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  • 11-29-2010, 06:34 PM
    cirussell

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    Well... I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just going to ramble here and might be completely wrong.

    First thing is that I would suspect is that he's not guilty of espionage. All he has done is publish material, and there are allowances for the media in espionage laws.

    Second, according to wiki most countries won't extradite someone unless:
    - The crime they committed is illegal in both countries.
    - The crime was not be political in nature.
    - The criminal is not their own citizen.

    So not only would it have to be illegal to publish this sort of material in the USA, but it would also have to be illegal to publish this material in whatever country you want to extradite him from. The second point might also trip things up.


    Spain and France both have extradition treaties with China, but neither country would extradite someone for publishing classified Chinese documents.
    I'm fairly certain that the US wouldn't extradite anyone to a country like China either.

    I'm fairly certain that countries that are allies with the US would be willing to extradite anyone the US has indicted for espionage. That would be quite a rebuff from an ally to not extradite someone who willfully posseses and distributes secret or confidential US diplomatic papers. Any country that wouldn't honor that kind of extradition request from the US could hardly be considered an ally or even a friendly country. Regardless, the attorney general should bring the charges and issue the extradition request and let the chips fall where they may.
  • 11-29-2010, 06:21 PM
    kazza

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
    Espionage is another one of those exceptions. I am not sure what the espionage laws are in Australia but I'm sure you have them and they most certainly do apply to non-citizens. All that is required is an indictment by the Attorney General and extradiction from a friendly country such as Sweden or whoever. There is no death penalty for espionage so extradiction should not be an issue. This is a no brainer, I'm surprised that you would think that as a citizen of Australia that you are free to commit espionage against the US with impunity. Where did you come up with that one?
    Well... I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just going to ramble here and might be completely wrong.

    First thing is that I would suspect is that he's not guilty of espionage. All he has done is publish material, and there are allowances for the media in espionage laws.

    Second, according to wiki most countries won't extradite someone unless:
    - The crime they committed is illegal in both countries.
    - The crime was not be political in nature.
    - The criminal is not their own citizen.

    So not only would it have to be illegal to publish this sort of material in the USA, but it would also have to be illegal to publish this material in whatever country you want to extradite him from. The second point might also trip things up.


    Spain and France both have extradition treaties with China, but neither country would extradite someone for publishing classified Chinese documents.
  • 11-29-2010, 05:52 PM
    cirussell

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    You can't prosecute someone for a crime under your own laws that was committed in a foreign country. There are plenty of things I do here in Australia that would be illegal under American law. If I then travel to the USA, should I be prosecuted for them?

    (Although a few countries have exceptions for things like sex with minors, to stop sex-tourism).
    Espionage is another one of those exceptions. I am not sure what the espionage laws are in Australia but I'm sure you have them and they most certainly do apply to non-citizens. All that is required is an indictment by the Attorney General and extradiction from a friendly country such as Sweden or whoever. There is no death penalty for espionage so extradiction should not be an issue. This is a no brainer, I'm surprised that you would think that as a citizen of Australia that you are free to commit espionage against the US with impunity. Where did you come up with that one?
  • 11-29-2010, 05:50 PM
    kazza

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone View Post
    Nice..."plenty of things"


    You outlaw, you!

    OR

    Yikes!


    can't decide...LOL



    .
    I wasn't talking about anything particularly bad. I meant things like drinking at age 18.

    The point was, if you break an American law outside of America and then travel to America, you can't be punished for it. The only exceptions are if you are an American citizen who travels outside America to break the law and then returns, and even then only in very special circumstances.
  • 11-29-2010, 05:33 PM
    pwrone

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    You can't prosecute someone for a crime under your own laws that was committed in a foreign country. There are plenty of things I do here in Australia that would be illegal under American law. If I then travel to the USA, should I be prosecuted for them?

    (Although a few countries have exceptions for things like sex with minors, to stop sex-tourism).


    Nice..."plenty of things"


    You outlaw, you!

    OR

    Yikes!


    can't decide...LOL



    .
  • 11-29-2010, 05:24 PM
    kazza

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
    The internet isn't subject to american law for sure but those who use it for espionage surely are. Here is what must be done.

    First, we should seek to prosecute Assange and WikiLeaks. There can be little doubt that his actions violate 18 USC 793 (e), which prohibits anyone with "unauthorized possession" of information relating to the national defense that could harm the United States or help an enemy from willfully communicating that information to someone not authorized to receive it or from willfully retaining the information after the U.S. government has demanded that it be returned. For years, lawyers have debated whether that language could be used to prosecute a newspaper that prints classified information. No legitimate journalist or newspaper has ever been prosecuted under this statute. But it is hard to argue, based on the available facts, that Assange deserves the same treatment as a responsible news organization that carefully considers the views of the government before deciding what, if any, classified information to publish. The Constitution protects the media, but it surely does not protect those who wantonly do great harm.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1
    You can't prosecute someone for a crime under your own laws that was committed in a foreign country. There are plenty of things I do here in Australia that would be illegal under American law. If I then travel to the USA, should I be prosecuted for them?

    (Although a few countries have exceptions for things like sex with minors, to stop sex-tourism).
  • 11-29-2010, 05:11 PM
    cirussell

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Cos the internet isnt in america, and isnt subject to american law.

    More importantly, the hypocrisy about this one man is staggering. If this same info came to the NYT, or the Guardian, they would publish it. Why arent they America haters?

    Oh wait, they ARE the ones publishing it ...
    The internet isn't subject to american law for sure but those who use it for espionage surely are. Here is what must be done.

    First, we should seek to prosecute Assange and WikiLeaks. There can be little doubt that his actions violate 18 USC 793 (e), which prohibits anyone with "unauthorized possession" of information relating to the national defense that could harm the United States or help an enemy from willfully communicating that information to someone not authorized to receive it or from willfully retaining the information after the U.S. government has demanded that it be returned. For years, lawyers have debated whether that language could be used to prosecute a newspaper that prints classified information. No legitimate journalist or newspaper has ever been prosecuted under this statute. But it is hard to argue, based on the available facts, that Assange deserves the same treatment as a responsible news organization that carefully considers the views of the government before deciding what, if any, classified information to publish. The Constitution protects the media, but it surely does not protect those who wantonly do great harm.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1
  • 11-29-2010, 04:53 PM
    pwrone

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Cos the internet isnt in america, and isnt subject to american law.

    More importantly, the hypocrisy about this one man is staggering. If this same info came to the NYT, or the Guardian, they would publish it. Why arent they America haters?

    Oh wait, they ARE the ones publishing it ...


    Um...don't know much about the Guardian, but the NYT has a long, rich history of trying to the USA. They are the communist wing of our willingly-captive state media.

    From publishing hilariously lies on a daily basis while burying any non-adulatory story about obama and other leftist filth, to the bizarre leftist slant of their columnists, to their eagerness to publish ANYTHING that could endanger our troops, well...


    in a way they can't be blamed for publishing this--I mean, others have the info, and these creatures ARE the top maggots in the biz.

    But there is a reason that CNN and WSJ turned it down.



    .
  • 11-29-2010, 08:03 AM
    thistle

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    If you break American Law you should be punished.

    If you break International Law you should be punished.

    .....

    Beside all that going on with closing sites, this Wiki is still online. WHY?
    Cos the internet isnt in america, and isnt subject to american law.

    More importantly, the hypocrisy about this one man is staggering. If this same info came to the NYT, or the Guardian, they would publish it. Why arent they America haters?

    Oh wait, they ARE the ones publishing it ...
  • 11-29-2010, 06:52 AM
    Sharky

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    All things that infringe on Freedoms are horrible.

    Lest we forget that the Internet was first invented for the US Government and by the US Government.

    If you break American Law you should be punished.

    If you break International Law you should be punished.

    The sites where closed down.


    Laws are in place for this and not Orwellian in design.

    But here is a something to think seriously about.

    As far as Infringement issues (laws) there are people out there that make copies of movies, correct?

    This gives the FBI the right to enter your home and seize all copies and fine you $250,000 for each and jail time for each.

    (Shit)

    Can you imagine what would occur if they, the (FBI) used this law to its fullest extent on all.

    This would give people the power to turn in neighbors,(already do) if they disagreed on some trivial matter (or what they feel is a threat), giving the pissed off one a chance to punish another by informing to the FBI about them having a copy of a film. And off to Jail you go.

    Millions of Americans would be put in Jail and lose all they own.

    There wouldn't be enough Jails.

    There is a clamp down coming.

    But more of one they you could even imagine.

    Yes, this does make me a little angry.

    But I knew it was in the making since 1972.

    As far as Wiki-leaks is concerned, I have a real problem with what this Wiki guy has done.

    Personally I feel He hates Americans and wishes our country to lose whatever was left of, as far regard for us by World Nations.

    But again our( State Department and Military) observations in such material was at a Top Security Level and should of been destroyed after the powers that be, read the reports.

    Now they found an escape goat a Private.

    This kind of information would never of been able to be read or accessed by such as he. You need a Top Security of at the least of a Crypto14 Orange an E7 or above in Crypto. Or it could of been retrieved by hackers in China( would use this for their purpose and not reveal it) or even Israel.
    I suspect Israel hackers. They want us to be totally for them and maybe some of our remarks got them pissed off enough to ruin us.

    I do feel as if a Trader is in the midst, But with higher Security clearance then is being let out.

    I do feel as if our (any) remaining friendly Governments are not going to consider America in anything we suggest as something they should consider.(like using their troops/lending money)

    There is now a World that will be looking at us with distain after today.

    We might as well remove our Troops out of all countries and let them duke it out.
    We are in a hugely bad situation as far as how we now appear to all peoples( Ugly Americans) who once thought we actually cared about them.

    This leak is so much bigger then the clamp down on Internet Sites.

    Beside all that going on with closing sites, this Wiki is still online. WHY?

    America lost the Empire for sure.
    All our Secrets are revealed to the Entire World that we are truly not what we seemed to be.

    The Only thing that could be worse is Losing a World War.

    I always considered diplomacey as fighting the Propaganda against us as if it was a War of Truths and half truths.

    But there are no half truths, there are only lies.

    Do any of you have a copy of a Movie?

    Don't answer that.
  • 11-29-2010, 01:18 AM
    Kelderek

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    They apparently have two IP addresses, one of which comes up as Ireland, and one of which comes up as the USA.

    I'm not an expert on these things, so I'm not sure what that means. I'm pretty sure that they are hosted in Sweden though.

    Actually, just found this which says that they have servers in Sweden and France.
    Yeah, I know they used the Swedish company PRQ before, which was the reason for Assange to visit Sweden at the time he got involved in the rape charges.

    I traced the IP address and it showed Ireland. Doesn't necessarily mean that the servers are located there, just that they use a gateway to the Internet with an Irish IP-address.

    Physical location is one thing, where you get routed onto the Internet is another. I work for a French company. When I connect to the corporate network from my home, I get a French IP-address, which sometimes leads to amusing results (Yahoo shows their site in French, as an example...) When I'm at the office, I get a Swedish IP-address and I feel at home again... :spin2:
  • 11-28-2010, 11:18 PM
    kazza

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelderek View Post
    Hey, don't blame us... :cwm2:

    Wikileaks is hosted in Ireland, at 46.51.171.90.
    They apparently have two IP addresses, one of which comes up as Ireland, and one of which comes up as the USA.

    I'm not an expert on these things, so I'm not sure what that means. I'm pretty sure that they are hosted in Sweden though.

    Actually, just found this which says that they have servers in Sweden and France.
  • 11-28-2010, 10:40 PM
    Kelderek

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    The US can do whatever they want, but if I want to see wikileaks then it's a connection between Australia and Sweden and no one else.
    Hey, don't blame us... :cwm2:

    Wikileaks is hosted in Ireland, at 46.51.171.90.
  • 11-28-2010, 08:02 PM
    Obi-Wan Knievel

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Good lord folks, this is a copyright infringement matter, not a president's first step toward secret world domination!

    Selling unauthorized reproductions of copyrighted anything has always been against the law. That's what copyrights are for, and it's always been law enforcement's job to combat it.

    I'm just as pissed off as anybody that I have to spend $30 for a whole crappy Metallica CD when I only want the one tune. But that doesn't relate to which party is in power this week or next.
  • 11-28-2010, 05:30 PM
    pwrone

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    You should be angry about piracy sites being shut down (although only one of these sites was related to piracy).

    There was no court order. In fact, the site didn't even do anything illegal under US law (and it's not even located in the US). As the article pointed out, blocking that site for piracy is like blocking google because you can use google to search for illegal material.

    There is no such thing as due process here. Corporate donors to the two major parties tell them what to do, and the parties do it. Pure and simple.



    Yep, you are correct, of course, and I even mentioned this monstrously illegal 'lack of due process' elsewhere.

    However, you may want to look at the list of sites again, the majority, or all, are involved in counterfeit goods. Yes? I think that IS piracy.




    Still, can we agree that the larger issue looms?




    .
  • 11-28-2010, 05:17 PM
    kazza

    Re: This SHOULD make you really fucking angry

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone View Post
    LOL...but not you.



    The title of the thread says it all--are you under the impression that we should be "ing angry" because piracy sites are being shut down?

    Or is there a larger concern here, one that involves the control of information by the Government? Hmmmm....

    Now...take your time. Don't rush it.


    Dolt.


    .
    You should be angry about piracy sites being shut down (although only one of these sites was related to piracy).

    There was no court order. In fact, the site didn't even do anything illegal under US law (and it's not even located in the US). As the article pointed out, blocking that site for piracy is like blocking google because you can use google to search for illegal material.

    There is no such thing as due process here. Corporate donors to the two major parties tell them what to do, and the parties do it. Pure and simple.
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