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  #55  
Old 01-05-2008, 12:50 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
Atheists hold on to their narrow veiw of life and wont change their beliefs no matter what the evidence.
You, and virtually all religious people have yet to provide actual evidence. You just keep claiming that religious opinion is evidence.
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  #56  
Old 01-05-2008, 12:59 PM
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Dawud Dawud is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Godeskian View Post
You just keep claiming that religious opinion is evidence.
I never claimed any such thing.

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  #57  
Old 01-05-2008, 01:03 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
I never claimed any such thing.
snort. Okay then, if you say so. I'm far to lazy to search through discussions you and i have both participated in for evidence.

Let me restate then..

Just so we're clear.

NO religious person has ever provided evidence for the existence of God. Ever. In any country. At any point in history.

Feel free to try and 'prove' otherwise if you feel my statement is in error.
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  #58  
Old 01-05-2008, 01:25 PM
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
You are sort of right there but i must simply point out that evolution doesn't address the existence of life but rather the variety of it. The theory of Evolution wouldn't be affected at all if it was shown that a god poofed the first living organism. Its just the best model that we have to explain what we observe in nature
Understood

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Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Um no, morality is not something inherent in humans. Morality is a set of philosophies or a code of conduct that occurs as a result of the culture and history of the group of people involved. Think about other people in history and youll see that morality for them is different from us
Agreed. I explained this same thing in my last post to you in the "Sin & Salvation" thread, and on the same token, I can think of many people in history whose behavior exceeded the present average of morality, which is in effect, proof that it is in fact cultural.

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Evolution does tell us however what might be seen as moral. If you read the details of game theory, its not hard to see why people tend to do good things
I'll have to read that, but presently what I am hearing is that historical accounts of learned behavior shows us what might be seen as morale. A society agrees upon what morality is good & what is not. You shoot a man for nothing, he dies. That is seen by us as immoral. A Cannibal spears a man, he dies, he provides the village's meal. That is not seen as immoral.

My point again is, the best guideline for learning what benefits mankind best is in the gospels of Jesus.

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Huh? please expand on that and tell me what does it have to do with evolution?
"Evolvement" of man. A term that I use to describe the ongoing progression of man. Anything that has to do with man, whether he is a product of evolution or creation or both is allegedly a ongoing development, in which learned behavior plays a very important part of.

My point was that the other person I was responding to stated that evolution in fact does not address morality and I was pointing out that the teachings of Jesus does.
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  #59  
Old 01-05-2008, 01:27 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

For some basics on game theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
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  #60  
Old 01-05-2008, 01:43 PM
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Godeskian View Post
NO religious person has ever provided evidence for the existence of God. Ever. In any country. At any point in history.
Easy.

The Torah. The Gospels. The Quran. The Bhagavad Gita

They are all evidence of the will and morality that God wants man to adhere to.

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  #61  
Old 01-05-2008, 01:48 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
Easy.

The Torah. The Gospels. The Quran. The Bhagavad Gita

They are all evidence of the will and morality that God wants man to adhere to.
They aren't evidence period. They are religious opinion pretending to be fact. Certainly they are not independantly verifiable evidence for the existence of God.
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  #62  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:02 PM
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Godeskian View Post
They aren't evidence period. They are religious opinion pretending to be fact. Certainly they are not independantly verifiable evidence for the existence of God.
They are physical books that you can hold in your hand.

There will never be enough evidence to ever satisfy any atheist, so I won't even try.

Atheism is a closed mental system.

Saddly, atheists never experiance the fullness of the human condition.

They are handicapped people who have no idea of their disability.

Like an autistic child who isn't aware there is a problem.

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  #63  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:05 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
They are physical books that you can hold in your hand.
Which doesn't adress their content. I can print a pamphlet talking about the flying spaghetti monster, but that doesn't make it evidence of anything.

Quote:
There will never be enough evidence to ever satisfy any atheist, so I won't even try.
And the cowardly backtrack. I've asked you to show me evidence, all you can do is point to the various religions own holy books, and then throw up your hands and claim it's evidence.

This is why no religious person has ever managed to find evidence. Because there isn't any. Only religious tomes designed to spread religion masquarading as fact.

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Atheism is a closed mental system.
Don't you wish.

Quote:
Saddly, atheists never experiance the fullness of the human condition.
That's probably true, but then neither do religious people. Neither does anyone for that matter, there are always experiences we lack.

Quote:
They are handicapped people who have no idea of their disability.

Like an autistic child who isn't aware there is a problem.
And the ad hominem attacks begin.

So much for providing evidence.
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  #64  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:27 PM
coosjoaquin coosjoaquin is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by wiseroption View Post
Agreed. I explained this same thing in my last post to you in the "Sin & Salvation" thread, and on the same token, I can think of many people in history whose behavior exceeded the present average of morality, which is in effect, proof that it is in fact cultural.
The problem is that if morality is relative then we can only judge peoples behaviour in relationsip to our morals. I believe that the word zeitgeist better describes my thoughts on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseroption View Post
I'll have to read that, but presently what I am hearing is that historical accounts of learned behavior shows us what might be seen as morale. A society agrees upon what morality is good & what is not. You shoot a man for nothing, he dies. That is seen by us as immoral. A Cannibal spears a man, he dies, he provides the village's meal. That is not seen as immoral.
:sunglasses: What you've shown here is that morality is relative and thus depends on the time and place in history

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Originally Posted by wiseroption View Post
My point again is, the best guideline for learning what benefits mankind best is in the gospels of Jesus.
well jesus was quite the do-gooder. I very much doubt that he was divine but i can appreciate someone people can look up to

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseroption View Post
"Evolvement" of man. A term that I use to describe the ongoing progression of man. Anything that has to do with man, whether he is a product of evolution or creation or both is allegedly a ongoing development, in which learned behavior plays a very important part of.

My point was that the other person I was responding to stated that evolution in fact does not address morality and I was pointing out that the teachings of Jesus does.
I see now, difference is that you used the word Evolution in a different context which confused me a bit.

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  #65  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:40 PM
coosjoaquin coosjoaquin is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
They are physical books that you can hold in your hand.
That shows nothing but the fact that the book was made by someone.

harry potter books exist and you can hold them in your hands but they give 0 evidence for the existence of wizards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
There will never be enough evidence to ever satisfy any atheist, so I won't even try.


Atheism is a closed mental system.
this is just wrong, all we ask is for a shred of objective evidence. None of which has been shown to exist. a god may exist but if it doesn't stand to the scrutiny that scientific principles are subject to then it is just philosophy

You just say this as an excuse not to show everyone that you have nothing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
Saddly, atheists never experiance the fullness of the human condition.

They are handicapped people who have no idea of their disability.

Like an autistic child who isn't aware there is a problem.
Sigh, where did you people get the idea that insults make your points better grounded? If Atheists, Agnostics, Deist and the secular don't experience all that greatness, wouldn't test show that religious people are happier on average than the heathens?

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  #66  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:45 PM
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Dawud Dawud is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Sigh, where did you people get the idea that insults make your points better grounded?
No insult was intended or implied. Just an observation.

Are all atheists this thin skinned?

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  #67  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:47 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
No insult was intended or implied. Just an observation.
Bull****. Calling someone a handicapped autist is an insult plain and simple, you're just not used to being called on it.
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  #68  
Old 01-05-2008, 02:48 PM
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Dawud Dawud is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
harry potter books exist and you can hold them in your hands but they give 0 evidence for the existence of wizards

I don't recall the author claiming divine revelation for the Harry Potter books?

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  #69  
Old 01-05-2008, 03:39 PM
coosjoaquin coosjoaquin is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
No insult was intended or implied. Just an observation.

Are all atheists this thin skinned?
lol, what a wad of bullsh!t that is. Oh well, no point convincing me of it, the message is out for all the lurkers/posters to see and comment

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  #70  
Old 01-05-2008, 03:42 PM
coosjoaquin coosjoaquin is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
I don't recall the author claiming divine revelation for the Harry Potter books?
Sigh, tell me again why claiming divinity would make it so?

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  #71  
Old 01-05-2008, 04:36 PM
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kazza kazza is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Dawud View Post
I don't recall the author claiming divine revelation for the Harry Potter books?
No, but the author of The Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster claims divine revelation, and that's also a real book that I can hold in my hands.

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  #72  
Old 01-05-2008, 04:41 PM
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Dawud Dawud is offline
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Re: Sin and Salvation

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Originally Posted by kazza View Post
No, but the author of The Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster claims divine revelation, and that's also a real book that I can hold in my hands.
I looked on Amazon but they don't offer it for sale. Where can I get my copy?


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