CMS and Brad Daley

[bensorensen]

Originally Posted by 1CupOfFaith

Sounds like Redemption has an identical twin brother. hahahahaha!!

No joke this guy sounds like a bigger reject them him though

[Fencesitter]

I visited with the man today who runs a debt settlement website referred to in a couple of posts on this thread, and this man informed me that no matter if one's credit report is "clean" or not doesn't mean one is out of the woods with a creditor. Things change all the time, he said, and they can come back. Plainly, a creditor can still sue until the SoL is passed, 3, 4, or 6 years hence, depending on your state.

I would definitely think that this fact needs to be looked into, but this man was clearly of the expert status.

Now, if all CMS has to do is pass the 3-year mark in many states, surely we should have a bunch of people in 8 years who've done it? Where are they?

Really, this puts the need on the CMS faithful to think. Can you really believe that the reason we don't hear from all the successful people who have gone before us on this thread is just because they want to put things behind them? I think that people tend to be more loud and proud crusaders than that. So where are they? You think they don't know of this thread? Perhaps. But wouldn't it be a superb idea for Mr. Daley or Croix to send emails to all their successful clients and urge them to post here?

I don't think any of bensorensen's successes have passed the SoL's yet. If they have, that would be good to know. Can't CMS send our way ones that definitely have?

Sure, there will definitely be the naysayers who doubt the veracity of such posters, but that's a process we'll just have to go through. This is THE venue for them to appear and, so far, they're not here. We are waiting.

Look, I've been involved in these bulletin boards before with Irwin Schiff and Telecom 2000. In both cases the posters issued a lot of soothing comfort to each other because of this exact same lack of several years of verifiable successes. In the end the naysayers gave up trying to warn all the faithful and the adoring crowd was left holding the bag in each case. Both Mr. Schiff and Al Petty are now in jail.

Please understand that both of those men were likeable fellows. Although I'm not sure it's a fair pairing to discuss both of them in the same sentence (as I still think Mr. Schiff was right about the income tax, and Mr. Petty was, well, a Ponzi operator) keep in mind that trusting Brad Daley without HARDCORE PROOF is simply financial folly. With your money you need to make sure something works!

[Redemption]

Big Daddy is back, for those of you that missed me. Had to take care of the ranch and the cattle!!!

I will catch up with everyone tomorrow, now while scanning to the same junk the pumpers posts I wanted to address a couple post.

1cupoffaith,
I do not think you understand why I stated that Bankruptcy will not be an option. You need to re-read this thread to do so.

here is NO SUCH THING as eliminating your debt other than BK. Which, BTW, is the only LEGAL thing to do.

And when this thing IMPLODES, and you go in front of a BK judge, with the new laws, and they SEE what you have TRIED to do... you are screwed.

Go BK.. If you have no assets, then Chap 7, with Assets, Chap 13 and you will be paid off within a couple years.

It is simple folks. You are scamming the CC companies and if you think they do not know about this scam, you are really out in left field.

Once a BK judge sees the crap people tried to pull, they will throw your case out. You do not get to pass go... You must understand that you will be sending threatening letters to credit card companies while trying to defraud them behind the NOVATION crap. All this will pile up nicely and give your creditors more than enough ammunition to have your bankruptcy request dismissed. You do not have to take my word for it of course and are welcomed to do as you please with your life.


bensorensen,

lay off the crack pipe. That stuff kills...

babyblue06,

I love you doll, but you keep forgetting that you where sued once already every time you talk about your wonderful experience...

whistleblower_911,

what can I say. Your nick brings to mind the "little boy blew" joke "he needed no money".

Interested Party 01,

20/20 is what you all need to see this scam a mile away. Soon enough we will see folks crying the blues. 8 years in business buhhahahahah Now that is funny!!!!


MetalTaker,

You are my new hero, "keep on, keeping on"



PS.


I did it again, I ended up editing my post, I am sure that means something lol

[bensorensen]

Seriously everrytime you say that you are leaving, you come back. What is wrong with you?

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by bensorensen

Seriously everrytime you say that you are leaving, you come back. What is wrong with you?

I already told you, I have a split personality, where you not paying attention? Crap I doubt you where, a gold fish probably has a better attention spam "or was it span" bah who cares, as I was saying, a gold fish probably has a better attention span.

Interesting to see people all the sudden stating that they factored litigation before they joined the scam, it was not long ago when everyone claimed the system was unbeatable and credit card companies where running for cover. Now all the sudden they admit that the system sucks and they weighed the possibility of being sued. If you ask me I should get 10 points for that alone, wohooooo Does anyone else finds it rather odd that the more we expose the more the pumpers change their position???

Where is Santas, little helper? I need my posts spelled checked

[Bannanas]

The banks a reaping what they have sown. They "lend" imaginary "money" and expect to get back real money. They are scamming themselves. Boy, I sure feel sorry for them

[Hope80]

I see this thread keeps going in circles

Let's just wait another few months and we'll either have a lot of people who have had success or the same amount who have been scammed. This really isn't going anywhere now is it?

[1CupOfFaith]

I say BLACK,
You say WHITE!

It doesn't matter where you go or what you do, you will always find someone with a different opinion then your own. Thank goodness we live in a country where there is FREEDOM of speech and the right to voice your opinion. The problem is that sometimes, our opinions can be shadowed with doubt for one reason or another.

I've made decisions in my life that I later wished I wouldn't have. However, I deal with the consequences, because that's LIFE. Live and Learn. Regardless of what others say, we are ALL in control of our OWN futures. We ALL have access to the internet or attorneys or have the ability to read the law and determine for ourselves what we feel to be right or wrong.

This board is so opinionated one way or the other, that it's virtually impossible to have a happy "middle ground". So, the final decision that you make, whatever it may be, has ultimately got to rest on YOUR shoulders. This is not babyblue or redemption or anyone in between. The final decision is up to the individual and you have no one to blame for your actions but yourself!

Whatever brought you to this board, you will find a friend that agrees with your way of thinking. But, remember, it will depend on why your here. If you want this to work, you will find others that feel the same way. If you don't agree with it, you will find them too.

The outcome is up to you.

[Ponderer]

I am posting this in a new thread too as this one has gotten quite long. I believe it is important for people doing searches to be able to get right to the meat rather than wading through what turned into a pom-pom and shilling session on this thread of over 700 posts with nowhere near enough cold ***** thrown on it to wake people up (though some have tried).
CMS is just another program in a long string of programs touted as a means to eliminate your debt through some loophole or process. The people who operate and promote this and, other programs, are preying on consumers who are stressed out and at the end of their financial rope. The successful mark is not thinking clearly and is often willing to cling to hope that is expertly delivered by sales reps. Think for a moment where you were at mentally when you filled out some form on the net for a consult and got a call introducing you to CMS. Frazzled is where. You would have to be to lend any credibility to some stranger calling you with a sympathetic sounding but slick pitch that when boiled down to its basic essence is as simple as “send me money and you will never have to pay your debt again”. To be certain there would have to be some emotionally appealing filler thrown in. I am sure some current event “banks are the bad guys, just watch the news” dialogue too. These are experienced people who will hit every nerve possible. They are nice sounding and patient for you to make a decision. They have to be. If they go for the money on the first call with a program like this you would have totally backed away. What they know is that times are tough for you and the prospect of not having to pay your debt back will start to sink in. In short order, for many of you, that carrot, the thought of not having to struggle anymore, for a mere few thousand dollars, paid to the order of slick sales person and Brad Daly, will begin to cloud your judgment. Critical thinking having been eliminated you will begin to convince yourself this will work. That’s all they have to do. Let you stew on the concept, loose off a little reality and you sell yourself. It’s successful enough to keep um at it from program to program.
From what I have been able to glean, CMS has only had recognizable interaction with consumers for something like the last 18 months. Claims of having been at this for 5+ years are a bit dubious in that there is nothing available to substantiate this. It is perhaps likely that Brad has had experience working with consumers on debt related issues that long or, maybe one could speculate that he has done his novation/assignment/torturous interference longer than 18 months. Whatever the case, Brad Daly and his CMS process existed in near obscurity until recently and only found momentum, I would posit, when a ready body of sales reps came on the scene to promote it. There has been some intense regulatory and civil action in the debt relief area in the last couple years and as is the norm, these sales people will float from one elimination scam to the next after the one they promote predictably falls apart or the cops put and end to it. It is likely Brad found traction this way.
Novation is nothing new to the world of debt elimination techniques. It was first offered to the public as one of the many methods of “send me money and never pay your debt again” by John Gliha in the late nineties. John even gave up on it. There is good case law on the process in California (perhaps as a result of John’s efforts) and elsewhere I am sure. Brad has gotten creative and thrown an assignment of debt into the mix along with terms that are sure to be breached and is hanging your future on his contract theory. It is an intriguing twist, I will admit. Many theories can be intriguing. Legal theories can be compelling. Bring this theory to an attorney with a dabbling of contract experience and they will likely speak to this intrigue. Take this intrigue to any level of critical thought and it will fall flat. Take the whole process in its entirety and it will be seen for what it is, Fraud.
I understand there is an attorney working for Brad on this. This is one attorney and, he is being paid by Brad which establishes bias. He has to pay the bills and put food on the table and Brad is helping him do that. Nonetheless this fact is bandied about to lend credibility to this scam, er, process. If you truly wish to establish whether this program is the fantasy it truly is, bring it to an attorney with a successful consumer practice for review. Why a consumer attorney? They are not bank or collection industry sympathizers and look for opportunities to go toe to toe with them. In most cases they have already needled through these unsecured contracts the creditors use and many can recite them by rote. There should prove a ready pool of them willing to debunk the latest elimination/monetary protestation scam as they also are called upon to clean up the mess the consumers find themselves in when the scammers are gone.
There have been other attorneys that function in debt elimination and have been shown to have been very wrong in their theorem and approaches. If you are seriously doing research pull up a search on Hess Kennedy, Consumer Law Center, Campos Chartered et al. Here is a recent example of a firm placed in receivership, an attorney disbarred and action taken by several states AG as well as civil action by banks. Here, things went very wrong but not before it ran its course for a couple years and affected over 6000 consumers nationwide. A very unique aspect of this case is that there are aggressive claw-back measures being pursued by those in a position to do so where the promoters are being pressed to return the monies and commissions they were paid (in some cases, to the tune of millions). Look for more of these claw-back measures and the establishment of complicity in the future.
How about Robert Lock and CCDN (Credit Collection Defense Network)? If memory serves Lock associated with the afore mentioned John Gliha who published “Winning the collection Game” in the mid nineties and later moved onto novation and I think a brief stint with arbitration claims that went badly. Lock and his promoters are all across the net for your reading pleasure. He and some of the people and businesses connected to him are merrily entrenched in the defense of a class action suit brought in Illinois. If they don’t settle the case it will likely prove to go badly for them. I am sure though, they were confident of their position on things just like Laura Hess above. They are after all attorneys, with all of the credibility that brought to the victims who decided to join the programs.
The point here is that an attorney does not necessarily lend credibility in the absolute. Perhaps Brad’s attorney is willing to risk his bar card with this theory. He may indeed. Someone may feel the need to respond to this and throw attorney credentials or write ups in defense of this scam but save it. Promoters of Lock have been doing that for years.
I do not think it a good use of time to bring out lack of complaints to the BBB and all that bunk. It’s a diversion to make existing and future marks feel good about their decision. Just like the current banking turmoil is used as a diversion. Or, fractional reserve banking, GAAP, banks cannot lend their own money etc… which have been used in years past and still today. This is all just a diversion used to lull you into the carrot trance I spoke of earlier, until enough time passes for the prospect of never paying your debt again, sinks in. SNAP OUT OF IT! WAKE UP!
The scam promoter will try to meet all of your objections with many assurances. One of those objections raised by a mark is how this affects their credit. The scam has to address this. Most people have spent their entire adult life conditioned to fret about it as it affects so many aspects of their lives. The answer is credit repair. Now we’re talking. This will all start to sink in quite nicely. Send money to Brad and the promoter and never pay my debt again and they are promising that my credit will be cleaned to boot and in a mere year or so. I will be back on my feet in no time and getting credit again. If you cannot see where this is going, you are not thinking clearly.
Brad is figuring parts of this out as he goes. This is evidenced by the fact that he was doing credit repair and suddenly he is not. Any self respecting debt guru knows how aggressive regulators are about going after credit repair companies. Not Brad. Suddenly though, he is now outsourcing all of his customers to Alexin for credit repair because he just figured out that he is violating the Credit Repair Organization Act. Posters on this site have suggested that Brad is paying Alexin to perform the credit repair that he promises you. Is this arms length away from him in enough a manner that he is protected from violation of the Act? Using a strict interpretation of it, not likely. Is Alexin, his choice to source you off to, performing their part in strict adherence to compliance? Find out. If not, why not and why would a guy telling you everything is legit that he’s doing, not care enough to check out if who he is schlepping you off to is legit. If he just figured that out, I wonder how long it will take him to figure out that he may be violating the debt pooling laws in WV or perhaps debt adjuster laws in several states. He is after all offering to adjust your debt… to nothing. This is only the light stuff. It gets heavier as we approach how he may be violating both state and federal UDAP laws (Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices). Search it up. Take google for a spin. Learn what it is I am talking about here and while you’re at it encourage Brad and his attorney to do the same. It gets still heavier but, more of that in a moment.
These things progress from what appears to be a solid plan in the beginning but then d*****e into changes that repeat time after time. Early participants had all the straight talk and nothing appeared to diverge. As all the predictable aspects of having defaulted on a debt take shape with an increasing number of consumers signed into the elimination scam, things start to change. They already are with Brad. He figured out the credit repair angle as discussed. Most expert debt elimination scammers know not to dabble with government backed debt like student loans. Not Brad. Look for that to stop being offered soon too. Claims of nobody having been sued will then lead to only very few get sued. The ACA and ABA have some pretty talented well paid legal talent. A new twist on an old scam may take a few extra months to strategize their legal approach when suing CMS customers. When these suits begin they will do so in earnest and the approach they take will be broadcast to their member attorneys around the country. They will treat these cases with aggression due to the scam nature of them all. When the CMS promoters start preaching and peddling asset protection, BEWARE, the scam has run its course and will quickly deteriorate from there.
Now, let’s get real and look at CMS in its entirety. You get contacted by a promoter and are sold on this process and send them money. They keep their cut and send the rest to Brad who then sends his new tortuously interfering contract which, you have been told up front by the promoter, means you do not have to pay that debt back. Brad and CMS own the debt and he is going to use this new contract he sends so that he won’t have to pay the debt back either. He is going to eliminate it. Everyone in this little triangle knows this up front and willingly chooses to participate. You, the promoter, and Brad have planned this out in advance. What I have just described to you is a conspiracy to commit fraud followed by the act of committing fraud. Let that sink in. The nice and sympathetic sounding man or woman who contacted you who is offering you an option to get out of debt, who’s true and only goal is for you to pay them money is blatantly inviting you to conspire to commit FRAUD! Throw in the claims and expectations that your credit will be repaired so that you can get credit shortly after committing fraud and this picture is crystal clear. These people are selling you an opportunity to commit a crime. This thing does not pass the smell test from 100 yards away for anyone applying logic to it.
It gets worse. Those of you going for the whole government backed student loan angle on the scam are conspiring to commit fraud against the United States government! Brad has probably not factored this one in. He will. Look for student loans to be removed from the fraud offering.
I talked about intriguing theories earlier. I just came up with one. Due to the recent banking turmoil the government was forced to take senior bond positions in many national banks. One could theorize that Brad and his promoters and customers have conspired to commit fraud against the U.S. without the student loan angle. See, I told you, many theories have intrigue.
For those of you reading this that are already involved, it is not as simple as “ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances”. You are justifying fraud with excuses. Naturally the excuses sound good to you. The scam sales person may have already planted some excuses in your head. “This is the only chance I have to avoid bankruptcy”, “The banks won’t work with me so this is what they deserve”, “I don’t have the money to pay so what else am I to do”, “it’s a gamble, but if it works…” Folks this is not some side bet at a poker table. This is, pure and simple, you being complicit to fraud.
Let’s move on to exposure. What is the likelihood, since this has been running for a verifiable 18 months, state regulators are already aware of it? Pretty good. How about the feds? Very good. Do you know how this stuff is treated by banks? Be assured that each one of the accounts that have been through CMS are in a neat little file at each institution for future use. These files and/or reports of their existence have assuredly already been sent off to the financial crimes and criminal fraud divisions of regulatory bodies like the OTS, FBI, FTC, Treasury and DOJ. These offices know now or, will soon know, all of you who are participating. Federal regulators are now, and have been for months actively engaged in operation “clean sweep” as it has been dubbed, with an extreme focus on the bad players and scammers in the debt relief industry. CMS is well within its crosshairs. Customers, promoters, and certainly Brad have exposed themselves to this scrutiny. Not good, not at all. Brad and the promoters will get what they have coming. You as a customer should immediately demand your money back, no matter the duration of your involvement. This will help show you were a victim. If the people you sent your money to are such stand up folks they would give you your money back right? If you told them you have doubts and shared with them this post they would refund you, right? Not likely. These people you trusted are not here to help you. They spent their cut of the money you sent already. Ask brad for the money back that he got. He likely won’t have it either and will probably say that he has performed as contracted so you are not entitled to your funds back. While it may not help to convince him to return your money, don’t hesitate to point out that he contracted with you to commit what you now know is fraud which leads to an inherent problem with that contract he is relying on. They will come off all soothing and say the guy who wrote this (me) works for the banks or collectors or runs some other scam that competes with Brad or other such garbage to calm you down and get you back on the carrot. They will say these and other things and, be wrong.
As you become more aware that you have been scammed into fraud, or that someone is trying to get you to engage in fraud, contact state and federal authorities and provide them with any details they request of you.
Anyone contacted by Brad or his reps having now read this who have been considering paying to enter this scam, send them this post and listen to their responses which will hopefully now sound ridiculous to you.
There will be posts to follow this one made by different types of people. The ones that will attempt to refute any of what I have spelled out clearly hear will be from the promoters (carrot pushers) and, perhaps from Brad Daly (the carrot king) or, sadly from current customers who swallowed all the carrots fed to them. Read these posts but, look at them for what they are, carrot puke. They will be posted in furtherance of a fraud.
If you are currently involved with this program or thinking about joining and have this circular logic/excuse running through your head “I don’t/didn’t have any other options” or “I don’t have the money to keep paying these debts so I took or, will take, the chance that this works”, STOP! You have to step away from the carrot or the fallacy that you have/can send these people money and never have to think about these debts again. Because what you are really saying is “I had no choice or other options and had to knowingly and willfully conspire to commit fraud”.
Your decision has or will boil down to nothing but this reality.

[Bannanas]

What are you smonk'in Ponderer?
This is not fraud. The banks are willing participants.
Out of greed the banks and other financial institutions loaned "money" to people they knew would never be able to pay (called sub prime lending). They are responsible for this economic depression the world is in. Wake up people!
It is time for a change...that change is Brad Daley and his CMS program. I am having success with this program. the CMS process is brilliant and wonderful. It brings the banks to their knees asking for mercy, but there is no mercy as what they have done is unforgivable!

[Ponderer]

Bannanas, you have provided a perfect example of carrot puke.

Brad is brilliant and the saviour to all of debtorkind and has the banks begging for mercy and is a hero the likes of which the world has never seen.

Or

He and you are just run of the mill fraudsters the likes of which the world continues to see over and over.

Place your bets...

I feel a song coming on...

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Bannanas

What are you smonk'in Ponderer?
This is not fraud. The banks are willing participants.
Out of greed the banks and other financial institutions loaned "money" to people they knew would never be able to pay (called sub prime lending). They are responsible for this economic depression the world is in. Wake up people!
It is time for a change...that change is Brad Daley and his CMS program. I am having success with this program. the CMS process is brilliant and wonderful. It brings the banks to their knees asking for mercy, but there is no mercy as what they have done is unforgivable!

Bannanas,

By the way, lay of my line. The only crack smoker in the house is Bensorensen.

That is the best you can come up with after that great post? I truly hope that you are not a real customer, although you would deserve to loose what the poor souls will loose when this thing burst on its seam.

You keep forgetting that NOVATION is a myth and there is no contract that override the original contract. Then you attempt to defraud credit card companies, banks and Uncle sam with KAKA letters telling them that you wrrote your own contract and they have to accept it due to NOVATION. Get a life...

Now if I was a customer, it would make sense for them to protect themselves by requesting their money back in writing, so that when the fat lady starts singing they will at least look like suckers instead of willing participants.

I have never thought about the ramifications of the associates selling the program and pushing others into the scam. What a great post Ponderer!

For all the people on denial, read the post a couple times. After doing so, do yourself a favor and contact and attorney and have them translate in laymen words what Ponder just told you. It is not going to be such a great program after that. You already blew 3 to 5k why not throw another 300 after it and educate yourself.

GOOGLE is your best friend, why not research for yourself how the other novation scams ended?

[Bannanas]

Maybe I got that wrong Ponderer--Maybe you can't afford the smoke anymore and you are in withdrawal. Don't worry too much, you will find someone to defraud again once the bailout "money" kicks in.

I guess Ponderer and Redemption can't stand to be wrong. Face the facts nutcases, you are WRONG

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Bannanas

Maybe I got that wrong Ponderer--Maybe you can't afford the smoke anymore and you are in withdrawal. Don't worry too much, you will find someone to defraud again once the bailout "money" kicks in.

Ok you need to start making sense if you want people to take you seriously. I can recommend a good psychiatrist if u need one. You try to obfuscate the truth with jibberjabber.

I dub thee retardo...


I it is not the one committing fraud and recruiting people on false pretenses while getting a cut. You think when crap hits the fan that Brad will not try wash his hands and lay everything on all of you that have gotten people into the program and made a dime while doing so?

[Bannanas]

OK I am tired of listening to toddlers trying to talk in between pacifier sucking. Had your diaper changed lately?
I'll come back to report my complete success very soon. Until then try to keep the Gerber off your faces

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Bannanas

OK I am tired of listening to toddlers trying to talk in between pacifier sucking. Had your diaper changed lately?
I'll come back to report my complete success very soon. Until then try to keep the Gerber off your faces

Lol,

Where you are headed there is no coming back... Good luck with Big Bubba, I hear he likes the top bunk.


Your idea of success is so lame. Basically after giving someone 5k to make you an accessory to fraud you sit down and pray that you do not get sued out of your home kids and family. You can keep that success.

PS.
Remember you still owe everything you owed before the program, right after you are done with the program. The only difference is that your wallet will be a little lighter...

[bluehomer]

I don't post much, but I am up to date here. I have been in the program since 1/08 and now I am in the credit card clean up process. I can see the debt collectors are posting on here and trying to scare people again. For the most part, people who sign up in CMS don't have no other choice. If you file for BK you will have to pay back your debt(most likely to debt collectors) within 3 or 4 years or sell off your assets. Well the only problem is that, if you could not pay your debt before what makes you think you can pay it now. And for people who have assets, you should have already talked to an attorney about asset protection. For me CMS was the best choice. I could not pay my CC debt because work just about stopped, I now owe more than my house is worth and pretty much own nothing but debt. If for some reason CMS don't work for me then I will file for BK(it's always an option). The way I look at it, if you don't own anything, they can't take anything. I am very pleased with CMS and I definitely maid the right choice. I will post again in March after the clean up.

PS: Please don't feed the animals

[Fencesitter]

Hi Ponderer, that was a superb post. Thanks for the detailed info.

Listen up all CMS faithful! Do you want "I didn't know" to be your only defense when the CMS judgement day comes? You'd better heed Ponderer's warning to absolutely get out, and get out now, no matter how far you are involved in the program. As he says, you will at least be able to claim you were swindled and a victim, and not a conspirator. And while you're at it, if CMS won't refund your money, immediately write to your credit card that you used to pay the CMS fee with and dispute the charge. Ironically, your credit card might just do you a huge favor and take the CMS charge off your account with them if it hasn't been too long.

I also don't think it would be a bad idea to contact all your other credit cards and tell them CMS does not represent you and apologize for any indications otherwise.

It would be much better to do as the Honorable Judge Roy Bean recommended on this thread, that is to head to www.zipdebt.com and go through Charles Phelan's program. Mr. Phelan's plan will help you sleep better at night. Think about it! With his program you'll get actual letters from your creditors saying YOUR DEBT IS DONE. What can help you sleep better than that!!
The goal of his program is between 20% and 50% settlements, but whatever it is, you're HONESTLY AND ETHICALLY done. Less than two years and *finito*.

With Mr. Daley and CMS you should be tossing and turning until the SoL has passed. Keep in mind that since that is 3 to 6 years, for most of us, depending where you live, you are terribly risking being the other kind of SoL before the statute bell arrives to save you.

Be smart. Re-read Ponderer's excellent post and take it to heart. You don't have to be the laboratory guinea pig for CMS. And you don't have to apologize to anybody or think badly of yourself for falling for the CMS snare. We all want to live debt-free.

But please think! For every day you are in the CMS program you are screwing up your chances at something valid like Phelan's program. Heck, you'll even screw up bankruptcy if you maintain the CMS course long enough. The judge is not going to see you as someone dealing in good faith. Unless someone can explain otherwise to you, why risk it? I am in complete agreement with Ponderer.

If you are just now considering the CMS ploy, DON'T! Go to the link above instead, and consider that. If you are already caught in the CMS web, the spider she's a comin'. Get yourself away from these people any way you can!

GET OUT NOW AND COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATE PLAN.

[nomaxim]

Originally Posted by bluehomer

If you file for BK you will have to pay back your debt(most likely to debt collectors) within 3 or 4 years or sell off your assets.

-and-

The way I look at it, if you don't own anything, they can't take anything.

Sorry, but you seem to be rather misinformed about bankruptcy.

uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter7

The Chapter 7 Discharge

A discharge releases individual debtors from personal liability for most debts and prevents the creditors owed those debts from taking any collection actions against the debtor.

Granted, if you own a couple of homes and properties, a yacht, and have a car collection you would likely have to sell off assets. At least for any unsecured debt. But, if you have nothing then there is nothing to take.

Secured debt is a different matter. However, you can most often obtain a reaffirmation.

Secured creditors may retain some rights to seize property securing an underlying debt even after a discharge is granted. Depending on individual circumstances, if a debtor wishes to keep certain secured property (such as an automobile), he or she may decide to "reaffirm" the debt. A reaffirmation is an agreement between the debtor and the creditor that the debtor will remain liable and will pay all or a portion of the money owed, even though the debt would otherwise be discharged in the bankruptcy. In return, the creditor promises that it will not repossess or take back the automobile or other property so long as the debtor continues to pay the debt.

Also, these matters can not be generally discharged in a CH.7.

An individual receives a discharge for most of his or her debts in a chapter 7 bankruptcy case. A creditor may no longer initiate or continue any legal or other action against the debtor to collect a discharged debt. But not all of an individual's debts are discharged in chapter 7. Debts not discharged include debts for alimony and child support, certain taxes, debts for certain educational benefit overpayments or loans made or guaranteed by a governmental unit, debts for willful and malicious injury by the debtor to another entity or to the property of another entity, debts for death or personal injury caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while the debtor was intoxicated from alcohol or other substances, and debts for certain criminal restitution orders.11 U.S.C. § 523(a). The debtor will continue to be liable for these types of debts to the extent that they are not paid in the chapter 7 case. Debts for money or property obtained by false pretenses, debts for fraud or defalcation while acting in a fiduciary capacity, and debts for willful and malicious injury by the debtor to another entity or to the property of another entity will be discharged unless a creditor timely files and prevails in an action to have such debts declared nondischargeable. 11 U.S.C. § 523(c); Fed. R. Bankr. P. 4007(c).

Here is the information for a Chapter 11, uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter11.

A case filed under chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code is frequently referred to as a "reorganization" bankruptcy.

Chapter 13, uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter13.

Chapter 13 offers individuals a number of advantages over liquidation under chapter 7. Perhaps most significantly, chapter 13 offers individuals an opportunity to save their homes from foreclosure. By filing under this chapter, individuals can stop foreclosure proceedings and may cure delinquent mortgage payments over time. Nevertheless, they must still make all mortgage payments that come due during the chapter 13 plan on time. Another advantage of chapter 13 is that it allows individuals to reschedule secured debts (other than a mortgage for their primary residence) and extend them over the life of the chapter 13 plan. Doing this may lower the payments. Chapter 13 also has a special provision that protects third parties who are liable with the debtor on "consumer debts." This provision may protect co-signers. Finally, chapter 13 acts like a consolidation loan under which the individual makes the plan payments to a chapter 13 trustee who then distributes payments to creditors. Individuals will have no direct contact with creditors while under chapter 13 protection.

And, if you happen to be a farmer of fisherman, Chapter 12, uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter12.

[Fencesitter]

Nomaxim, Could this be construed to mean the credit card companies could, with their normally unsecured and dischargeable accounts, file to make the obligations of a CMS conspirator non-dischargeable?

Thanks,

Debts for money or property obtained by false pretenses, debts for fraud or defalcation while acting in a fiduciary capacity, and debts for willful and malicious injury by the debtor to another entity or to the property of another entity will be discharged unless a creditor timely files and prevails in an action to have such debts declared nondischargeable. 11 U.S.C. § 523(c); Fed. R. Bankr. P. 4007(c

[nomaxim]

Originally Posted by Fencesitter

Nomaxim, Could this be construed to mean the credit card companies could, with their normally unsecured and dischargeable accounts, file to make the obligations of a CMS conspirator non-dischargeable?

Thanks,

That appears to be the case if what CMS is doing is found to be illegal.
law.cornell.edu/uscode/11/523.html

§ 523. Exceptions to discharge
(c)
(1) Except as provided in subsection (a)(3)(B) of this section, the debtor shall be discharged from a debt of a kind specified in paragraph (2), (4), or (6) of subsection (a) of this section, unless, on request of the creditor to whom such debt is owed, and after notice and a hearing, the court determines such debt to be excepted from discharge under paragraph (2), (4), or (6), as the case may be, of subsection (a) of this section.

(a)(3)(B)

(a)
(3) neither listed nor scheduled under section 521 (1) of this title, with the name, if known to the debtor, of the creditor to whom such debt is owed, in time to permit—
(B) if such debt is of a kind specified in paragraph (2), (4), or (6) of this subsection, timely filing of a proof of claim and timely request for a determination of dis*chargeability of such debt under one of such paragraphs, unless such creditor had notice or actual knowledge of the case in time for such timely filing and request;

(a)(2)

(a)
(2) for money, property, services, or an extension, renewal, or refinancing of credit, to the extent obtained by—
(A) false pretenses, a false representation, or actual fraud, other than a statement respecting the debtor’s or an insider’s financial condition;
(B) use of a statement in writing—
(i) that is materially false;
(ii) respecting the debtor’s or an insider’s financial condition;
(iii) on which the creditor to whom the debtor is liable for such money, property, services, or credit reasonably relied; and
(iv) that the debtor caused to be made or published with intent to deceive; or
(C)
(i) for purposes of subparagraph (A)—
(I) consumer debts owed to a single creditor and aggregating more than $500 for luxury goods or services incurred by an individual debtor on or within 90 days before the order for relief under this title are presumed to be nondischargeable; and
(II) cash advances aggregating more than $750 that are extensions of consumer credit under an open end credit plan obtained by an individual debtor on or within 70 days before the order for relief under this title, are presumed to be nondischargeable; and
(ii) for purposes of this subparagraph—
(I) the terms “consumer”, “credit”, and “open end credit plan” have the same meanings as in section 103 of the Truth in Lending Act; and
(II) the term “luxury goods or services” does not include goods or services reasonably necessary for the support or maintenance of the debtor or a dependent of the debtor.

(a)(4)

(a)
(4) for fraud or defalcation while acting in a fiduciary capacity, embezzlement, or larceny;

(a)(6)

(a)
(6) for willful and malicious injury by the debtor to another entity or to the property of another entity;

[Bannanas]

I thought the debtors and debt collectors on this board might like this. I hope Obama's financial team reads this and reverses the 2005 BK reform fiasco.

2005 Bankruptcy Reform Legislation Responsible for Foreclosure Crisis?

January 14th, 2009 An article in the Kansas City Star by Dan Margolies reported that researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York recently argued that Bankruptcy Reform Legislation that went into effect in October 2005 helped trigger the surge in home foreclosures. The researchers argued that the legislation shifted the risk from credit card lenders to mortgage lenders. “The new law blocks that escape route (chapter 7) and forces better-off households to continue paying credit card debt, which makes it harder than before to continue paying the mortgage.”
Before the 2005 legislation many homeowners could eliminate unsecured debts and free up income to make mortgage payments. The 2005 legislation forced most households with income in excess of the domicile state’s “median” are unable to qualify for chapter 7 relief and now must seek protection under chapter 13. In chapter 13, the amount paid to unsecured creditors is often determined through the application of a fictional means test where Congress designates the proper income and expenses to use in calculating the “means” to repay debt. This fictional “means” test not only denies many homeowners chapter 7 relief that could have allowed them to free up monthly income to maintain mortgage payments, but also forces them into chapter 13 plans that require burdensome and unaffordable paybacks to unsecured creditors. This results in more homeowners facing foreclosure.
“Is it just coincidence that the surge in subprime foreclosures that has rocked the financial markets came right after the bankruptcy reform in 2005?” they asked. “Is that surge just about falling home prices, bad mortgage decisions and weak economic conditions? “No and no.”
The lead author of the paper, Donald P. Morgan, is a research officer at the New York Fed. He said last week in a phone interview that he was “99 percent confident” that the bankruptcy reform law was a major reason for the foreclosure crisis and the falling housing prices that have affected virtually every homeowner in America. Home prices have fallen 12.3 percent over the 12 months ending in November, according to the National Association of Realtors.
The conclusions of Mr. Morgan and his colleagues at the Fed agree with other earlier findings that also point to the 2005 reform as a cause for increased mortgage defaults. Treasury Department economist, David P. Bernstein wrote in a recent paper that one of the ironies of the 2005 law was that many of the financial institutions that lobbied for the reform have been weakened by it. Academic experts reviewing 2007 bankruptcy data recently suggested that those purged from the bankruptcy rolls “appear to have been ordinary American families in serious financial distress.”
It appears opponents of the 2005 legislation, including this author, have been proven right. We predicted that the legislation would only temporarily halt bankruptcy filings and that the increased payments to credit card companies would simply hurt secured lenders. Given the financial troubles of auto manufacturers and the foreclosure crisis that has occured since 2005, our predictions have unfortunately borne out. It’s time to reverse the 2005 legislation and repeal the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005! Let’s stop the bleeding!

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Bannanas

I thought the debtors and debt collectors on this board might like this. I hope Obama's financial team reads this and reverses the 2005 BK reform fiasco.

2005 Bankruptcy Reform Legislation Responsible for Foreclosure Crisis?

January 14th, 2009 An article in the Kansas City Star by Dan Margolies reported that researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York recently argued that Bankruptcy Reform Legislation that went into effect in October 2005 helped trigger the surge in home foreclosures. The researchers argued that the legislation shifted the risk from credit card lenders to mortgage lenders. “The new law blocks that escape route (chapter 7) and forces better-off households to continue paying credit card debt, which makes it harder than before to continue paying the mortgage.”
Before the 2005 legislation many homeowners could eliminate unsecured debts and free up income to make mortgage payments. The 2005 legislation forced most households with income in excess of the domicile state’s “median” are unable to qualify for chapter 7 relief and now must seek protection under chapter 13. In chapter 13, the amount paid to unsecured creditors is often determined through the application of a fictional means test where Congress designates the proper income and expenses to use in calculating the “means” to repay debt. This fictional “means” test not only denies many homeowners chapter 7 relief that could have allowed them to free up monthly income to maintain mortgage payments, but also forces them into chapter 13 plans that require burdensome and unaffordable paybacks to unsecured creditors. This results in more homeowners facing foreclosure.
“Is it just coincidence that the surge in subprime foreclosures that has rocked the financial markets came right after the bankruptcy reform in 2005?” they asked. “Is that surge just about falling home prices, bad mortgage decisions and weak economic conditions? “No and no.”
The lead author of the paper, Donald P. Morgan, is a research officer at the New York Fed. He said last week in a phone interview that he was “99 percent confident” that the bankruptcy reform law was a major reason for the foreclosure crisis and the falling housing prices that have affected virtually every homeowner in America. Home prices have fallen 12.3 percent over the 12 months ending in November, according to the National Association of Realtors.
The conclusions of Mr. Morgan and his colleagues at the Fed agree with other earlier findings that also point to the 2005 reform as a cause for increased mortgage defaults. Treasury Department economist, David P. Bernstein wrote in a recent paper that one of the ironies of the 2005 law was that many of the financial institutions that lobbied for the reform have been weakened by it. Academic experts reviewing 2007 bankruptcy data recently suggested that those purged from the bankruptcy rolls “appear to have been ordinary American families in serious financial distress.”
It appears opponents of the 2005 legislation, including this author, have been proven right. We predicted that the legislation would only temporarily halt bankruptcy filings and that the increased payments to credit card companies would simply hurt secured lenders. Given the financial troubles of auto manufacturers and the foreclosure crisis that has occured since 2005, our predictions have unfortunately borne out. It’s time to reverse the 2005 legislation and repeal the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005! Let’s stop the bleeding!

My goodness, what does bankruptcy reform has to do with the scam Brad Daley is running? By the way, everything being said against you "BRAD" has been backup by cases. Stop scamming people and get a real job.

[Bannanas]

BK reform has a lot to do with putting scam scum debt collectors out of business

[bensorensen]

Anyone that comes on this thread.
The thread has become over run with credit companies and clients are no longer/hardly responding in this thread anymore. -Thanks for your interest/input, but contact your agent for more info or you can pm somebody or somebody may reply on this thread, but that is up to them but for the most part people will not respond.

[nomaxim]

Umm, it appears that since the name calling, wild accusations, and personal attacks didn't work that some people are betting that typing in bigger fonts will get their side of the discussion across and reinforce their point of view.

Should we expect all caps and fonts in different colors next?

Originally Posted by bensorensen

Okay what you are doing right now is salient, but yes I ask you to be logical and come up with some impertinent sophisticated rebutle instead of just coming up with a futile illlogical agruments.

Thanks in advance for showing some sophistication and maturity

By the way. This thread started 6 months ago and has had almost 47,000 views. That's a average of ~260 views a day.

[maglight]

Hi guys, this was sent to my e mail today from my CMS Agent Dave!

Check out the attachment as well! Maglight!

*************************

Hi ,
Dave here just touching base. It's been a few weeks since you first
enrolled with Court Mediation Services and by now a few things
should have happened. If you sent your account paperwork off
promptly you should have seen your checks clear the bank and have
received your signed copies of the assignments back in the mail.
You should receive copies of your Notices of Assignment within 4
weeks of mailing them into CMS. If you don't email customer service
at cmsaccess@gmail.com and let me know as well. There is probably
nothing wrong but I just want to make sure we stay on top of
things. It doesn't happen often but sometimes things can fall
through the cracks.
By now the credit card companies are starting to call. Remember you
do not have to talk with them. If you do answer the phone just say
"I do not handle financial matters over the phone, please
correspond in writing" and hang up.
If this does not make them stop calling refer back to your welcome
email and use the "Do Not Call" letter. Please make sure you read
the instructions and follow them carefully. If you do this will
stop the vast majority of the harassing phone calls. If it doesn't,
keep a log of the calls for a week or so and send this with copies
of the "Do Not Call" letters and mail receipts to CMS. Brad will
most likely be able to take care of this for you.
As always, remember to forward all the mail. Just remove the junk
and at least once a week put it all in a larger envelope and
forward it off to CMS.
That's it for now. As always feel free to call or write me.
Sincerely,
Dave Johnson
Debt Specialist
DebtClear

[maglight]

Here is another e mail, Guys CMS is for real!

Based on the response to my last email where I gave you a link to
the scam.com forum page about CMS and Brad Daley it is clear that
nothing is really clear at all. That's just the way it is with
certain areas of the law. And this is certainly one that is
controversial.

Those of you that went and read the forum may have come away really
wondering what the truth is. If you only read the first page or two
you are probably thinking I'm completely nuts for having pointed
you to the site.

The main question is whether or not the Court Mediation Services
(CMS) process is legal. The answer is a resounding "YES". The CMS
program is firmly based in the law and developed with a deep
understanding of the debt collection industry.

The founder and CEO of CMS, Bradford Daley, was a debt collector
for over 10 years, and has been a court mediator for over 7 years.
Brad developed the program in consult with CMS’s general counsel,
David Grossack, a well-known author and activist who was named one
of the state’s ten best lawyers by the Boston Herald and was
awarded Lawyer of the Year by the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly.

Go to www.debtclear.com/cms/legalopinion.pdf and read David's
opinion as to the legal efficacy of the CMS program. We encourage
you to show this to your own attorney for a second opinion.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me at
the number below.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson
Debt Specialist
DebtClear

[CarpenterGirl]

No offense intended, but Mr. Grossack used a lot of conditional wording in that letter...i.e. could, should, etc. I think I expected much stronger wording from the person who had supposedly designed this entire process. Quite actually, the entire tone and language used in this document leads me to believe it was written in response to a request to evaluate the system after-the-fact. While he does give it a better than average chance of success....honestly, I wish I had seen this earlier in my decision making process.

Originally Posted by maglight

Here is another e mail, Guys CMS is for real!

Based on the response to my last email where I gave you a link to
the scam.com forum page about CMS and Brad Daley it is clear that
nothing is really clear at all. That's just the way it is with
certain areas of the law. And this is certainly one that is
controversial.

Those of you that went and read the forum may have come away really
wondering what the truth is. If you only read the first page or two
you are probably thinking I'm completely nuts for having pointed
you to the site.

The main question is whether or not the Court Mediation Services
(CMS) process is legal. The answer is a resounding "YES". The CMS
program is firmly based in the law and developed with a deep
understanding of the debt collection industry.

The founder and CEO of CMS, Bradford Daley, was a debt collector
for over 10 years, and has been a court mediator for over 7 years.
Brad developed the program in consult with CMS’s general counsel,
David Grossack, a well-known author and activist who was named one
of the state’s ten best lawyers by the Boston Herald and was
awarded Lawyer of the Year by the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly.

Go to www.debtclear.com/cms/legalopinion.pdf and read David's
opinion as to the legal efficacy of the CMS program. We encourage
you to show this to your own attorney for a second opinion.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me at
the number below.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson
Debt Specialist
DebtClear

[babyblue06]

Wonderful post! I think this is what some of the readers and clients needed to see. It gives case law, just like others has been asking for and clearly shows the benefit of the program. Thanks for the smile.

Originally Posted by maglight

Here is another e mail, Guys CMS is for real!

Based on the response to my last email where I gave you a link to
the scam.com forum page about CMS and Brad Daley it is clear that
nothing is really clear at all. That's just the way it is with
certain areas of the law. And this is certainly one that is
controversial.

Those of you that went and read the forum may have come away really
wondering what the truth is. If you only read the first page or two
you are probably thinking I'm completely nuts for having pointed
you to the site.

The main question is whether or not the Court Mediation Services
(CMS) process is legal. The answer is a resounding "YES". The CMS
program is firmly based in the law and developed with a deep
understanding of the debt collection industry.

The founder and CEO of CMS, Bradford Daley, was a debt collector
for over 10 years, and has been a court mediator for over 7 years.
Brad developed the program in consult with CMS’s general counsel,
David Grossack, a well-known author and activist who was named one
of the state’s ten best lawyers by the Boston Herald and was
awarded Lawyer of the Year by the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly.

Go to www.debtclear.com/cms/legalopinion.pdf and read David's
opinion as to the legal efficacy of the CMS program. We encourage
you to show this to your own attorney for a second opinion.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me at
the number below.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson
Debt Specialist
DebtClear

[Interested Party 01]

It is a great post, I'm sure all the naysayers will tear it apart, it's their job to do that but they cannot dispute the case laws that have been mentioned.

This truly doesn't mean that I (we) are in the clear, but it is certain that I (we) have a chance and that is all I'm asking for.

I will continue to have BLIND FAITH in the CMS process.

[babyblue06]

Originally Posted by CarpenterGirl

No offense intended, but Mr. Grossack used a lot of conditional wording in that letter...i.e. could, should, etc. I think I expected much stronger wording from the person who had supposedly designed this entire process. Quite actually, the entire tone and language used in this document leads me to believe it was written in response to a request to evaluate the system after-the-fact. While he does give it a better than average chance of success....honestly, I wish I had seen this earlier in my decision making process.

Hello CarpenterGirl. I hope all is going well with you and your family.

I guess I must be blind because I read, and re-read, and re-read the letter and I only found two "shoulds" and they are grammatically placed in the correct spot. I could not identify one place that "could" was used.

Also, is Mr. Grossack the individual that researched it for an entire year or was it someone else? I do not ever recall being told the name of the lawyer that did the foot work? I think Grossack was brought on the team after the fact.

I thought the letter made perfect sense and maybe I am misunderstanding your post. Please help clear things up for me. Thanks!

[CarpenterGirl]

Okay, rather than have to rewrite the letter since I cannot copy and paste from the original document, I used an example of conditional language...hence the i.e. While the actual words may have varied, they mean the same thing. I think he actually used "can" instead of something more affirmative such as does or will a few times plus the "in large part I am satisfied" at the end.
I was not trying to rip the document apart or anything...just kind of thought it was strange in light information I had regarding the program design. After all, I am aboard the train and have put my trust in the engineer...so it is not like I can simply jump off...that would hurt

As to the reason for wishing I had seen it sooner...I would've loved to have had time to research the case law citations prior to enrollment. Reading the case law that is actually behind this would have made me feel better...kind of like knowing that I was walking on 2" thick ice that could support me rather than worrying about falling through thin ice and drowning.

Oh, and everyone is fine here so far; thank you for asking. However, work is slowing and the people we work for have began "cutting" us (adjusting our pay downward after the work has been completed without prior notice), but hey, I guess it is take it or starve at this point

Originally Posted by babyblue06

Hello CarpenterGirl. I hope all is going well with you and your family.

I guess I must be blind because I read, and re-read, and re-read the letter and I only found two "shoulds" and they are grammatically placed in the correct spot. I could not identify one place that "could" was used.

Also, is Mr. Grossack the individual that researched it for an entire year or was it someone else? I do not ever recall being told the name of the lawyer that did the foot work? I think Grossack was brought on the team after the fact.

I thought the letter made perfect sense and maybe I am misunderstanding your post. Please help clear things up for me. Thanks!

[babyblue06]

Thanks for clarifying. I am glad things are going good with your family. I think that is terrible what people are doing with your pay check but I agree some money is better than none. Talk to you later.

Originally Posted by CarpenterGirl

Okay, rather than have to rewrite the letter since I cannot copy and paste from the original document, I used an example of conditional language...hence the i.e. While the actual words may have varied, they mean the same thing. I think he actually used "can" instead of something more affirmative such as does or will a few times plus the "in large part I am satisfied" at the end.
I was not trying to rip the document apart or anything...just kind of thought it was strange in light information I had regarding the program design. After all, I am aboard the train and have put my trust in the engineer...so it is not like I can simply jump off...that would hurt

As to the reason for wishing I had seen it sooner...I would've loved to have had time to research the case law citations prior to enrollment. Reading the case law that is actually behind this would have made me feel better...kind of like knowing that I was walking on 2" thick ice that could support me rather than worrying about falling through thin ice and drowning.

Oh, and everyone is fine here so far; thank you for asking. However, work is slowing and the people we work for have began "cutting" us (adjusting our pay downward after the work has been completed without prior notice), but hey, I guess it is take it or starve at this point

[nomaxim]

Welcome, CarpenterGirl.

Even thou the debate about the use of the English language is rather interesting, no insult intended. My English writing skills are rather sad, and I have a PhD.

Anyway, I did notice that no case numbers where given. I would like to look up the case's Mr. Gossack refers too. Even thou case's in Massachusetts are restricted, for online access, Federal cases are not.

Babyblue06,
Aren't you violating 'bensorensen's' previous post?

I'm just asking because no matter what anyone says, Mr. Daley's plan is at the least a scheme. Scheme's sometimes work and mostly don't. At least IMO.

[MetalTaker]

Oh my god Ponderer! Well Said! You nailed EVERY point!

It is hilarious how the other folks here have NOTHING to say to your post but the same old stuff without any facts.

Nice Job!

Originally Posted by Ponderer

I am posting this in a new thread too as this one has gotten quite long. I believe it is important for people doing searches to be able to get right to the meat rather than wading through what turned into a pom-pom and shilling session on this thread of over 700 posts with nowhere near enough cold ***** thrown on it to wake people up (though some have tried).
CMS is just another program in a long string of programs touted as a means to eliminate your debt through some loophole or process. The people who operate and promote this and, other programs, are preying on consumers who are stressed out and at the end of their financial rope. The successful mark is not thinking clearly and is often willing to cling to hope that is expertly delivered by sales reps. Think for a moment where you were at mentally when you filled out some form on the net for a consult and got a call introducing you to CMS. Frazzled is where. You would have to be to lend any credibility to some stranger calling you with a sympathetic sounding but slick pitch that when boiled down to its basic essence is as simple as “send me money and you will never have to pay your debt again”. To be certain there would have to be some emotionally appealing filler thrown in. I am sure some current event “banks are the bad guys, just watch the news” dialogue too. These are experienced people who will hit every nerve possible. They are nice sounding and patient for you to make a decision. They have to be. If they go for the money on the first call with a program like this you would have totally backed away. What they know is that times are tough for you and the prospect of not having to pay your debt back will start to sink in. In short order, for many of you, that carrot, the thought of not having to struggle anymore, for a mere few thousand dollars, paid to the order of slick sales person and Brad Daly, will begin to cloud your judgment. Critical thinking having been eliminated you will begin to convince yourself this will work. That’s all they have to do. Let you stew on the concept, loose off a little reality and you sell yourself. It’s successful enough to keep um at it from program to program.
From what I have been able to glean, CMS has only had recognizable interaction with consumers for something like the last 18 months. Claims of having been at this for 5+ years are a bit dubious in that there is nothing available to substantiate this. It is perhaps likely that Brad has had experience working with consumers on debt related issues that long or, maybe one could speculate that he has done his novation/assignment/torturous interference longer than 18 months. Whatever the case, Brad Daly and his CMS process existed in near obscurity until recently and only found momentum, I would posit, when a ready body of sales reps came on the scene to promote it. There has been some intense regulatory and civil action in the debt relief area in the last couple years and as is the norm, these sales people will float from one elimination scam to the next after the one they promote predictably falls apart or the cops put and end to it. It is likely Brad found traction this way.
Novation is nothing new to the world of debt elimination techniques. It was first offered to the public as one of the many methods of “send me money and never pay your debt again” by John Gliha in the late nineties. John even gave up on it. There is good case law on the process in California (perhaps as a result of John’s efforts) and elsewhere I am sure. Brad has gotten creative and thrown an assignment of debt into the mix along with terms that are sure to be breached and is hanging your future on his contract theory. It is an intriguing twist, I will admit. Many theories can be intriguing. Legal theories can be compelling. Bring this theory to an attorney with a dabbling of contract experience and they will likely speak to this intrigue. Take this intrigue to any level of critical thought and it will fall flat. Take the whole process in its entirety and it will be seen for what it is, Fraud.
I understand there is an attorney working for Brad on this. This is one attorney and, he is being paid by Brad which establishes bias. He has to pay the bills and put food on the table and Brad is helping him do that. Nonetheless this fact is bandied about to lend credibility to this scam, er, process. If you truly wish to establish whether this program is the fantasy it truly is, bring it to an attorney with a successful consumer practice for review. Why a consumer attorney? They are not bank or collection industry sympathizers and look for opportunities to go toe to toe with them. In most cases they have already needled through these unsecured contracts the creditors use and many can recite them by rote. There should prove a ready pool of them willing to debunk the latest elimination/monetary protestation scam as they also are called upon to clean up the mess the consumers find themselves in when the scammers are gone.
There have been other attorneys that function in debt elimination and have been shown to have been very wrong in their theorem and approaches. If you are seriously doing research pull up a search on Hess Kennedy, Consumer Law Center, Campos Chartered et al. Here is a recent example of a firm placed in receivership, an attorney disbarred and action taken by several states AG as well as civil action by banks. Here, things went very wrong but not before it ran its course for a couple years and affected over 6000 consumers nationwide. A very unique aspect of this case is that there are aggressive claw-back measures being pursued by those in a position to do so where the promoters are being pressed to return the monies and commissions they were paid (in some cases, to the tune of millions). Look for more of these claw-back measures and the establishment of complicity in the future.
How about Robert Lock and CCDN (Credit Collection Defense Network)? If memory serves Lock associated with the afore mentioned John Gliha who published “Winning the collection Game” in the mid nineties and later moved onto novation and I think a brief stint with arbitration claims that went badly. Lock and his promoters are all across the net for your reading pleasure. He and some of the people and businesses connected to him are merrily entrenched in the defense of a class action suit brought in Illinois. If they don’t settle the case it will likely prove to go badly for them. I am sure though, they were confident of their position on things just like Laura Hess above. They are after all attorneys, with all of the credibility that brought to the victims who decided to join the programs.
The point here is that an attorney does not necessarily lend credibility in the absolute. Perhaps Brad’s attorney is willing to risk his bar card with this theory. He may indeed. Someone may feel the need to respond to this and throw attorney credentials or write ups in defense of this scam but save it. Promoters of Lock have been doing that for years.
I do not think it a good use of time to bring out lack of complaints to the BBB and all that bunk. It’s a diversion to make existing and future marks feel good about their decision. Just like the current banking turmoil is used as a diversion. Or, fractional reserve banking, GAAP, banks cannot lend their own money etc… which have been used in years past and still today. This is all just a diversion used to lull you into the carrot trance I spoke of earlier, until enough time passes for the prospect of never paying your debt again, sinks in. SNAP OUT OF IT! WAKE UP!
The scam promoter will try to meet all of your objections with many assurances. One of those objections raised by a mark is how this affects their credit. The scam has to address this. Most people have spent their entire adult life conditioned to fret about it as it affects so many aspects of their lives. The answer is credit repair. Now we’re talking. This will all start to sink in quite nicely. Send money to Brad and the promoter and never pay my debt again and they are promising that my credit will be cleaned to boot and in a mere year or so. I will be back on my feet in no time and getting credit again. If you cannot see where this is going, you are not thinking clearly.
Brad is figuring parts of this out as he goes. This is evidenced by the fact that he was doing credit repair and suddenly he is not. Any self respecting debt guru knows how aggressive regulators are about going after credit repair companies. Not Brad. Suddenly though, he is now outsourcing all of his customers to Alexin for credit repair because he just figured out that he is violating the Credit Repair Organization Act. Posters on this site have suggested that Brad is paying Alexin to perform the credit repair that he promises you. Is this arms length away from him in enough a manner that he is protected from violation of the Act? Using a strict interpretation of it, not likely. Is Alexin, his choice to source you off to, performing their part in strict adherence to compliance? Find out. If not, why not and why would a guy telling you everything is legit that he’s doing, not care enough to check out if who he is schlepping you off to is legit. If he just figured that out, I wonder how long it will take him to figure out that he may be violating the debt pooling laws in WV or perhaps debt adjuster laws in several states. He is after all offering to adjust your debt… to nothing. This is only the light stuff. It gets heavier as we approach how he may be violating both state and federal UDAP laws (Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices). Search it up. Take google for a spin. Learn what it is I am talking about here and while you’re at it encourage Brad and his attorney to do the same. It gets still heavier but, more of that in a moment.
These things progress from what appears to be a solid plan in the beginning but then d*****e into changes that repeat time after time. Early participants had all the straight talk and nothing appeared to diverge. As all the predictable aspects of having defaulted on a debt take shape with an increasing number of consumers signed into the elimination scam, things start to change. They already are with Brad. He figured out the credit repair angle as discussed. Most expert debt elimination scammers know not to dabble with government backed debt like student loans. Not Brad. Look for that to stop being offered soon too. Claims of nobody having been sued will then lead to only very few get sued. The ACA and ABA have some pretty talented well paid legal talent. A new twist on an old scam may take a few extra months to strategize their legal approach when suing CMS customers. When these suits begin they will do so in earnest and the approach they take will be broadcast to their member attorneys around the country. They will treat these cases with aggression due to the scam nature of them all. When the CMS promoters start preaching and peddling asset protection, BEWARE, the scam has run its course and will quickly deteriorate from there.
Now, let’s get real and look at CMS in its entirety. You get contacted by a promoter and are sold on this process and send them money. They keep their cut and send the rest to Brad who then sends his new tortuously interfering contract which, you have been told up front by the promoter, means you do not have to pay that debt back. Brad and CMS own the debt and he is going to use this new contract he sends so that he won’t have to pay the debt back either. He is going to eliminate it. Everyone in this little triangle knows this up front and willingly chooses to participate. You, the promoter, and Brad have planned this out in advance. What I have just described to you is a conspiracy to commit fraud followed by the act of committing fraud. Let that sink in. The nice and sympathetic sounding man or woman who contacted you who is offering you an option to get out of debt, who’s true and only goal is for you to pay them money is blatantly inviting you to conspire to commit FRAUD! Throw in the claims and expectations that your credit will be repaired so that you can get credit shortly after committing fraud and this picture is crystal clear. These people are selling you an opportunity to commit a crime. This thing does not pass the smell test from 100 yards away for anyone applying logic to it.
It gets worse. Those of you going for the whole government backed student loan angle on the scam are conspiring to commit fraud against the United States government! Brad has probably not factored this one in. He will. Look for student loans to be removed from the fraud offering.
I talked about intriguing theories earlier. I just came up with one. Due to the recent banking turmoil the government was forced to take senior bond positions in many national banks. One could theorize that Brad and his promoters and customers have conspired to commit fraud against the U.S. without the student loan angle. See, I told you, many theories have intrigue.
For those of you reading this that are already involved, it is not as simple as “ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances”. You are justifying fraud with excuses. Naturally the excuses sound good to you. The scam sales person may have already planted some excuses in your head. “This is the only chance I have to avoid bankruptcy”, “The banks won’t work with me so this is what they deserve”, “I don’t have the money to pay so what else am I to do”, “it’s a gamble, but if it works…” Folks this is not some side bet at a poker table. This is, pure and simple, you being complicit to fraud.
Let’s move on to exposure. What is the likelihood, since this has been running for a verifiable 18 months, state regulators are already aware of it? Pretty good. How about the feds? Very good. Do you know how this stuff is treated by banks? Be assured that each one of the accounts that have been through CMS are in a neat little file at each institution for future use. These files and/or reports of their existence have assuredly already been sent off to the financial crimes and criminal fraud divisions of regulatory bodies like the OTS, FBI, FTC, Treasury and DOJ. These offices know now or, will soon know, all of you who are participating. Federal regulators are now, and have been for months actively engaged in operation “clean sweep” as it has been dubbed, with an extreme focus on the bad players and scammers in the debt relief industry. CMS is well within its crosshairs. Customers, promoters, and certainly Brad have exposed themselves to this scrutiny. Not good, not at all. Brad and the promoters will get what they have coming. You as a customer should immediately demand your money back, no matter the duration of your involvement. This will help show you were a victim. If the people you sent your money to are such stand up folks they would give you your money back right? If you told them you have doubts and shared with them this post they would refund you, right? Not likely. These people you trusted are not here to help you. They spent their cut of the money you sent already. Ask brad for the money back that he got. He likely won’t have it either and will probably say that he has performed as contracted so you are not entitled to your funds back. While it may not help to convince him to return your money, don’t hesitate to point out that he contracted with you to commit what you now know is fraud which leads to an inherent problem with that contract he is relying on. They will come off all soothing and say the guy who wrote this (me) works for the banks or collectors or runs some other scam that competes with Brad or other such garbage to calm you down and get you back on the carrot. They will say these and other things and, be wrong.
As you become more aware that you have been scammed into fraud, or that someone is trying to get you to engage in fraud, contact state and federal authorities and provide them with any details they request of you.
Anyone contacted by Brad or his reps having now read this who have been considering paying to enter this scam, send them this post and listen to their responses which will hopefully now sound ridiculous to you.
There will be posts to follow this one made by different types of people. The ones that will attempt to refute any of what I have spelled out clearly hear will be from the promoters (carrot pushers) and, perhaps from Brad Daly (the carrot king) or, sadly from current customers who swallowed all the carrots fed to them. Read these posts but, look at them for what they are, carrot puke. They will be posted in furtherance of a fraud.
If you are currently involved with this program or thinking about joining and have this circular logic/excuse running through your head “I don’t/didn’t have any other options” or “I don’t have the money to keep paying these debts so I took or, will take, the chance that this works”, STOP! You have to step away from the carrot or the fallacy that you have/can send these people money and never have to think about these debts again. Because what you are really saying is “I had no choice or other options and had to knowingly and willfully conspire to commit fraud”.
Your decision has or will boil down to nothing but this reality.

[Ponderer]

I will check back on this and the other thread from time to time.

As I posted in advance there would be additional shilling and copious amounts of carrot being spilled. In fact, I do suspect that after B-B-B Benny and his extra big, extra bold "Dont come around her no more" post, His key board is stained orange.

I do see the other posts which are just as I suspected they would be...

Please do provide case citations if you wish to be credible whatsoever. Put up, or take your ball and go home like Benny.

I have already recommended you take this program to an attorney just be sure to print out my longer post and bring it along.

Those of you with motivation of a civic bent should feel free to copy it to other boards as well.

The entire premise of this program is a fraud.

I must say a Beattles song has popped up since I posted the other day. The lyric has not gotten further than the chorus though and is using current urban vernacular.

Sung to "here comes the sun", and all you little fraudsters join in now-

Here comes 5-0 do-do-do-do
Here comes 5-0 and I say
I've been had

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Ponderer

I will check back on this and the other thread from time to time.

As I posted in advance there would be additional shilling and copious amounts of carrot being spilled. In fact, I do suspect that after B-B-B Benny and his extra big, extra bold "Dont come around her no more" post, His key board is stained orange.

I do see the other posts which are just as I suspected they would be...

Please do provide case citations if you wish to be credible whatsoever. Put up, or take your ball and go home like Benny.

I have already recommended you take this program to an attorney just be sure to print out my longer post and bring it along.

Those of you with motivation of a civic bent should feel free to copy it to other boards as well.

The entire premise of this program is a fraud.

I must say a Beattles song has popped up since I posted the other day. The lyric has not gotten further than the chorus though and is using current urban vernacular.

Sung to "here comes the sun", and all you little fraudsters join in now-

Here comes 5-0 do-do-do-do
Here comes 5-0 and I say
I've been had

Yep sir! I think is time to track down all the post on forums by Brads cronies and since we have your permission copy and paste that stellar post.

[Ponderer]

Carpenter,
Having had time to ponder your post something occured to me. The attorney opinion being referenced here, according to your post, has you questioning the representations of the programs design initially made to you.

Perhaps the attorney does not know to the extent his name is being used in the promotion of this program. Come to think of it, he may not even know that it is being marketed as:

Customer, promoter, Brad coming together, all with a clear understanding upfront that none of the three from the outset had any intention of the creditor getting paid.

You may wish to contact him and outline how this thing was sold to you.

If you are inclined to do so, please come back and post here with your perception of things afterwards.

Originally Posted by CarpenterGirl

Okay, rather than have to rewrite the letter since I cannot copy and paste from the original document, I used an example of conditional language...hence the i.e. While the actual words may have varied, they mean the same thing. I think he actually used "can" instead of something more affirmative such as does or will a few times plus the "in large part I am satisfied" at the end.
I was not trying to rip the document apart or anything...just kind of thought it was strange in light information I had regarding the program design. After all, I am aboard the train and have put my trust in the engineer...so it is not like I can simply jump off...that would hurt

As to the reason for wishing I had seen it sooner...I would've loved to have had time to research the case law citations prior to enrollment. Reading the case law that is actually behind this would have made me feel better...kind of like knowing that I was walking on 2" thick ice that could support me rather than worrying about falling through thin ice and drowning.

Oh, and everyone is fine here so far; thank you for asking. However, work is slowing and the people we work for have began "cutting" us (adjusting our pay downward after the work has been completed without prior notice), but hey, I guess it is take it or starve at this point

[Ponderer]

Uhhmm...
Is this some kind of joke?

I just saw and read the attachment in maglight's post above.

Is the entire CMS program built around accord/novation having assisted in denial of motion for summary judgment in a couple collection cases where defendants filed BK before the cases could be advanced?

If I were you people I would be livid.

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Ponderer

Uhhmm...
Is this some kind of joke?

I just saw and read the attachment in maglight's post above.

Is the entire CMS program built around accord/novation having assisted in denial of motion for summary judgment in a couple collection cases where defendants filed BK before the cases could be advanced?

If I were you people I would be livid.

Bah, ignorance of the law, ignorance of the KAKA scam they got into will keep them from seeing the light.

The sad part is they clamor their savior as a hero blindly, not recognizing that the bull crap information referenced only proved our point. When push comes to shove, Bradley did not buy your debt and you are stuck fending for yourself when creditors sue you. It is kind of funny to see the cheerleaders talk as if what was posted had any merit other than to prove we are right. You gave someone money for a program that does not work and does not protect anyone.

[Hope80]

You guys having fun?

Oh BTW - one of the posters earlier in the thread said they did call Grossack's office and he confirmed that he knew everything about Brad's program and was aware of his involvement. Not sure which page it was on but I'm sure you can go find it. I couldn't be arsed to go look for it.

[Ponderer]

Originally Posted by Hope80

You guys having fun?

Oh BTW - one of the posters earlier in the thread said they did call Grossack's office and he confirmed that he knew everything about Brad's program and was aware of his involvement. Not sure which page it was on but I'm sure you can go find it. I couldn't be arsed to go look for it.

Hey Hope,

Could I trouble you to be a bit more clear in your above post. The way that it reads as posted would appear to be saying:
"Attorney knows all about CMS program and how 3 seperate parties came together and, with preplanned intent, conspired to never pay the creditors."

Is that what your saying here? While mouth heavily grinding on a carrot?

Carpenter was quite right when she confessed some confusion since that is not what Maglights attachment reads like.

Are you certain the prior poster wasnt just a shill promoter?

Perhaps you should call this attorney yourself to verify.

Let us know how that conversation goes too, would ya?

[maglight]

Hi guys, I am not a promotor for CMS by far, I am in the program myself, and I simply just forwarded some info that my CMS rep Dave had sent to me..I have no clue as to this legal stuff, but I can tell you this, 7 months Feb 17th I have been in this program and I more scared now than ever, I simply could not afford the payment on my account anylonger, my minimum payment was 350.00 per month and without notice it jumped to 1004.00 per month and Boa would not work with me at all on a payment plan...the crazy thing is, this debt was not even mine, yes my name but it was my freaking ex wifes that she racked up on her authorized card and stuck me with in a divorce...it sucks man it really does...i tried hard to pay the payments for as long as i could.. I worked with Bank of America the best I could..In fact they Rejected me a 5 year pay back plan that would have been like 500.00 per month and they said no, they turned me down and would not work with me at all, and this is when the account was in good standings with no late pays....arrgggg it sucks man, but seriously I am not a promotor, I just enrolled in the program a while back, and now I am here with everyone else....Thanks and God Bless!

[gw4n3328]

maglight,
For the sake of those of us who started the program after you, it would really be great if you would expand on your attitude about the progam and possibly indicate any problems you are encountering.Based on CMS estimates you should be just working on cleaning up your credit report by now????? I have been in the program 4 months and although I maintain good communications with my agent nothing earth shaking has happened (either positive or negative) Based on several persons I have talked with who have completed the process I am expecting this to take a few more months before I will see the results. Obviously if you are experiencing any REAL problem that is what this site is supposed to be here for. Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by gw4n3328

maglight,
For the sake of those of us who started the program after you, it would really be great if you would expand on your attitude about the progam and possibly indicate any problems you are encountering.Based on CMS estimates you should be just working on cleaning up your credit report by now????? I have been in the program 4 months and although I maintain good communications with my agent nothing earth shaking has happened (either positive or negative) Based on several persons I have talked with who have completed the process I am expecting this to take a few more months before I will see the results. Obviously if you are experiencing any REAL problem that is what this site is supposed to be here for. Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.

You are not trying to convert this thread into a happy felling fussy ***** cooler conversation thread are you? Got to Brads site to discuss the great program. Unless you are going to refute the fact that this system is a scam then you should not be posting here.

By the way, I am starting to get annoyed at the "carrot eaters" as my new found friend calls them. Stop relying on others to do the work for you, make calls, make inquiries. When the hammer falls, the old "someone else told me that this was 100 percent legal somewhere on this post" will not cut it. This is your financial future here, stop being so friking lazy. Pick up the dam phone and start calling people.

The attorney in question wil denny his involvement to the extent brad is selling the program, his legal license is now on the balance. He is having people commit fraud, neither brad or anyone on the program intends to pay creditors from the time you sign the dotted line, sure a couple of payments will go trough with his KAKA novation skeem. But other than that, creditors will bee left to hang in the wind.

Do they deserve that? Probably, but you will be opening yourself to so serious legal problems once the creditors mark you as a Brad Daley fraudster. You think they will not communicate amongs themselves to hang you?

[capecodgal]

Originally Posted by Ponderer

I am posting this in a new thread too as this one has gotten quite long. I believe it is important for people doing searches to be able to get right to the meat rather than wading through what turned into a pom-pom and shilling session on this thread of over 700 posts with nowhere near enough cold ***** thrown on it to wake people up (though some have tried).
CMS is just another program in a long string of programs touted as a means to eliminate your debt through some loophole or process. The people who operate and promote this and, other programs, are preying on consumers who are stressed out and at the end of their financial rope. The successful mark is not thinking clearly and is often willing to cling to hope that is expertly delivered by sales reps. Think for a moment where you were at mentally when you filled out some form on the net for a consult and got a call introducing you to CMS. Frazzled is where. You would have to be to lend any credibility to some stranger calling you with a sympathetic sounding but slick pitch that when boiled down to its basic essence is as simple as “send me money and you will never have to pay your debt again”. To be certain there would have to be some emotionally appealing filler thrown in. I am sure some current event “banks are the bad guys, just watch the news” dialogue too. These are experienced people who will hit every nerve possible. They are nice sounding and patient for you to make a decision. They have to be. If they go for the money on the first call with a program like this you would have totally backed away. What they know is that times are tough for you and the prospect of not having to pay your debt back will start to sink in. In short order, for many of you, that carrot, the thought of not having to struggle anymore, for a mere few thousand dollars, paid to the order of slick sales person and Brad Daly, will begin to cloud your judgment. Critical thinking having been eliminated you will begin to convince yourself this will work. That’s all they have to do. Let you stew on the concept, loose off a little reality and you sell yourself. It’s successful enough to keep um at it from program to program.
From what I have been able to glean, CMS has only had recognizable interaction with consumers for something like the last 18 months. Claims of having been at this for 5+ years are a bit dubious in that there is nothing available to substantiate this. It is perhaps likely that Brad has had experience working with consumers on debt related issues that long or, maybe one could speculate that he has done his novation/assignment/torturous interference longer than 18 months. Whatever the case, Brad Daly and his CMS process existed in near obscurity until recently and only found momentum, I would posit, when a ready body of sales reps came on the scene to promote it. There has been some intense regulatory and civil action in the debt relief area in the last couple years and as is the norm, these sales people will float from one elimination scam to the next after the one they promote predictably falls apart or the cops put and end to it. It is likely Brad found traction this way.
Novation is nothing new to the world of debt elimination techniques. It was first offered to the public as one of the many methods of “send me money and never pay your debt again” by John Gliha in the late nineties. John even gave up on it. There is good case law on the process in California (perhaps as a result of John’s efforts) and elsewhere I am sure. Brad has gotten creative and thrown an assignment of debt into the mix along with terms that are sure to be breached and is hanging your future on his contract theory. It is an intriguing twist, I will admit. Many theories can be intriguing. Legal theories can be compelling. Bring this theory to an attorney with a dabbling of contract experience and they will likely speak to this intrigue. Take this intrigue to any level of critical thought and it will fall flat. Take the whole process in its entirety and it will be seen for what it is, Fraud.
I understand there is an attorney working for Brad on this. This is one attorney and, he is being paid by Brad which establishes bias. He has to pay the bills and put food on the table and Brad is helping him do that. Nonetheless this fact is bandied about to lend credibility to this scam, er, process. If you truly wish to establish whether this program is the fantasy it truly is, bring it to an attorney with a successful consumer practice for review. Why a consumer attorney? They are not bank or collection industry sympathizers and look for opportunities to go toe to toe with them. In most cases they have already needled through these unsecured contracts the creditors use and many can recite them by rote. There should prove a ready pool of them willing to debunk the latest elimination/monetary protestation scam as they also are called upon to clean up the mess the consumers find themselves in when the scammers are gone.
There have been other attorneys that function in debt elimination and have been shown to have been very wrong in their theorem and approaches. If you are seriously doing research pull up a search on Hess Kennedy, Consumer Law Center, Campos Chartered et al. Here is a recent example of a firm placed in receivership, an attorney disbarred and action taken by several states AG as well as civil action by banks. Here, things went very wrong but not before it ran its course for a couple years and affected over 6000 consumers nationwide. A very unique aspect of this case is that there are aggressive claw-back measures being pursued by those in a position to do so where the promoters are being pressed to return the monies and commissions they were paid (in some cases, to the tune of millions). Look for more of these claw-back measures and the establishment of complicity in the future.
How about Robert Lock and CCDN (Credit Collection Defense Network)? If memory serves Lock associated with the afore mentioned John Gliha who published “Winning the collection Game” in the mid nineties and later moved onto novation and I think a brief stint with arbitration claims that went badly. Lock and his promoters are all across the net for your reading pleasure. He and some of the people and businesses connected to him are merrily entrenched in the defense of a class action suit brought in Illinois. If they don’t settle the case it will likely prove to go badly for them. I am sure though, they were confident of their position on things just like Laura Hess above. They are after all attorneys, with all of the credibility that brought to the victims who decided to join the programs.
The point here is that an attorney does not necessarily lend credibility in the absolute. Perhaps Brad’s attorney is willing to risk his bar card with this theory. He may indeed. Someone may feel the need to respond to this and throw attorney credentials or write ups in defense of this scam but save it. Promoters of Lock have been doing that for years.
I do not think it a good use of time to bring out lack of complaints to the BBB and all that bunk. It’s a diversion to make existing and future marks feel good about their decision. Just like the current banking turmoil is used as a diversion. Or, fractional reserve banking, GAAP, banks cannot lend their own money etc… which have been used in years past and still today. This is all just a diversion used to lull you into the carrot trance I spoke of earlier, until enough time passes for the prospect of never paying your debt again, sinks in. SNAP OUT OF IT! WAKE UP!
The scam promoter will try to meet all of your objections with many assurances. One of those objections raised by a mark is how this affects their credit. The scam has to address this. Most people have spent their entire adult life conditioned to fret about it as it affects so many aspects of their lives. The answer is credit repair. Now we’re talking. This will all start to sink in quite nicely. Send money to Brad and the promoter and never pay my debt again and they are promising that my credit will be cleaned to boot and in a mere year or so. I will be back on my feet in no time and getting credit again. If you cannot see where this is going, you are not thinking clearly.
Brad is figuring parts of this out as he goes. This is evidenced by the fact that he was doing credit repair and suddenly he is not. Any self respecting debt guru knows how aggressive regulators are about going after credit repair companies. Not Brad. Suddenly though, he is now outsourcing all of his customers to Alexin for credit repair because he just figured out that he is violating the Credit Repair Organization Act. Posters on this site have suggested that Brad is paying Alexin to perform the credit repair that he promises you. Is this arms length away from him in enough a manner that he is protected from violation of the Act? Using a strict interpretation of it, not likely. Is Alexin, his choice to source you off to, performing their part in strict adherence to compliance? Find out. If not, why not and why would a guy telling you everything is legit that he’s doing, not care enough to check out if who he is schlepping you off to is legit. If he just figured that out, I wonder how long it will take him to figure out that he may be violating the debt pooling laws in WV or perhaps debt adjuster laws in several states. He is after all offering to adjust your debt… to nothing. This is only the light stuff. It gets heavier as we approach how he may be violating both state and federal UDAP laws (Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices). Search it up. Take google for a spin. Learn what it is I am talking about here and while you’re at it encourage Brad and his attorney to do the same. It gets still heavier but, more of that in a moment.
These things progress from what appears to be a solid plan in the beginning but then d*****e into changes that repeat time after time. Early participants had all the straight talk and nothing appeared to diverge. As all the predictable aspects of having defaulted on a debt take shape with an increasing number of consumers signed into the elimination scam, things start to change. They already are with Brad. He figured out the credit repair angle as discussed. Most expert debt elimination scammers know not to dabble with government backed debt like student loans. Not Brad. Look for that to stop being offered soon too. Claims of nobody having been sued will then lead to only very few get sued. The ACA and ABA have some pretty talented well paid legal talent. A new twist on an old scam may take a few extra months to strategize their legal approach when suing CMS customers. When these suits begin they will do so in earnest and the approach they take will be broadcast to their member attorneys around the country. They will treat these cases with aggression due to the scam nature of them all. When the CMS promoters start preaching and peddling asset protection, BEWARE, the scam has run its course and will quickly deteriorate from there.
Now, let’s get real and look at CMS in its entirety. You get contacted by a promoter and are sold on this process and send them money. They keep their cut and send the rest to Brad who then sends his new tortuously interfering contract which, you have been told up front by the promoter, means you do not have to pay that debt back. Brad and CMS own the debt and he is going to use this new contract he sends so that he won’t have to pay the debt back either. He is going to eliminate it. Everyone in this little triangle knows this up front and willingly chooses to participate. You, the promoter, and Brad have planned this out in advance. What I have just described to you is a conspiracy to commit fraud followed by the act of committing fraud. Let that sink in. The nice and sympathetic sounding man or woman who contacted you who is offering you an option to get out of debt, who’s true and only goal is for you to pay them money is blatantly inviting you to conspire to commit FRAUD! Throw in the claims and expectations that your credit will be repaired so that you can get credit shortly after committing fraud and this picture is crystal clear. These people are selling you an opportunity to commit a crime. This thing does not pass the smell test from 100 yards away for anyone applying logic to it.
It gets worse. Those of you going for the whole government backed student loan angle on the scam are conspiring to commit fraud against the United States government! Brad has probably not factored this one in. He will. Look for student loans to be removed from the fraud offering.
I talked about intriguing theories earlier. I just came up with one. Due to the recent banking turmoil the government was forced to take senior bond positions in many national banks. One could theorize that Brad and his promoters and customers have conspired to commit fraud against the U.S. without the student loan angle. See, I told you, many theories have intrigue.
For those of you reading this that are already involved, it is not as simple as “ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances”. You are justifying fraud with excuses. Naturally the excuses sound good to you. The scam sales person may have already planted some excuses in your head. “This is the only chance I have to avoid bankruptcy”, “The banks won’t work with me so this is what they deserve”, “I don’t have the money to pay so what else am I to do”, “it’s a gamble, but if it works…” Folks this is not some side bet at a poker table. This is, pure and simple, you being complicit to fraud.
Let’s move on to exposure. What is the likelihood, since this has been running for a verifiable 18 months, state regulators are already aware of it? Pretty good. How about the feds? Very good. Do you know how this stuff is treated by banks? Be assured that each one of the accounts that have been through CMS are in a neat little file at each institution for future use. These files and/or reports of their existence have assuredly already been sent off to the financial crimes and criminal fraud divisions of regulatory bodies like the OTS, FBI, FTC, Treasury and DOJ. These offices know now or, will soon know, all of you who are participating. Federal regulators are now, and have been for months actively engaged in operation “clean sweep” as it has been dubbed, with an extreme focus on the bad players and scammers in the debt relief industry. CMS is well within its crosshairs. Customers, promoters, and certainly Brad have exposed themselves to this scrutiny. Not good, not at all. Brad and the promoters will get what they have coming. You as a customer should immediately demand your money back, no matter the duration of your involvement. This will help show you were a victim. If the people you sent your money to are such stand up folks they would give you your money back right? If you told them you have doubts and shared with them this post they would refund you, right? Not likely. These people you trusted are not here to help you. They spent their cut of the money you sent already. Ask brad for the money back that he got. He likely won’t have it either and will probably say that he has performed as contracted so you are not entitled to your funds back. While it may not help to convince him to return your money, don’t hesitate to point out that he contracted with you to commit what you now know is fraud which leads to an inherent problem with that contract he is relying on. They will come off all soothing and say the guy who wrote this (me) works for the banks or collectors or runs some other scam that competes with Brad or other such garbage to calm you down and get you back on the carrot. They will say these and other things and, be wrong.
As you become more aware that you have been scammed into fraud, or that someone is trying to get you to engage in fraud, contact state and federal authorities and provide them with any details they request of you.
Anyone contacted by Brad or his reps having now read this who have been considering paying to enter this scam, send them this post and listen to their responses which will hopefully now sound ridiculous to you.
There will be posts to follow this one made by different types of people. The ones that will attempt to refute any of what I have spelled out clearly hear will be from the promoters (carrot pushers) and, perhaps from Brad Daly (the carrot king) or, sadly from current customers who swallowed all the carrots fed to them. Read these posts but, look at them for what they are, carrot puke. They will be posted in furtherance of a fraud.
If you are currently involved with this program or thinking about joining and have this circular logic/excuse running through your head “I don’t/didn’t have any other options” or “I don’t have the money to keep paying these debts so I took or, will take, the chance that this works”, STOP! You have to step away from the carrot or the fallacy that you have/can send these people money and never have to think about these debts again. Because what you are really saying is “I had no choice or other options and had to knowingly and willfully conspire to commit fraud”.
Your decision has or will boil down to nothing but this reality.

This is wonderfully thought out, cogent, and well-written post. It must have taken some time to compose.

A few thoughts.

You say that "CMS is well within [investigators'] crosshairs." Would you please tell us how you know this?

When I first talked to a CMS rep, that it was fraud was my first thought. Well, my second one, actually, right after "how could I possibly come up with $4,000?"

I don't know if you've ever talked to a rep, but there is also some distraction in the conversation. There's monetary theory, and economic theory, and so on [watch as my fingers never leave the ends of my hands]. The rep I spoke to subscribes to the theory that there is no such thing as money because you create it with a signature on a loan application, etc., etc. While that's all well and good for a discussion while sitting around with friends, it's really beside the point because you can't use it in a brief to a court - not by a long shot. [I also thinks it's bunk, but that's another story]. Anyhow, it seemed to me to be designed to put get me thinking that credit, finances, money, and debt are all a huge illusion and therefore it's right and proper that I wouldn't pay.

So, I knew after the first phone call that I would be committing fraud if it worked. That didn't stop me, necessarily, from considering it. The fraud does have legal cover of a sort. According to the reps, Brad Daley is willing and able to pay the $10 minimum payments to the creditors forever if they won't discharge the debt. I believe that corporations make money in all sorts of ethically shady ways. They stay within the letter of the law and get away with it. Knowing that, it's possible that the CMS method could work and not be technically fraudulent.

Thing is, the CMS novation has never been ruled on in a court of law. Because laws can have two parts, legislation and adjudication, no one really knows whether or not the novation is sufficient legal cover.

The thing that had me most worried, after committing fraud, was the contract. The bulk of it discharges from Brad Daley/ CMS all responsibility from whatever follows from the arrangement with him. The debtor agrees to hold him harmless. Uhhh, errrr . . . what! Yes, he has no liability and further, he offers no warranties or guarantees about the service.

[capecodgal]

I posted a few pages back that I was considering CMS to discharge my student loan debt.

I've decided, for a variety of reasons, to avail myself instead of a government-created method of canceling the debt, which now stands at $117K.

From the Student Loan Borrower Assistance website:

More information here SLBA

PUBLIC SERVICE CANCELLATION

This new cancellation program is available to borrowers that work in public service jobs for ten years and repay their loans through an eligible repayment plan. Any remaining balance is then canceled after the ten years of service is completed. This program will only benefit borrowers who still owe money on federal loans after ten years of public service employment. You are most likely to reach this point if your income is low relative to your debt and if you qualify for reduced payments under IBR or income contingent repayment at any time during the ten years.

What is a “public service job”?

Jobs with federal, state, local or tribal government organizations, public child or family service agencies, 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations, or tribal colleges or universities should be considered “public service jobs.” Government employers include the military and public schools and colleges. Time spent serving in a full-time Americorps or Peace Corps position will also count toward the ten year repayment requirement.

I'm working on getting a job at our local hospital, which is non-profit, and on getting a job with a town.
Either job will be worth several times its weight in gold to me.

Have any of the student loan debtors thought about doing something like this?

[shak4u]

Originally Posted by Judge Roy Bean

Two places - one when you conspire with another party to defraud a financial institution and two when either party uses the mail in the attempt.

And it doesn't matter if it works, or doesn't work. The conspiracy itself is enough to take the evidence to a grand jury.

The Honorable Judge Roy Bean
http://www.loansharks.blogspot.com

So you're saying when the Credit Card Companies increased my wife's 7.9% interest to 29.9% having a credit score of 786 and never having been late or missed a payment, and they supposedly sent these changes to her hidden in a 3 page, 2 sided legalize document that no ordinary person could ever understand, and hidden in the middle of those pages are those changes, and they send it by regular mail and she says she never received it or saw it, and now her interest is at 29% and they refuse to lower it saying times are tough. Are you saying that the Credit Card companies and banks are not in a conspiracy to enslave us to them the rest of our lives, but are wonderful, ethical, people? It's funny how they are the only one's that can change a contract without your consent to 29%, 39% and higher while you and I would be thrown in jail for usury and loan sharking. Is this what you are saying? The whole Credit Card industry are the real scammers. I think they are the ones' who have defrauded the American people and have used the US mail to do so.Wait until we start paying for the 900 billion. Probably go to 50% interest.

[NotTheBinky]

Originally Posted by shak4u

So you're saying when the Credit Card Companies increased my wife's 7.9% interest to 29.9% having a credit score of 786 and never having been late or missed a payment, and they supposedly sent these changes to her hidden in a 3 page, 2 sided legalize document that no ordinary person could ever understand, and hidden in the middle of those pages are those changes, and they send it by regular mail and she says she never received it or saw it, and now her interest is at 29% and they refuse to lower it saying times are tough. Are you saying that the Credit Card companies and banks are not in a conspiracy to enslave us to them the rest of our lives, but are wonderful, ethical, people? It's funny how they are the only one's that can change a contract without your consent to 29%, 39% and higher while you and I would be thrown in jail for usury and loan sharking. Is this what you are saying? The whole Credit Card industry are the real scammers. I think they are the ones' who have defrauded the American people and have used the US mail to do so.Wait until we start paying for the 900 billion. Probably go to 50% interest.

So how the banks operate somehow makes it ok for a private individual con you into conspiring to screw the card company out of 4k? I might see the logic if the consumer got something out of it, but the 4k goes to Brad and his "associates", and the debt piles onto the consumer.

This logic is silly. What part of this don't you understand? When this scheme fails, you are screwed. If the CC company proves fraud, you won't even be able to discharge the debt in a BK. Try dealing with a judgment, garnishment, and liens.

Did anyone force your wife to run up credit card debt? Just because you have available credit doesn't mean you should use it. I am in the same boat, rates got jacked and limits reduced. I'll sell some property and pay them off. After that, I will keep a couple of cards for emergencies. Kind of hard to rent a car, hotel room, or buy a plane ticket without one.

I am at least willing to admit I had something to do with the debt and not blame it on someone else or conspire to commit fraud to get out from under it.