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  • 01-24-2011, 06:19 PM
    lexx

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by truthinquirer View Post
    Many Christians tend to think that and call it "acts of God",
    but apparently that's not true in the case of Job.

    The book of Job gives us insight on what we don't see in the conflict between good and evil. Basically, Satan accuses Job of being good only out of convenience and God allows Satan to afflict him in order to prove Satan wrong. In other words, God was trusting that Job would trust in Him.

    God apparently allows the devil to do what ever he wants... Christians say it's all part of the conflict between good and evil, and yet God seems so passive. Perhaps there really is something we don't see.

    When we look at early Christian history, the Christians who were supposed be the "good guys" had to always confront persecution, first from the Jews, then from the Romans. When Christianity began to conform with the world, leading to decline of Rome and basically a union of church and state, that's when the "Christians" became the persecutors. They became more like Rome and less like Jesus.

    Becoming a Christian in modern times will not necessarily make your life any easier and can never really make it easier unless when conformed with the world. It's when there's conformity to the world, there's little or no conflict. The "prosperity gospel" is all lies!
    what if we say god let's 'man' do whatever he wants, either thru/with god or the devil!? man himself ,has no other alternatives then to choose the string puller/puppet master!? but along with this choice is a feeling of good or bad!? :freak3: :spin2: :judges: : :
  • 01-24-2011, 06:10 PM
    lexx

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    These are crucial questions for humankind. I think the story of Job is interesting in it's telling of God's power over man and Satan. I think it conveys a particularly sad meaning. Job had to endure horrible suffering to prove his loyalty to God. This addresses the meaning of life in our universe according to the bigger picture of what happened to Satan.

    All of those questions can be answered only by referring to the reality of what happened. The whys about life that you ask are directly related to the why of the universe.

    If, assuming the universe was created as a prison for Satan, we are collateral damage. That is a cold cruel fact of life. Humans are destined to suffer the same fate as infra-human species. In that world, there are predators, there is dying and suffering, and there are limited resources for survival. The only real difference is that we have developed language to enable us to understand our dilemma. God attempted reconciliation, but that failed. Now, we are awaiting our fate.
    doojie stopped,(i think)(i wonder why)(did he replace certainty with wonder) can you!? i mean throwin your little pet ditty in at the end of all your deliberations!? and what is "wonder" anyway!? :cwm2: : :spin2: :
  • 01-06-2011, 05:35 AM
    Lord_jag

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by shyna View Post
    God hates those who don't feel regression after doing wrong things.
    Well you're right about God hating... But he seems to hate a lot of people when you look at his actions as described in the bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by shyna View Post
    If you feel regret and do promise to yourself that you will never repeat wrong deeds, God will certainly forgive you.
    And why would we desire his forgiveness? He's not real.
    Quote Originally Posted by shyna View Post
    God gives same love to all.
    It's not his love I care for. It's protection from his followers I desire.
  • 01-06-2011, 01:27 AM
    shyna

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    God hates those who don't feel regression after doing wrong things. If you feel regret and do promise to yourself that you will never repeat wrong deeds, God will certainly forgive you. God gives same love to all.
  • 10-27-2010, 03:27 PM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Your quoting ability leaves much to be desired. However...

    Thought you said you do not listen to what organizations say, so....show me where in the bible it says you are going to hell when you die? The bible clearly states that we experience hell here on this earth, not afterwards.
    Okay. Easy enough. KJV Ps. 9:17. "...The wicked shall be turned into hell...

    Don't care for what the bible says about hell on earth while you're alive. I know that I have better morality that what the bible teaches.

    I have 5 children, and I don't mind applying God's logic at all in their upbringing, no where does it tell us to do the things you just listed. You're just self disillusioned. Learn to read.
    Of course I was being cheeky, but you get the message. But for good bed time reading for the kiddies, lets start with this bible verse.

    Deut. 7 is a nice start. Then I would go to Deut. 20:16.

    But I would ask the kiddies this; Read Hebrews 6:4-8 and ask them if the father of a 5 year old little girl should be burned at a stake or is it merely a reference of my eternal fate of suffering in a lake of fire? Whom my daughter also would be joining me on that stake or in that lake if we are to follow your gods rules and laws.

    Since we live in a pretty diverse country (assuming you're apart of the US) Deut. 13:12-16 puts a neighbor (other religion or non at all) against you in a unique position. You are commanded to completely destroy them and their inhabitants, including little babies and pets.

    My point of all this is that the bible is just rife with this junk and yet people unwittingly put their own little mask on it and call it a religion of tolerance, peace, etc.. There are good people in the religion, but that is the front that the religion has to put on. It's real mission is hidden in plain sight. And you're telling me to learn to read? Isn't there something in that book that talks about eyes and planks? :)

    Actually, it ends with man being saved and harvested at the end into heaven.
    I'm more partial to the Shepard and the sheep. Shepard leads the flock, takes care of the flock and looks for the lost lamb (they're worth big $$). But no one asks about what the Shepard's last duty is for the flock. It's to take them to the butcher. Baaa. -={CHOP}=-
    Does god like Mutton??


    Again, I hear you spouting the same old shyt the Sunday school teachers spout, about old testament rules still applying today. Remember, the kingdom was taken from the Israelites, no more promise land for them here on this earth.
    Cool! Then homosexuality is okay! Since the old laws do not apply because jebus fulfilled the laws!!! Oh, wait. Was jebus actually to fulfill the sacrificial mosaic laws? Awe crap! I guess homosexuality goes back on the naughty list.... But at least I get to eat my mutton!

    Probably because you have your eyes squeezed as tight as you can get them. You're running scared bro, lighten up.
    Running scared from an invisible tragic pixie in the sky?

    Of course the bible says we are here to experience death,
    I think nature has that covered pretty well. I think death is pretty universal. Well, except for a few people that we never heard about dying a second time (you filthy knnigits!)

    over and over, such as PS 82, Ecclesiastes, JC stating that our life is a vapor, Paul saying that the tribulation of this present time is not worthy to be compared to the glory we will experience afterwards, on and on. Open up one of those eyes of yours.
    All we are is dust in the wind.. Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea. All we do, crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see.

    Now if Paul (or god) wrote something like that, then I would think that there is something to it. But it's lame, can't think of a tune that would go with 'vapor'.

    If you are going to Washington, what do you do there?
    State or city?

    Paul plainly says that the eye hath not seen, nor the ear heard, nor has it entered our imagination what God has prepared for us.
    Anyone can make a claim that requires no evidence. Because it came from god, you give a pass on proof.

    But...if you like this world of pain and sorrow so much, have at it bro.
    Yeah, I'm hooked on reality. Call me a softy, but pain and sorrow is a good motivator for some to want to change the world and make less pain and sorrow. Not hide in a fantasy land waiting for the free ride to start.
  • 10-27-2010, 08:48 AM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Let me see, the bible is complete bunk.

    and the bible says G!d hates.

    therefor G!d does not hate.
    Actually it's god and the bible are man made, and stupid or bunk(whichever you prefer). Therefore god does not exist.

    I always wonder why folks that don't believe in the bible use the bible as evidence or proof.
    Its not actually using the bible as a 'proof' against a god. But rather to show how unorganized a persons view can be in something they believe in. When their texts plainly demonstrate the opposite. So are you going to tell me that god is not a jelous god?

    Hint, the bible is a collection of books by numerous authors. Most of it is allegory, parables, mythology, an attempt to answer the eternal questions 2-5,000 years ago...questions we still have not answered.
    A collection, some by anonymous authors, unverifiable and unreliable. Voted in by a majority.

    It does have a lot of good stuff in it. That is what you utilize.
    As do you!
  • 10-27-2010, 07:03 AM
    tig

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Rimmer View Post
    Not really. Just replying to a self deluded interpretation that someone believes god "doesnt hate" when it is clear he does. After all, he is sending me to hell when I die, and you have no issues with that. That I issue I find disturbing.
    Thought you said you do not listen to what organizations say, so....show me where in the bible it says you are going to hell when you die? The bible clearly states that we experience hell here on this earth, not afterwards.

    It's not just a small part of the book, which I can safely say, you've never read, except in bible studies, with select-a-verse. If you have children, apply gods logic to their upbringing. Claim your neighbors property and slay them for it in the name of your god, sleep with his daughter and then tell them the good news of jesus. If she doesn't accept, then, kill her. She's going to hell anyways, what's the difference on timing?
    I have 5 children, and I don't mind applying God's logic at all in their upbringing, no where does it tell us to do the things you just listed. You're just self disillusioned. Learn to read.

    Yes, a pointless circular story ending as man as the bad guy. What a crock of shyt. Yes lord I am unworthy! Its funny the new testament only applies when your held under the faults of gods old testament laws only to be condemned if you hear the new testament message but you have to live by old testamet rules if they apply and fit the message of the day.
    Actually, it ends with man being saved and harvested at the end into heaven. Again, I hear you spouting the same old shyt the Sunday school teachers spout, about old testament rules still applying today. Remember, the kingdom was taken from the Israelites, no more promise land for them here on this earth.


    Jesus loves the little children, preists just love them a little more. Starting to sound like l ron hubbard here.
    Yeah, I love them too, only you have a perverted sense thinking love is lust.

    WOW! Last time I had any evidence or proof of what you say is true was never. So you'd rather live your life for a magic sky pixie then as you want it. Okay, we live in a country that allows that. It never says anywhere that this life is a 'test' or a conditioning course for heaven. Still no proof of a spirit, or a god. Which is the core of religions. If you can't prove the basic tennants of religions in reality you argument is pointless.
    Probably because you have your eyes squeezed as tight as you can get them. You're running scared bro, lighten up. Of course the bible says we are here to experience death, over and over, such as PS 82, Ecclesiastes, JC stating that our life is a vapor, Paul saying that the tribulation of this present time is not worthy to be compared to the glory we will experience afterwards, on and on. Open up one of those eyes of yours.

    If you're going the 'heaven', what do you do there? Is your concept of heaven going to work withh the concept of heaven say for the 1200's?

    If you are going to Washington, what do you do there? Paul plainly says that the eye hath not seen, nor the ear heard, nor has it entered our imagination what God has prepared for us. But...if you like this world of pain and sorrow so much, have at it bro.

    Oh yippie skippy. 'The organization' AKA 'gods mafia' (wink wink) gives us eternal insurance against the baddies gods tells us is gonna happen unless we take the 'free' insurance. You just have to give a little piece of your pie...[ahem] thing is I don't listen to what 'organizations' tell me. I'm smart enough to make decisions on my own. Its not hard to determine on ones own intelligence that the bible (though does make some good points) is bunk. The stories are immoral, and just plain stupid.
    Actually, it's not God's mafia, never was, it's man's mafia, whether it be a religious organization, or whether it be a state organization, both are organizations of man. The bible frees you from both organizations of man. Still seems the religious organization of man still has you firmly under their control, because you still have not started to think on your own.
  • 10-27-2010, 04:28 AM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    Good Lord, what you have heard of the bible, or the selective passages you quoted seem to be really eating you up.
    Not really. Just replying to a self deluded interpretation that someone believes god "doesnt hate" when it is clear he does. After all, he is sending me to hell when I die, and you have no issues with that. That I issue I find disturbing.

    Anytime you read a book, if you make a decision about the book based on a sentence or two out of the whole book, and don't take into consideration the rest of the book, of course, you are going to be confused and ignorant of the book's true message or subject.
    It's not just a small part of the book, which I can safely say, you've never read, except in bible studies, with select-a-verse. If you have children, apply gods logic to their upbringing. Claim your neighbors property and slay them for it in the name of your god, sleep with his daughter and then tell them the good news of jesus. If she doesn't accept, then, kill her. She's going to hell anyways, what's the difference on timing?

    Under the old covenant or testament, man was trying to achieve a likeness of God by the knowledge of good and evil. It was impossible. So God being just, had to hate evil, which was all mankind.
    Yes, a pointless circular story ending as man as the bad guy. What a crock of shyt. Yes lord I am unworthy! Its funny the new testament only applies when your held under the faults of gods old testament laws only to be condemned if you hear the new testament message but you have to live by old testamet rules if they apply and fit the message of the day.

    Under the new covenant or testament, God reveals we are not actually mankind, we are the spirit inside the body, not the body itself. Also, he reveals that he is our Father, and that we (those who experience life as mankind) are his children.
    Jesus loves the little children, preists just love them a little more. Starting to sound like l ron hubbard here.

    It's why we are here, to experience life as evil little bastards that die because of it. But no worries, it is only the body of flesh that God hates and causes to die, who we really are, the spirit within the body, never dies, but is eternal like God.
    WOW! Last time I had any evidence or proof of what you say is true was never. So you'd rather live your life for a magic sky pixie then as you want it. Okay, we live in a country that allows that. It never says anywhere that this life is a 'test' or a conditioning course for heaven. Still no proof of a spirit, or a god. Which is the core of religions. If you can't prove the basic tennants of religions in reality you argument is pointless.

    If you're going the 'heaven', what do you do there? Is your concept of heaven going to work withh the concept of heaven say for the 1200's?

    If you listen to what organizations say about God, the bible itself says that the organization, known as the beast, will rend you to pieces. That's why God sent JC, to free you from evil mankind who judges according to the knowledge of good and evil, and not according to the fact that we are all God's children, having a physical temporary experience of death.
    Oh yippie skippy. 'The organization' AKA 'gods mafia' (wink wink) gives us eternal insurance against the baddies gods tells us is gonna happen unless we take the 'free' insurance. You just have to give a little piece of your pie...[ahem] thing is I don't listen to what 'organizations' tell me. I'm smart enough to make decisions on my own. Its not hard to determine on ones own intelligence that the bible (though does make some good points) is bunk. The stories are immoral, and just plain stupid.
  • 10-26-2010, 10:20 AM
    tig

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Rimmer View Post
    Todays bible study is about the creatures god hates. Let's open up to our favorite hate filled book, Leviticus, chapter 20 verse 23. It reads "...I abbhor them..."Now go to Psalms chapter 5 verse 5. David writes "God hates all who do wrong." That concludes todays study of gods word. Don't forget to tithe and be sure to grab some kool aide on your way out...

    Good Lord, what you have heard of the bible, or the selective passages you quoted seem to be really eating you up.

    Anytime you read a book, if you make a decision about the book based on a sentence or two out of the whole book, and don't take into consideration the rest of the book, of course, you are going to be confused and ignorant of the book's true message or subject.

    Under the old covenant or testament, man was trying to achieve a likeness of God by the knowledge of good and evil. It was impossible. So God being just, had to hate evil, which was all mankind.

    Under the new covenant or testament, God reveals we are not actually mankind, we are the spirit inside the body, not the body itself. Also, he reveals that he is our Father, and that we (those who experience life as mankind) are his children.

    It's why we are here, to experience life as evil little bastards that die because of it. But no worries, it is only the body of flesh that God hates and causes to die, who we really are, the spirit within the body, never dies, but is eternal like God.

    If you listen to what organizations say about God, the bible itself says that the organization, known as the beast, will rend you to pieces. That's why God sent JC, to free you from evil mankind who judges according to the knowledge of good and evil, and not according to the fact that we are all God's children, having a physical temporary experience of death.
  • 10-26-2010, 09:30 AM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by tyler_clarke View Post
    No, it doesn't mean He hates you.God just hates bad deeds but not His creature.
    Todays bible study is about the creatures god hates. Let's open up to our favorite hate filled book, Leviticus, chapter 20 verse 23. It reads "...I abbhor them..."Now go to Psalms chapter 5 verse 5. David writes "God hates all who do wrong." That concludes todays study of gods word. Don't forget to tithe and be sure to grab some kool aide on your way out...
  • 10-26-2010, 09:21 AM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by sonia77 View Post
    "God does not hate"
    I believe in God, although I have pulled away from him over my lifetime. I have never believed he hates or hated me. He loves all of us, and we have the free choice to go in the right or wrong direction. we make choices in life but whatever they are i do not believe god hates us in any way. Once he gives you the free gift of salvation he does not take that away. We have choices ..its up to us..

    Read more: Why does god hate me? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/194742#ixzz12sXIgScL
    First is, yes god does hate individuals meaning people. Read your bible. Lev 20:23, Ps 5:5, Ps 11:5, Prov. 6:19, Hos. 9:15.....
    What would god have to do with an insignificant self righteous being? What if you are incapable of having free choice, now what? Blame your circumstances that god cannot control and you end up in hell because you have never heard the "good news"? Yeah. God hates everybody equally. Also, why are you defending god?
  • 10-26-2010, 09:09 AM
    Arnold Rimmer

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Complete bullshit.

    Have you ever seen someone drown? I have, and it's fvcking awful...terrible. When the Tsunami hit 2004...do you know how many children drowned that day...each one having to experience that terror and pain.

    "he loves us all"?....Fvck god.
    No. He just loves the ones that survive.
  • 10-25-2010, 02:28 PM
    Lord_jag

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    AH! You got me! I tuely believe in the sky fairy! OH the humanity! How could you have known my thoughts better than me!??!

    And of course all morality comes only from the bible. In fact if it wasn't for the bible I'm sure you would have to succumb to your desires to "sin" in all kinds of cruel and disgusting ways! You are really a sick and twisted disgusting creature, so it's sure a good thing you have a bible to tell you it's wrong and keep you from acting on your desires.

    I on the other hand have no desire to do what your sky fairy calls sins because I know that they are wrong and doing things that are wrong make you evil. I don't need to think that someone is watching me to not kill some one. I don't need to know that I will be judged by a creature that I've never seen to not rape someone.

    I'm really sorry that you can't do the same. Keep your bible... It sounds like you REALLY need it.

    While you're at it you may as well pick up a history book. You don't think mankind and society has changed dramatically in 6000 years? Today's world would be almost unfathomable to someone from even 50 years ago. Imagine a world where women get to vote? I'm sure they couldn't. Ever seen a senior citizen try to figure out internet banking? But sure. Adam could figure it out, right? Ya sure.

    So when you see your kid running out into the street with cars zooming by you just sit back and chuckle to yourself and say "Well they won't do THAT again!?" Cause that's what your God does.... Except he made the car's and put them on the road for you to run out in front of.
  • 10-25-2010, 08:25 AM
    tig

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
    HAHAHAHAHA! uh... no. He's far quicker to insult and has a much shorter temper.
    That's arguable.

    Wow... another lie from a creationist... who would expect otherwise?
    Why do you have such a problem with people who lie? Who told you that it was wrong? Oh, yeah, the magical sky fairy? (of course, we both know you secretly believe in him)

    I don't hate God. Never did, never will. He just simply does not exist. How can you hate something that does not exist.
    You make a pretty good go at it.


    The mythical being of God is extremely evil mind you, but I don't hate God any more than I hate Lex Luther or the Decepticons. (Superman and transformers references)
    Evil? Who told you that God was evil? What is evil? Oh, yeah, you're following the sky fairy even though you claim not to believe in him.


    Uh no. What school do your kids go to?
    Doesn't matter. All school in painful to some extent, with some enjoyment too. Just like this school that God is putting us through.

    Mine enjoy going to school. There are plenty of ways to teach without murder, torture or abuse. God is just incapable of knowing them. You can't blame God though. Fiction writers of the first century didn't know half of what we know about psychology today.
    Funny you think so. Yet we still follow every one of their beliefs on right and wrong. Man has not advanced since the very first man 6000 yrs ago as far as intelligence is concerned. You think too highly of yourself.

    Adam would do just fine in today's world. He would probably say, "man has made a few discoveries since my time, though I thought it would be much more advanced that this."


    Have you been to New Orleans? I think you need to go.
    Been there, on tv. Ever seen 1000 ways to die? Death, it's our last exam, enjoy. Plus, who told you that death is not good? Was it the sky fairy?

    Nice... The vision of your God chuckling while he watches someone struggle to gain just one more breath before they drown to death. Yes... These is the actions of a creature who loves you.... sure...
    Actually, I said he chuckles when we bitch and moan and groan and hate him about the school he is sending us through. But, hey, we all bitch moan and groan and hate. I chuckle at my own childrens bitching, moaning, and groaning, and hating when I make them do something that they don't like. And yes, it is the actions of a creature that loves us.
  • 10-20-2010, 02:37 PM
    Lord_jag

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    Are you and the Lord Jag the same person?
    HAHAHAHAHA! uh... no. He's far quicker to insult and has a much shorter temper.
    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    In any case, you two are learning the lesson spoken of in the old testament really well. You are hating God, that's what having to do something to be approved by God does, makes you hate him, because we are all dirty little sneaks that wants God to do his part, but we don't want to do our part, and can't do our part. That is the lesson we learned through the old testament of the bible.
    Wow... another lie from a creationist... who would expect otherwise?

    I don't hate God. Never did, never will. He just simply does not exist. How can you hate something that does not exist.

    The mythical being of God is extremely evil mind you, but I don't hate God any more than I hate Lex Luther or the Decepticons. (Superman and transformers references)
    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    So...let me ask you. When you send your kids to school to learn, do they hate you? Well...yes. School is painful, cruel, and unpleasant. Do our kids hate their teachers for putting them through hell? Yes, at first, only later do we come to love them for these valuable lesson they teach us.
    Uh no. What school do your kids go to?

    Mine enjoy going to school. There are plenty of ways to teach without murder, torture or abuse. God is just incapable of knowing them. You can't blame God though. Fiction writers of the first century didn't know half of what we know about psychology today.
    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    Drownings, tsunamis, shootings, deaths of all kinds seem to be horrible to us here and now. Of course, once we walk through that door, we will see that it was wonderful, and that this whole experience in this world of death was wonderful. When we are going through it, not so wonderful, when we have gone though it, beyond wonderful.
    Have you been to New Orleans? I think you need to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    No matter how much we bitch, moan, and groan about having to learn this lesson of death, doesn't mean God is going to let us get by without learning it, he still makes us learn it even if we say we hate him. He expects us to hate him, and chuckles, and likes it. Part of growing up.
    Nice... The vision of your God chuckling while he watches someone struggle to gain just one more breath before they drown to death. Yes... These is the actions of a creature who loves you.... sure...
  • 10-20-2010, 12:08 PM
    LogicallyYours

    Re: If bad things happen, does it mean God hates y

    Quote Originally Posted by tig View Post
    Are you and the Lord Jag the same person? In any case, you two are learning the lesson spoken of in the old testament really well. You are hating God, that's what having to do something to be approved by God does, makes you hate him, because we are all dirty little sneaks that wants God to do his part, but we don't want to do our part, and can't do our part. That is the lesson we learned through the old testament of the bible.

    So...let me ask you. When you send your kids to school to learn, do they hate you? Well...yes. School is painful, cruel, and unpleasant. Do our kids hate their teachers for putting them through hell? Yes, at first, only later do we come to love them for these valuable lesson they teach us.

    Drownings, tsunamis, shootings, deaths of all kinds seem to be horrible to us here and now. Of course, once we walk through that door, we will see that it was wonderful, and that this whole experience in this world of death was wonderful. When we are going through it, not so wonderful, when we have gone though it, beyond wonderful.

    No matter how much we bitch, moan, and groan about having to learn this lesson of death, doesn't mean God is going to let us get by without learning it, he still makes us learn it even if we say we hate him. He expects us to hate him, and chuckles, and likes it. Part of growing up.
    Your god is a myth. A man-made construct of the Bronze Age as an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

    Second, you are pissing into the wind because there is no proof of your god or any god.

    You analogy is laughable.
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