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  #19  
Old 11-25-2005, 04:17 AM
RegulationE's Avatar
RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
OK< you seem convinced of this.

Name those job opportunities the Rich have made for the average workers.

And while you are at it, name the wealth they have brought to all of us as well.

Lady Mod
Lady Mod I hope you are kidding here.

Bill Gates/Paul Allen - Hundreds of thousands of jobs for the average workers. Created many new millionaires. Ever hear the term Microsoft Millionaires?

Steve Jobs - Again Thousands of new jobs for the average worker.

Micheal Dell - Once again created many thousands of new jobs.

Sam Walton - May have heard of Wal-Mart One of the largest employers in the nation.

Larry Contos - Doubt you will have ever heard of this man, but he created hundreds of new jobs in our area in the grocery industry.

Bill Hardacre - Sold his Dairy and started up an Electric Vehicle company that created 200 jobs almost over night.

The Remy Brothers - Founded Delco Remy creating thousands of jobs in the automotive industry.

Larry Page and Sergey Brin - Founders of Google, a company now making Microsoft squirm in the idustry.

Steve Case - Founder of AOL has created thousands of jobs.

Pierre Omidyar - Started a small auction site, you might know it as eBay.

Jeff Bezos - Founded some online book store called Amazon.com

Paul Allen also has gone on to provide jobs with the Seattle Seahawks, a start up private space firm (yes they won the X Prize), and many other businesses that provide jobs.

This is just a short list of some Rich and Very Rich people who benefited from the Tax cuts and continue to create jobs for the average worker. Not all of them where rich when they started but many of them where. All of them where by the time the Tax cuts came into effect.


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  #20  
Old 11-25-2005, 04:41 AM
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sojustask sojustask is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Well, that's 12, though I have to wonder about WalMart, they are having issues and I know for fact they treat their "average" employees like dirt.

Now, we got the job creation question out of the way, what wealth have they brought to us? I'm not talking jobs here. I don't think that is what Betamanmn was referring to in his post and it certainly is not what I am referring to.

Lady Mod

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  #21  
Old 11-25-2005, 05:21 AM
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RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
Well, that's 12, though I have to wonder about WalMart, they are having issues and I know for fact they treat their "average" employees like dirt.
Interesting....

Lady Mod you know you earned my respect on the the Brixdale thread. But here in the political thread you seem to be a much different poster. ALmost like you are trying to bait people into an arguement ;)

It took me all of 5 minutes to provide the 12 examples above and I really don't have time to search out the proof that is so easily found on the web with a simple google search. The Rich do in fact create the majority of the jobs that the average worker earns a living from. These companies they created add huge amounts of wealth in this country. Whether is it from wages or from stock value the wealth is created.

Microsoft has created more millioniars then any company to date. They are not the only company creating weathly Americans however. Larry Contos, from my list above, created millionaires out of 10% of his work force when he sold his grocery chain to Kroger. The employees had been given an option similar to what Bill Gates gave to his employees to accept some of their salary as stock options. Upon the sale of his company, the stock holder did rather well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
Now, we got the job creation question out of the way, what wealth have they brought to us? I'm not talking jobs here. I don't think that is what Betamanmn was referring to in his post and it certainly is not what I am referring to.

Lady Mod
Wealth comes in many forms, however the form Betaman seems to be referring to is the wealth created from income. The income is provided by the jobs created by the people the far left see to hate the most...the Rich.

While it is true that some average Americans such as myself create jobs for others, the vast majority of wage earners work for companies created byt he Rich.

I would be interested in your definition of "Wealth" so I can better understand the examples you are lookig for.



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  #22  
Old 11-25-2005, 05:34 AM
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sojustask sojustask is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by RegulationE
Interesting....

Lady Mod you know you earned my respect on the the Brixdale thread. But here in the political thread you seem to be a much different poster. ALmost like you are trying to bait people into an arguement ;)

It took me all of 5 minutes to provide the 12 examples above and I really don't have time to search out the proof that is so easily found on the web with a simple google search. The Rich do in fact create the majority of the jobs that the average worker earns a living from. These companies they created add huge amounts of wealth in this country. Whether is it from wages or from stock value the wealth is created.

Microsoft has created more millioniars then any company to date. They are not the only company creating weathly Americans however. Larry Contos, from my list above, created millionaires out of 10% of his work force when he sold his grocery chain to Kroger. The employees had been given an option similar to what Bill Gates gave to his employees to accept some of their salary as stock options. Upon the sale of his company, the stock holder did rather well.
Reg, really. You perceived more clearly on the Brixdale thread. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I accepted your findings about the rich who created jobs. Though I do know that WalMart is having issues and the only jobs they seem to create are low wage, part time, no benefits variety. That's by their own description, not mine.

Quote:
Wealth comes in many forms, however the form Betaman seems to be referring to is the wealth created from income. The income is provided by the jobs created by the people the far left see to hate the most...the Rich.

While it is true that some average Americans such as myself create jobs for others, the vast majority of wage earners work for companies created byt he Rich.

I would be interested in your definition of "Wealth" so I can better understand the examples you are lookig for.
I would define wealth, if we are talking about monetary, as well above $100 K a year in earnings. Average workers don't make that kind of money, so I'll draw the line there?

I was looking at wealth, and what I perceived as Betamanmn's meaning to be more related to the country in general. What have these wealthy people listed done to benefit this country beyond the creation of jobs? What are they contributing beyond job creation, say towards the environment, or cancer research or inner city schools? Things similar to that.

Does that help you?

Lady Mod

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  #23  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:11 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
Naw. He doesn't post often but once in awhile he makes himself heard.

Then he goes away for awhile again.

Lady Mod
Really.. This little weasel gets himself a bottle of GOP Kool Aid, has a few snorts and then feels emboldened enough to crawl back out of his hole and post some more thoroughly demented right-wing sewage on this site.

Lead a Monkey to drink .eh? There's an example of how he hasn't had an original thought in his empty head since Rupert Murdoch started Fox "News".
He can't even cobble up his own epithets but has to steal them from me while interspersing his narrative with the worn out propaganda he's been taught to parrot from the manifesto of "Pills" Limbaugh.

It's too bad the benefits he gets from his hopeless, dead-end job as a boot licking lackey won't pay for a desperately needed and long overdue lobotomy.


Last edited by dchristie : 11-25-2005 at 06:17 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:15 AM
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RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
Reg, really. You perceived more clearly on the Brixdale thread. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I accepted your findings about the rich who created jobs. Though I do know that WalMart is having issues and the only jobs they seem to create are low wage, part time, no benefits variety. That's by their own description, not mine.
Out of practice here is all...lol...got tired of reading virtually the same thing over and over with very little change even in the wording.

As for Wal-Mart, that company will in fact be the down fall of this country if they are left to continue doing business as usual with out being challeneged legislatively. Their business model is doomed to failure for the contry just as certianly as a ponzi scheme is doomed to collapse. American's need to open their eyes and realize exactly what Wal-Mart is doing if it isn't too late already.

I remember when they used to demand that anything sold in their stores was "Made in America" but because they require their vendors to reduce the price they sell to Wal-Mart each and every year, it got to the point they could not require they be "Made in America". Wal-Mart is responsible for more jobs being outsourced to outher countries then probably all other industries combined.

However, they are still the largest single employer in the US, even if they only hire at minimum wage and part time so they do not have to pay benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
I would define wealth, if we are talking about monetary, as well above $100 K a year in earnings. Average workers don't make that kind of money, so I'll draw the line there?
Since the median income on 2004 was $44,389 expecting the newly created jobs to top $100,000 is a bit of a strecth. However it is a guarantee that these jobs are not being created by anyone other then the rich.

The median income in 1999 was $41,996.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
I was looking at wealth, and what I perceived as Betamanmn's meaning to be more related to the country in general. What have these wealthy people listed done to benefit this country beyond the creation of jobs? What are they contributing beyond job creation, say towards the environment, or cancer research or inner city schools? Things similar to that.

Does that help you?

Lady Mod
Two of the three top Philanthropists in America are on my initial list, Bill Gates and Paul Allen. Warren Buffet w
ould have been on my original list had I gone on and he is rounds out the top three Philanthropists in America.

We don't usually hear about the giving from the rich people because our society as a whole is more fascinated by the negative then the positive. Not all Rich people care much about the items you listed, and not all middle class people do eaither. The truth remains the Rich provide much more in terms of dollars to the items on your list then the average Amreican wage earner. This is either through personal donations, foundations, or corporate giving.

Wal-Mart, as much as I dispise the company for many reasons, is currently working on "Green Stores" that are as friendly to the environment as any major store currently being built.

Bezo is working on alternative fuel vehicles both personal and family. He truly believed his little two wheeled device would change the way people moved from place to place.

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  #25  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:56 AM
umdkook
 
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHARGER
The Iraq war will turn out to be the best thing we could have done and I only hpe that liberals will feel good instead of bad when we leave there.
that is TRUELY a sad, sad statement......We must REALLY be in a bad way if Iraq is the best things we have got going for ourselves....no offense.

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  #26  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:59 AM
umdkook
 
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

hasnt Wal Mart been busted two or three times for hiring illegal immigrants , underpaying legal ones, and hiding all of this???

Wal mart is Not a good company. They sell good cheap stuff, but the cheapness extends beyond just their prices...

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  #27  
Old 11-25-2005, 07:25 AM
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lexx lexx is online now
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

hey regulation e!!what the h e l l is that for a moniker!?somethin like catch 22!?and does your mind work like your avatar!?(closed impossible nonexistant loop)seems so by your posts here!!sorry if this seems like a flame but i just cant make any sense outa your posts so i just call em like i see em!!dont hate me!!and you could even say i'm envious!!like the turncoat in "the matrix"!!if that helps!!:eek: :p :D

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  #28  
Old 11-25-2005, 04:30 PM
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sojustask sojustask is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by RegulationE
Out of practice here is all...lol...got tired of reading virtually the same thing over and over with very little change even in the wording.
And a political forum is a whole different creature than the investment forum. Here, they are a lot more emotionally attached to their opinions, whether they can prove them or not, lol. Wait, I take that back, the Brixdalites were blindly attached to their program. LOL. I guess it's not so different.

In this case though, the facts have usually already been presented either earlier in the threads OR on other threads dealing with those particular subjects. It's even faster to look up than finding those 12 rich people were. :D Which, by the way, I thank you for.

Quote:
Since the median income on 2004 was $44,389 expecting the newly created jobs to top $100,000 is a bit of a strecth. However it is a guarantee that these jobs are not being created by anyone other then the rich.
No, I used 100K as a starting point of what might be considered "wealth" not as an average income. Perhaps I didn't make that clear in my post.

I wondered what was considered the average income. In the south, I don't think that many attain "average" income then. And if the rich are creating these jobs, and I don't argue that point, where are they creating them at and do the average wages in that folks who work for them keep up with the cost of living in those particular areas? I would say that if the job market was so solid and people were making enough to live on and have some extras in life, that there wouldn't be 2 income families, so many people working 2nd jobs, looking for homebased businesses to make in place of a 2nd outside job etc. Nor would GM just laid off 300,000 people.

I read an article this morning that was rather interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/bu...5Gn6k4CQzX/+1Q

It shows a not so nice by product of these tax cuts for the rich that will actually affect them as well. Interesting.

November 24, 2005
Economic Scene
Sometimes, a Tax Cut for the Wealthy Can Hurt the Wealthy
By ROBERT H. FRANK

WHEN market forces cause income inequality to grow, public policy in most countries tends to push in the opposite direction. In the United States, however, we enact tax cuts for the wealthy and cut public services for the needy. Cynics explain this curious inversion by saying that the wealthy have captured the political process in Washington and are exploiting it to their own advantage.

This explanation makes sense, however, only if those in power have an extremely naÔve understanding of their own interests. A careful reading of the evidence suggests that even the wealthy have been made worse off, on balance, by recent tax cuts. The private benefits of these cuts have been much smaller, and their indirect costs much larger, than many recipients appear to have anticipated.

On the benefit side, tax cuts have led the wealthy to buy larger houses, in the seemingly plausible expectation that doing so would make them happier. As economists increasingly recognize, however, well-being depends less on how much people consume in absolute t.erms than on the social context in which consumption occurs. Compelling evidence suggests that for the wealthy in particular, when everyone's house grows larger, the primary effect is merely to redefine what qualifies as an acceptable dwelling.

So, although the recent tax cuts have enabled the wealthy to buy more and bigger things, these purchases appear to have had little impact. As the economist Richard Layard has written, "In a poor country, a man proves to his wife that he loves her by giving her a rose, but in a rich country, he must give a dozen roses."

On the cost side of the ledger, the federal budget deficits created by the recent tax cuts have had serious consequences, even for the wealthy. These deficits will exceed $300 billion for each of the next six years, according to projections by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. The most widely reported consequences of the deficits have been cuts in government programs that serve the nation's poorest families. And since the wealthy are well represented in our political system, their favored programs may seem safe from the budget ax. Wealthy families have further insulated themselves by living in gated communities and sending their children to private schools. Yet such steps go only so far.

For example, deficits have led to cuts in federal financing for basic scientific research, even as the United States' share of global patents granted continues to decline. Such cuts threaten the very basis of our long-term economic prosperity. As Senator Pete Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, said: "We thought we'd keep the high-end jobs, and others would take the low-end jobs. We're now on track to a second-rate economy and a second-rate country."

Large deficits also threaten our public health. Thus, despite the increasing threat from micro-organisms like E. coli 0157, the government inspects beef processing plants at only a quarter the rate it did in the early 1980's. Poor people have died from eating contaminated beef but so have rich people.

Citing revenue shortfalls, the nation postpones maintenance of its streets and highways, even though doing so means having to spend two to five times as much on repairs in the long run. In the short run, bad roads cause thousands of accidents each year, many of them fatal. Poor people die in these accidents but so do rich people. When a pothole destroys a tire and wheel, replacements cost only $63 for a Ford Escort but $1,569 for a Porsche 911.

Deficits have also compromised the nation's security. In 2004, for example, the Bush administration reduced financing for the Energy Department's program to secure loosely guarded nuclear stockpiles in the former Soviet Union by 8 percent. Sam Nunn, the former United States senator, now heads a private foundation whose mission is to raise private donations to expedite this effort. And despite the rational fear that terrorists may try to detonate a nuclear bomb in an American city, most cargo containers continue to enter the nation's ports without inspection.

Large federal budget deficits and low household savings rates have also forced our government to borrow more than $650 billion each year, primarily from China, Japan and South Korea. These loans must be repaid in full, with interest. The resulting financial burden, plus the risks associated with increased international monetary instability, fall disproportionately on the rich.

At the president's behest, Congress has already enacted tax cuts that will result in some $2 trillion in revenue losses by 2010. According to one recent estimate, 52.5 percent of these cuts will have gone to the top 5 percent of earners by the time the enabling legislation is fully phased in. Republicans in Congress are now calling for an additional $69 billion in tax cuts aimed largely at high-income families.

With the economy already at full employment, no one pretends these cuts are needed to stimulate spending. Nor is there any evidence that further cuts would summon outpourings of additional effort and risk taking. Nor, finally, does anyone deny that further cuts would increase the already high costs associated with larger federal budget deficits.

Moralists often urge the wealthy to imagine how easily their lives could have turned out differently, to adopt a more forgiving posture toward those less prosperous. But top earners might also wish to consider evidence that their own families would have been better off, in purely practical t.erms, had it not been for the tax cuts of recent years.

Robert H. Frank has taughtintroductory economics at Cornell University since 1972. He is co-author, with Ben S. Bernanke, of "Principles of Microeconomics."
*******************************

Quote:
Two of the three top Philanthropists in America are on my initial list, Bill Gates and Paul Allen. Warren Buffet w
ould have been on my original list had I gone on and he is rounds out the top three Philanthropists in America.

We don't usually hear about the giving from the rich people because our society as a whole is more fascinated by the negative then the positive. Not all Rich people care much about the items you listed, and not all middle class people do eaither. The truth remains the Rich provide much more in terms of dollars to the items on your list then the average Amreican wage earner. This is either through personal donations, foundations, or corporate giving.

Wal-Mart, as much as I dispise the company for many reasons, is currently working on "Green Stores" that are as friendly to the environment as any major store currently being built.

Bezo is working on alternative fuel vehicles both personal and family. He truly believed his little two wheeled device would change the way people moved from place to place.
Thanks for this, it's something to think about. It would have been interesting if Betamanmn had posted something similar since he had made the statement, but since you jumped in to answer it for him, he probably won't now. I was just curious. LOL.

Namaste'

Lady Mod


Last edited by sojustask : 11-25-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:57 PM
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RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexx
hey regulation e!!what the h e l l is that for a moniker!?somethin like catch 22!?and does your mind work like your avatar!?(closed impossible nonexistant loop)seems so by your posts here!!sorry if this seems like a flame but i just cant make any sense outa your posts so i just call em like i see em!!dont hate me!!and you could even say i'm envious!!like the turncoat in "the matrix"!!if that helps!!:eek: :p :D
Lexx,

The avitar was created while we where pointing out the impossiblity of the Brixdale program. That program is the only reason I ever found this site. Since we correctly pointed out the flaws in the program and accurately predicted its end almost to the day, I don't stop by much anymore.

However, I see you are still posting in very hard to read let alone understand formats. You do actually explain the problem with many of the posters here in the political thread....on both sides I might add...neither side is willing to understand the opposite opinion and things get into a he lied/he lied argument and neither side will admit when the other actually make a valid point.

Nice to see you are still reading my post ;)

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  #30  
Old 11-25-2005, 07:51 PM
HG_1301 HG_1301 is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Sorry lying is not breaking the law.
Ah when its under oath it is... remember how they got your buddy Clinton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
All lying does in the democrats case is divide the country, spread hate, and shows what unpatriotic idiots they are.
Equal opportunity idiotry is what I say. Republicans aren't unpatriotic, hate mongering idiots when they lie? That's only Democrats huh? Gee you're not biased. Oh wait I guess in your world Republicans don't lie only Democrats. As was said in an earlier post, 'all politicans lie' in one way or another because the truth won't get you reelected. To think otherwise is just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Also, an indictment is not a conviction and no proof of any Republicans lying has come to light.
Well someone must have believed he was lying for Fitz to even get the indictment huh? I guess there must have been a conspiracy to find ONLY grand jurists that agreed with him beforehand though right? But you are right in your next statement, only time will tell. Meanwhile you can remind us what scum the other party is when they aren't standing before the judge for perjuring themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Plus, what one man does, does not speak for the Republican party, though the talking points of Democrats and their stooges clearly shows there is a planned conspiracy of lies against the Bush administration.
Do you realize how ignorant you sound talking out of both sides of your mouth? In one statement you say what one man does doensn't speak for the entire party. Then in the VERY NEXT STATEMENT you go on to say that there is a conspiracy to take down the Bush administration by the Democrats, even though its only a few who actually speak out against him. Make up your mind man, which one is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
As a matter of fact, as far as Scooter Libby is concerned the indictment looks more and more like a laugh and political witch-hunt. After all, no one has been charged with any outing of a so-called CIA agent, where the original investigation began.
Kind of reminds me of the Republican witch hunt when Clinton was in office. Sucks doesn't it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Hmmm ďat no time in history has the Supreme Court been called into decide a presidential raceĒ? So what? It was the democrats that called in the Florida State Supreme Court to decide the race. Have you forgotten that?
How could we forget that the Golden Girl of the Bush administration, Katherine Harris, shut down the recount so the Dems turned to the courts for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
All the U.S. Supreme Court did was overturning what the Democrats should never have done in the first place. Democrats like to get the courts involved when things donít go their way. Instead of having laws made by representatives of the citizens, lets have unelected judges make the laws.
God forbid that the opposing party might think that a state run by the BROTHER of one of the challenged candidate, and a legislature controlled by Republicans would not be quite as impartial as they might like. Stupid Dems huh? Geez what were they thinking?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Tax cuts should be applied equally. Anyone with common sense can see those who make the most money pay most of the taxes. It is only right and moral that when money is given back they should get their equal share back. Those who pay little or no taxes should get little or none back. Anyone who thinks otherwise is playing class warfare, spreading hate and dividing the country.
Read by me, 'if you disagree with me (you)here you are wrong and are ruining the country'. Lovely attitude. Sounds like you are the one spreading hate and dividing the country. Very productive attitude too. Again I will go back to poor people who have very little to begin with. As far as you are concerned, from your stance, they should not get any help from any government organizations, correct? They should just stay poor because, it really does take money to make money in most cases. If they are uneducated and not overly bright they might not have the opportunites that someone born into a more priveleged position might have. But that is irrelevant? They should just get less because they contribute less. Sounds peachy lets do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
"I" am outnumbered by the average wage earner? Hmm that is a laugh. I am an average wage earner but respect those who bust their butts and risk to make jobs for the rest of us. I don't want those risking their assets and life to create a better society for the rest of us to be penalized more then their fair share. Sure they benefit too, but all us ďaverageĒ workers would not have jobs without those providing job opportunities for us. Honestly, if not a consumption tax, a flat tax would be most fair. I appreciate those with money as I realize this would be a poor, third world country without the Bill Gates, Donald Trumps, and everyone other business person who makes this country great. Itís a shame Democrats prefer to hate instead of appreciate the wealth these people bring to all of us.
Although these people may contribute monetarily to the 'greatness' of our nation, money isn't everything. Big business is rapidly degrading our environment and as the rich get richer, the poor tend to get poorer. I am a Democrat. I don't 'hate' anyone. I disagree with people, and really dislike some that abuse their power and make poor decisions. But you should look in the mirror before accusing those on the other side of hate-mongering. YOu seem to be doing a lot of it yourself.


Last edited by HG_1301 : 11-25-2005 at 07:56 PM.
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  #31  
Old 11-25-2005, 08:23 PM
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RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
No, I used 100K as a starting point of what might be considered "wealth" not as an average income. Perhaps I didn't make that clear in my post.
It is hard to find data indicating how many families are in the $100,00 and up catagory, but finding out how many new millionaires is rather easy to do.

Here are the number of US millionaires by year. Note that from 1997 through 1999 (Clinton Administration and Dot Com Boom) there where 680,000 new millioniares created. When the bubble popped that number corrected itself to a net gain of 380,000 which is still a big number but by the end of 2002 (effects of 9/11 where felt) the new millionaire number was only 200,000.

The Bush Tax Cuts went into effect and over the next 3 years we gained 500,000 new millionaires. New is a strange word to use as many of the "new" are likely some of the "old" that got their money back. Still, there has been a steady increase since the Bush tax cuts.

2,500,000 - 2005 (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/09/news/world_wealth/)
2,300,000 - 2004 (http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/15/pf/millionaires/)
2,270,000 - 2003 (http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/...llionaires.htm)
2,000,000 - 2002 (http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/...llionaires.htm)
2,220,000 - 2001 (http://www.inequality.org/facts2.html)
2,180,000 - 2000 (http://www.inequality.org/facts2.html)
2,480,000 - 1999 (http://www.inequality.org/facts2.html)
2,060,000 - 1998 (http://www.inequality.org/facts2.html)
1,800,000 - 1997 (http://www.inequality.org/facts2.html)

It is also interesting to note that of the top 10 millionaires in the Senate, 8 of them are Democrats. Kerry, Feinstein, and Kennedy are some of the loudest voices against the tax cuts because they favor the rich. I have often wondered why the rich would be against something that benefits them so much. But then again, this catagory of "Rich" is not generating their money through income, so it is not taxed anyway,

Top 10 Senate millionaires

John Kerry - D-Massachusetts: $163,626,399
Herb Kohl - D-Wisconsin: $111,015,016
John Rockefeller - D-West Virginia: $81,648,018
Jon Corzine - D-New Jersey: $71,035,025
Dianne Feinstein - D-California: $26,377,109
Peter Fitzgerald - R-Illinois: $26,132,013
Frank Lautenberg - D-New Jersey $17,789,018
Bill Frist - R-Tennessee: $15,108,042
John Edwards - D-North Carolina: $12,844,029
Edward Kennedy - D-Massachusetts: $9,905,009

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
I wondered what was considered the average income. In the south, I don't think that many attain "average" income then.
The South lags behind in Median Income. The median income in the south is approximately $41,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
And if the rich are creating these jobs, and I don't argue that point, where are they creating them at and do the average wages in that folks who work for them keep up with the cost of living in those particular areas? I would say that if the job market was so solid and people were making enough to live on and have some extras in life, that there wouldn't be 2 income families, so many people working 2nd jobs, looking for homebased businesses to make in place of a 2nd outside job etc. Nor would GM just laid off 300,000 people.
My personal belief is it would not matter if the median income was $10 million, people would still be working two jobs and looking for alternative means of generating income. It is the nature of our society, we want the things we can not afford.

GM is in trouble, it has as much to do with the Unions and the recent 0% financing as it does with the economy. (not bashing unions here just pointing out facts) GM took a huge gamble a few years ago to spark sales. Offering 0% financing to sell the stock they had did not create new buyers for their vehicles but instead prompted people to buy earlier then they would have otherwise. This idea, while good for the moment, was not good for the long term as it could not be sustained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
Thanks for this, it's something to think about. It would have been interesting if Betamanmn had posted something similar since he had made the statement, but since you jumped in to answer it for him, he probably won't now. I was just curious. LOL.

Namaste'

Lady Mod
While I agree with more of what the posters on the right state then I do with the posters on the left, it is a bit said that more posters from both sides do not post their thoughts and have the data to back them up. I can read the papers and watch the news if I want to read the talking points of each side. It would be nice if we could somehow come up with new ideas and purpose options instead of simply cut and paste what we read all over the net.

Politicians do not speak for the majority of Americans, however the majoity of Americans are followers and not leaders so they simply spw what they read or hear instead of actually diggin into the facts and forming their own opinions. Because of that, most posters are not willing or able to do a litle research and back up their postings.

The truth be told, if you where to remove any non-American posters from this board and had a real discussion among Americans, I bet we would find that there is much more agreement then disagreement. Most of us want the same things, we just disagree on how to accomplish them.

The War in Iraq is a very sore spot for most American's whether you agree with it or not. No one likes to see the young men and women of the world dieing in a war, at least I hope not. However, whether we agree that it should have been fought or not, it is going on and it is not right to anyone to simply walk away from it now. Should we have a plan to get out of Iraq? Absolutely we should and it should be a plan worked out with the Iraqi government, but not one that means we simply pull out and leave them in shambles. We are still in Europe and that war was over long ago.

It is unfortunate that each side of the political isle is using this war for political positioning. The vote in the house the other night calling for an immediate withdrawal was a wake up call to Americans. While I disagree on the wording used, and do not believe it represented the orginal comments very well, it did force our politicians to stand up and let their voice be heard. As it turned out, most politicians agree you can not simply walk away from Iraq.

Sorry for the rambling here.

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  #32  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:34 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betamanmn
Of course Democrats think americans are stupid so they call faul and say Bush stole an election, when Bush won fairly stopping the cheating democrats in their tracks.

RIP Eddie
Ha..ha..ha.. Yeah..some of them are so bloody stupid they can't even spell foul.

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  #33  
Old 11-26-2005, 01:31 AM
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Betamanmn Betamanmn is offline
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Posts: 137
Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
OK< you seem convinced of this.

Name those job opportunities the Rich have made for the average workers.

And while you are at it, name the wealth they have brought to all of us as well.

Lady Mod
Youíre joking right? You really have no clue? Again this proves how the left is ignorant and prefers class warfare to working toward a better society for all.

Just for the record without Bill gates the millions of jobs Microsoft has created would not exist. If not for Donald Trump all the jobs in his real state empire would not exist. Without the man who started his small company in a small town and through sweat and determination built this company into an incredible communications giant I would not have a job.

Quite frankly those men who started Wal-Mart, Coca Cola, Ford and many other companies started small and built their companies providing millions of jobs that would not be without them. If you don't like these companies go start your own business, which many Americans also do and deserve respect by creating wealth and employing others.

As for the wealth they provide your idealistic outlook must be assuming I mean wealth that involves Mercedes, diamonds and mansions. What I mean by wealth is the ability to have a decent job, feed ones family, and provide for their health and lodging. Of course wealth means different things to different people, from a simple small house to mansions with pools. Overall because of these entrepreneurs the U.S. is the strongest nation, providing a wealth that people from all over the world leave their homes to make this country their new home. As a matter of fact, what most poor people have in this country (cable tv, microwaves, and cell phones) would leave true poor people in 3rd world nations envious.

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  #34  
Old 11-26-2005, 02:01 AM
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Betamanmn Betamanmn is offline
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Posts: 137
Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHARGER
This site has more lefty kooks than kos could ever hope for. Ever feel like you are alone?LOL
One can feel alone on this site at times but every once in a while a voice of reason pops up here. Plus, I look at the bigger picture and feel the American people spoke reasonably during the last election showing I am not alone. Despite what recent polls may show of Bush's popularity, a good leader is more concerned with what is right then what people feel on a day-to-day basis. As a matter of fact, it is because those on the left are so alone they come here to support each other in their ignorant ideas, which even makes it more fun raining on their lonely parade.

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  #35  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:09 AM
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Betamanmn Betamanmn is offline
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Location: Minnesota
Posts: 137
Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojustask
I wasn't knocking you Betamanmn, I was explaining why you aren't heard often. When you speak of monkey's are you speaking of people like yourself? I've never heard of a liberal called a monkey, only blindly devoted Bush followers.

I have a family to support and we do quite well thank you. Truth speaks to truth and I'm a great follower of the truth. So, when you guys actually speak it I recognize that. When you just repeat what you have been told over and over on the 10:00 news until you believe it's true, that does not necessarily make it the truth.

It doesn't take a great deal of gray matter working between your ears to deduece that this administration has been horrible for America. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this war was a horrendous mistake. And it certainly doesn't take a math wizard to figure out that if Bush keeps spending like he is without getting a return real quick, there isn't going to be much America left to call home. The New China perhaps, but not the America as we know and love it today.

So when you stop believing everything you are fed in the name of "patriotism" and start thinking for yourself again. I'll know it. Because you'll start speaking truth and stop repeating all that Neocon crapola.

Namaste'

Lady Mod
Well I speak of the left as monkeys as they like that terminology so much I assume they must adore monkeys or are closely related to that species. This war was a mistake? How so? People died? So what? People died during the Revolutionary war. Was that a mistake? Nope it was a great success for the birth of this nation. People died during the civil war. Was this a mistake? Well the slaves were freed and the nation was kept together. Truth be told, those whoíve died in Iraq are much fewer then any other war in history. The ability to bring freedom to these people and to create a true change in the Middle East is certainly more then worthwhile, it is truly positively amazing and Bush deserves major Kudos for this. The fact that these terrorists are killing more of their own Islamic "brothers and sisters" shows we are on the right track. These terrorists are afraid we will succeed, which we will.

This country is far better off then when Bush took office. Outside of the war on terror (which actually began when Clinton was in office but we just realized it during 911) our economy is better, more people are working and this nation is stronger as a hole and we are actually on the offensive in the war on terror instead of sitting and taking it like we did during the Clinton years.

Iím sorry you are so depressed on the state of things. This is typical leftist victim mentality. I believe you need to get out more and talk to soldiers who are actually in Iraq (or have been) to see the success we are having instead of believing what the liberal media reports. I believe say you need to look at the actual employment figures and see how unemployment has fallen since Bush took office. It is a shame when people like you believe what they see on TV and have no real understanding of what is occurring in the real world. This is the "Hollywood" mentality. Again I say if people like you were in charge during WWII we would have lost due to the body counts and horrific images that were far more awful then anything Iraq has produced. Armies win wars; liberals and their being afraid to do the right thing lose wars. This occurred in Vietnam. Bush will not let this occur in Iraq.

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  #36  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:40 AM
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Betamanmn Betamanmn is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 137
Re: They Lie, They Cheat, they Steal

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHARGER
The Iraq war will turn out to be the best thing we could have done and I only hpe that liberals will feel good instead of bad when we leave there.
You are right on! Considering previous wars through history Iraq has had amazingly little bloodshed. Also, things always look worse in the fog of war but when one considers what this has meant for the Middle East and what it will mean historically for freedom in the Middle East the liberals will be a laughing stock in the history books.


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