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  • 04-28-2015, 09:12 PM
    Jax74

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by conserv4ever View Post
    There are TENS OF THOUSANDS of stories like yours (you know that, with your avatar). I'm just hoping these endless stories will trigger a little common sense in those not so tainted with the liberal philosophy. Some will never get that the mere presence of a gun SAVES LIVES.

    I'll never understand how they can think when a VIOLENT ACT is seconds away, they can expect the police to magically appear at that instant. If your lucky, they'll be there 15 minutes after you get shot or stabbed or raped. If you're not so lucky, MAYBE your attacker will be found and do time for your murder.
    I agree with you. Just the presence of a gun can prevent crime. Just like the presence of the police can often prevent a crime from being commited. But you can't carry a police officer on your hip, or keep one in a drawer in your bedroom. Most of the time they can't prevent a crime unless they just happen to already be somewhere a crime is about to take place.

    If there had already been an officer in my home when the man broke in, I wouldn't have needed a gun. But, there was no officer already there. (Of course)
  • 04-28-2015, 06:55 PM
    conserv4ever

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    I've told this story here before, but when I was 14 I repelled a man with a knife from our home with my father's shot gun. Our parents were not home and he tried to break in with only myself and my brothers and sisters at home. Even if the police had been called they would never have made it there in time and we would have been at his mercy, whatever his intentions were. And I never had to fire the gun. I pumped a shell into the chamber and pointed it at him. As soon as he saw that he turned tail and ran.

    And I don't think I'm some hero, I'm just glad my father kept guns in the house and taught us to respect them. I might not be here today if he hadn't.
    There are TENS OF THOUSANDS of stories like yours (you know that, with your avatar). I'm just hoping these endless stories will trigger a little common sense in those not so tainted with the liberal philosophy. Some will never get that the mere presence of a gun SAVES LIVES.

    I'll never understand how they can think when a VIOLENT ACT is seconds away, they can expect the police to magically appear at that instant. If your lucky, they'll be there 15 minutes after you get shot or stabbed or raped. If you're not so lucky, MAYBE your attacker will be found and do time for your murder.
  • 04-28-2015, 06:28 PM
    Jax74

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by conserv4ever View Post
    Yet another story that shows that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
    A husband had to use deadly force to defend himself, his wife and his home from a home invader earlier this week as his wife talked to a 911 operator.
    According to PE.com,
    About 10:45 p.m., a woman called 911 to report a burglary in progress, Riverside County sheriff’s officials said in a news release. The woman said a man was trying to force his way into their home in the 100 block of South Torn Ranch Road and that her husband had armed himself with a handgun.

    Sheriff’s officials said the husband, who is in his 40s, warned the man that he was armed and would shoot if he continued. The intruder did not heed the resident’s warning, breaking a window, and the homeowner opened fire, according to sheriff’s officials.
    The man was taken by ambulance to Inland Valley Medical Center in Wildomar, where he succumbed to his injuries.
    The homeowner is not expected to face any charges in the incident (since this is California we felt the need to say that).
    I've told this story here before, but when I was 14 I repelled a man with a knife from our home with my father's shot gun. Our parents were not home and he tried to break in with only myself and my brothers and sisters at home. Even if the police had been called they would never have made it there in time and we would have been at his mercy, whatever his intentions were. And I never had to fire the gun. I pumped a shell into the chamber and pointed it at him. As soon as he saw that he turned tail and ran.

    And I don't think I'm some hero, I'm just glad my father kept guns in the house and taught us to respect them. I might not be here today if he hadn't.
  • 04-28-2015, 06:21 PM
    Jax74

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    We are back to the argument that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Why disarm innocent people that are proven to be lawful citizens when we know criminals will still be armed?
    He's right Peggy, all gun free zones do is keep law abiding citizens from carrying guns there. Criminals, people intending to do harm, will still carry guns there. In fact they often target those places. In my view gun free zones are useless to everyone except to people looking to cause harm. Gun free zones actually benefit those people.

    Do you think the "drug free zone" signs at high schools actually keep drugs out or do any good whatsoever? Do the dealers or addicts see those signs and suddenly have a change of heart or decide to go elsewhere?

    No
  • 04-28-2015, 05:57 PM
    conserv4ever

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Yet another story that shows that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
    A husband had to use deadly force to defend himself, his wife and his home from a home invader earlier this week as his wife talked to a 911 operator.
    According to PE.com,
    About 10:45 p.m., a woman called 911 to report a burglary in progress, Riverside County sheriff’s officials said in a news release. The woman said a man was trying to force his way into their home in the 100 block of South Torn Ranch Road and that her husband had armed himself with a handgun.

    Sheriff’s officials said the husband, who is in his 40s, warned the man that he was armed and would shoot if he continued. The intruder did not heed the resident’s warning, breaking a window, and the homeowner opened fire, according to sheriff’s officials.
    The man was taken by ambulance to Inland Valley Medical Center in Wildomar, where he succumbed to his injuries.
    The homeowner is not expected to face any charges in the incident (since this is California we felt the need to say that).
  • 04-28-2015, 03:57 PM
    tomInAustin

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    I agree Jax.
    Now we need to get back to this gun free zone thing. I do thing we need certain places where people should not be carrying a gun. The work place seems like a good place to start. A workplace like the Post Office. lol
    I don't understand where you are coming from in relationship to gun free zones and wanting people to be able to have a gun on their person. Do you not want any gun free zones?

    We are back to the argument that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Why disarm innocent people that are proven to be lawful citizens when we know criminals will still be armed?
  • 04-28-2015, 03:47 PM
    tomInAustin

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    I replied to this post earlier but I'm not seeing my reply. Maybe I just wrote it and didn't submit. lol I'm working outside pruning bushes and taking breaks reading Scam.com.

    I thought back to crisis situations I've been involved in during my life and I too handle crisis well and get stressed afterward. Gave me a new perspective on how some could handle a mass shooting incident better than others.
    Makes sense. i'll repeat again before someone thinks I'm claiming to be a hero... I declined to get a carry license, i don;t want to be in that position.
  • 04-28-2015, 12:21 PM
    Jax74

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    I've enjoyed the discussion we have had about guns.

    You think the odds would be better but I myself am not so sure about that.
    From what I read in mass shootings, they happen very quick and the shooter usually takes their own life. In a mass shooting that takes five minutes, I would think the people present would be trying to get out of the way of the bullets, they would be panicked. No time to get their gun and take aim so that they could shoot the shooter. Would have to be pretty darn lucky. Everyone in the place where the shooting is occurring would be taken off guard. There is just no way to know if a person having a gun would make a positive difference. In the info I read, the FBI says in half of the mass shooting incidents where the Police intervened, a Police Officer lost his life.
    It would be so chaotic and how could a person even have the time to get their thoughts together enough to try and shoot the shooter unless they had been trained to do so. Like a police officer, military etc.
    I just can't see the average Joe being able to make a difference.

    If we take a look at something other than a mass shooting incident, like a robbery in a store, I would say the odds are good.
    Peggy, you are only looking at that scenario from the viewpoint of an average Joe. From the viewpoint of someone who is not trained to react, and not panic. In many situations, baring grade schools, there are usually at least a few ex military or ex law enforcement people in any crowded place. People who are trained not to panic, who are trained on what to do. Not to mention the fact that people who take the time to educate themselves and get trained and practice with their firearm, also do not have the mindset of the average Joe who is not prepared to draw a weapon to defend themself. like I stated, not everyone should be armed. I don't mean this in a disparaging way, but you don't seem like the kind of person who would want to be armed for a situation like that, thats fine. But believe it or not there are people who are either ex military, ex law forcement, or average citizens who do exactly that, train and prepare to draw a weapon when needed. Those kind of people do increase the chances that a mass shooting might end sooner than it otherwise would. A fully unprepared person shakily drawing a weapon unsure of what to do, does not.

    I'm not saying that just because someone is armed and can return fire that it would end every situation. But it dramatically increases the chances of a mass shooting ending quicker than it would have otherwise.

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Ben Franklin United States Founding Father.
  • 04-27-2015, 04:20 PM
    tomInAustin

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    I've enjoyed the discussion we have had about guns.

    You think the odds would be better but I myself am not so sure about that.
    From what I read in mass shootings, they happen very quick and the shooter usually takes their own life. In a mass shooting that takes five minutes, I would think the people present would be trying to get out of the way of the bullets, they would be panicked. No time to get their gun and take aim so that they could shoot the shooter. Would have to be pretty darn lucky. Everyone in the place where the shooting is occurring would be taken off guard. There is just no way to know if a person having a gun would make a positive difference. In the info I read, the FBI says in half of the mass shooting incidents where the Police intervened, a Police Officer lost his life.
    It would be so chaotic and how could a person even have the time to get their thoughts together enough to try and shoot the shooter unless they had been trained to do so. Like a police officer, military etc.
    I just can't see the average Joe being able to make a difference.

    If we take a look at something other than a mass shooting incident, like a robbery in a store, I would say the odds are good.

    Watch the video from the mall in africa when the terrorists were in there for hours. Imagine if there had been armed people. The gunmen would have been toast.
    There were heros there that did what they could with no panic. Had they been armed it would have had a lot different outcome.

    Not everyone will panic. All you have to do is watch the news and see common people do amazing things under stress. Save people from burning wrecks, kids from drowning, and on and on. These are the same types that will try and take out a gunman or die trying.

    My personal experience with crisis is self inflicted. I was a skydiver for 7 years with over 900 sport jumps. I can testify to the moment of clarity one has when faced with a life altering event. Twice I had a main canopy malfunction and twice I did exactly what I was supposed to do exactly when I was supposed to do it. No panic, no fear, just action. This is a situation where you have roughly 6 to 9 seconds left to live if you don't do the right thing. (Shaking and fear came later.) That came from knowing the equipment very well. I am also very well trained on firearms. I have no doubt that if my family was in danger I would do what I needed to do without remorse and without delay. I would do what I needed to do when I needed to do it.
  • 04-27-2015, 02:43 PM
    tomInAustin

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    If I misunderstood what you said I'm sorry.
    You have proven to me to be a thinker so I'm cool. The part you misread was when i said the outcome of a mass shooting would change if a permit holder was there. I did not say the outcome would be better. But i do now state the odds would be better.
  • 04-27-2015, 02:41 PM
    tomInAustin

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    When I was reading and trying to understand what we were talking about when discussing a gun free zone, I couldn't find all that much info. I found information about public schools and gun free zones and found information about the owner of a business can make their business a gun free zone.
    From what you're saying the laws must vary from state to state concerning gun free zones.
    States are forever changing their laws when it comes to guns, carrying a gun, permits for the gun etc.

    I can only speak for Texas and by permit holders. Some places are by default Gun Free. Schools, Churches...

    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
    (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
    (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

    (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

    (3) on the premises of a correctional facility;

    (4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

    (5) in an amusement park; or

    (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

    (c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

    (d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

    (e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

    (f) In this section:

    (1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

    (2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

    (g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.

    (h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

    (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

    (j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.

    (k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

    Some argue that making a permit holder leave a gun in the car when at one of above is dangerous as the gun can be more easily stolen.
  • 04-27-2015, 11:31 AM
    tomInAustin

    Re: Focus PeggieSue -- FOCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    I was being sarcastic.

    All I've done on this thread is try to show there is no clear cut answer on how to stop mass shootings.
    And it all started when you mis-read what I said.
  • 04-27-2015, 11:09 AM
    tomInAustin

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post

    In schools I feel we need armed security guards, security for protecting the school against anyone carrying a gun. Not the faculty all armed.
    Agree



    I feel we need gun free zones. Having no gun free zones and more people carrying guns only enables a person carrying a gun to make a mistake or make a deliberate decision to shoot another person.
    If you want to prevent more mass shootings in crowded areas where people congregate have trained security to protect those areas. Better security to keep guns out etc. Not more people carrying a gun.

    What you are saying is "I feel the need for Legal gun free zones".
  • 04-27-2015, 11:07 AM
    tomInAustin

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by PeggieSue View Post
    Aren't most gun free zones located where you have people congregating?
    Why do we have gun free zones?
    Names places that are not gun free zones.
    Almost every public space in states with permits are not gun free zones. You go to a mall in Houston or a movie in St Louis I assure you on a busy day there are people legally packing.
  • 04-27-2015, 11:02 AM
    tomInAustin

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    I don't want more or less people carrying. Only those who want to and actually take the time to train themselves should carry. Those are the most likely to be prepared to act if necessary. The most able to save lives. The ONLY thing gun free zones do is make sure mass shooters can rampage unopposed.
    Exactly. To repeat myself, I went through the classes and then choose to not get a permit. I don't want the responsibility.

    That said, i have no idea who jax is, but if he went through the classes and background checks necessary to get said permit, i would rather have him there than not in a mass shooting. And millions of other guys like him.
  • 04-27-2015, 10:56 AM
    tomInAustin

    Re: He Bought a Gun Looking for the OPPORTUNITY to Kill Another Human Being

    Quote Originally Posted by Spector567 View Post
    This is a blatantly misleading argument.

    Most mass shootings in recent history have occurred at schools. Perpetrated by troubled and psychopathic teens.

    In short the fact that it was a school was the only reason that target was chosen.
    Sadly true.



    Also advocating that we should allow 18 year olds to run around with concealed weapons between classes is hardly a useful or intelligent solution. Unless you seek to increase the number of shootings in schools by unstable teens.

    This too is a blatantly misleading argument. No one is suggesting we arm students.
    You have to stop arguing in absolutes to make any sense.

    If I'm in a public place and I see someone walking around with a gun and no uniform. I call the police. There is no confusion. No matter of rights. If they are walking around in public with a gun than they have an intention to use it.
    For this reason I am against open carry.


    and the police are literally 3mins out.
    MAybe downtown, but in the burbs or boonies that is not true. It can be an hour or more before a cop shows up.

    I can see what you are saying but the mass shooting argument is a poor one for both sides.

    and lets be realistic arming everyone would not save lives. It would just escalate every single argument or altercation into a deadly situation. Yes you could potentially maybe stop a mass shooter, in that one in one million situation but more than likely you'd be the first target or weapons would just escalate to bombs and body Armour.

    The rise of legally armed people has not started a wild west effect like the anti gun crowd predicted. There have been a few incidents with legal carry but not near as many as positive outcomes.
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