12dailypro.com paid ( not a scam )

[Mercedc2]

i was at beginning suspicious as most of you are... but after investing some money and having some referals i got paid wat i invested + more



and for those who never tried it and thinks its a scam cuz of 1daily or 2daily etc... ur absolutely wrong, waste some money ( not alot of course ) and you will get ur answer after a while.

anyways i got so far 6 referals, and i invested $230 and every 12 days i get paid 40... or around that like 40.** some cents not really sure lazy to open my account so within 2 months and half i got my 230 back + im getting more ( extra 40's ) and i might invest some more to get more :)

and again for those who wanna argue plz dont turn this topic into a fight... u might did something wrong cuz i really got paid in my stormpay account

[fivealarm]

bye bye referral

[Gyro]

I got paid 8 times already by this program. I ge ta good referral commissions plus my own investment. It all boils down how greedy you are if you lose. Strategize so that your risk is minimize.

[12DP Facts]

Guys, all these pay-in-before-you-get-paid autosurf schemes are scams. Yes, people are getting paid today; that's how they work. Everyone is happy until the end, but more people always end up out-of-pocket than not; it's a mathematical certainty.

Read all about it here:

http://www.my-online-income-streams....me-scams.shtml

[edlawton]

At least 2 warning signs with 12dp. One is that you cannot use your money earned to upgrade. You have to send them the full amount every time instead of them just taking it out of the money you just earned. Which means they are going to have a pile of fresh money when they shut it down. Also, they even tell you in the fine print that they will keep the program running as long as they can, which tells you it's going to go down sooner or later.
Bottom line is be careful. I see in their forum that most of the people are just putting their earned money plus more right back in. The best thing to do is to make a little profit then get out while you are ahead.

[ozilinx]

This guy 12DP Facts is a real pain. He is spamming via PM his hateful lies about 12DP. He appears to be trying to promote the site with the link in the above post. It seems to contain links for some sort of advertising scam. If I have to be subjected to this sort of muck everytime I come here I won't bother. :mad:

[12DP Facts]

Hey!

1. That link explains how all these pay-in-to-get-paid autosurfs are scams, and that's all it does.
2. I have not sent any PMs to anyone here at all. Not one!
3. I do not have any site to promote.

Why attack me like that? I just don't want to see people get ripped off. Are you a member of 12daily Pro ftrying to get your 12% referrals from people here or something?

[12DP Nemesis Debunker]

Hello All...

My name is Charis Johnson. I am the administrator of 12daily Pro, the program that 12DP Nemesis is posting about. I wanted to take this time to introduce myself to you and tell you a little about our 'Nemesis' and about myself

This guy is reporting this so-called scam is in fact the person committing illegal acts. He has created dozens of ficticious email adddresses and forum profiles across the internet in the past weeks in order to methodically attack our business and me personally. He has been banned from one popular forum for posting slanderous attacks as well as repeated foul cursing language to other forum members. At another forum, he has been warned of the same thing.

He also harvested our member list of emails from our own forum and sent hundreds of illegal spam emails as well as spam to our ticket help system, again with foul and disgusting threats like, "Go to hell", etc. All of the members of these other forum have pleaded with this guys to stop his vicious and unfounded attacks. But he won't because he is using the publicity to try to draw visitors to his own website, which he posts a link to above. On that website you will find advertisements for a number of mlm and get rich quick schemes. The guy refuses to say who he really is. But the evidence supports that he is Javier Arpa, the own this above program.

There are a lot of google hits for 12daily Pro and scam ONLY becuase this guy has created hundreds of posts himself on these many forum using those exact key words in an attempt to create and support his own hype. If you click on any of the links you will find they that they all lead to posts created by 12DP Facts, the screename he used on all of these other forums.

My name is Charis Johnson and I have been very open about who I am and who I am not. I have never resided or been to Illinois and am not the Charis Johnson referred to in these slanderous accusations. Will I give my real birthday to a guy who has proven he has a penchant for pretending to be other people, creating aliases, and posting libel all over the internet my actual birthday. No, of course not, that would be inviting identity theft by this nefarious character. BTW, I live in an apartment because I dediacted to putting as much money back into my business and into the hands of our members as possible.

Also note than in his fifty zillion other posts about our program, he claims that our scam is set up so we will run with people's money within a couple of weeks. Yet in this very post above he says we will have thousands more members by Decemeber. He even contradicts himself by saying that I am days away from running. This gives you an idea of the kind of skewed logic and warped thinking this guys has. For some reason he has a vendetta against our company or he's just greedy and wants people to go to his site. Either way, his actions have progressed to the illegal and WE arein the process of compiling information for a report against HIM and his actions with the FBI.

If anyone has any questions or concerns about me or my program, you can feel free to call me my office, as I am not going anywhere, as this scam artist proclaims. 704-414-6620.

[jjredick]

Hi. I am here as a person to defend Charis Johnson and her business. I do business with her on a regular basis, and can personally attest to the fact that she has sound business practices and has not "scammed" a single person. This character who is attempting to assasinate her has been banned from other forums for spamming members of those forums. The references he has about her past our false and unfounded. He is purposely libeling a well-respected and well liked business person and a wonderful human being. It is atrocious and beneath contempt what he has been doing all over the internet. Please don't believe. As she mentioned, there is a current FBI report written up about him, and he will be stopped. This is a disgusting and distorted individual who deserves not an ounce of respect or attention. I am getting sick of reading his posts, and, if needed, will assist Charis in bringing him down. Thank you all for reading this....

[macS]

I stumbled into this thread and thought I would do some quick investigation of 12DailyPro to see how it checks out. Please keep in mind that I have not had exposure to 12DailyPro prior to this day, and only viewed their site a few minutes ago.

From what I have gathered, 12DailyPro has not made many significant structural changes that would allow it to be classified much differently than other pay-to-surf programs. Namely, they haven't removed the ponzi scheme approach from their program, and therefore it is still built on the structure of a known scam.

I realize that the supporters of the program will respond with all guns blazing, but please allow me to explain a little further.
A program is not legitimate because you are paid. Simply because it has paid you, or has paid people currently or previously, doesn't mean it will remain successful in the future. It has very little to do with current payment, and more to do with the structure of the program. If the structure is based on a breaking point, where incoming funds are outweighed by outgoing funds, then it will fail. While many people will have already recovered their initial funds, please think of the many other individuals who did not have a chance to recover them. For every dollar of "profit" that is withdrawn by one user, another user has to lose out.

Before you scream "blasphemy" at me, please read this text taken directly from 12dailypro's website:

:: How can you afford to pay at this high rate?
In order to insure the long term success and sustainability of 12daily Pro, your upgrade earnings are financed not only on incoming member fees, but also with multiple income streams including advertising, and off-site investments. In addition, the fact that we only payout to upgraded members allows us grow our reserve fund at an exponentially faster rate than other programs.

It clearly states in the above that your earnings are at least partially paid for by new members. This is directly in line with a ponzi scheme structure.
While I am not blind to the fact that "other" income streams are mentioned, I also notice that "off-site investment" is very vague, and that "advertising" could mean member upgrades, or some outside advertising which couldn't possibly be lucrative enough to cover withdrawal costs completely.

In the end, 12dailypro is offering a ponzi-based program, which is by definition a scam. There are no known ponzi programs that are not ultimately scams. They may pay for a time, but they will eventually collapse. Perhaps more importantly, is the longer they run, the more people lose out on their money.
The more successful a ponzi is, the bigger the crash.

[zapmaster]

Originally Posted by macS

I stumbled into this thread and thought I would do some quick investigation of 12DailyPro to see how it checks out. Please keep in mind that I have not had exposure to 12DailyPro prior to this day, and only viewed their site a few minutes ago.

From what I have gathered, 12DailyPro has not made many significant structural changes that would allow it to be classified much differently than other pay-to-surf programs. Namely, they haven't removed the ponzi scheme approach from their program, and therefore it is still built on the structure of a known scam.

I realize that the supporters of the program will respond with all guns blazing, but please allow me to explain a little further.
A program is not legitimate because you are paid. Simply because it has paid you, or has paid people currently or previously, doesn't mean it will remain successful in the future. It has very little to do with current payment, and more to do with the structure of the program. If the structure is based on a breaking point, where incoming funds are outweighed by outgoing funds, then it will fail. While many people will have already recovered their initial funds, please think of the many other individuals who did not have a chance to recover them. For every dollar of "profit" that is withdrawn by one user, another user has to lose out.

Before you scream "blasphemy" at me, please read this text taken directly from 12dailypro's website:




It clearly states in the above that your earnings are at least partially paid for by new members. This is directly in line with a ponzi scheme structure.
While I am not blind to the fact that "other" income streams are mentioned, I also notice that "off-site investment" is very vague, and that "advertising" could mean member upgrades, or some outside advertising which couldn't possibly be lucrative enough to cover withdrawal costs completely.

In the end, 12dailypro is offering a ponzi-based program, which is by definition a scam. There are no known ponzi programs that are not ultimately scams. They may pay for a time, but they will eventually collapse. Perhaps more importantly, is the longer they run, the more people lose out on their money.
The more successful a ponzi is, the bigger the crash.

Very well put my friend. But remember they will never really understand this because they are getting that fast cash investment fix. This will eventually get the investor to invest even more. They really do not care where the money is coming from. Legally or illegally and in the end I do see how this group will take off with a great deal of money. They gain your trust and then Bye bye. But then again I could be wrong, but it does fit the scams profile.

[vbauthor]

Hi,
Can anyone here tell me if any business can promise to be profitable forever? Even a legitimate bank can fall and ppl lose money. When u decide to invest in a business, you measure the risks and make your move. So it is no use arguing over scam or no scam. If you decide not to play the game, keep quiet and be an onlooker, just like when u are in a casino. In every endeavour, you lose some, you win some.

[JQO]

isn't waking up in the morning going to school a gamble...who cares everything on this site has to be a scam..

[sgtryan]

Sure, these things are defenitely a gamble, but that's one I am willing to take.

I know for certain this site *will* close down, but I'm trying to bank out as much as I can. I never spent a PENNY on this site, I got $70 to upgrade from the person I signed up under (who gets commission from signing me up). So it's basically a win-win situation for me, I don't come out in the negative.

I plan to upgrade until I have around $300 then kiss that site goodbye.

I've been paid twice and I don't expect this site to close down for at least a few months.

A few more warning signs:

1. http://whois.sc/12dailypro.com - privately registered domain, none of their 'real' info is available.
2. If you try to file a BBB report when they close down, it will do no good as their privitized info will be ignored.

Just a heads up.

[Ban 12DP Facts]

Originally Posted by sgtryan

1. http://whois.sc/12dailypro.com - privately registered domain, none of their 'real' info is available.
2. If you try to file a BBB report when they close down, it will do no good as their privitized info will be ignored.

Just a heads up.

FYI...

The information was publicly available until people decided to abuse it.

[Stardust]

Originally Posted by zapmaster

Very well put my friend. But remember they will never really understand this because they are getting that fast cash investment fix. This will eventually get the investor to invest even more. They really do not care where the money is coming from. Legally or illegally and in the end I do see how this group will take off with a great deal of money. They gain your trust and then Bye bye. But then again I could be wrong, but it does fit the scams profile.

Excellent point.

***

[ozilinx]

Stardust
You are anti-autosurf full stop. On GPF you proclaimed HOPS.tk as a scam site even though the most rabid anti-autosurf posters gave it the all clear and accepted that it was not a Ponzi. I don't know what your problem is but it obviously clouds your judgement. You can be found in every autosurf thread on the net under different user names. You even invented 'Smiles' at GPF to have someone who agrees with you. I don't know what your motivation is, but it is not based on any recognizable logic that I am aware of.

[Sovereigneer]

Originally Posted by macS

o.

From what I have gathered, 12DailyPro has not made many significant structural changes that would allow it to be classified much differently than other pay-to-surf programs. Namely, they haven't removed the ponzi scheme approach from their program, and therefore it is still built on the structure of a known scam.

I realize that the supporters of the program will respond with all guns blazing, but please allow me to explain a little further.
A program is not legitimate because you are paid. Simply because it has paid you, or has paid people currently or previously, doesn't mean it will remain successful in the future. It has very little to do with current payment, and more to do with the structure of the program. If the structure is based on a breaking point, where incoming funds are outweighed by outgoing funds, then it will fail. While many people will have already recovered their initial funds, please think of the many other individuals who did not have a chance to recover them. For every dollar of "profit" that is withdrawn by one user, another user has to lose out.

Before you scream "blasphemy" at me, please read this text taken directly from 12dailypro's website:




It clearly states in the above that your earnings are at least partially paid for by new members. This is directly in line with a ponzi scheme structure.
While I am not blind to the fact that "other" income streams are mentioned, I also notice that "off-site investment" is very vague, and that "advertising" could mean member upgrades, or some outside advertising which couldn't possibly be lucrative enough to cover withdrawal costs completely.

In the end, 12dailypro is offering a ponzi-based program, which is by definition a scam. There are no known ponzi programs that are not ultimately scams. They may pay for a time, but they will eventually collapse. Perhaps more importantly, is the longer they run, the more people lose out on their money. I stumbled into this thread and thought I would do some quick investigation of 12DailyPro to see how it checks out. Please keep in mind that I have not had exposure to 12DailyPro prior to this day, and only viewed their site a few minutes ag
The more successful a ponzi is, the bigger the crash.

I respectfully and humbly submit that you have unwittingly described the activity and goal of EVERY business (legal or not) currently operating on the GLOBE at any given moment in time, whether past, present, or future...and that is specifically.....

To take in more money than what goes out in expenditures...its called COMMERCE... Now, if FRAUD is involved in the process, that is something entirely different. I'll give you an example...

McDonald's Hamburger restaurants produce a product and sell it for an intake of CASH. They engage in commerce. If they took in LESS money than it cost them to PRODUCE the hamburgers, they would eventually shut down. Sound business practice would dictate that they must charge a price that exceeds their total costs of production in order to pay themselves and to pay their shareholders... So, how is 12DP in error HERE? I don't see it...

Ok, now let's add a twist and say that McDonalds began a new marketing compaign, with the underlying intent to defraud their customers....let's say they began offering to take advance payment for a year's worth of hamburgers and as an incentive to pre-pay, offered their customers a HUGE DISCOUNT off the normal drive-thru price (don't laugh...they already offer pre-paid cards!). However, after selling tons of discounted, pre-paid lots of hamburgers, they suddenly shut down overnight and checked out of town...having pocketed all the funds from the advance payments... THAT would be FRAUD...

12DP only "has" your money for 12 days....actually 19-23 or so, if you figure in the 7 business day payout time after your upgrade expires... So, what is the ISSUE here? Yes, businesses DO FAIL... That is true no matter WHAT sector of business you're speaking of...

In MY analysis, ANY business you deal with is "capable" of FRAUD... Just like any PERSON is capable of LYING... It is a FACT of human nature AND BUSINESS nature, as businesses are run by HUMANS. So, I believe that as long as a business is operating in accordance with their own stated policies, they are NOT FRAUDULENT....and to make the claim that a business is a PONZI simply because it will fail if it doesn't take in more money from new/existing customers.....is LUDICROUS... You have not described a PONZI at all...you've described what every man/woman who STARTS a business DESIRES....a SUCCESSFUL business... That's what "doing business" IS...... DUH!!!!

You say that just because a business PAYS does not mean it is NOT a ponzi...true. But what does THAT prove?? Doesn't mean it IS either...it only proves the current status of a business is NON-FRAUDULENT...until such time as it proves itself to be otherwise...

The same goes for making the argument that a business IS A PONZI just because it relies on taking in new money from new/existing customers...you're simply describing GLOBAL commerce in its entirety and at its FINEST...

FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY is the REAL culprit.... Unfortunately, early detection is not always possible until the doors have closed, the website is down, and the money's GONE... What's even MORE frustrating...sometimes even THOSE circumstances aren't always a direct indication of FRAUD...

It's a tough game to work with entities on the WWW in trying to make a buck... However, you just have to use your eyes, ears, and GUT... Sometimes you win...sometimes you lose.... Either way, using labels like PONZI and SCAM improperly can simply skew your perceptions and cloud your judgement...not to mention destroying GOOD BUSINESSES in the process by crying "WOLF"....think about it!

Sovereigneer

[Stardust]

Ozilinx:

I made this post in another thread but you seemed to have ignored it. Here it is again.

How do I know that you both use the same username on "every site"? How do you know I don't do the same? You don't, so stop making crazy accusations lest your posts appear moronic. My personal life isn't your business, anyway; it appears you're trying to work your way out of an actual argument by making stupid diversions.

I have plenty of "courage" in my beliefs. Simple math will tell you investment autosurfs are destined to fail. Go present your argument to an actual government official and get laughed out of his office.

Sorry, dude. There's no need for me to argue with you. I am correct in my knowledge that investment autosurfs are ponzis and are illegal in most places, no matter if I had 4,210 usernames. :)

***

[Stardust]

Sovereigneer: Every business is not a ponzi, lest, ponzis would be legal. Moreso, investment firms and gambling casinos are regulated by and registered with the government, 12DP and its cronies are not, making them illegal in the first place. 12DP and others are in error because the only actual revenue available to pay members is that from banners, etc. which would not NEARLY cover the rising costs of member's "investments". The real money being used to pay people is from previous members investments, making it a ponzi. The apparent product being sold, autosurfing, has a cap on it. You can only surf a certain amount of pages daily. Funny, worthless hits and some people are getting thousands? It's clear that the autosurf factor is merely a coverup for the underlying ponzi structured program.

The intent under the program is irrelevant. You should study basic law before using that kind of silly example. If I sell drugs with the INTENT to solely make money, I'm in the wrong. If I sell drugs because I think they're really great and want others to experience the high I get too, I'm STILL in the wrong. Intent means nothing, honey.

I agree that businesses fail. You know what they say about 90% of new businesses failing within their first year. But there is no way that an autosurf program can be sustained indefinitely. Its structure, not only illegal, but sustains no way to keep paying members over time. While an investment firm could technically last forever, a ponzi could not. Huge difference there.

***

[Sovereigneer]

Originally Posted by Stardust

Sovereigneer: Every business is not a ponzi, lest, ponzis would be legal. Moreso, investment firms and gambling casinos are regulated by and registered with the government, 12DP and its cronies are not, making them illegal in the first place. 12DP and others are in error because the only actual revenue available to pay members is that from banners, etc. which would not NEARLY cover the rising costs of member's "investments". The real money being used to pay people is from previous members investments, making it a ponzi. The apparent product being sold, autosurfing, has a cap on it. You can only surf a certain amount of pages daily. Funny, worthless hits and some people are getting thousands? It's clear that the autosurf factor is merely a coverup for the underlying ponzi structured program.

The intent under the program is irrelevant. You should study basic law before using that kind of silly example. If I sell drugs with the INTENT to solely make money, I'm in the wrong. If I sell drugs because I think they're really great and want others to experience the high I get too, I'm STILL in the wrong. Intent means nothing, honey.

I agree that businesses fail. You know what they say about 90% of new businesses failing within their first year. But there is no way that an autosurf program can be sustained indefinitely. Its structure, not only illegal, but sustains no way to keep paying members over time. While an investment firm could technically last forever, a ponzi could not. Huge difference there.

***

So, I should study basic LAW to be on your level? Wow...I guess I'm.....outta my LEAGUE here... Darn, and I was having such a good time too!

Well, since I'm already "stumbling along"...humor me a little longer, eh?

Ok, "intent" is perhaps not the ONLY factor involved, but it's clearly NOT irrelevant... In most every legal situation I'm aware of, forgive me for not possessing a law degree, the "intent" of a defendant is most CERTAINLY RELEVANT in determining guilt and more importantly, the degree of punishment... You HAVE heard of the factor of "premeditation"...right?? Seems to me if I were on trial.....that would be....sorta.....relevant...

Also, with regard to determining most ANY issue when dealing with the IRS, the CRUX of the matter that may or may not save your bacon is......the INTENT of the taxpayer...

Further, what makes something "legal" or "illegal" is the declaration of LAW, either by statute or by historical judicial precedent that makes such a determination.

My analogy was made simply to prove that you cannot, with any degree of validity, say a business is going to FAIL or is a PONZI simply because it relies upon taking in new funds from new customers or existing customers....as I've pointed out, that is the goal of ALL business effort! 12DP may very well turn OUT to be a FRAUDULENT PONZI, yet you cannot make that declaration based on what you've stated....there has to be evidence of FRAUD first.

You are also incorrect about 12DP not being "registered"... They operate as a valid NC LLC, registered through the NC Secretary of State's office....look it up...

AND...what's to stop an autosurf program to continue indefinitely as long as they have LIMITS in place on earnings (such as those 12DP has...) and they continue to grow into other areas, finding a constant supply of new business?? My question to you is exactly WHAT CONSTITUTES YOUR IDEA OF A PONZI??

MY answer is that the term "PONZI", along with the stigma it carries, is merely a boogey-man fabrication made up so we can use it as a LABEL when we see something that turns out to be FRAUDULENT...

The government and taxing authorities LOVE this, because THEY can also slap this label on any company or entity they wish to suppress when it suits their purposes... The term carries great negative meaning and words are VERY *****FUL...and THAT is the crux of my meaning in all this...we need to be careful of how we use terms like "ponzi" or "scam" and to WHOM we apply them... This brings to mind a few more "legal" terms you need to consider....SLANDER, LIBEL, and DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER... look them up too...

I'm not really arguing for/against 12DP here, although I do think they are legit... I'm arguing that the MISUSE and MISAPPLICATION of LABELS can mislead people...and even WORSE...it can do serious HARM to those who are innocent...

If you want to see a REAL PONZI....take a look at the FED RESERVE....or better still....look at SOCIAL SECURITY.... :)

[Sovereigneer]

Originally Posted by Stardust

Sovereigneer: Every business is not a ponzi, lest, ponzis would be legal.

Exactly...and by the same token, not all autosurf programs are PONZIS, lest all autosurfs would be ILLegal...

Originally Posted by Stardust

Moreso, investment firms and gambling casinos are regulated by and registered with the government,

Interesting concept that we believe governmental "registration" ensures security and freedom from FRAUD, sort of like having a government license somehow "sanitizes" things... NOT! Enron....Worldcomm....et al... Fraudulent activity determines FRAUD....not an entity's structure...

[macS]

Hi there Sovereigneer.

Allow me to address some of your points.

Originally Posted by Sovereigneer

Further, what makes something "legal" or "illegal" is the declaration of LAW, either by statute or by a judicial precedent that makes such a determination.

Ponzis are illegal in many nations.

My analogy was made simply to prove that you cannot, with any degree of validity, say a business is going to FAIL or is a PONZI simply because it relies upon taking in new funds from new customers or existing customers....as I've pointed out, that is the goal of ALL business effort! 12DP may very well turn OUT to be a FRAUDULENT PONZI, yet you cannot make that declaration based on what you've stated....there has to be evidence of FRAUD first.

The goal of every business is ultimately profit. By sale of service, by way of fees, or sale of product.
McDonalds is selling a product with a marked-up price to allow for a healthy profit margin. Their profit goes into the cost of resources required for a new product.
12dp on the other hand uses their "profit" to pay customers.
Or do they consider them employees after they are paid?
Is every customer an employee at McDonalds?

AND...what's to stop an autosurf program to continue indefinitely as long as they have LIMITS in place on earnings (such as those 12DP has...) and they continue to grow into other areas, finding a constant supply of new business?? My question to you is exactly WHAT CONSTITUTES YOUR IDEA OF A PONZI??

A business that promises high financial return on an initial infusion of money, and then pays out that high promised return by using newly acquired member funds is following a ponzi structure. The difference between McDonalds and 12DP is that McDonalds was not based on a model that is known to fail.
12DP is based on a model that can not succeed. IF they managed to earn enough profit to meet their high financial return promises WITHOUT using new member funds, they would not be a ponzi.

The government and taxing authorities LOVE this, because THEY can also slap this label on any company or entity they wish to suppress when it suits their purposes... The term carries great negative meaning and words are VERY *****FUL...and THAT is the crux of my meaning in all this...we need to be careful of how we use terms like "ponzi" or "scam" and to WHOM we apply them... This brings to mind a few more "legal" terms you need to consider....SLANDER, LIBEL, and DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER... look them up too...

I completely agree. Labeling programs "ponzis" and "scams" without research is a very foolish and irresponsible thing to do. It can also be argued that fighting for a program without sufficient research to back claims of credibility is also irresponsible. There needs to be a focus on rational discussion, reasoning, and data by way of research.

I'm not really arguing for/against 12DP here, although I do think they are legit... I'm arguing that the MISUSE and MISAPPLICATION of LABELS can mislead people...and even WORSE...it can do serious HARM to those who are innocent...

As I stated above, I feel strongly that poorly supported action is a terrible thing - on both sides of the spectrum.
Being wrongfully supportive can encourage individuals to risk, and potentially lose money.
Being wrongfully critical will hurt the program.
The key is good information, and posting only what there is evidence of.
Unforunately "I think" simply isn't good enough. If you have hard data that shows that 12dp is able to pay out members WITHOUT using new member funds, I would very much love to see it.

If you want to see a REAL PONZI....take a look at the FED RESERVE....or better still....look at SOCIAL SECURITY.... :)

Social security is a hot topic because it has had major difficulties.
It should be kept in mind however that SS does not follow a direct ponzi scheme.

[Sovereigneer]

Hi MacS,

First, "I think" 12DP being legit is everybit as valid as anyone else saying "I think" 12DP is a ponzi... Nothing more than personal opinion on either side there...and my point is that what was previously submitted as "evidence" of a ponzi by means of en entity's STRUCTURE is simply not a good test for "ponzi"ism.

Ponzi's ARE illegal in many countries, USA included. However, I submit that the word "ponzi" has been applied to STRUCTURE and I believe that is inherently WRONG... Just because something is LEGAL or ILLEGAL simply means that the *****s that BE declared it to be so... I do not believe that the "*****s that BE" are infallible, do YOU??

So, what I'm saying is that if you choose to call something a PONZI, and you are making this determination based solely on an organizational or functional STRUCTURE, then, IMHO, THAT is not a completely useful way to look at things. I'm not saying that some structures aren't predisposed to failure, because clearly SOME ARE...I'm just saying that to make blanket statements (stereotyping) which ultimately have the effect of rubber-stamping a particular structural design model as being inherently FRAUDULENT (which is what the government WANTS us to do...) is both WRONG, THOUGHTLESS and DANGEROUS... People want ICONS which are easily recognizable and which require NO THOUGHT... They want to be able to immediately identify something at first glance and instantly categorize it, to be filed away in their minds... This is likely because we have WAY too many bits of information to process during any given day, but it's still the modus operandi of most of us...

The ability to DISCERN is seriously DULLED in the minds of the masses. It is precisely this dysfunction that allows so MANY to fall prey to FRAUDSTERS... Hey, even the WISE AND WARY get "taken" from time to time... But if we can't do any better than sticking "warning labels" on entire classes of businesses simply because they seem to have a structure similar to ones with which we've had bad past experiences, and further failing to recognize true FRAUD for what it really is... We might as well shut down the internet, because the next step is to say that ALL ONLINE BUSINESSES are FRAUDULENT...if in fact, all autosurfs, BY DESIGN, are doomed to fail... If this is true, then they are ALL doomed by association... Where is the DISCERNMENT?

Autosurfs have a different business model than McDonalds or any other "traditional" products/services business. In my view, the "participants" of autosurfs are also similar to the "shareholders" of McDonalds...and are at the same time, customers. Are you to suggest that it would be a conflict of interest for a McDonald's shareholder to down a BIG MAC? (maybe, depending on their serum HDL/LDL levels... :) )

The fact is, we have a lot of new business models out there which are challenging our previous understanding of traditional, regulated, mainstream business and investment design... Just because something is "different" does not mean it is wrong.

You say that a business that offers a high rate of return to investors, but depends on paying that return from a constant new influx of cash from new/existing customers is a ponzi??? WHAT?? Do mean to tell me that McDonalds is paying THEIR CURRENT shareholders from the sale of hamburgers RAY KROC flipped back in the 60's??? Do you not see the fallacy in this??

There isn't a business ON THE BOOKS (correct me if I'm wrong...) that pays current investors on anything BUT continued intake from NEW BUSINESS...

Perhaps the problem lies in whether we perceive 12DP and other autosurfs as either a BUSINESS or an INVESTMENT... Which are they?? Hmmm... I'm thinking they may be a HYBRID...but then....aren't ALL businesses BOTH??

We can debate this till the cows come home... Fact is...businesses are in business to make profits... And they either RETAIN THEM for their shareholders or the principal owners... In the case of autosurfs, they redistribute part of THEIR profits back to their consumer/investors... Some of them are mismanaged such that they eventually fail... However, I believe that failure, for the most part, is a product of poor execution, poor planning, or failure to PLAN...or a combination of all. Design may also have a part in the equation, but I don't see the "autosurf" category as exceeding the failure ratio stats that apply to all OTHER business venture models...

If that is our only litmus test for FRAUD...then the sky must really BE falling Chicken Little...

[Sovereigneer]

Originally Posted by macS

Social security is a hot topic because it has had major difficulties.
It should be kept in mind however that SS does not follow a direct ponzi scheme.

How is SS NOT a ponzi? Assuming we use the description based on it's STRUCTURE?

SS was designed such that it had SEVERAL workers paying IN for each person receiving benefits... It is now failing largely due, but not entirely, to the fact that it suffers from INVERSION.....it now has MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF BENEFITS for each SINGLE WORKER PAYING IN...not to mention the effects of congressional PILFERING over the decades...FURTHER compounded by the SERIOUS errosion of the USD by the FED RESERVE system....but HEY....King GEORGE has been getting PAID, so it MUST be successful! Sorry...offtopic!
:mad:

:)

[anurajhemantha]

Thanks for commenct on autosurfers

Can you tell me that, Any one know the internet companies who gives honest service to us to earn money online.

Please, do u have any thing about online earning schemes or work at home companies. please please mention the sites here for help members :p :p

[Stardust]

SS is clearly not a ponzi.

Link for proof:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/ponzi.html

Reasons as quoted Wikipedia:

Retirement programs run by national governments, though they involve the taxes paid in by workers being redistributed to pensioners, nevertheless differ in a number of basic features that are usually found in Ponzi schemes, but are not fundamental to them:

Retirement systems, like Social Security, are openly declared for what they are. In a genuine Ponzi scheme, the perpetrators falsely claim that there is some business that generates the promised revenues. In Social Security, people know where the money comes from, and actuaries supply written predictions of future cash in-flows and out-flows.

Retirement systems promise a stipend to the country's retired persons, not the quick and exorbitant profits to current investors that Ponzi schemes invariably offer.

Retirement systems rely on the taxing ***** of the state to ensure continuous *******. In practice, this taxing ***** has been used primarily for dedicated revenues (taxes), although in theory general tax revenues could be used to supplement worker payments into the systems. (Historically in the U.S., Social Security has almost always been in surplus, so this has never been an issue.) If the political process were used to raise required contributions via retirement taxes, or to reduce benefits (including raising the retirement age), either across the board or just for the better-off, there would certainly be opposition from those who would pay more or get less, but politicians have only those two choices (plus borrowing) if revenues are inadequate.

In the long run, retirement systems pay out an approximately equal amount to what was paid in, per contributor, plus interest. In the short run, pension surpluses can be used to cover a government's current general-revenue shortfall, as has been happening in the United States since Social Security contribution rates were increased in 1983.

Retirement systems are in many ways insurance rather than investment systems. A person who dies before retirement gets no money back (regardless of what he/she paid in). Someone who lives to a very old age continues to get payments regardless of the amount of money he/she has paid in. And someone disabled, even at a relatively young age (well before he/she can make significant payments into the system, or have significant private investments), still receives payments until the end of his/her life. Due to this, the typical retiree who does not become disabled early sees a lower rate of return than the risk free rate.

Unlike in a Ponzi scheme, government receipts (taxes) and payouts (entitlements) can be calculated quite accurately in the short term (five to ten years), and predicted (with a range of assumptions) for periods beyond that timeframe. A sudden collapse is therefore unlikely.

Originally Posted by Sovereigneer

How is SS NOT a ponzi? Assuming we use the description based on it's STRUCTURE?

SS was designed such that it had SEVERAL workers paying IN for each person receiving benefits... It is now failing largely due, but not entirely, to the fact that it suffers from INVERSION.....it now has MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF BENEFITS for each SINGLE WORKER PAYING IN...not to mention the effects of congressional PILFERING over the decades...FURTHER compounded by the SERIOUS errosion of the USD by the FED RESERVE system....but HEY....King GEORGE has been getting PAID, so it MUST be successful! Sorry...offtopic!
:mad:

:)

[Stardust]

Sovereigneer:

First, "I think" 12DP being legit is everybit as valid as anyone else saying "I think" 12DP is a ponzi... Nothing more than personal opinion on either side there...and my point is that what was previously submitted as "evidence" of a ponzi by means of en entity's STRUCTURE is simply not a good test for "ponzi"ism.

Do the math. 12DP and others ARE ponzi structured and WILL fall, regardless of what anyone says about it. It's mathematically impossible for a ponzi to keep going longer than new investments keep giving the program life.

Ponzi's ARE illegal in many countries, USA included. However, I submit that the word "ponzi" has been applied to STRUCTURE and I believe that is inherently WRONG... Just because something is LEGAL or ILLEGAL simply means that the *****s that BE declared it to be so... I do not believe that the "*****s that BE" are infallible, do YOU??

So you're arguing that ponzis should be legal? I've never seen that law challenged, but if you want to, you have bigger issues than this message board can handle...

So, what I'm saying is that if you choose to call something a PONZI, and you are making this determination based solely on an organizational or functional STRUCTURE, then, IMHO, THAT is not a completely useful way to look at things. I'm not saying that some structures aren't predisposed to failure, because clearly SOME ARE...I'm just saying that to make blanket statements (stereotyping) which ultimately have the effect of rubber-stamping a particular structural design model as being inherently FRAUDULENT (which is what the government WANTS us to do...) is both WRONG, THOUGHTLESS and DANGEROUS... People want ICONS which are easily recognizable and which require NO THOUGHT... They want to be able to immediately identify something at first glance and instantly categorize it, to be filed away in their minds... This is likely because we have WAY too many bits of information to process during any given day, but it's still the modus operandi of most of us...

Blah, blah, blah. I guess being against ponzis is some huge government conspiracy, right? After all, I can't understand why someone would be against something that takes most people's money in the end. What a terrible idea.

The ability to DISCERN is seriously DULLED in the minds of the masses. It is precisely this dysfunction that allows so MANY to fall prey to FRAUDSTERS... Hey, even the WISE AND WARY get "taken" from time to time... But if we can't do any better than sticking "warning labels" on entire classes of businesses simply because they seem to have a structure similar to ones with which we've had bad past experiences, and further failing to recognize true FRAUD for what it really is... We might as well shut down the internet, because the next step is to say that ALL ONLINE BUSINESSES are FRAUDULENT...if in fact, all autosurfs, BY DESIGN, are doomed to fail... If this is true, then they are ALL doomed by association... Where is the DISCERNMENT?

Funny, coming from a fraudster. Regardless whether or not you operate a ponzi, if you support it, you're an enabler and just as bad as a scammer. Anyone can see through your posts.

Autosurfs have a different business model than McDonalds or any other "traditional" products/services business..
That's for sure.

The fact is, we have a lot of new business models out there which are challenging our previous understanding of traditional, regulated, mainstream business and investment design... Just because something is "different" does not mean it is wrong.
If something is a ponzi, IT IS wrong, unless you want to challenge math, common sense, and the laws of many countries, which you stated previously.

Sorry buddy, I'm not falling for it and neither is any logical person.

***

[AcckiySotonah]

íèàñèëèë, ïàòàìóøòî ñòèõè

[allic]

Originally Posted by edlawton

At least 2 warning signs with 12dp. One is that you cannot use your money earned to upgrade. You have to send them the full amount every time instead of them just taking it out of the money you just earned. Which means they are going to have a pile of fresh money when they shut it down. Also, they even tell you in the fine print that they will keep the program running as long as they can, which tells you it's going to go down sooner or later.
Bottom line is be careful. I see in their forum that most of the people are just putting their earned money plus more right back in. The best thing to do is to make a little profit then get out while you are ahead.

that's a good point... i registered today just to comment on the posting above...

[edlawton]

That doesn't mean I'm not a member though...lol!

[Ravensmedicine]

Originally Posted by allic

that's a good point... i registered today just to comment on the posting above...

In regards to that posting you commented on, I think it's a bit foolish to keep reinvesting principle & profits in order to get more and more.
If you keep your upgrades the same amount, then after your 3rd payout you're working on pure profit. Technically it's partway into the 4th cycle. Then if things are going well you can slowley start adding a little from your profits but still retain the bulk of your profits so even if you lost at some point you've still made a profit.

[HI4U]

Originally Posted by 12DP Facts

Hey!

1. That link explains how all these pay-in-to-get-paid autosurfs are scams, and that's all it does.
2. I have not sent any PMs to anyone here at all. Not one!
3. I do not have any site to promote.

Why attack me like that? I just don't want to see people get ripped off. Are you a member of 12daily Pro ftrying to get your 12% referrals from people here or something?

Hahahaha, nice try... all you are doing is sending people to your so called "info" page so you hope they will click on some of the google ad links and you get the income... that's an oldie but goodie.. try making a real content site instead of throwing up that crappy lookin thing...

[vbauthor]

Just got paid again by 12DailyPro while u all had been arguing here. Just trying to imagine if each of your doubters had put in $1k 3 months ago....tht would had tripled!!

[12DP Facts]

Originally Posted by HI4U

Hahahaha, nice try... all you are doing is sending people to your so called "info" page so you hope they will click on some of the google ad links and you get the income... that's an oldie but goodie.. try making a real content site instead of throwing up that crappy lookin thing...

Nonsense. All this link...

http://www.my-online-income-streams....me-scams.shtml

...does is to point out the warning signs that can help people decide for themsleves whether they are looking at a genuine site or a Ponzi scam.

[12DP Facts]

Originally Posted by vbauthor

Just got paid again by 12DailyPro while u all had been arguing here. Just trying to imagine if each of your doubters had put in $1k 3 months ago....tht would had tripled!!

Anyone putting in money now, though, is going to lose it for sure. 12daily Pro is a Ponzi scam. That means that when it goes down there will be more net losers than winners. If you join this late in the game which camp do you think you're going to find yourself in?

[testfbi]

Ponzi Nemesis is A SCAM himself, all name with Nemesis is actually same guys spreading around. See below
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/?u...12dailypro.com

Very funny indeed. Hmm why this guys so free.

Originally Posted by testfbi

Ponzi Nemesis is A SCAM himself, all name with Nemesis is actually same guys spreading around. See below
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/?u...12dailypro.com

Very funny indeed. Hmm why this guys so free.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Suffice to say that, unlike 12daily Pro, I am not taking any money from anyone, so the question of my being a scam doesn't arise.

By the way, it looks like 12daily Pro is in serious trouble right now. They are having (or at least they claim to be having) some serious technical problems. People can't access www.12dailypro.com at all in many cases.

They'll crash for good very soon now - whatever you do don't upgrade now - you'll lose your money for sure!

[testfbi]

This is an worldwide network issue affecting many site
All member can still access using the IP http://216.27.70.13

[Ravensmedicine]

Neither of those links works right now, but I was on 12daily's website at 6 am EST this morning.
I also cannot get into weekly-payday.com and several times Yahoo was acting up. Could be the whole web having problems...

[edlawton]

12DP is back online.

[Ravensmedicine]

It was a networking problem that affected the whole web and had nothing to do with 12Daily at all!

Now one thing of concern is the way the Vultures attack when something like this happens and immediately start saying the program is done with! Don't be so reactionary.

I found weekly-payday down today and might have suspected the same if not for an email 2 days ago saying the admin was going to be at a funeral for 2 days. The timing seemed odd and their site is STILL down. However it is still possible their site was also victim of the network problems and will be resolved when the admin gets back - as long as the funeral they are attending is not the death of the program!

As far as 12 Daily though, there never was any shut down and no one was running. Yet again another false prediction. After all, E-Gold even just suffered a DDOS attack and was down for a couple days.....

It's been up-and-down like a yoyo - don't be fooled.

This is a dead Ponzi scam.

[ozilinx]

Ponzi Nemesis wishes this were so. Unfortunately for him his month long hate campaign under various screen names has drawn more members to 12DP. Under the name 12DP Facts he claimed that 12DP would be dead and buried by the 15th October. He has started using one of his alternative user names Ponzi Nemesis to continue that campaign because his previous predictions had passed their 'use by' date. It can be easily determined that he is the same person by doing Google searches on "Ponzi Nemesis" and "12DP Facts". You will notice identical posts from both. Both identities also have links to his web site which he operates under his probable real name of Javier Arpa.

His motivation for these attacks is not a noble one. He was caught trying to rip off his fellow members at 12DP by using multiple user names. This has been verified. The timeline for these attacks corresponds with his realization that his scam would be uncovered and his final public uncovering a couple of days later. His concentrated public campaign against 12DP on multiple forums started the very day it was publicly revealed on the 12DP forum that a large scale swindler had been uncovered and booted from the program.

Of course he claims that these facts are merely propaganda by 12DP to discredit him. However, there are far too many coincidences and facts for this to be true.

it is clear that this hate campaign was started in revenge for his public uncovering as a swindler.

[enstiles]

12DP is not a scam. It is stable and unique because every 12 days members re-join the program with fresh money, thus priming the money pump.

I have been clipped by several autosurfs that have had one glaring common fault: the ability to upgrade from earnings. This ability prevents fresh money from entering the system.

12DP has improved my life. I got all my money back + in 3 cycles and have been playing with "house money" ever since.

At this point, gas prices don't bother me and we will have a great Christmas.

Thanx Charis!

enstiles@aol.com

[Ravensmedicine]

Some members of 12Daily wonder why someone who is so set against autosurfs would buy 125,000 in upgrades in ONE company! :confused:

If he had been able to get away with his action THAT is what would have hurt the program if he got all those payouts and then quit. He would have walked away with approximately $55,000 in profits! I doubt he would have reinvested, at least not on that level.

Greed - PURE greed.

Enstiles,

12DP has improved my life. I got all my money back + in 3 cycles and have been playing with "house money" ever since.

At this point, gas prices don't bother me and we will have a great Christmas.

I wish I could say same. I wish I had come across 12Daily in May or June and I could have made 10,000 by now. Unfortunately the bills swamping us are more than profits can be made with what little we had to start. I'm still looking at $5 Christmas gifts for a couple of people and cards for the rest. But at least I hope to stabalize our tiny savings rather than watch it be completely depleted. For me it would take 3 or 4 months to make any substantial profits, but that is due entirely to our situation. 12Daily at least gives a chance to reverse the downward spiral.

Please ignore all the hot air above. 12daily Pro has died. The site is down. Anyone paying in now must be mad!

[Ravensmedicine]

Originally Posted by Ponzi Nemesis

Please ignore all the hot air above. 12daily Pro has died. The site is down. Anyone paying in now must be mad!

DISREGARD! The site is down because it is being transferred to a better server. :cool:

This has happened 2 or 3 times in the past. People shouldn't freak out and jump to conclusions just because of network problems. I see people still using E-Gold and it was down for 2 days!

"12daily Pro has died."

As soon as 12Daily comes back on line we will yet again see this^ is another false prophecy.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
~ Deuteronomy 18:22

[edlawton]

Ravensmedicine,
I was just about to post about 12DP moving servers but you beat me to it! :)

Originally Posted by Ravensmedicine

DISREGARD! The site is down because it is being transferred to a better server.

No - that was their excuse last week. You 12daily Pro cheerleaders make me puke. You are helping to prop up a Ponzi scam that is robbing tens of thousands of people. Shame on you!