Conversation with a UFirst Agent

[BartBandy]

I've been critical of the Money Merge Account from United First Financial for over a year. It's an expensive, convoluted mortgage acceleration system that actually decellerates a mortgage in most cases, compared to what one can do very easily on their own.

When I post about the MMA, my contact email goes to a special account I've set up for the purpose. What follows is the conversations that occurred when one UFF agent decided he could convince me the MMA was legit:

To: (Me)
From: John

Saw some of your comments about UFirst

Dear Sir,

I actually got to your site by mistake, but it was late and I am curious so I read a little. I get the feeling you think UFirst is a scam. I am an agent of UFirst and I can assure you it is not. I have eight years experience in the Financial industry and the last seven years have been in direct sales of other products. I am proud of what I do because I help so many people and yet I make a decent living. The agents at UFirst do not get rich like many sale people I know, but they make decent money.
Like any tool it can be misused, not used, or forgotten about, but when used properly I have yet to see anything that cost so little, is so easy to use, and delivers so much in return.
This is the first time I have ever used any message board like this and unless you want to contact me directly it will probably be the last. I don't have a lot of free time. I will be happy to educate and enlighten you however if you wish to email me directly.
I consider myself a honorable Christian man. I have never sold anything that I thought was a bad product, misrepresented, or did not work. I can say I represent UFirst with more pride and joy than I have any other company, and I take pleasure in being able to help so many people.

John (Last Name Removed)

Some emails took place after this, but no comparisons were made, until John emailed me these results in a larger spreadsheet:

To: (Me), CH, TH, Jim
From: John


Gentlemen,

Attached is a spread sheet I made of all the ways I could think of paying off a mortgage. This assumes they have $3,500.00 in savings for the UFirst MMA, and that the savings stay even at 4% / year. I figured the payoff and eventual amount in savings at the end of thirty years using the following seven methods.

1) Just making the house payment and keeping the $3,500.00 in savings and never doing anything with the discresonary income.

...

5) All discresonary income added to the monthly payment. The $3,500.00 kept in savings, when the house is paid for all payments and discresonary gos into savings.

...

7) Using the UFirst MMA

As you can see doing nothing is the worst scenerio and using the UFirst MMA is the best. No matter what. What makes this really unbelievable is that I used a scenerio of not having a HELOC or ALOC but a credit card at 23% interest. When you use a HELOC or ALOC the numbers are even much better for the UFirst MMA. Of course they stay the same for the rest of the scenerios.
Please check my numbers but I believe they are very close. They may be off by a very little on the savings side due to the partial year figures. Please let me know what you think.

To: John
From: (Me)

...let's keep it simple and just compare UFirst and adding $100 of discretionary income to the monthly mortgage payment.

First, if you get to play with the $3500 in savings and give it to a UFirst agent, then I get to use it, too. I choose to apply it directly to the mortgage. My mortgage balance is suddenly $196,500. I'm already $3500 ahead of you. Follow?

To keep things simple, let's just recalculate the amortization. For the purposes of determining the payoff date, it doesn't matter if I recalculate or simply reduce the interest amount per month. Now, my basic monthly mortgage payment drops from $1199.10 to $1178.12.

I'm still paying $1199.10 + $100 = 1299.10 every month, but my basic amount has dropped to $1178.12

$1299.10 - $1178.12 = $120.98

If I had $100 in discretionary before, I now have $120.98.

$196500 mortgage, 30 years @ 6%, with an extra $120.98 every month.....

23.67 years (23 years, 8 months)

Not 25.5 years, and definitely faster than UFirst's 25.2 years. 18 months faster, in fact.

Now, I'm starting with $0 in savings, but I have 18 months to catch up. I get $1299.10 every month for 76 months, compounded at 4% APR.

After 76 months? $112,152 in savings. You had $84,548.

In this example, DIY beats UFirst by 18 months in payoff date, and $27,604 in savings at the end of 30 years.

Go through the numbers and run them on any calculator you like. Let me know if I made any mistakes.

To: (Me)
From: John

Your numbers are correct. With $100.00 your scenerio is better. If you run the numbers at $300.00 & $500.00 you will find that they are very very close to the same. Keep in mind I ran this with a 23% C.C. Also keep in mind, this was just one debt, not multiple debts which is reality. The MMA is much better when used in mutiple debt situations, "real life". That is why the new version is so *****full. Show me that in a DIY scenerio.
Yes a person "Can" do it and I never said they couldn't. With multiple debts and if anything changes it is very difficult. Thats why people don't do it. Thats what it amounts to what will help people get out of debt faster. Ultimately it is education, and realization. that is hard to instill into someone.
Let me ask you are you against UFirst as far as a product, or are you against the way it is marketed. Or better put, would you recomend it if it was free. Because then of your scenerios would have even a slight chance.

To: John
From: (Me)

Ready to be amazed?

*****

"If you run the numbers at $300.00 & $500.00 you will find that they are very very close to the same."

No, they aren't. Let's skip right to $500:

DIY payoff in 14.5 years
MMA payoff in 15.3 years

Difference of 10 months. Call that close? Closer, but the time is shorter as well.

$1699.10 every month for 186 months, compounded at 4% APR = $436,845

MMA saved up $408,915

Difference of $27,930

That's a *bigger* difference in savings than the $100 discretionary income example.

*****

"Keep in mind I ran this with a 23% C.C."

So modify it for a 10% C.C.

*****

"Also keep in mind, this was just one debt, not multiple debts which is reality. The MMA is much better when used in mutiple debt situations, "real life". That is why the new version is so *****full."

Are you going to use the "Factorial Math" line on me? I debunked that one long ago:

http://forumidiot.wordpress.com/2008...n/#comment-269

It doesn't matter how many debts you have. The way to approach debts is to pay the highest interest debts first. If you can, consolidate high interest debt into a lower interest loan, then reorder the accounts and, again, pay the high interest debts first. That's it.

*****

"Yes a person "Can" do it and I never said they couldn't. With multiple debts and if anything changes it is very difficult. Thats why people don't do it. Thats what it amounts to what will help people get out of debt faster. Ultimately it is education, and realization. that is hard to instill into someone."

Education? The MMA educates? Like it educated you, a UFF agent, to make errors and omissions in his comparison? UFirst is a deceptive organization. They deceive people into believing the MMA will save them money. It costs them money. It is *easy* to beat the MMA. DIY is much easier than logging into, entering numbers, and following the directions of the MMA software. DIY is simply [checking account balance] - [minimum acceptable balance] = [mortgage prepayment]. That's it. Once per month.

*****

"Let me ask you are you against UFirst as far as a product, or are you against the way it is marketed. Or better put, would you recomend it if it was free. Because then of your scenerios would have even a slight chance."

You are ridiculously good at shooting yourself in the foot. We can run that comparison without your input. We'll just assume the $3500 savings account was never there. Because you said it would be closer, let's use $500 in discretionary income:

Note that I'm back up to a $200,000 mortgage and back to $500 in discretionary income.

DIY payoff in 14.92 years
MMA payoff in 15.3 years

Difference of 4 months.

$1699.10 every month for 181 months, compounded at 4% APR = $421,255

MMA saved up $408,915

Difference of $12,340

Your precious MMA just lost again, even if it were free.

Let me point out something else that should be obvious to you. With the $3500 fee, the DIY won by $27,930. With a "free" MMA, DIY won by $12,340. Difference of $15,590. That's about equal to $3500 compounded at 5% (average of 4% and 6%) over 30 years.

The MMA will lose by it's cost plus interest over the life of the mortgage (or comparison). In this case, you can add the inefficiencies of using a credit card in conjuction with the MMA.

*****

The MMA has lost three challenges in a row. By the numbers, you should be re******* your clients their $3500 and paying them about $2500 as compensation for them using the MMA, and that doesn't even compensate them for the extra time it takes to use the MMA.

Now, you told me early on that I had made you "take a serious look at this". If that were true, and you are just an innocent client who bacame an agent, you should be having a change of heart by now. I doubt it, because you've already started shifting from claiming the MMA is faster, to the typical "education" and "human nature" backup positions of UFirst agents when they are cornered by simple, cold math.

To: (Me)
From: John

Ran at 10% and it came out at 15 year payoff an $418,132.35 in savings. Ok so you can do as well with one debt but the fastest on multiple is not the highest interest. Several financial advisors will disagree with that. Some say pay off the lowest balance first. Some say a combination. Others say Refi. Ther are many different views. The Factorial math argument is to get your attention, obviously you have never been in sales, but it does work. I will admit that you have opened my eyes a little but the question remains why are people in the shape they are in in this nation. It is mainly a attitude and a education problem. This I have always said.
You never answered my question, would you use UFirst if it was free? Do you have something against the program or the way it is marketed. We may be discussing the wrong thing here.
As I said you have enlightened me a little but I am still a big believer in UFirst. Maybe I know people better than you, I have been in the real world for along time. May I ask, what you do for a living? You are educated, thats obvious. But there is more than that. By the way I have talked to several customers who are happy as larks about the MMA system. What it all boils down to is not if you can but if you WILL. Can you drive the speed limit without a speedometer, yes, but will you?

Got to go, got a presentation to give.

To: John
From: (Me)

So, if you run it with a CC at 10%, you still lose if the MMA were free. You lose by 6 months with a $3500 MMA.

That's my answer to "would I use UFirst if it was free?" I would not. I would not because it is slower, it still costs me more money, it's more difficult, and it exposes me to greater risk if I get caught with a balance in a variable rate HELOC or a 10% credit card and, say, no job.

The MMA is just a bad idea all round.

What do I do for a living? I'm an engineer.

The fastest way to pay off multiple debts *is* to pay the highest interest debts first - not the smallest balances.

Think of it this way: One $1000 debt at 5% and one $5000 debt at 10%. "Smaller debt first" thinking would pay the $1000@5% first.

Now, consider one $1000 debt at 5% and FIVE $1000 debts at 10%. It's the *same thing* as the above example, but even "smaller debt first" thinking would agree to pay the first $1000@10% debt first, followed by the second, etc.

Always pay the higher interest debt first. It is that simple. UFirst is blowing yet another smoke screen with this "too complicated to do by yourself" talk.

At this point, with about to give a presentation, I have to ask: How are you qualified to give presentations or sell ANY mortgage-related products? We're up to four assertions you've made about the MMA, and you've been wrong on every single one. Do your next potential client a favour and tell them the MMA is a bad deal and to simply set up automatic prepayments with their bank and just monitor it so that they don't deplete their bank account or start to run a surplus.

That's even easier again.

Now, look up to the first email. That spreadsheet went out to three other people. John is about to give a presentation. One of the email addresses is for another UFF agent, but I can't tell by the other two. I get the impression John hasn't corrected his flawed spreadsheet, so I send the following to the people on the original distribution list:

To: John, CH, TH, Jim
From: (Me)

UFirst agent John Dillard shared some results of his mortgage calculations with us all at the outset. This became a conversation between John and I. Unfortunately, John had his numbers wrong, and I corrected them. As John saw fit to include all of us in his original (if flawed) findings, I felt I should include you all in our conversation to correct them. To read our emails, start from the bottom of this email and work your way up.

The short version is that a simple DIY approach to mortgage acceleration is faster than the MMA, even if the MMA were free. At $3500, it clearly is not free. In fact, the MMA will lose pace with a simple DIY approach by $3500 plus interest, plus the MMA inefficiencies.

It is also very easy to determine how to pay off a series of debts. Service the higher interest debts first, regardless of amounts.

John does not take issue with my math, but as at least one of you is a fellow UFF agent, here is your chance to prove me wrong, or try to justify why you sell such a predatory, inefficient mortgage acceleration product for such an outrageous price.

Jim from the distribution list responds first. He's a UFF agent, and sends me the typical links to Broker Banker, Ernst&Young, and all the people UFF use to manufacture a positive reputation. Almost no content of his own, and no math.

I send back Kiplinger's, MSNBC's Ric Edelman, and the email that E&Y did not investigate their award winners.

John gets back to me:

To: (Me)
From: John

I do believe you are way out of line addressing any of my upline, however they are big boys and can handle it. What I do not appreciate is you talking for me. I do not agree with your last scenerio, I do not agree that paying the highest interest is always the better, and I do not agree with you on much of anything. It must be great to believe that you are always right and that thousands of financial planners, and investors are wrong.
You still have not addressed the main issue. If it is so easy why is America in the trouble it is in. I still say education and habits are the main problem. This I have said from well before I met you and will believe well after I have forgotten you. By the way are you debt free? I am. I can live if I need to on under $1,000.00 per month, this includes my sons tuition, and school expense.
I thought this was a nice discussion between the two of us, but since you have turned this not only into a public forum, but also an attack on me, I will now leave you.
My only regret is that fact that I was not able to reach you, no I don't mean on the issue of UFirst, but on the issue of God. I am sorry that you are lost, but at this point I feel that any further conversations would only meet with with a closed mind. I will pray that I have maybe at least planted a seed that some day may be nurtured in you and grow. I will continue to pray for you.

So everyone on the list was an upline.

To: John, CH, TH, Jim
From: (Me)

You don't agree with my last scenario? If presented with one $1000 debt at 5% and five $1000 debts at 10%, you would consider paying the 5% debt first?

Again, why are you advising anyone on financial matters? You're completely clueless.

America is in a credit crunch because money became cheap and too easy to get. People borrowed, and now that home values are falling and jobs are disappearing, they can't pay.

Am I debt free? Yes I am. My wife and I paid our mortgage in record time. Want to know how? We amortized over 20 years, so we could handle the payment if one of us lost our job. Then we doubled our payment every month. Simple. Way easier than UFirst, and as I demonstrated, faster too.

I wonder how God views scamming people out of their hard-earned money for a product that could be beat if they just had the information, instead of a sales pitch? Even their bank could show them how to accelerate their mortgage for free. Instead of giving good advice, you choose to scam these people.

My main attack was on your numbers. They were wrong. You admit they were wrong. Did you tell your uplines that a simple DIY approach beats even a free MMA? There's a good chance they know, but just weren't willing to tell anyone, including you. The devious agents avoid numbers and comparisons. I'm sure Jim knows how inefficient the MMA is, because he stuck to the UFF-sponsored rags and left the math alone. You, John, aren't a devious agent. You're just a clueless pawn. You don't know how the math works, you have blind faith in your uplines and the company, and you're just talented enough to enter numbers into software, present the report to the client, and get them to sign on the dotted line. You'll get your $450 or $900 for the first few sales, and your uplines will share in the balance of the $2500 or so of the commission.

Uplines, I bet you'll be explaining the email term "CC" to John here, if you haven't already.

Upline Jim gets back to me:

To: (Me)
From: Jim

I'm Sorry for you, You must be the SMARTEST person on the PLANET. I imagine you are the kind of person who follows
the crap of Dave Ramsey.

I can say in my own defense that the Money Merge System has been a blessing for tens of thousands of people who
have little self discipline when it comes to making extra payments to their mortgage principal, The education and understanding
of what in going on inside an amortization is invaluable, in addition this is a system our customers can use over and over
for the rest of their life. Convincing you this is a valuable tool would be like trying to convince a moron you are trying to help them.

*****, I personally resent your calling me a scammer, You don't know me and you do not know my heart. .

Do not respond and remove me off any future correspondence you might have in the future.

Jim
Branch Manager

To: Jim
From: (Me)

I'll stop replying when you stop making gross errors or lying (I can't tell which).

"The education and understanding of what in going on inside an amortization is invaluable".

Show me how the MMA "educates" anyone. Your own *agent* can't calculate an accelerated mortgage payoff. The marketing of the MMA purposefully obscures what is really happening - that the extra transfers from the HELOC or other debt vehicle to the mortgage principal are responsible for almost all of the savings, and the HELOC or credit card are responsible for almost no savings at best, or cost the user money. In John's examples, the MMA cost the user almost $28,000 over 15 years. The MMA costs the user almost $1900 PER YEAR, or $155 per month, compared to what they could do themselves, easier, for free.

Did you even know you were costing some of your clients $155 per month? Do they know?

The MMA isn't educating anyone in anything except the marketing spin of UFF.

When you deal with a UFirst agent, you deal with people who can't do math, don't understand mortgages, and have false beliefs in their product.

They do, however, believe strongly in God. How that makes them qualified to sell a mortgage product, I don't know.

[BartBandy]

Well, Jim got back to me, with this lovely email:

To: Me (***** Hansen)
From: Jim

> REMOVE ME HOW.. DON'T SEND ANY MORE OF YOUR BS......

DON'T WASTE MY TIME....... GET IT... GOT IT... GOOD....


DAM I NEED SOMEONE... I CAN PULL YOUR CRAP ON.......... ~***** HANSEN

Keep in mind, Jim is a Branch Manager for United First Financial. Professional, eh?

He doesn't seem to want to talk to me any more, but 17 minutes later, he sends me this:

To: Me (***** Hansen)
From: Jim

How often do you think about ways you can make life a little better for some one you LOVE?

I found a great way to SHOW you somthing,

http://www.unitedfirstfinancialvideo...g6k6o0qaeqs2ii

How does someone send the first email, then follow it up with this, trying again to convince me about the MMA?

[BartBandy]

My last emails with the upline:

From: Jim
To: (Me)

Please do not answer this email... and remove me from any email you might send you feel the need to explain yourself.
this is the last time you will ever hear from me.

***** ,You can do it yourself. Do whatever you like, send in extra to your mortgage or don't it's up to you.

No one told you that UFIRST was the only way to get out of debt, It's one way to truly help people.
The sad truth is that most people need something to keep them on track and for
that reason the money merge system can do just that, it's about helping people
who have not been doing so themselves.

The history of the Money Merge Account begins nearly a decade ago,
A mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics to begin creating the mathematical
algorithms (math engines) and system programming that would become the very
heart of the Money Merge Account

For starters get a 15 year mortgage, that will cut 180 months off the loan you
then apply all the extra money you have to the loan every month you will be closer
to having your home paid for. I want to wish you good luck and all the best with
doing it yourself I know you can it's just math, If it not to much to ask

Please take this free information above and get your self out of debt. and get on with your life.

I have no questions for you. And their is nothing you can say that will change my mind or the
minds of my agents we know the MMA works. The company has well over 50,000 customers
in the USA & CANADA and in the years to come will have millions and millions.

*****, Why don't you help all you can do it them selfs, And my team and I will help all we can use the MMA.

Most of us are making our living marketing this program and making a nice income!

So with that... All the best to you... And we will Keep Delivering Financial Freedom to American Homeowners.


Jim Moore
Branch Manager UFirst Financial
PS: This program has become so successful that our team is busy rolling out educational seminars across the country and helping thousands of American homeowners get on the fast track to financial freedom without a mortgage. The demand for the Money Merge Account is exploding, and the company continues to bring on board the smartest, most talented financial agents in the country to help homeowners reach their dreams of home ownership.

CC: ***** Hamilton, Thomas Hamilton, John Dillard

From: (Me)
To: John, CH, TH, John

Jim,

You just can't open your email account without lying or propagating lies, can you?

" A mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics to begin creating the mathematical
algorithms (math engines) and system programming that would become the very
heart of the Money Merge Account "

No, Jim. There is no such thing as a "mathematical engineer". This is just another UFF lie. The truth is, these mortgage accelerators got their start in Australia, where they were all shut down by court order:

http://www.butterhomes.com/blog/inde...rtgage-brokers

Depending on the UFF agent you talk to, these "mathematical engineers" came from GE, NASA, MIT, Caltech, or it was simply Richard Branson himself. Seriously. UFF agents are a hoot.

And I love it how every time I prove agents wrong, you guys retreat behind a new line. John recently wrote to me:

"The MMA is much better when used in mutiple debt situations, "real life". That is why the new version is so *****full. Show me that in a DIY scenerio."

So I did, and now John's upline agrees that it can be done. So I guess the new version ain't that *****ful, is it? I mean, all it takes is a simple "pay high interest first" approach, and that GE Aeronautics algorithm is shot to hell. I guess McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario is a better school than MIT or Caltech.

What did they pay for the algorithm? What lie were you told about that, to justify the cost? $10 million? $50 million?

Jim, you don't need to coach me out of debt - I have no mortgage on my house, and 6 months left on a vehicle finance at 0.9%.

As for your p.s., you think UFirst is attracting the "smartest, most talented financial agents in the country..."? Like John, the agent who can't calculate a mortgage? Like my friend Mark Goldsmith, with a NegAm mortgage himself? You're not financial professionals - you're salesmen over your heads. Anyone can become a UFF agent with $175, a few webinars, and a quiz. There is almost no barrier to becoming a UFF agent. It's easier to become a UFF agent than a security guard.

UFF will be gone in a couple of years, just like all the other mortgage acceleration scams. You guys keep trying to sell it - people like me who don't like to see our friends scammed will be there to educate the public until larger media outlets pick up the story and the UFF founders run to their next scam.

Regards,
*****

[JimmyDaGeek]

You know, there is only one truthful statement in all this. Your MMA salesmen agrees that MMA users are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to use the product. Contrary to what you and I think and know, there will always be customers for MMA. It's unfortunate that people keep looking for magic bullets and secret formulas to help them accomplish a task. They need someone else to vet what they do.

[Truman]

Originally Posted by JimmyDaGeek

You know, there is only one truthful statement in all this. Your MMA salesmen agrees that MMA users are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to use the product. Contrary to what you and I think and know, there will always be customers for MMA. It's unfortunate that people keep looking for magic bullets and secret formulas to help them accomplish a task. They need someone else to vet what they do.

That's a good thing for Financial Planners, huh?

[BartBandy]

Looked into this UFF agent group a little more - especially the assumed head of the group - Jim Moore. I know he's a UFF agent from Indianapolis, but look what a Google search turns up:

I Personally endorse this Program ~ Jim Moore

Founder ~ Bikers For Jesus

Seriously - Bikers for Jesus.

By exposing their ignorance and lies, I haven't just offended a random group of UFirst agents - I've offended UFF agent, bikers, and Jesus. Holy shit - I've hit the trifecta. I mean, I'm used to offending each of those groups separately, but it's rare to have one conversation offend all three groups at once.

On the downside, I've offended UFF agent, bikers, and Jesus. If I had faith in any of them, I'd be pretty much screwed. Thankfully, UFF agents are too dim to find ***** Hansen in Toronto, bikers can't cross the border without a helmet (and Bikers for Jesus have too much faith to wear helmets), and Jesus, on account of being born 2000 years ago, is almost certainly dead.

Whew. Close one.

[Venturion]

*****, I so thoroughly enjoyed this thread that I want to personally thank you for the time, ******, and intelligence spent on posting it as well as on the discussion with UFF. Please link to this thread on FW and elsewhere. It's too entertaining to be missed.

[JCastell]

What an idiot!

I have great numbers, results, and paying my home off earlier than most Americans in the same situation as I am and not changing my lifestyle.

So let me ask all of you "anti-UFF" people...

WHAT IS SO TERRIBLE ABOUT THAT??? DO YOU SPEND THIS MUCH TIME WHINING ABOUT YOUR LAST CAR SALESMAN TOO??? HE PUT YOU INTO DEBT...BITCH AT HIM SOME!! IF THAT ISN'T ENOUGH, CALL YOUR BANKER TOO, HE SET YOU UP ON THE 30-YEAR TERM THAT IS FRONT LOADED WITH ALL THAT INTEREST!! HELL, IF YOU WHINE THIS MUCH ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HELPS PEOPLE GET OUT OF DEBT...WHAT DO YOU DO, BLOW UP THE HOUSES OF YOUR BANKERS, CAR SALESMAN, & REALTORS???

(A lot of ****** goes into something good...I'd hate to see what you do to something that is causing a detriment)

None of you can manage your finances, track past history, run different scenerios arbitrarily (then remove them) to see how it effects your position, etc, etc, etc, like this program can do!! So why bash it???

If it's the fact that the $3,500 puts you out for the software...don't pay it and always wonder how wonderful it is to be able to spend a total of 20-30 minutes every month plugging your numbers in and seeing your home being paid off in a fraction of the time!!

It's amazing to see so many people bitch about something that is truly helping people get out of debt!!

You all pay your homes off in 30-years and bitch at everyone else for paying theirs off early and spending the $3,500 to save $96,000. Sounds like you have life all figured out.

I'm done...

NEVER AGAIN WILL I COME TO THIS SITE...MAN!!! I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW I GOT HERE ANYWAY!!

NITE-NITE!!

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by JCastell

I have great numbers, results, and paying my home off earlier than most Americans in the same situation as I am and not changing my lifestyle.

You could have better numbers without the MMA. The "no change in lifestyle" claim is not allowed by UFF. Look in your agent agreement - that thing you signed without reading it. UFF filled you with lies, then sent you out into the world to propagate those lies, but by repeating them, you're breaking your agent agreement and UFF can terminate your agent status. Don't be sad - you were only ever an "independent contractor" anyway.

Originally Posted by JCastell

So let me ask all of you "anti-UFF" people...

WHAT IS SO TERRIBLE ABOUT THAT??? DO YOU SPEND THIS MUCH TIME WHINING ABOUT YOUR LAST CAR SALESMAN TOO??? HE PUT YOU INTO DEBT...BITCH AT HIM SOME!! IF THAT ISN'T ENOUGH, CALL YOUR BANKER TOO, HE SET YOU UP ON THE 30-YEAR TERM THAT IS FRONT LOADED WITH ALL THAT INTEREST!! HELL, IF YOU WHINE THIS MUCH ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HELPS PEOPLE GET OUT OF DEBT...WHAT DO YOU DO, BLOW UP THE HOUSES OF YOUR BANKERS, CAR SALESMAN, & REALTORS???

(A lot of ****** goes into something good...I'd hate to see what you do to something that is causing a detriment)

Wow. You're unstable.

Originally Posted by JCastell

None of you can manage your finances, track past history, run different scenerios arbitrarily (then remove them) to see how it effects your position, etc, etc, etc, like this program can do!! So why bash it???

If it's the fact that the $3,500 puts you out for the software...don't pay it and always wonder how wonderful it is to be able to spend a total of 20-30 minutes every month plugging your numbers in and seeing your home being paid off in a fraction of the time!!

It's amazing to see so many people bitch about something that is truly helping people get out of debt!!

You all pay your homes off in 30-years and bitch at everyone else for paying theirs off early and spending the $3,500 to save $96,000. Sounds like you have life all figured out.

I don't need to run scenarios. I know that if I buy a new car, I've set my mortgage back (if I still had one). The exact amount? Any free online mortgage calculator could tell me.

The $3500 is only part of the objection. This part: Why pay $3500 to do stupid things with your finances, like carry a balance in a useless HELOC, or worse, a credit card?

Originally Posted by JCastell

I'm done...

NEVER AGAIN WILL I COME TO THIS SITE...MAN!!! I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW I GOT HERE ANYWAY!!

NITE-NITE!!

You don't know how you got here....you don't know how the MMA works...you don't know how [checking account balance] - [minimum acceptable balance] = [mortgage prepayment] beats the MMA every time...

You really should learn some of this stuff if you are going to debate the topic.

[BartBandy]

Venturion, you're welcome. I thought it was pretty entertaining, and I'm glad I'm not the only one. JCastell here seems to be very moved by it as well. Maybe I'll throw up some more links. Feel free to link to it yourself if it makes sense.

[JimmyDaGeek]

I'm really sorry Salesman Steve left. He never showed us numbers how the Money Merge Account doesn't suck compared to doing it yourself. I gave him all the chances. He never told us how much interest he was paying. Maybe I'll call him - he gave us his phone number.

All he could do was jump up and down about how much interest he was saving and how soon he would be debt free. He got angry at the mere suggestion that any other method could do better. All those bells and whistles. Completely unnecessary if you have your mortgage statement and loan amortization table. But he didn't want to hear that. Oh, yes, he claimed to have the math background and that he did lots of research about a year ago. I did the same and I certainly didn't end up where he is.

He simply proved that the typical Money Merge Account user is financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy - no matter what they say. Is that harsh? Only if an agent or user chooses to defend MMA without any objective facts. If they use MMA because they like the bells and whistles, that's their choice. But please don't tell us how much better it is.

[calvinandhobbes]

Originally Posted by JimmyDaGeek

He simply proved that the typical Money Merge Account user is financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy - no matter what they say. Is that harsh? Only if an agent or user chooses to defend MMA without any objective facts.

well, since we all know there are no objective facts that defend the MMA, we know why the agents cut and run whenever asked.

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by JimmyDaGeek

I'm really sorry Salesman Steve left. He never showed us numbers how the Money Merge Account doesn't suck compared to doing it yourself. I gave him all the chances. He never told us how much interest he was paying. Maybe I'll call him - he gave us his phone number.

That just gave me an idea. I googled Steve's number.

Steve sells used cars in Oklahoma City.

http://www.autotrader.com/dealers/dd...85&car_id=null

Cobalt * Certified! * Has Warranty! * Internet Special **$200 OFF IF YOU ASK FOR STEVE** (JUST PRINT THIS AD & BRING IT IN TO STEVE) CALL STEVE CASTELL FOR MORE DETAILS AT 405-684-INFO(4636). * Vehicle includes: Dual Air Bags, Air Conditioning, Rear Window Defroster, Tachometer, Steering Wheel Controls, Remote Keyless Entry, Heated Seat(s), Leather Seating, ***** Door Locks, ***** Windows, ***** Steering, and Cruise Control. More info

Makes sense - he referred to car salesmen in his posts

Originally Posted by JCastell

DO YOU SPEND THIS MUCH TIME WHINING ABOUT YOUR LAST CAR SALESMAN TOO??? HE PUT YOU INTO DEBT...BITCH AT HIM SOME!!

Originally Posted by JCastell

The think you have to remember, there are MANY other things that hurt people. Hell, I have salesman that hurt people by putting them in debt with cars. This is HELPING PEOPLE!!

Of course, used car salesmen are not exactly the most trusted people on earth. Now this one is selling the Money Merge Account. God help us all, indeed.

[Truman]

Originally Posted by JimmyDaGeek

He simply proved that the typical Money Merge Account user is financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy -

Hmmm??? Maybe one should develope an MMA prospect list based on that . . .???

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by Truman

Hmmm??? Maybe one should develope an MMA prospect list based on that . . .???

Good idea. Now, where to start?

5 out of 6 scammers agree - start in Utah.

[BartBandy]

While I'm here...the following is another "Conversation with a UFF agent". This one, on YouTube:

Originally Posted by MissFunkentelect

Also, you can cut down the years drastically by making and extra mortgage payment or two a year.

Originally Posted by aljernon805

where did the extra mortgage payment come from?

Originally Posted by cphansen

Your bank account. If you think the HELOC or the MMA is magically coming up with thousands of dollars, you're mistaken. UFF agents will give you a great story about timing, but in truth, the MMA can only save a few bucks a month under optimal conditions of a low HELOC rate. Substitute a credit card, and even those meagre savings disappear. The MMA works by applying you extra "discretionary" income to the mortgage - that's it. You can do that yourself without the work or risk of the MMA.

Originally Posted by aljernon805

if the money comes from your bank account doesnt that mean that you are in fact changing your normal spending behavior? didn't you state that the mma uses the heloc to reduce the mortgage? i dont believe in magic. i do believe using the heloc (or the banks) money to pay my mortgage off is better than using my savings. at least, it sounds fair to me.

Originally Posted by cphansen

You aren't paying your mortgage with the bank's money - you're paying it with borrowed money. Money you are paying interest on every day. In the best case situation, you can get a HELOC at a lower rate than your mortgage, but you'll still struggle to recoup the $3500 cost of the MMA, compared to simply prepaying your mortgage.

That's why if you don't make more than you spend, the MMA will not work for you. UFF says so right in their FAQ.

Originally Posted by aljernon805

you are correct the faq does say that. i just looked it up. but you are wrong about the interest since that is based on the daily average outstanding balance which is reduced each time you deposit your income. as for the interest you do pay, i think its worth it to reduce the amount of mortgage interest you would normally pay if you didn't. if the mma will not work for you, or in this case me. you are advised of that upfront.

Originally Posted by cphansen

Have you even done the math on the savings? You're saving perhaps $20 each month with the MMA money movements IF your HELOC or CC rate is near your mortgage rate. It is higher for most, and much higher for some, turning the savings into a loss right there. Now consider that the monthly interest cost from the $3500 fee at 6% APR equals $17.50.

In this favourable case, the MMA is saving you $2.50 per month. It'll take 116 years to pay for itself. In common cases, it costs about $10,000 more.

Originally Posted by aljernon805

actually i have done the math. you have completely missed the boat on that one. actually, the number you use are what the numbers from the mortgage company look like. i have to ask if you have ever seen a presentation of the mma software? of course i could do it the way you mention, its my option. the mma software is only useful if you use it! to get the results you listed, i would have to purchase the software and then ignore it for the rest of my life. it remains my option.

Originally Posted by cphansen

Excellent - you claim to have done the math.

Show me. Explain how the savings are achieved. With numbers. Use any sample scenario you want, so long as the rates are realistic.

Originally Posted by cphansen

aljernon805,

I just got back from a weekend trip, and it seems you logged on 5 minutes ago yourself. I'll be messaging you to please respond to this comment and explain the basic math behind your claim of extra savings by using the MMA.

I don't think you understand the math at all. If you don't respond, I'll explain it myself (and back it up), but I'll give you first crack at it and the opportunity to dig yourself a deeper hole.

Originally Posted by aljernon805

cphansen, sorry for the delay. very busy. as to the math i have seen it. i will not try to claim to know all the formulas that go into the program. i believe it will take personal experience to see the benefits of it. the only "scenario" i care to speak towards is my own. most months i am in the red but this program found money i could use. not magic just very thorough. once you get past the learning curve its easy. all my accounts in one location! this is my last post on this subject.

Originally Posted by cphansen

You said, "actually i have done the math" just 6 days ago. Now, you have "seen" the math. You lied like most UFF agents do.

I'm glad it found your money. Was it between the sofa cushions? The best the MMA can possibly do is direct money from the HELOC to pay of credit cards so you don't have monthly minimums, freeing up some cash. That $3500 fee would have been better applied to the cards, and anyone can tell you to convert high interest debt into a lower interest LOC.

Just another lying, clueless United First Financial agent.

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servl...%3DmakfTp3bBDo
UFirst must hate this video, because the agent who posted it has gone AWOL, and doesn't delete comments like the other agents do. It's also the most-viewed UFF-related video on YouTube.

[Venturion]

Remind me, isn't this the video that UFirst specifically restricts agents from using and that was shown after-the-fact that the reporter was receiving kickbacks? It would be helpful to get a statement from the news station since the reporting was so horribly biased and plainly false.

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by Venturion

Remind me, isn't this the video that UFirst specifically restricts agents from using and that was shown after-the-fact that the reporter was receiving kickbacks? It would be helpful to get a statement from the news station since the reporting was so horribly biased and plainly false.

Yes, UFirst specifically restricts the use of this video, but like their other "restrictions", they don't enforce them. I believe UFirst are happy for agents to use them, and happy to let the agents assume responsibility for the fraudulent claims.

I'm not aware of any kickbacks to the reporter.

[BartBandy]

Another excellent quote from a UFirst agent, from the comments on a YouTube video. You can file this one under "truth in advertising":

Originally Posted by FinancialLeader

Excellent video! And an excellent company indeed! The cost for the program does not have to come out of your savings. When you look into this service further, you will see see how you can do this without any out of pocket expense. And, more importantly, the cost is an investment and like all GOOD investments, the thousands of dollars in return is what makes this product awesome! I urge you all to get an Agent...today! The only thing you have to lose is your money!

UFirst agents have to be the dumbest group of salespeople I've ever come across in my life.

[Late2Game]

Just for fun, I have been looking at uplines/downlines of agents (taken from publicly accessible web sites).

I found:

 
John Dillard     #904194 is downline to...
Thomas Hamilton  #866047...
Richard Hamilton #854001...
James Moore      #853358...
Kelly Thayer     #844641...
New You LLC      #831100...
Loran O`Dell     #825966

From what I've read on the 'net, Loran pulls in big bucks, as do the few at the top in any MLM. Just interesting stuff.

-L2G

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by Late2Game

Just for fun, I have been looking at uplines/downlines of agents (taken from publicly accessible web sites).

I found:

 
John Dillard     #904194 is downline to...
Thomas Hamilton  #866047...
Richard Hamilton #854001...
James Moore      #853358...
Kelly Thayer     #844641...
New You LLC      #831100...
Loran O`Dell     #825966

From what I've read on the 'net, Loran pulls in big bucks, as do the few at the top in any MLM. Just interesting stuff.

-L2G

L2G, please PM me your method of getting this information. This is really interesting.

Edit: Better yet, email me. I'll PM my email address.

[Late2Game]

PM sent. I'll email when I'm away from work's firewall proxies.

[BartBandy]

Another conversation, this time on YouTube, with Jarrett Holmes - UFirst trainer and super-agent:

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servl...%3DwuHzh15Ko5A

Turns out, it's not just the new agents. Even the long term agents and corporate trainers are clueless and can't defend selling the MMA.

[BartBandy]

A new conversation with a UFirst super-agent. This time it's Jaime Buckley of "The Jubilee Project". Jaime restricts his online conversations to UFirst's own "blogs". In this case, I've managed to get him agitated at me on the UFirst Blog "The Whole Truth":

http://ufirstforum.com/thewholetruth/?p=10

Comments (well, my comments) can take a long time to be "approved" and show up, so here are my replies to Jaime and the blog moderator "Watch Dog", in case they take a while to show up:

Originally Posted by ***** Hansen

OK, that was a lot to digest. I’ll address the above two comments in order.

Jaime, if part of your service is to review the spending habits of your clients and point out fat that can be cut out, then that is indeed a good service. It’s a service many credit counselors are trained to provide. Can you point me to UFirst training materials on debt counseling? I can find the Compensation Plan and plenty of *****points on how to sell the MMA and how to answer “How does the MMA work?” (A: “It works great!”), but I’ve yet to see anything on credit counseling. Further, the UFirst FAQ states quite clearly that “United First Financial does not provide investment, mortgage, real estate or financial advice.”

Further, I take offense to your straw-man argument where you write words in quotes that appear to come from me, but do not. I never wrote, “Well Jaime, I’m going to scream and shout and point fingers at you and all other Money Merge Account agents and say they’re stupid people…..” I never called your clients “stupid”, nor have I called you any names or written anything that approaches shouting. My criticisms are with the product, the price and the marketing - not with you personally.

Also, you write: “The funny thing is *****…most people just “don’t” pay it. So, what does that mean?”

I’ve seen other agents say this as well, that “most” people don’t “pay it”. Pay what? Extra to their mortgage? The mortgage itself? How do you know? What are you referring to? A comment that strong requires some backup, and no, the words “mortgage crisis” aren’t backup. You’ll need numbers to back this up.

You seem to want an answer from me with this line:
“But you keep saying: “Just put more money here and it will go away.”
Well, DUH.
…but how are you going to get them to DO that *****? Just answer me HOW!”

Well, I wouldn’t start with asking the client to go $3500 deeper in debt, and I wouldn’t have to spend enough time to justify that kind of fee. A budget is a great tool, even on paper. If my “client” were computer-savvy, perhaps a <$100 copy of a popular money management program would get them on their way. When it comes to accelerating the mortgage and predicting a future payoff date, there are a number of spreadsheet templates people can use with free OpenOffice or Google Apps. An excellent free template is the “Debt Reduction Snowball Calculator” template from Vertex42 dot com. Check it out. You can order debts by “highest interest rates first” (fastest method) or “lowest balances first” (can provide positive reinforcement). Personally, I prefer the fastest method, but could see how seeing that first debt drop away quickly could be encouraging. Usually, the second method is not much slower. Hope that answers your question.

As for your comments that I’m “evil” for kicking away “helping hands”, those hands were outstretched, waiting for $3500 from people who can ill-afford the money. In exchange, they’d get a software program that features an algorithm that makes use of a new debt product (LOC or CC), but the algorithm can’t actually improve upon centuries-old approaches. I said I can demonstrate that, and you aren’t challenging me on it. So, why the new debt? Why not have the MMA software simply make the same recommendations to make transfers to the mortgage (now from the bank account), and avoid the HELOC/CC and the higher interest rates they bring and the risk of them being frozen? The end results would be pretty much the same. My opinion is that the LOC makes the system appear more impressive, and gives the illusion it is worth the $3500. Just like “Factorial Math” sounds impressive, but means little. Yes, there are 3.6 million different ways to order the payoff of 10 debts, but that doesn’t mean most can’t do it on their own (pay higher interest debts first). There are 10 billion phone numbers possible with 10 digits, but not too many people need $3500 software packages to dial their phones.

Jaime, you say I’m not helping people. I’ve helped many, here and on other sites. “Use discretionary income to pay off debts” helps people. “Consolidate high interest debts into lower interest debt” helps people. And “Pay off the higher interest debts first” helps people. I helped people further in this post by showing them where they can find a good spreadsheet template for the debt snowball method. I’ve suggested people call their credit card companies to request a rate decrease, talk to their lenders so they can understand their mortgage and rules and benefits from extra payments, and create budgets. I’ve always presented options as well as criticism of the MMA and the marketing of it.

Am I right? The math is certainly in my favor. You keep returning to the “habit” argument and referring to the mortgage crisis, but those are the result of money being cheap and too easy to get for some who should not have qualified, and people falling behind once their payments increased or they lost their jobs, and their home values fell. I’d like to see better evidence than your words that people outside of the “sub-prime” category are as bad at paying bills as you say, and that the MMA turns these people into responsible debtors.

Originally Posted by ***** Hansen

Watch Dog,

I’m curious to know what words of mine compare with “whiner”, “rabid dog”, and “evil”. I’ve re-read my comments, and I don’t believe my tone goes anywhere above “conversation”-level. Jaime’s tone, with the above words, the excessive punctuation and the italics, bold and CAPS, goes more than an octave or two higher.

My accusation of UFirst’s ulterior motive (search engine rankings) for creating these blogs is based on a circulated UFirst document titled “UFirstBlogAnnouncement.pdf” to agents from the “UFirst Executive Team”. Below is an excerpt from that document:

I have based every one of my comments about UFirst on fact. It is Jaime’s opinion that the MMA reinforces good habits. That the MMA is slower, more expensive and more work than a simple DIY (debt snowball) method are all comments based on fact, and if anyone disagrees, I’m happy to go into further detail.

Originally Posted by ***** Hansen

Watch Dog,

You may post this or you may not (I’m not concerned), but I wanted to thank you for posting my comments and not simply deleting them or banning me. It may take a week or more for my comments to be approved, and minutes for Jaime’s, but at least my posts are there. I am trying to help people, and I appreciate the opportunity to make my points.

If I may make a request, I would also appreciate my comments being approved with a similarly short delay as Jaime’s. Either that, or make Jaime wait a week as well. ;)

Regards,
*****

[WVDropout]

I just listened to the presentation and talked with an individual from U-First - it seems to me that the a person with a good budget and self-control could take their monthly "discretionary" income and make a principal only payment on their 1st mortgage and accomplish the same thing without paying $3,500. The presentation brags about paying down your mortgage in the 1st year - but, what about the balance on the 2nd mortgage? If you add the two up, it totals the same amount minus the principal payments you made via your "discretionary income".

The only benefit I see is the software allowing an individual to constantly be reminded and to stay on task by repeatedly seeing the mortgage balances and related financial accounts.

What happens when you don't use that discretionary income" to pay down the line of credit, but instead blow it on a weekend in Vegas?

You end up with a maxed out line of credit - $3,500 poorer and your mortgage debt higher.

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by WVDropout

I just listened to the presentation and talked with an individual from U-First - it seems to me that the a person with a good budget and self-control could take their monthly "discretionary" income and make a principal only payment on their 1st mortgage and accomplish the same thing without paying $3,500. The presentation brags about paying down your mortgage in the 1st year - but, what about the balance on the 2nd mortgage? If you add the two up, it totals the same amount minus the principal payments you made via your "discretionary income".

The only benefit I see is the software allowing an individual to constantly be reminded and to stay on task by repeatedly seeing the mortgage balances and related financial accounts.

What happens when you don't use that discretionary income" to pay down the line of credit, but instead blow it on a weekend in Vegas?

You end up with a maxed out line of credit - $3,500 poorer and your mortgage debt higher.

For a "dropout", you understand this scheme just fine. In fact, totalling the 1st mortgage and the LOC is such an obvious sum, but it's a sum that is ignored by agents time and again.

[calvinandhobbes]

Originally Posted by WVDropout

I just listened to the presentation and talked with an individual from U-First - it seems to me that the a person with a good budget and self-control could take their monthly "discretionary" income and make a principal only payment on their 1st mortgage and accomplish the same thing without paying $3,500. The presentation brags about paying down your mortgage in the 1st year - but, what about the balance on the 2nd mortgage? If you add the two up, it totals the same amount minus the principal payments you made via your "discretionary income".

The only benefit I see is the software allowing an individual to constantly be reminded and to stay on task by repeatedly seeing the mortgage balances and related financial accounts.

What happens when you don't use that discretionary income" to pay down the line of credit, but instead blow it on a weekend in Vegas?

You end up with a maxed out line of credit - $3,500 poorer and your mortgage debt higher.

Congratulations. You are head of 10's of thousands of UFF agents.....and anyone that ever bought the software as well.

[BartBandy]

Well, it has now been over 1 week since I replied to the official UFirst blog, "The Whole Truth", and my comments are still in limbo, waiting for approval.

[calvinandhobbes]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

Well, it has now been over 1 week since I replied to the official UFirst blog, "The Whole Truth", and my comments are still in limbo, waiting for approval.

a word of warning, if you show their math to be wrong (ie, tell the truth), you will be banned.

[BartBandy]

To ban me, they need a reason. They banned you for being sarcastic with them while you were showing them how wrong they were. It was a bogus reason, but the Kool-Aid crowd would have bought it. I'm taking a different approach - I'm being extremely nice, while showing them how wrong they are.

Now they have a problem - no matter how much they say my words are "unsavoury", they can't identify any actual "unsavoury" words I used. Now they have two options - the first is just to delay my comments longer each time or not post them at all, and hope I lose interest, or they will have to edit-in some excuses to ban me. That's where copying my comments to this thread comes in. This forum date-stamps my comments, and after a few hours, I can't even edit them here. The comments here are exactly what I posted to the UFirst blog, so any underhandedness on their part will be easy to catch. That said, they haven't been as low as to modify my posts before - I'm just protecting myself against that possibility.

They're really not going to like that I posted contents from a UFirst agent memo that contradicts what "Watch Dog" said. They may use that as a reason to ban me, even though it would be really, really weak.

[BartBandy]

12 days and counting since I attempted to post comments in United First Financial's own blogs, and still my comments (copied above) are in limbo, waiting for approval. If a Ufirst agent posts a comment, it is approved within minutes. Approval delay for my comments, with better language and nicer tone than agent comments, is measured in weeks.

[calvinandhobbes]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

To ban me, they need a reason. They banned you for being sarcastic with them while you were showing them how wrong they were. It was a bogus reason, but the Kool-Aid crowd would have bought it.

actually, i got warned for being rude. i got banned for showing the Jubilee project where they went wrong and how their plan would have bankrupted the sample family. The irony was the guy left out the $3500 fee, which was what busted the family. They just wussed out and used that reason. The post that i submitted was no sarcasm, just pure numbers.

[Krizia]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

UFirst agents have to be the dumbest group of salespeople I've ever come across in my life.

That's not nice! What if someone said that the ones here against MMA are bitter financial advisors pissed the word is getting out.

Sorry that two loan officers/principal lending managers are effecting your minimum $70,000 yearly average income by thinking of American homeowners.

UFirst is real.

What an UFirst Agent does is introduce a program that saves tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings to ones whom want to pay their debt. They also analyze the possible amount and time a client could save using the program. You don't have to be a financial adviser to offer something that may benefit someone. Once the software is obtained by clients, no ongoing agent services needed. If they do need to contact an agent...it's free and agents do not get paid for help given. Being an UFirst agent is like being an Avon representative. Is Avon a scam?

Excel requires more soul processing than the MMA. If you're not good at math or too busy, then it may be better to go with MMA. The program tells you when and how much you should apply additionally to your mortgage payments, instead of you telling the software like regular spreadsheet programs. It's more than just applying extention to monthly payments, MMA is programmed to create the highest savings possible in the least amount of time. That's called optimization.

$3500 is paid once to use on all debt that needs to be paid, instead of paying for financial advise each time you need it. If your anaylsis stated you could save $35,000 in interest using MMA, that's a 1,000% return on your initial investment. So, what's $3500 that you are not paying out-of-pocket if you're saving $35,000? Your money works better for you instead of working for the bank and advisors. You get to see when your money goes in or out and where it goes. By using the software you get to learn your spending habits, which is good for any household to accomplish. It helps build better stability and security.

Rates are not a big issue either. MMA accomplishes a way that you do not pay interest on most of the money you use for monthly expenses and additional mortgage payments. The Line of Credit gives you the ability to pay all your monthly bills on time (avoiding late fee charges that may apply) without having to split and strecth your paychecks weekly to make ends meet.
Once bills are paid using line of credit, you deposit your paycheck back into the credit. Because the bank is expecting the minimum amount, you are offsetting the interest rate you would pay using the line of credit in a traditional manner.

To sum it all up...MMA helps YOU consolidate YOUR debt YOURSELF without needing the financial skills.

I thought the same when I was first introduced to MMA. I decided to do a full on investigation and make my own thought and feeling for UFirst. That's what you bitter advisors should do. Stop being a hater...hate the game not the player.

Scams are cheats and fraud. Neither of those apply to UFirst. This thread is the true scam. Defrauding is the point here, right?

[calvinandhobbes]

Krizia, you are full of it, though you may not know it, because Bart's comment is spot on.

As has been said a zillion times, in this thread evem, Excel is not needed. If you can balance your checkbook, you have everything you need. $80 Excel, $40 MS Money and $3500 UFF software will track your progress, but Excel, Money, or simple addition and subtraction will calculate optimal payments (note: to date UFF software has never been demonstrated to calculate optimal payments, even for the slower MMA approach).

You're just another clueless UFF agent that thinks they are saving the world when they are just adding more debt to a debt ridden country. Software costs you money. YOUR OWN MONEY SAVES YOU INTEREST.

Kindly get a clue. And read your UFF notices, they want you to stop posting to non-UFF controlled internet sites as they can't censor the truth on these sites, and they skew the google search results to these sites where the truth is posted. They want clients to go to their sites, where they can show off their E&Y award, even though E&Y didn't give it to them, they just sponsored the contest.

I have no problem with you posting here and showing your financial unawareness, it only helps our cause. But your company has a huge problem with it. Obviously sales are hurting.

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by Krizia

That's not nice! What if someone said that the ones here against MMA are bitter financial advisors pissed the word is getting out.

I'm not here to be nice to people who lie to sell a bad, overpriced product. I'm also not a financial advisor - bitter or otherwise. I'm an engineer. I have no vested interest in the success or failure of UFirst.

Originally Posted by Krizia

Excel requires more soul processing than the MMA. If you're not good at math or too busy, then it may be better to go with MMA. The program tells you when and how much you should apply additionally to your mortgage payments, instead of you telling the software like regular spreadsheet programs. It's more than just applying extention to monthly payments, MMA is programmed to create the highest savings possible in the least amount of time. That's called optimization.

Ah, thank you for writing that. Please provide an example, with numbers. You can use any UFirst-supplied example of money movements of the MMA that demonstrate this "optimization". This should be good.

Originally Posted by Krizia

$3500 is paid once to use on all debt that needs to be paid, instead of paying for financial advise each time you need it. If your anaylsis stated you could save $35,000 in interest using MMA, that's a 1,000% return on your initial investment. So, what's $3500 that you are not paying out-of-pocket if you're saving $35,000? Your money works better for you instead of working for the bank and advisors. You get to see when your money goes in or out and where it goes. By using the software you get to learn your spending habits, which is good for any household to accomplish. It helps build better stability and security.

It has been proven time and again that it is easier and faster to accelerate your mortgage without the MMA. That is, whatever the MMA can save you in interest, you can easily save more without it. How? End of the month, after expenses, bank balance minus contingency equals prepayment. I like a large contingency, or a couple grand in a savings account, because you should never allow yourself to become cash poor. Under the MMA, you have no cash - only debt.

Originally Posted by Krizia

Rates are not a big issue either. MMA accomplishes a way that you do not pay interest on most of the money you use for monthly expenses and additional mortgage payments. The Line of Credit gives you the ability to pay all your monthly bills on time (avoiding late fee charges that may apply) without having to split and strecth your paychecks weekly to make ends meet.
Once bills are paid using line of credit, you deposit your paycheck back into the credit. Because the bank is expecting the minimum amount, you are offsetting the interest rate you would pay using the line of credit in a traditional manner.

Once again, demonstrate it - even to yourself. Look at a best case scenario where bills are paid at the end of the month and income arrives on the first of the month, and calculate the interest accrued by both the HELOC and the amount remaining in the mortgage, and don't forget to add $3500 to the HELOC for the MMA fee. Now look at the interest accrued in the mortgage over the month without the HELOC or the MMA fee.

Yep, you're probably paying more interest with the MMA, or the difference is minimal.

Originally Posted by Krizia

To sum it all up...MMA helps YOU consolidate YOUR debt YOURSELF without needing the financial skills.

I thought the same when I was first introduced to MMA. I decided to do a full on investigation and make my own thought and feeling for UFirst. That's what you bitter advisors should do. Stop being a hater...hate the game not the player.

Scams are cheats and fraud. Neither of those apply to UFirst. This thread is the true scam. Defrauding is the point here, right?

Even with the MMA, YOU'RE doing all the work. More work, in fact. You have to tell the MMA about your income and expenses. All you need is a budget, and a simple plan. The MMA may help with a budget now, but its plan is just a smokescreen on simple prepayment, and the fee is insane.

We are the ones stripping away the obfuscation here. We're the ones explaining what is really going on with the MMA. If you think we're wrong, why can't you explain it with numbers? You can't because the numbers are not in your favour.

[Late2Game]

Originally Posted by Krizia

$3500 is paid once to use on all debt that needs to be paid, instead of paying for financial advise each time you need it. If your anaylsis stated you could save $35,000 in interest using MMA, that's a 1,000% return on your initial investment. So, what's $3500 that you are not paying out-of-pocket if you're saving $35,000?

So if I don't pay $3500 for the product, but instead put it towards my mortgage and save even more than $35,000 by applying my discretionary income, that would be an infinite rate of return!

I like your math. In fact, I think I'll start a hedge fund using mortgages.

Also, interesting choice of user name. Are you Krizia Poellnitz, #916972 of Greenfield, MA? If so, are you in Keener Org?

[BartBandy]

An update on my original post to this thread...

It has been 3 months since John and I started our conversation. I was wondering how he was doing, and specifically if he was still selling the MMA, or had given up like so many other agents. After all, when every agent has 2 sales (on average), that mean a lot of agents have no sales at all. Considering agent fees, (optional) website fees, and (optional) UTracker fees and other costs associated with being an agent, the vast majority of agents can not be making enough money to justify the time spent. Forget making enough to live on - when your first two commissions are only for $450, many of them must be losing money.

So I emailed John:

Originally Posted by *****

John,

Still selling the MMA?

Regards,
*****

Originally Posted by John

Nope,

I am now managing a 200 home community and have 30 fo sale and another 40 on the way. Good bye and good riddens

Originally Posted by *****

John,

Why "good riddance"? Wasn't I right about the MMA? Isn't it nearly impossible to sell? I mean, 3 months later, and you're out. Congratulations on walking away and finding meaningful employment. I mean that.

*****

I emailed the news to his uplines, including my own version of the analysis of the number of MMA agents vs. the oft-reported number of MMAs sold. You can see Tracy Coenen's better version of this here:
http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfil...roker-numbers/

Originally Posted by John

I never said I was out of it, you assumed that. I am busy with a larger project. I still believe in the MMA and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth like you have fromt he very first. Now unless you want to either loan me $850,000.00 USD or tell me of another way to help my fellow Americans, I have nothing to say to you, except I can speak for myself, I don't need you to.

The answer to this one is obvious, isn't it?

Originally Posted by *****

John,

I asked, "Still selling the MMA?"

You replied, "Nope..."

And when I say you no longer sell the MMA, that's putting words in your mouth?

Regards,
*****

By his first answer, John has probably given up on the MMA, but pride won't let him admit he was wrong with his analysis, his decision to buy the MMA, and his decision to try to sell it.

If we could have sales figures from UFirst for all agents, what a horror show that would be. The top few agents are probably making a killing. Another handful below them are probably making a living. UFirst themselves are rolling in money ($1000 times 100,000 sales, minimum). But like every other MLM, the majority are making almost nothing, or actually losing money in this pyramid.

[Late2Game]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

If we could have sales figures from UFirst for all agents, what a horror show that would be. The top few agents are probably making a killing. Another handful below them are probably making a living. UFirst themselves are rolling in money ($1000 times 100,000 sales, minimum). But like every other MLM, the majority are making almost nothing, or actually losing money in this pyramid.

Funny you should ask. Mr. Alex Spencer (son of Sr Executive Branch Manager Lynn D. Spencer) has kindly provided a "read only" *****point with average "active" agent earnings as of 8/31/2008:

http://www.halfmymortgage.net/uffc.ppt

Also at this link:
http://ciottiinc.org/agentfiles/down...Calculator.pps

I find it interesting that 0.11% of "Active" (made a sale in the last year) agents are Sr. Exec. Branch Managers. Scouring the web, I have found 13, maybe 15 individuals who list themselves at that top teir. Depending on rounding, that puts the number of "Active" agents in the last year between 13,110 and 14,355. Hardly 59,700 that shows up on their rolls.

-L2G

[BartBandy]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

If we could have sales figures from UFirst for all agents, what a horror show that would be. The top few agents are probably making a killing. Another handful below them are probably making a living. UFirst themselves are rolling in money ($1000 times 100,000 sales, minimum). But like every other MLM, the majority are making almost nothing, or actually losing money in this pyramid.

It's like Chirstmas came early. Less than a day after I hope for sales figures, we actually get sales figures for the many tiers of UFirst agents:

http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfil...nancial-agent/

I seriously did not know this was going to be published, but I'm glad it was, and it completely backs up what I have been saying.

[BartBandy]

This is surreal. I just got this from Jim:

Hi *****,

I have seen some of the email you have sent talking about the Ufirst program, I seen the a little more then a year ago and have had a heart to
help people this looked like something that could do just that. Working heard I become a branch manager and in doing so was able to make a good
living for my family. As you and everyone knows the turn down rate from the banks is very high as to HELOC and most people can't get them. *****,
the point is the program works if people can get it my son is on track to cut over 18 years off his mortgage and that is a blessing most people have lost
hope of ever getting their home paid off. It looks like you have paid your home off awesome. Well I am not big on letters so I will cut this short. how did
you get the list of all the ufirst agents? and did you see their phone numbers and address. id so I would like to get a copy of that list as I have started
with a company who markets Local Ad's for any kind of business (affiliate link removed) *****, if you can find any thing wrong with it I would
like to know. It looks like a very simple system to help any kind of business get their name out on the internet.

In a previous email, I even linked the blog entry on Tracy Coenen's Fraud Files Blog, but I guess he missed that. What he really wants is the contact info for the agents so that he can market a new scam to them.

I even linked this thread to him, and no mention of it. He just sees that I have the master agent list and he wants phone numbers and addresses (which are not on the list, and if they were, I wouldn't publish them).

He wants this infor to market a new scam to them. A local ad selling scam.

The best part? The agents for this local ad selling scam are recruiting locally - ON *****SLIST.

Have you ever heard anything so ironic?

[BartBandy]

My reply to Jim, and his response.

It's another pyramid scam, Jim. Just like UFirst. Just like Amway, Shop-To-Earn, Monavie, Prepaid Legal, etc.

In all of these scams, only the top 1% of agents make decent money. All of them.

As for UFirst and your son, if he is 18 years ahead now, he could be 19 years ahead without UFirst. John helped me prove that. DIY is faster, easier, and a lot cheaper. If he needs software to tell him what to do, Quicken is MUCH better at that, at 3% of the cost of the MMA. He also wouldn't need that useless and dangerous HELOC.

Jim, get a grip. None of these scams will work for you. 99% of agents are victimized by these scams just as their clients are.

*****

Thanks *****,

I will just go get my shoot gun and pop a cap. you might want to do the same.

Please remove me from any further emails negative you might want to send.

Marry Christmas Hum bug right

Ask Santa for a life this year....

[BartBandy]

I just came across the instructions for new UFirst agent certification. The first 13 points show how little instruction is required, and how the exam obviously isn't timed. Further, new agents are instructed to write the exam in parts, directly after watching the video about that section in the exam, so agents are just using their short-term memory and "regurgitating" what they just saw. Those points alone are bad enough, but that's not all. This is what people should REALLY be scared about:

It is literally impossible to fail the UFirst agent exam. Absolutely impossible. The average 5-year-old can pass this, because you can keep re-taking only the the questions you got wrong.

New Agent Training for Certification
(You must be certified before you can receive payments from United First Financial)
1. Click on www.u1stfinancial.com
2. Click on “Agent Login”
3. Click on “UFirst University”
4. Click on “Enroll Here”
5. Read the “Main” Page
6. There is a menu on the left side of the page. Click on “Online Training Videos”
7. Click on MMA-100 “Orientation Training Video”. Watch the video.
8. When you have finished watching the video, start the exam for that video by clicking on the
“Exam Center” link. After completion, the exam will be graded and you will be able to look at the
questions you answered incorrectly. Press “Retake Exam” and you can retake only those questions that you missed the first time.
9. Click on “Online Training Videos”
10. Click on MMA-101 “Software Scenarios Training Video”. Watch the video and follow steps in #8
above.
11. Click on “Online Training Videos”
12. Click on MMA-102 “Agent Software Training Video”. Watch the video and follow steps in #8
above.
13. Click on “MMA Course Study Guides”. There are six videos in this section. Watch each one and
take the corresponding exam. Press “Retake Exam” to correct the answers you missed the first time. The videos in this section are:
* MMA-102 “Analysis Software”
* MMA-103 “Activation Software”
* MMA-104 “FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) / Objections”
* MMA-105 “Policies and Procedures”
* MMA-106 “Mortgage Basics”
* MMA-107 “Compensation Plan”
14. After you have completed watching the videos and taking the exams for MMA100 through
MMA107, go to #9 on the “Exam Center” link “MMA Certification Final Exam” and take the
exam. After completion, the exam will be graded and you will be able to look at the questions you answered incorrectly. Press “Retake Exam” and you can retake only those questions that you missed the first time you took the exam.

[BartBandy]

Just one more glaring example of UFirst agent stupidity:

http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=10394050849

There is a UFirst “Fan” group on Facebook (link above). On their “Wall” (comment board), Kevin Miller of Winnipeg, MB wrote:

Hello everyone, I have been doing some research on UFF and the money merge account however can’t find any real proof as to the math and how it is beneficial as opposed to other methods of rapid mortgage repayment. Could someone please enlighten me….send me a message.

Thanks

Agent Michael Chase replied:

Kevin Miller it is called fractional math! UFF is not saying you cant do this yourself, it is just that you will not have the time to do it. My wife and I are taking our 26.5 years of debt down to 6.75 years with version 4.

Send me your email address to mschase1@(REMOVED) and I will send you the fractional math possibilities so you can understand

The MMA v4 - now with Fractional Math. I can not make this stuff up.

It should be noted that Kevin Miller himself lists "World Financial Group" on his Facebook profile - another MLM. Given that his question is probably planted, it makes the answer even more hilarious.

[Late2Game]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

What he really wants is the contact info for the agents so that he can market a new scam to them.

I even linked this thread to him, and no mention of it. He just sees that I have the master agent list and he wants phone numbers and addresses (which are not on the list, and if they were, I wouldn't publish them).

I guess Jim isn't too serious about keeping his UFF acount in good standing, seeing as how it is spelled out pretty clearly in their Policies to NOT market other businesses to Agents.

Normally, leads like that would cost $2+ a pop, for a specific demographic. For 50K agents, I might be willing to play!

[BartBandy]

I never thought of it that way. They vast majority of the agents on that list are just suckers themselves. If they bought the MMA, they aren't too bright. What else may they be willing to buy?

[BartBandy]

http://ufirstforum.com/thewholetruth...#comment-12069

Another "conversation" at the UFirst blogs. This one with "Roland", who took offense to something I wrote. Once again, they're sitting on my reply:

Originally Posted by Roland

In response to ***** Hansen (and others with “higher interest rate” theory),

First of all, if you haven’t used the software, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Period.

I do own the software, and I too believed that paying off my highest interest credit cards would get me to $0 debt fastest. I was wrong. My financial advisor told me the same thing. And HE was wrong. I fired him when I bought the software, and it’s costing me less than he was. I found out that paying off my 6% auto loan first, followed by my 12% student loan is faster than paying off my credit card first.

Sorry to the “high interest debts first” cultists, but in my case, you’re simply wrong. It would have taken me more than 2 1/2 years longer to pay my credit card first! Why? When I pay my car off first, that’s another $387 that goes to other debt every month, vs. only about $60 from my credit card being paid off. My mortgage with 26 years left will be paid off completely in about 8 years. And all my other debt at the same time. AND I’m not paying any more than I was before. As a matter of fact, I’m paying LESS now than I was before because I’m not paying a (so-called) financial advisor anymore to tell the wrong way to get out of debt and build wealth.

By the way, who cares if you don’t agree with halfcircles point? Your opinion was invalidated here as soon as made the “pay higher interest debts first” argument. You’re simply wrong. Admit it and get over it. Are you taking the time to make sure I get out of debt faster? Nope. But my software is. Just like I’m willing to invest a few bucks in a GPS system to get me where I’m driving faster, I’m more than willing to invest a few bucks in financial software that gets me to financially free faster, and so far is much more sound than your incorrect advice.

By the way, a $1000 debt at 10% with a $20/mo payment should NOT be paid before a $1000 debt at 5% with a $200/mo payment. It will take longer to pay off the debt that way and cost more in the long run. Some financial genius you are… You only look at part of the “algorithm”. Good grief. Too many people who haven’t used the software opening their mouths and inserting their feet online. And the naysayers over at the scams website are just a joke. Too stupid to even argue with over there. It’s almost comical if it weren’t so sad… Sounds just like “The bumblebee technically can’t fly.” Cracks me up…

If you’re such a financial expert, why aren’t you helping thousands of people get out of debt faster? Because you can’t. Why isn’t United First helping people get out of debt faster? Oh wait, they are! Don’t go away mad, just go away… your opinion is useless. And fortunately, that’s all it is. Just an opinion. Everyone has one, and yours smells. At least I have facts on my side to back me up, just like all the other happy United First customers.

This is my testimonial folks - I was promised a 100% money-back guarantee if the software couldn’t perform like I was told it would. So far, I’m actually a little ahead of where I’m supposed to be. The software works. It will get you out of debt faster. I was skeptical - I didn’t believe it would work. I’m glad I was proven wrong, and I’m a proud United First Financial customer. Check it out for yourselves if you’re curious - if it works to get you out of debt faster, use it. If it doesn’t, don’t. It’s just that simple. Ask for your own NO COST analysis to see if it might benefit you. You’re an adult, aren’t you? Get the facts for yourselves and make up your own minds. Think for YOURSELF here - it’s YOUR financial future at stake.

And did I also mention that the analysis is 100% FREE? LOL

Originally Posted by ***** (awaiting moderation, again)

Roland,

Thank you for replying, and mostly, thank you for actually taking a position that can be examined. Let me first refute your position that paying higher interest debts first is wrong. Doing that convincingly will take care of any concern that “(I) don’t know what (I’m) talking about”.

Ready?

There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to ordering the repayment of debts. The original “Debt Snowball” method is to pay your smaller debts first, which quickly frees up money that was being paid to service the minimum payments on those small debts, and can provide positive reinforcement when results are seen quickly. This is not a bad strategy, but it is less than optimal.

The optimal ordering is to pay higher interest rate debts first. Period. Short of getting interest rates reduced or consolidating higher interest debts into lower interest loans, and even then, pay the higher interest rates first.

First, let’s find some online literature on the subject:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/cc/19980713.asp
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...yOffFirst.aspx
http://www.finweb.com/financial-plan...ment-plan.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/money...ey101/lesson9/

There are plenty more where those came from, from industry names big and small. Some may advocate paying smaller balances first, but they will all agree that the fastest way is to becoming debt-free is to pay the highest interest rate debts first.

Now, let’s simulate it. You said, “a $1000 debt at 10% with a $20/mo payment should NOT be paid before a $1000 debt at 5% with a $200/mo payment. It will take longer to pay off the debt that way and cost more in the long run. Some financial genius you are…”

Here, you’ve changed the rules. You’ve given the 5% debt an unrealistic minimum payment of $200/mo. Let’s just compare apples to apples, and say both debts have $20/month minimum payments, and we have an extra $100/month to accelerate the payment of the debts. That is, we have $140 per month to work with, total. Here’s a spreadsheet comparing the two:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...hYT6ecN2_RWsBw

Pay Lower Interest Rate First: 15.12 months
Total interest paid: $116.27

Pay Higher Interest Rate First: 14.91 months
Total interest paid: $87.76

The greater the total debt, the larger the differences will become. We’re only dealing with $2000 in debt here.

Further down the spreadsheet, I’ve continued to pay the higher interest rate first, but increased the minimum payment on the 5% debt each time, to show why you wanted the minimum payment on the 5% debt unrealistically high:

$40 minimum payment on the 5% debt:
Pay Higher Interest Rate First: 14.94 months
Total interest paid: $91.75

$60 minimum payment on the 5% debt:
Pay Higher Interest Rate First: 15.28 months
Total interest paid: $98.93

$80 minimum payment on the 5% debt:
Pay Higher Interest Rate First: 15.05 months
Total interest paid: $106.46

The trend here is that as minimum payment on the lower interest debt is raised, the total interest paid increases as the focus of the payments shifts from the higher interest debt to the lower interest debt. Proving once again, “pay higher interest debts first”. The other thing to note is that, as the minimum payment of the 5% debt is increased to the point that the 5% debt is paid first, the total interest paid still increases.

We could further extrapolate this out to your situation with a car loan at 6%, student loan at 12%, and presumably higher rate credit card debt. Just post your numbers, and I’ll show you how much more slowly you’re paying those debts since you fired your financial advisor.

As anyone can see, there is nothing “cultish” about this. That the fastest way to pay off a series of debts is to pay the higher interest rates first is widely accepted and easily proven with math. You’re trying to argue against a mathematical proof with words, and that never works.

Note also, that the spreadsheet is not required to make these payments - just to prove that higher interest debts first is the fastest way.

Regards,
*****

[Late2Game]

Although not a conversation with an agent, I read the following on a agent forum that makes me wonder about the programmers UFF has:

Has anyone had any experience entering student loans in v4? I have a client with 5 student loans, all simple interest, 8 year term. If I enter them as a credit card the software gives them a 20 year term and it skews how much interest they save (because the software is thinking that they are paying more interest because the term is over 2x longer). If I enter them as a loan it thinks they have compound interest and the interest savings once again is off. If I enter them as an ALOC it just doesn't work.
Heelllp...

-Veronica Stork, #853443

How hard is it to program for various loan types and interest rates? It seems like in an atempt to come out with a "new" shiny version of their MMA program, it is still full of bugs.

From another agent board:

Todd;
Has the error in the analysis software been fixed when utilizing either financing option vs the full purchase price option? Currently it does not calculate correctly the interest savings and the years saved or paid. How is this going to impact a new client who chooses the finance option, but incorrectly states the payoff and interest savings when we have to submit a signed analysis?

Thanks.
-George Carbone, #849514

We are still working on automating the financing payment through the analysis. So you will need to make the recommended adjustments to adjust the analysis to show the true payoff time and interest savings.

-Todd Skousen, VP of Marketing, #842115

So if I had student loans and decided to finance MMA (Express or Pro), the odds that my "analysis" would be anywhere near correct are slim to none. But with all the agents that have signed up and quit, I'm sure UFF has capable coffers to refund their "Limited Guarantee".

[BartBandy]

UFirst is down to its last gasps. One marketing site that served to aggregate UFirst training information has moved on to other (auction and insurance deductible) scams. Some agents are making a last push back on the Internet, but it ain't working. There is just too much good information available online, showing how bad the MMA really is.

This latest conversation is with an agent from Canada whom I've had words with in the past and is in the form of YouTube comments. Tammy Lowe-Boucher loves to tell people that she is paying her 25 year mortgage "in 2 years" with the MMA. No proof is offered, of course. Further, Tammy is still a Senior Associate, which means she has between 6 and 12 sales. She has been an agent for a long time to have only that many sales, but she still believes. That may be because her upline is UFirst trainer Jason Lowe. As I said to Tammy, I don't know what the family relationship is, and I don't care, but this explains why Tammy is so sure this should work. Trainers make all the money at UFirst, because they can recruit. Their recruits all make a few sales to friends and family, then the sales dry up. Tammy is in remarkable denial about the scam.

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servl...%3DWMLPfAJG-1s

[calvinandhobbes]

Originally Posted by BartBandy

UFirst is down to its last gasps.

as much as I'd absolutely LOVE to see this be true, I have a feeling it's going to keep some level of sales. just too many stupid people out there in debt. I do agree there's lots of information out there exposing this, but there's lots of agents selling it as well.

we'll see. as I said, i hope you are right.

[BartBandy]

True, they'll probably get a few more sales, but there will be no skyrocketing sales numbers, and agents are jumping ship. I've already spoken to agents above who have left UFirst for their next scam. Jaime Buckley and The Jubilee Project are already promoting Dubli (The eBay Killer! - lol) on their site.

UFirst also have to collect on a few financed MMA sales which were sold at $2000 down and $1800 financed over 2 years. Compared to the $3500 one-time fee, that means UFirst is charging over 18% interest on this financing option. So much for "interest cancellation".

So no, they won't be gone in an instant, but they will simply fade away. Skylar and friends made their money, while clients were robbed for $3500 and many agents were duped into thinking they were helping. But at least UFirst never got a real foothold, and now the principals of UFirst have moved on to "UFirst Alliance", but no matter how legit they try to appear, they'll always have the albatross of the MMA around their necks.