Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (my emphasis)

    Notice that the text says "you will receive" and does not say "sometimes I say no", the stock answer that so many Christians like to dole-out as an attempt at rationalization for why their prayers (even with millions of Christians praying in virtual unison for a common cause) did not produce the desired results--a perplexing dilemma considering that all it is supposed to take is just one "believer" to pray, and it will be
    granted …"so that the father may be glorified."

    And what kinds of prayers DO get answers?

    James 5:17-18 [17] Eli'jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. [18] Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.

    I think the obvious question being begged here is, if something so utterly trivial as praying for rain to stop and/or start at the whim of one man ("who is like ourselves"), then surely something as deeply personal and tragic as the sickness or death of a child would be a no-brainer for any all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving deity . . . well, one would think.

    2 Kings 2:23-24 [23] He [the prophet Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go away, baldhead! Go away baldhead!" [24] When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (my emphasis)

    Bears mauling forty-two children to death; and for what, making fun of a man’s bald head? Not only is this a supreme example of injustice, but again we see God dealing it out at the beckoned call of a man. I guess the next time we hear of a child getting mauled to death by a Rottweiler we should just assume that the child deserved it, and justice was served?

    Joshua's long day fable is another example (but certainly not the last) of God allegedly answering to the requests of a mere human, and for no other purpose than to allow Joshua more daylight so he could finish his massacre of the fleeing Amorites:

    Joshua 10:12-13 [12] Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Ai'jalon." [13] And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

    Of course, I will contend that this is just another typical example of literary embellishment by the author(s) of the Book of Joshua. However, since many Christians believe this to be a literally true historical event, I will use it as a means for expressing the notion that the prayers of just one man (even for such an atrocious act as slaughtering people who are fleeing from him) was apparently good enough to receive an immediate and physical confirmation from God--and on a grandiose celestial scale.

    WHY SHOULD I EXPECT ANYTHING LESS?

    PART II

    A DISTURBING SCENARIO:

    I wonder... do you suppose Christians among the general public would be just as uncritical of us (professional firefighters) as they are of Jesus when He "fails to answer their prayers," if we, for example, responded to a house fire and arrived to the pleading shrieks of children trapped on the 3rd floor with steadily increasing black smoke pouring out of their open window, and having the direct power and means to save them, we instead chose to just stand and watch as they burned to their deaths, all along while their hysterical parents screamed for us to "do something!"? Hardly! In fact, the loss of our jobs (deservedly) would be the least of our worries, since we would most likely be brought up on charges of gross negligence for our "failure to provide aid," and probably buy a stinging jail sentence.

    This is a troubling comparison to be sure, and one that is sure to anger those Christians reading this, but it is nevertheless completely accurate and a very serious argument against the reality of a personal savior who "hears our prayers."

    Indeed, consider the two-year-old girl that burned to her death in Station 10's apartment fire this past December--that little girl's mother was pleading to God to save her child (as can be vividly heard on the 911 tape!) and "Jesus" did nothing! Unfortunately, it was also too late for even the valiant efforts of our firefighters to save her, and that is a tragedy!

    Christians have a propensity for arbitrarily assigning credit for perceived "good" things that happen as being the divine works of Jesus (usually at the expense of the real miracles of modern medical science), but when things take a turn for the worse they will always find a way to rationalize such events so as to absolve their "loving" god from any responsibility whatsoever, but deep down I suspect they have the same feelings that I do (that most people do), but are afraid to speak the question that sits in the pit of their gut; afraid because they have always been taught to be afraid and to not dare question God. Well, I am not afraid! As the saying goes, "there is nothing to fear but fear itself."

  3. #3
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    ===> If Jesus is really God and he did not predestine this tragedy, but had the power to save that child and chose not to, then I hold Jesus responsible for not only the child's death (because he "failed to act"), but also the suffering that family will endure for the rest of their lives!

    ===> If Jesus is really God and he did predestine the death of this child, and in this agonizingly tragic manner, then I hold Him responsible for not only the injustice of taking the life of a two-year-old girl, but also for inflicting life-long guilt upon her five-year-old brother (who accidentally started the fire), and for the endless pain and sorrow that the mother and father will have to endure for the rest of their lives!

    I will close with a restatement of my Personal Appeal to Jesus: If Jesus will resurrect this one little girl and return her to her mother's arms, I promise that I will devote my life to spreading His Word to all the world, especially to atheists, agnostics & people professing belief in all the thousands of other "false" religions extant in the world. I will give ALL of my possessions and money to the poor as He commanded (Luke 18:22); I will hate my father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, even my own life in accordance with His requirements to be his disciple (Luke 14:26); I will do all of these things and be a suffering servant for Jesus. I will make it my purpose in life to be His greatest disciple!

    Yours in Truth,

    Bruce Monson

  4. #4
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Believers are supposed to be able to physically move mountains and toss them in the sea too. Mr. Monson didn't mention that.

    It can't be any harder than cleansing lepers. ;)

    Good to see you back Bibleman.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Will I Believe?

    :)
    Thank you Mi'Lady. Seems like a long time since my last post.
    Glad to see you are still around.

    Cheers ;)

  6. #6
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman
    :)
    Thank you Mi'Lady. Seems like a long time since my last post.
    Glad to see you are still around.

    Cheers ;)
    Even after a year they still want me around. I don't think the owners would let me quit even if I was serious about doing so. I would just have to stop showing up for work. LOL.

    I hang out in politics mostly. But once in awhile I venture back here.

    Stick around for awhile. You always have good things to offer.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

  7. #7
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Anyone know what happened to Quertol?
    Figured he'd be on this like flies on..uh..
    Thought he would have jumped all over this.

    Guess in my absence from the forum a lot has changed.....

  8. #8
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    thanks for the scourging!?hehe!......and maybe it's a green/dry thing.and then there's the rainbow promise thing.........hehe!

  9. #9
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    thanks for the scourging!?hehe!......and maybe it's a green/dry thing.and then there's the rainbow promise thing.........hehe!

    Uh...fer sure, brother man...I think....no no. I really don't get it. Thought I did, but..I just don't... ;)

  10. #10
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman
    Uh...fer sure, brother man...I think....no no. I really don't get it. Thought I did, but..I just don't... ;)
    so take me down to the depths of the valley of the curse of darkness for i am willing to go for the lord wherever it leads.AMEN!?for our lord and savior went to hell and preached to the spirits within and i pledge my willingness to follow his path at ALL COSTS!?......not me you loser!!I"M WITH YOU!!take me to the TOP!!hehe!IT"S ALL MINE I SAY!?on to the GOOD LIFE OF THE SINNERS!?IT"S ALL GOOD IN GOD!?for who knows are TRUE COLORS but the Lord of hosts !?hehe!?
    Last edited by lexx; 03-12-2006 at 09:02 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Thought I'd bring this back up to the top.

    I'd be interested in the new crew's responses.

  12. #12
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Resurrections seem to have been a fairly common occurrence in 1st c. Palestine (and not limited to just Bible heroes, it seems), so is it really too much to ask Jesus to provide just one single resurrection of a child today?
    I meantion this as well, not one of the bornagainutcases even commented on it.

    It is like they only hear what they belive, talk about walking with blinkers on.

  13. #13
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzaa
    I meantion this as well, not one of the bornagainutcases even commented on it.

    It is like they only hear what they belive, talk about walking with blinkers on.

    It's understandable. I used to be the same way...see the world and the Word through blinders

  14. #14
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Well...thought I'd get this up there one...more...time...

    No responses from the various christian brothers and/or sisters out there and I'll let it go bye bye...but I'm very disappointed.

    Was looking forward to learning your thoughts on the things presented here...

    :cool:

  15. #15
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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Worth a try but did u notice that tony and the troll club even answers his own post in other threads but still nothing in this one

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    Re: Will I Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzaa
    Worth a try but did u notice that tony and the troll club even answers his own post in other threads but still nothing in this one
    Say what?.....

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