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  • 06-27-2015, 06:43 AM
    Gazza.

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Thank you!

    This is my Biblical understanding and so let me make a disclaimer that it's unlikely to be accepted by an atheist but at least it sheds some light on old and new testament in terms of dealing with sin.

    In the old testament, all sin still needed to be dealt with by the shedding of blood and in certain cases, the offender stoned to death. Blood is life, thus sin was "paid for" by the shedding of blood. Sometimes the blood was shed by the sinner. This was usually accomplished by various animal sacrifices. In Leviticus, it explains the laws and the sacrifices that needed to be made to atone for sin. The Bible also speaks of rituals done by the High Priest to sacrifice animals in the "most holy place" (in the Temple) to atone for the sins of the people, along with some other rituals. But animal sacrifices were simply temporary atonements so based on the Biblical explanation, God decided to send the ultimate sacrifice to atone for sin once and for all.

    That sacrifice was Jesus. A sinless perfect lamb of God who was crucified and died to atone for the sins of people once and for all. In the book of Hebrews, it says that Jesus is the highest priest who is able to atone for the world's sins. In the new testament, Jesus says the only way to heaven is thru him (John 14:6). Thus the Bible suggests and Jesus is the gatekeeper of sorts to heaven. Some explain that Jesus is your attorney and God is the judge. Jesus advocates for those who proclaim him as savior.

    I know a point of contention for atheists is how can God also be Jesus (Father and son). For that I offer this explanation. Everyone who is a father, is also a son. God is however, triune (according to the Holy Bible). Thus God is Father, (Holy) Spirit and Son. To illustrate this, a man can also be a father, a son and for example a carpenter. Sort of different identities of one person. Wearing different hats if you will.

    So atheists will still reject the existence of God, but that's a Biblical explanation (in a short nutshell) of the differences between the OT and NT as far as dealing with sin.
    You were right.

    I find that explanation unacceptable.

    I believe Jesus existed but he was not the son of any god.

    According to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, he tried to teach people that the original word of God was wrong in the way he treated sinners.

    In fact, he was creating his own religion....Christianity.

    The religious leaders of the time wanted him gone so they handed him over to the Romans and they crucified him.

    Jesus' followers continued with the formation of Christianity (after a long hiatus of nearly 100 years) which flourished because in their writings, they portrayed him as a martyr and the son of God....Both of which are pure fantasy but, unfortunately for mankind, became popular belief.


    .
  • 06-26-2015, 08:33 PM
    Joecool44

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Fair enough, and thanks for the clean exchange. It raises my respect for you.

    I can accept your answers as what you truly believe but there are passages in all the different religious teachings which calls for the death of sinners.

    So, what DOES one actually believe? The Old Testament with it's fire and brimstone or the New Testament with it's loving and benevolent Jesus teaching the opposite?

    .
    Thank you!

    This is my Biblical understanding and so let me make a disclaimer that it's unlikely to be accepted by an atheist but at least it sheds some light on old and new testament in terms of dealing with sin.

    In the old testament, all sin still needed to be dealt with by the shedding of blood and in certain cases, the offender stoned to death. Blood is life, thus sin was "paid for" by the shedding of blood. Sometimes the blood was shed by the sinner. This was usually accomplished by various animal sacrifices. In Leviticus, it explains the laws and the sacrifices that needed to be made to atone for sin. The Bible also speaks of rituals done by the High Priest to sacrifice animals in the "most holy place" (in the Temple) to atone for the sins of the people, along with some other rituals. But animal sacrifices were simply temporary atonements so based on the Biblical explanation, God decided to send the ultimate sacrifice to atone for sin once and for all.

    That sacrifice was Jesus. A sinless perfect lamb of God who was crucified and died to atone for the sins of people once and for all. In the book of Hebrews, it says that Jesus is the highest priest who is able to atone for the world's sins. In the new testament, Jesus says the only way to heaven is thru him (John 14:6). Thus the Bible suggests and Jesus is the gatekeeper of sorts to heaven. Some explain that Jesus is your attorney and God is the judge. Jesus advocates for those who proclaim him as savior.

    I know a point of contention for atheists is how can God also be Jesus (Father and son). For that I offer this explanation. Everyone who is a father, is also a son. God is however, triune (according to the Holy Bible). Thus God is Father, (Holy) Spirit and Son. To illustrate this, a man can also be a father, a son and for example a carpenter. Sort of different identities of one person. Wearing different hats if you will.

    So atheists will still reject the existence of God, but that's a Biblical explanation (in a short nutshell) of the differences between the OT and NT as far as dealing with sin.
  • 06-26-2015, 08:00 PM
    Gazza.

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    My answer was sincere. I believe he asked how these "sinners" were supposed to be dealt with based on the KJV version of the Bible. Thus I answered with an appropriate scriptural verse explaining how these "sinners" were dealt with.

    I guess conversely, one could ask if the question itself wasn't asked with the intent of learning the answer but simply to cause a flame war? I simply answered his question and did not engage in any name calling or unnecessary exchange of "unpleasantries".
    Fair enough, and thanks for the clean exchange. It raises my respect for you.

    I can accept your answers as what you truly believe but there are passages in all the different religious teachings which calls for the death of sinners.

    So, what DOES one actually believe? The Old Testament with it's fire and brimstone or the New Testament with it's loving and benevolent Jesus teaching the opposite?

    .
  • 06-26-2015, 04:28 PM
    Joecool44

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Do you honestly believe that quoting verses from the many and different versions from the Bibles will make a jot of difference to an Atheist?

    I hope you do because if you don't, you are merely being antagonistic.

    If you are being antgonistic, you leave yourself wide open to reciprocal antagonism.

    How does it go? Eye for an eye?

    .
    My answer was sincere. I believe he asked how these "sinners" were supposed to be dealt with based on the KJV version of the Bible. Thus I answered with an appropriate scriptural verse explaining how these "sinners" were dealt with.

    I guess conversely, one could ask if the question itself wasn't asked with the intent of learning the answer but simply to cause a flame war? I simply answered his question and did not engage in any name calling or unnecessary exchange of "unpleasantries".
  • 06-26-2015, 07:01 AM
    Gazza.

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Matthew 9:11-13 KJV



    Same verse from the NIV for a closer to modern English:
    Do you honestly believe that quoting verses from the many and different versions from the Bibles will make a jot of difference to an Atheist?

    I hope you do because if you don't, you are merely being antagonistic.

    If you are being antgonistic, you leave yourself wide open to reciprocal antagonism.

    How does it go? Eye for an eye?

    .
  • 06-25-2015, 07:28 PM
    ohein56

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Your answers are all in this scripture:

    John 3:16-17
    Yep, gawd gawd, bible bible...repent or burn forever cause he loves u....u-huh....yep...blah blah blah....

    Death cult nonsense...stuff it joefool.
  • 06-25-2015, 07:19 PM
    Joecool44

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    Didn't answer my questions at all.

    His path is so narrow 'sinners' surround u. So?
    Your answers are all in this scripture:

    John 3:16-17

    John 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
  • 06-25-2015, 07:04 PM
    ohein56

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Didn't answer my questions at all.

    His path is so narrow 'sinners' surround u. So?
  • 06-25-2015, 06:53 PM
    Joecool44

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    Sorry, that's my response to his KJV answer...

    His answer still only deals with adultery...

    If killing for 'abominations' was OK in the old, why the change of heart from JC? Gawd is JC, remember?

    Are the old testaments laws imperfect?! Say it isn't so!!
    Matthew 9:11-13 KJV

    Matthew 9:11-13

    11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

    12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

    13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Same verse from the NIV for a closer to modern English:

    11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
  • 06-25-2015, 06:48 PM
    ohein56

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
    Calm down, mate.
    You brought up the KJV and asked how that version deals with, among others, adulterers and Jokey posted a passage from it.

    No, I haven't turned. Just trying to keep it real.



    .
    Sorry, that's my response to his KJV answer...

    His answer still only deals with adultery...

    If killing for 'abominations' was OK in the old, why the change of heart from JC in the new testament?

    Gawd is JC, remember?

    Are the old testaments laws imperfect?! Say it isn't so!!
  • 06-25-2015, 08:10 AM
    Gazza.

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    Why the change of heart from the old testament did god (ie:jesus), make a mistake with moses?

    Does that count for killing in wars too? How does that work?

    Also, why are homosexuals still discriminated against if the old testament doesn't really count any more? More cherry picking?

    And gods the only one that's 'perfect'/without sin, so that's why he gets cart blanche when it comes to dealing in death, especially in LARGE NUMBERS!? Is that how it works?

    Well, that shit! Sounds bogus to me! Another fine example of christian hypocrisy as far as I can see. It's no wonder so many christians are hypocrites, look at their mythical so called perfect 'leader' yahweh.ing1:

    Don't forget who introduced the concept of eternal torture in hell to the world...his initials are JC.
    Calm down, mate.
    You brought up the KJV and asked how that version deals with, among others, adulterers and Jokey posted a passage from it.

    No, I haven't turned. Just trying to keep it real.



    .
  • 06-25-2015, 03:17 AM
    ohein56

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    This is from the King James Bible in the book of John:
    Why the change of heart from the old testament did god (ie:jesus), make a mistake with moses?

    Does that count for killing in wars too? How does that work?

    Also, why are homosexuals still discriminated against if the old testament doesn't really count any more? More cherry picking?

    And gods the only one that's 'perfect'/without sin, so that's why he gets cart blanche when it comes to dealing in death, especially in LARGE NUMBERS!? Is that how it works?

    Well, that shit! Sounds bogus to me! Another fine example of christian hypocrisy as far as I can see. It's no wonder so many christians are hypocrites, look at their mythical so called perfect 'leader' yahweh.ing1:

    Don't forget who introduced the concept of eternal torture in hell to the world...his initials are JC.
  • 06-22-2015, 01:00 PM
    Joecool44

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    What does the KJV bible teach with regards to blasphemers, witches, homosexuals, adulterers, & fornicators, among others?
    This is from the King James Bible in the book of John:

    8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
  • 06-16-2015, 11:23 AM
    ohein56

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zythum_alex View Post
    no religion teaches to kill, its people who wants to move on this path .
    That's simply not true...

    What does the KJV bible teach with regards to blasphemers, witches, homosexuals, adulterers, & fornicators, among others?

    Better read all of that holy book, and quit cherry-picking the warm fuzzy parts...
  • 06-16-2015, 07:07 AM
    Gazza.

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zythum_alex View Post
    no religion teaches to kill, its people who wants to move on this path .
    That's true.

    The problems begin when misguided religious nutbags feel they need to kill people who they see as a threat to their particular brand of religion.

    It only goes to serve as an inescapable conclusion that, although no religion teaches to kill, kill they do.
  • 06-15-2015, 08:14 PM
    AnxietyBro

    Re: The TRUE Face of Religion.

    Just like how guns don't kill people.
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