Conversion to Islam or Judaism

[KishmeernTuches]

Is it easier to convert to Islam or Judaism?

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Is it easier to convert to Islam or Judaism?

Converting to Judiasm is a lengthly process. Plus the Jews aren't very interested in converts. A person must be born to a Jewish mother to be considered a true Jew. Being born to a Jewish father dosen't count.

To become a Muslim is very simple. You just repeat in Arabic these 2 sentences in front of a group of Muslims. Called the Shadda (shaw-ha-da)

"There is No other God but God".
"And Muhammad is the Prophet of God".

After saying the Shadda, the people at the Mosque will teach you the 5daily prayers and the ritual washing before prayers.

[KishmeernTuches]

How does one 'become' a Christian?

[dr. hook]

Religion is just a belief system with rituals. As long as you follow it you can consider yourself to be that religion. But in terms of other people accepting it is different. I would also say converting to Islam is easy, that's what all the prisoners find.

[lexx]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

How does one 'become' a Christian?

according to scripture,you must become a different "creature",by putting on a different "mind"(do as your told)by "realizing"(making it true) in your heart(the source of mind(s),that there is a better/best mind available(mind of the christ) to you as a "free chooser"(legal term)of your own person/character/ACTIVELY IMPOSING IDENTITY!?AKA...creat-ture!?or maybe more accurately.....create-overture!?you must be born again,to recreate/reaffirm your belief in TRUTH!?the ultimate "BOURNE IDENTITY"!?WAHOO!?..do you...YAHOO!?:shocked: :drunk: :devil: hehe!!...just askn...

[lexx]

i just had this thought!?....men may practice religion but it is the individual that has the potential to make it perfect/present!?all men cannot acheive it's stated/worshipped goal but everyman can try!?if self willing!?............ok,forget it then.....:surprised: :drunk: :clown: :devil:hehe!!....just askn.....

[lexx]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Converting to Judiasm is a lengthly process. Plus the Jews aren't very interested in converts. A person must be born to a Jewish mother to be considered a true Jew. Being born to a Jewish father dosen't count.

To become a Muslim is very simple. You just repeat in Arabic these 2 sentences in front of a group of Muslims. Called the Shadda (shaw-ha-da)

"There is No other God but God".
"And Muhammad is the Prophet of God".

After saying the Shadda, the people at the Mosque will teach you the 5daily prayers and the ritual washing before prayers.

i think christianity states that no man can say "christ is lord" but that he say it thru/by the holy spirit!?if mind=spirit=voice!?then this makes sense!?from a technical standpoint anyway!?and it just occured to me that the christ was born as a man and thus making the mind of god available to ALL men again!?does this make christ worship valid!?or is it just another form of hero worship!?albeit the most deserving!?do all prophets make known the mind of god!?surely there are greater and lesser prophets!?certainly a "son" has more authority than an admirer/promoter concerning a/the father!?:surprised: :drunk: :clown: :devil: hehe!!.....just askn..

[lexx]

Originally Posted by dr. hook

Religion is just a belief system with rituals. As long as you follow it you can consider yourself to be that religion. But in terms of other people accepting it is different. I would also say converting to Islam is easy, that's what all the prisoners find.

name anything organized that men do under the sun that is not belief and ritual!?HEY COOS!?when ya gonna get started on that comparative religion "KICK" of yours!?:cry: :surprised: :drunk: :devil:hehe!!....just askn...

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Is it easier to convert to Islam or Judaism?

It depends if you're an uncircumcised male or not. And I think even the circumcised ones must draw a drop of blood from the penis. I know it's gross, but just saying.

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

How does one 'become' a Christian?

Public declaration of Jesus being your Lord and Savior who you will follow for your whole life, and being baptized at the earliest convenience.

But in my opinion, you'll need to read the entire Bible and truly believe in what you're saying and understand the implications - rather than just say you're one because you were baptized as a baby or your parents were Christian or because it's a cultural thing.

Saying you believe in Jesus means that if someone puts a gun to your head and says they'll shoot you if you don't renounce Jesus, and then ask who is your lord and savior, you are expected to answer "Jesus". The magnitude of the mandates of Christ should come over your heart, and though none ever live sinless lives, you still strive for those lofty ideals. Your life becomes a pronouncement of justice - a thing that does not go with the flow of culture. If one truly becomes Christian in their hearts, the poor will be very grateful for it.

[mumbles]

be careful. did anybody warn you that if you convert to Islam and later change your mind, the penalty is death ?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52004

"refused to join a crowd chanting Quran verses in honor of the lunar eclipse"

yep, that's death penalty.

[KishmeernTuches]

Originally Posted by mumbles

be careful. did anybody warn you that if you convert to Islam and later change your mind, the penalty is death ?

Converting to Islam then is easiest, but you're saying that it's impossible to unconvert?

Can you then remain a Muslim and also be a Christian or also a Jew?

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Converting to Islam then is easiest, but you're saying that it's impossible to unconvert?

Can you then remain a Muslim and also be a Christian or also a Jew?

All 3 are considered monotheistic religions. But they are seperate and distinct religions.

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Converting to Islam then is easiest, but you're saying that it's impossible to unconvert?

Mumbles gave you a good answer about the penalty for leaving Islam. However, he did not say it is impossible to unconvert. It is possible to do so. Thousands of people who are nominally "Muslims" are losing their religion daily. They just don't let people around them know about it because they don't want to get killed for their apostacy. Islam is the fastest dying religion in the world. More people leave Islam every day than any other religion.

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Can you then remain a Muslim and also be a Christian or also a Jew?

Not really. Like I said before, though, some people pretend to be Muslim when really they are not really Muslim. If the person was something else before, he or she might go back to his or her original religion.

" According to research by Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus. 75% of New Muslim Converts in the US leave Islam within a few years."
http://soc.mailarchive.ca/culture.usa/2007-08/0515.html

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Converting to Judiasm is a lengthly process.

That's true, Dawud.

Originally Posted by Dawud

Plus the Jews aren't very interested in converts.

That's not true, Dawud. There is a great deal of interest in converts to Judaism from Jews. What there is not much of is active proselytization (or, dawa, as proselytization is called in Islam, Dawud; hmmm - I see a connection between your username and the term for proselytization; coincidence?)

Originally Posted by Dawud

A person must be born to a Jewish mother to be considered a true Jew.

No. A convert to Judaism is considered a true Jew. That's why it takes so long.

Originally Posted by Dawud

Being born to a Jewish father dosen't count.

According to Jewish law, Jewish identity is drawn matrilinealy because it is always certain who the mother is. The identity of who the father might be is open to question, especially bearing in mind historical patterns of frequent attacks against Jewish people and the rapings that often occur at those times.

Originally Posted by Dawud

To become a Muslim is very simple.

Too simple. People get into it without really knowing they are getting into a mysogenistic death cult bent on world domination (unless they are pressured into joining under threat of violence; then the hidden agenda becomes clear pretty quickly).

Originally Posted by Dawud

You just repeat in Arabic these 2 sentences in front of a group of Muslims. Called the Shadda (shaw-ha-da)

"There is No other God but God".
"And Muhammad is the Prophet of God".

That's a distorted translation, Dawud. A more accurate translation would be "There is no God but Allah, and Mahamood is his prophet."

The word for God in Arabic is Ilah, not Allah. Allah is the proper name of the pagan Moon god that Mahamood falsely claimed is the same god as was worshipped by the Jews and Christians.

Originally Posted by Dawud

After saying the Shadda, the people at the Mosque will teach you the 5daily prayers and the ritual washing before prayers.

...and a whole lot of hatred towards everyone who is not a Mahamoodan, but not right away. Newcomers have to be treated gingerly at first, aren't they Dawud?

[Dawud]

Bitten, you try to come across as someone who is an Islamic expert. But around 50% of what you say is either wrong, misguided, or a blatant lie.

My name is David. In Arabic and in the Quran the name is called Dawud. (dow-ood) At the Mosque I am known as Dawud.

I converted to Islam almost 7 years ago. No one held a gun to my head. I converted after a long period of intense study. Pre 9/11

I was a Christian for many years and have read the Bible many times and almost became a Minister. I have also attended Jewish Synagogue services and High Holidays. My BA degree is in Sociology with a minor in Psychology.

What I am trying to say is that I am not some misguided dummy who fell into a religious cult unaware. I have been treated with the upmost respect and brotherhood since day one.

My job takes me to many states and alot of towns and cities throughout the United States. Whenever I travel I google the city and find the local Mosque. Since most Mosques were started by the immigrants who first moved to that town or city. Everyone that I visit is unique. For instance, my favorite mosque in Boston is predominately Somali. Or the one in New Orleans is mainly Pakistain people in attendence. You get the picture. But no matter what the ethnicity of the mosque, there is always a number of American converts who are members.

I personally haven't known of ANY converts who have dropped out of the religion. All of the one's I know are dedicated men and women who work a job, pay taxes, raise their children, and are basically happy about life and Islam.

Like I say I have attended hundereds of services, in dozens of different Mosques, in several states. And Not once have I ever heard hate preached or other anti-infidel non sense as you alledge in your posts. Again, Not one single time.

As far as a hidden Islamic agenda as you suggest Bitten. Something about a death cult, world domination, and other bizzare rantings. Surely you are joking and are smarter than that. I hope.

After 7 years I think I would have become aware of such an agenda, or at least been told of the inner secrets and plots by my Muslim brothers.


So far nothing Bitten! But I will keep looking!!

[Bitten]

You sound like a nice person, Dawud. In real life we probably would easily be friends (assuming you failed to follow the Koranic injunction not to be friends with Jews and Christians).

Koran 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

I'm glad I did not totally assume that you chose Dawud as your username here because of some sort of mission to use this site to do dawa. You have got to admit there is a similarity between the two words, no?

As for my knowledge of Islam, I know enough to keep out of the cult. I have read much of the writings of Ali Sina, Robert Spencer, ***** Winn, Walid Shoebat, Ibn Warraq and I just bought Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel to read. I have a copy of a translation of the Koran but it's not written in plain English. I probably will get myself a copy of A Simple Koran soon.

I hope that if you come to see the truth about Islam you will leave it. I heard a joke recently about the difference between an extremist Muslim and a moderate Muslim. An extremist cuts off your head while a moderate holds your feet. By promoting the image of Islam being peaceful and lovely, you make it easier for the death cult to grow and become more *****ful so that when it comes time to switch tactics and go on the offence, it will be harder for the opponent (i.e. non-Muslims) to escape. Mahamood originated this tactic with the Treaty of Hudabiya, which had been a peace treaty scheduled to last 10 years between the non-Muslims of Mecca and the Muslims exiled from Mecca to Medina, but Mahamood could not maintain the terms of the treaty for ten days, and two years later, when he and his forces became strong enough, he used some small pretext to charge against Mecca and take it over. Since then, whenever Muslims are not in a position to take over territory they present a peaceful face until they feel they have enough fighting ***** to overcome the owners of the land they want to steal for Allah.

I have no doubt that you are not one of the people who would be charging forth in battle, Dawud. You strike me as very sincere and nice. Sadly, because of this you may be one of the first to die at the hands of the Muslims when the war lusting Mahamoodan leadership decide that it's time to fight in Allah's cause. You will be called a "hypocrite" by them.

‘Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike something which is good for you and that you like something which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.’

(Surat-al-Baqarah (2), ayah 216)

"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination," (Quran 9:73)

For more goodies like the above, check out: http://www.carm.org/islam/terrorism.htm

As for the conspiracy of Islam striving to take over the world, read the eighth sura, especially this line:
Qur'an 8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."

[Dawud]

Bitten we need to start of with the first piece of misinformation that you have presented. That the Quran states that I cannot be friends with Christians and Jews. This is a totally false statement. The Surah 5:51 that you refer to was during a time of war. And you have taken it totally out of context.

This Surah was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other.

That is quite a difference from your statement Bitten!

By the way I am a Wahhabi Sunni. Which is considered the most orthodox of the Islamic schools by the west. I personally am very conservative and follow the strict Sunna of the Prophet.

I have friends who are both Christians and Jews. So I am here to state that people who say Muslims can't be friends with Christians or Jews, have either been misinformed or are deliberatly spreading lies.

[Bitten]

My understanding is that the world is divided by Islam into two; Dar ul Harb (world of war) and Dar ul Islam (world of submission to Allah and his messenger). Are we in North America and Europe not living in Dar ul Harb? If so, in accordance of what you wrote about the quote applying only during war, then any apparent friendship between a non-hypocrite Muslim and a Jew or Christian has to be a matter of deception, in the spirit of the Treaty of Hudaibiya.

[Dawud]

Bitten, all of the author's that you have mentioned I have also read.

They are all vehemently anti-Islamic. And I can assure you that everyone of them can twist verses of the Quran worse than a Bible thumping Preacher out to save a ***** at a honky tonk bar.

Take Ayaan Hirsi Ali'. She states flat out that she is not a Muslim. She was only born in a Muslim country. At a young age she ran away from home so that she could shack up with her boyfriend. She lied about her past to get into Denmark. Later the lies were exposed and she was expelled for entering the country illegally. She has since became a self proclaimed lesbian. There is Nothing Muslim about her. But she makes large amounts of money selling books and giving lectures to gulible people on Islam. A subject she really knows very little about.

[Bitten]

She's a lesbian? I'm crushed. :aww:

She's so beautiful. I love her. I'm so grateful to her for exposing the evil that is Islam. I'll never stop loving her even if there's no hope for her and I to be together as a couple.

I like this video of her apologizing to Salman Rushdie for wanting him to die.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QncCUxM4L-Y

Hmm. I wonder why you did not answer my question about Dar ul Harb?

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Bitten

She's a lesbian? I'm crushed. :aww:

She's so beautiful. I love her. I'm so grateful to her for exposing the evil that is Islam. I'll never stop loving her even if there's no hope for her and I to be together as a couple.

I like this video of her apologizing to Salman Rushdie for wanting him to die.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QncCUxM4L-Y

Hmm. I wonder why you did not answer my question about Dar ul Harb?

I am a one finger typer so I am very slow in responding. Plus I had to grab lunch.

I hope that you are not a lesbian Bitten.

As far as the Treaty of Hudaibiya I suggest that you read some non Muslim objective historians on the subject.

The treaty was broken by the signers from the other side. There by negating the treaty.

It has ZERO to do with today or friendships.



In the 1930s & 40s the world was broken into the Allies and the Axis.

From the 50s to the 80s it was the Communists and the Capitolists.

Muhammad's prophecy was that the world would be divided into areas of Islamic influence and non influence.

Isn't that the way it is right now?

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

I am a one finger typer so I am very slow in responding. Plus I had to grab lunch.

Please, take your time Dawud. I would rather see a complete answer than a quick answer. In another thread in this Religious Scams forum I took two and a half years to respond. lol

Originally Posted by Dawud

I hope that you are not a lesbian Bitten.

If what you said about my beloved Ayaan is true, I wish I were, but alas, I am not. I am merely a man of the heterosexual variety.

Originally Posted by Dawud

As far as the Treaty of Hudaibiya I suggest that you read some non Muslim objective historians on the subject.

I found Yasser Arafat's take on it interesting. He alluded to it when explaining to his followers why he signed peace treaties with Israel. He said that he did so in the tradition of the Treaty of Hudaibiya in order to gain advantages but that eventually he would return to war with Israel at some time in order to take it over. That's exactly what happened. He looked for some excuse to fight with Israel again and started up an intifada at the slightest provocation, turning a molehill into a mountain. I don't remember the details. Wasn't it having to do with Ariel Sharon going for a walk near the Temple of Solomon (which had been cleared in advance by the Waqf, although that fact is not usually talked about).

I know Yasser Arafat isn't known as the most erudite historian, but he wasn't a lithe ebony female infidel like my Ayaan either.

Originally Posted by Dawud

The treaty was broken by the signers from the other side. There by negating the treaty.

Mahamood broke it first.

"The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'" [Bukhari: 7:67:427]

Muhammad had already broken the treaty before the Quraysh had attacked Muhammad’s allies. Let us repeat what Silas had written:

Later, other Meccans came to Muhammad and according to the Treaty asked Muhammad to return some women. Muhammad refused to honor his word and the Treaty. Instead he had the Muslims return any dowries that were given to the women.
"Umm Kulthum Uqba Muayt migrated to the apostle during this period. Her two brothers Umara and Walid sons of Uqba came and asked the apostle to return her to them in accordance with the agreement between him and Quraysh at Hudaybiyya, but he would not. God forbade it. ..... Sirat page 509.
The Sunan of Abu Dawud in volume 2, #2759 says:

"... Thereafter some believing women who were immigrants came. (Allah sent down: O ye who believe when believing women come to you as emigrants). Allah most high forbade them to send them back, but ordered them to restore the dower."

Muhammad claimed that now God allowed him to break the Treaty, stating the conditions were only a test of the Muslim women's faith. Once again, Muhammad has a convenient "revelation" justifying his actions [see Sura 60:10]. Once again, Muhammad puts the responsibility on God's shoulders for his sin, i.e., allowing him to break his word.

Muhammad refused to return the women to the pagan Meccans on the grounds that Allah forbade it, even though this was part of the conditions stipulated in the treaty that had been made at Hudaibiyah. Muhammad clearly violated this agreement.
More importantly, Zawadi is not entirely forthcoming regarding why the Banu Bakr tribe attacked Khuza’ah.
(For more, please click the above link to read the entire article.)

Nonetheless, the Islamic mind is such that no self-blame can be accepted. After many violations of the treaty by Mahamood and his followers, the Quraish tribe did something that violated the treaty, and that served as an excuse to commit a huge raid against Mecca and take over when the Mahamoodans were in a stronger position than they had been two years previously.

Originally Posted by Dawud

It has ZERO to do with today or friendships.

I think you actually believe that, and I am sure your Jewish and Christian friends are not in any direct danger from you. Even so, you are generally wrong, and your friends are in indirect danger because they could be targetted by those who will kill you as a "hypocrite" when the call for violent Jihad is given by your Wahabist mulah and you do not obey.

Originally Posted by Dawud

In the 1930s & 40s the world was broken into the Allies and the Axis.

From the 50s to the 80s it was the Communists and the Capitolists.

Muhammad's prophecy was that the world would be divided into areas of Islamic influence and non influence.

Isn't that the way it is right now?

Sadly, the Mahamoodans do, indeed, have aspirations of global domination and divide the world into "us" (Muslims) against "them" (infidels). Welcome to WWIV (the Cold War being WWIII).

[Dawud]

Yasser Arafat was a crook and a gangster. Politicians will say anything, so his quotes are bogus rants.

We will have to just disagree about the Treaty and it's implications for today. It reminds me of Christian Fundamentalist Preachers using verses out of context to make a point.

Yes, Somali women are beautiful. I am planning on marriage soon to a Somali woman.

She knows Ayaan Hirsi Ali's relatives and that Hirsi is a woman of low morals. Also, she is a joke throught the Islamic world. In that she knows very little about Islam, but is heralded in the West as an expert.

Your talk about being killed by my Islamic friends is silly. You think that there is a leader who can give a command and all Muslims will obey.

I challenge you to seek out a local Mosque and go there to meet the people and ask questions. I promise you that you will be warmly recieved and ALL questions will be answred.

[Bitten]

We can agree to disagree on things, and it looks like we disagree on many. Just the same, it's nice communicating with a Mahamoodan like you who is so gentlemanly. Most of the Mahamoodans I read postings from on the forums at http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://councilofexmuslims.com are very unpleasant. Thank you for being so nice.

As for your challenge, I'm pleased to report there is no mosque in my locality! I'd be gravely concerned if there was one, and would not be willing to take the chance with my life that you have suggested.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Bitten

We can agree to disagree on things, and it looks like we disagree on many. Just the same, it's nice communicating with a Mahamoodan like you who is so gentlemanly. Most of the Mahamoodans I read postings from on the forums at http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://councilofexmuslims.com are very unpleasant. Thank you for being so nice.

As for your challenge, I'm pleased to report there is no mosque in my locality! I'd be gravely concerned if there was one, and would not be willing to take the chance with my life that you have suggested.

Bitten, if I only went to the sites you go to and read all of the anti-Islamic books you injest. I would be terrified also.

Here is the #1 Islamic web site in North America. www.Islamicity.com

The largest Islamic organization is the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). www.ISNA.COM

The President of the ISNA is an American woman convert named Dr. Ingrid Matson Phd. Google her if you want to hear what a real Muslim has to say about Islam.

Bitten, I sincerly believe that you need to meet some Islamic people. Your a smart guy, but your views are extreme to say the least.

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Bitten, if I only went to the sites you go to and read all of the anti-Islamic books you injest. I would be terrified also.

Let me respond to that by quoting one of my heroes who walked away from Islam some years ago, Ali Sina: "All one has to do is read the Quran to see that all the evil perpetrated by Muslims stem from this book of terror."

Originally Posted by Dawud

Here is the #1 Islamic web site in North America. www.Islamicity.com

The largest Islamic organization is the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). www.ISNA.COM

What beautiful websites. They are obviously designed with public relations towards outsiders and new recruits to Islam in mind.

Originally Posted by Dawud

The President of the ISNA is an American woman convert named Dr. Ingrid Matson Phd. Google her if you want to hear what a real Muslim has to say about Islam.

I see Dr. Mattson likes to play the game of divide to conquer when she was "...at Harvard University on March 12 and gave American Jews some unsolicited advice. 'Right-wing Christians are very risky allies for American Jews because they are really anti-Semitic. They do not like Jews.' And therefore, she implied, Jews should stay away from Evangelicals and other pro-Israel Christians. She adds that many American Jews have an 'existential fear that somehow [Muslims are] a threat to Israel.'"

Top notch pick, Dawad!

Originally Posted by Dawud

Bitten, I sincerly believe that you need to meet some Islamic people.

Permit me to read between the lines here. What you are saying, I think, is that one can learn a lot about Islam from the people who identify themselves as being part of that group. I think mostly (but not entirely) otherwise. Most Mahamoodans have not read the Koran. Most people who call themselves "Muslims" don't really know much about Islam. In order to know Islam well, the best thing to do is study the life of Mahamood, that which he said, and that which he did. For that, all we need are the Hadiths and the Koran. Through these we learn about his violence, his lechery, his greed, his pedophilia, his slave trading, his madness and other unpleasant characteristics of Mahamood. I wish more people would read these books so they could see the truth about Islam and what a grand scam it is now and has been for over 1400 years. Amazing!

Originally Posted by Dawud

Your a smart guy,

Thanks. After dabbing the wounds inflicted on me by dr hook on this site, that is a welcome salve.

Originally Posted by Dawud

but your views are extreme to say the least.

I don't think so. Jim Horn is a public speaker whose views are more or less in alignment with mine. Witness the standing ovation given to Jim Horn at the National Federation of Republican Women earlier this year:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEDBMhVusk
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl_EuQxWo04
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwPdEFoWomU

As time goes on, my views will become more and more mainstream.

[Dawud]

Sometimes I hear people say that most Muslims haven't read the Quran or even know what it says.

That is one of the biggest lies about Islam that there is.

In reality, millions upon millions of Muslims memorize the Quran each year.
People who memorize the Quran are called "Hafiz".

I personally know several myself.

Also, if you travel anywhere in the middle east. You will hear tape players and radios playing the Quran in cars, trucks, and taxi's.
Throughout Islamic countrys there are Quran reciting contests live and on TV.

So for a person to make the statemrnt that most Muslims don't know what the Quran says. Is either totally misinformed or a blatant lier.

[KishmeernTuches]

Originally Posted by Dawud

I was a Christian for many years and have read the Bible many times and almost became a Minister. I have also attended Jewish Synagogue services and High Holidays.

Impressive. Born Christian, Experienced Judaism, Converted to Islam.
Which Christian Sect? Which Judaism Sect?

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Sometimes I hear people say that most Muslims haven't read the Quran or even know what it says.

That is one of the biggest lies about Islam that there is.

In reality, millions upon millions of Muslims memorize the Quran each year.
People who memorize the Quran are called "Hafiz".

I personally know several myself.

Also, if you travel anywhere in the middle east. You will hear tape players and radios playing the Quran in cars, trucks, and taxi's.
Throughout Islamic countrys there are Quran reciting contests live and on TV.

So for a person to make the statemrnt that most Muslims don't know what the Quran says. Is either totally misinformed or a blatant lier.

Permit me to rephrase what I wrote before.

Most Mahamoodans have not read the Koran with understanding.

I think if you re-read what I wrote before in the context of the whole paragraph, you'll see that's what I originally meant.

Dawud, there are over a 1,000,000,000 people in the world who are considered to be "Muslims". I don't know what percentage of them are literate at all. I've heard that illiteracy is generally higher in "muslim countries" than "non-muslim countries". Of those "Muslims" who are literate, I don't know what percentage of them are fluent in modern, let alone 7th Century Arabic. I have no idea, but since a large minority of "Muslims" are in Indonesia and Malaysia where Arabic is not generally understood, and let's not forget Bangladesh, Pakistan and Iran where Arabic also is not generally understood, I really find it difficult to believe that most "Muslims", i.e. more than half a billion people, understand the Koran in its original language. Translations are helpful, but that was not what you wrote about. You mentioned only the Middle East.

It's possible to train a bear to appear to read the Koran. You just put honey on the pages of the book and watch the bear turn the pages and move its lips and tongue over each. Voila! A bear reading the Koran! But that doesn't mean the bear understands what he's "read".

I seriously think most Mahamoodans do not understand Islam. The ex-Muslim movement, however, is helping to change that. When people who called themselves "Muslims" find out that the man they thought was the ideal person had sex with a girl who was only 8 years, nine months old (after his rich old wife died) they are shocked! When they find out he tried to have sex with widow Safiya the night after her father and husband had been murdered by his followers, they are shocked further! When they find out that his first wife was a rich, older woman whom he sponged off of for decades, the word gigolo comes to their minds. When they find out that he claimed one fifth of all that his gangsters stole from other tribes, they start to get the idea about what kind of a guy pulled this scam. They realize that this man was the most self-indulgent narcissist who ever lived!

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Impressive. Born Christian, Experienced Judaism, Converted to Islam.
Which Christian Sect? Which Judaism Sect?

Thanks KT
I was raised in a Catholic family, but was just a nominal Catholic.
When I got married my wife was a Baptist, so I joined her church.
After several years her and I started visiting different fundamentalist, non-denominal churches. Each type of church has various part of Christianity that they focus on. So all in all I learned alot.
Later I decided that to learn more about the Old Testament. That's when I visited a couple of Jewish Synagogues. I can't remember if they were Reformed or Conservative synagogues, but I did learn about the Jewish faith.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Bitten

Permit me to rephrase what I wrote before.

Most Mahamoodans have not read the Koran with understanding.


Dawud, there are over a 1,000,000,000 people in the world who are considered to be "Muslims". I don't know what percentage of them are literate at all. I've heard that illiteracy is generally higher in "muslim countries" than "non-muslim countries". Of those "Muslims" who are literate, I don't know what percentage of them are fluent in modern, let alone 7th Century Arabic. I have no idea, but since a large minority of "Muslims" are in Indonesia and Malaysia where Arabic is not generally understood, and let's not forget Bangladesh, Pakistan and Iran where Arabic also is not generally understood, I really find it difficult to believe that most "Muslims", i.e. more than half a billion people, understand the Koran in its original language. Translations are helpful, but that was not what you wrote about. You mentioned only the Middle East.

!

Bitten, you are really way of on this one.

First of all there is nothing difficult about understanding the Quran. There isn't secret messages or complex formulas in the Quran.
It's basically bible like stories,such as, the birth of Jesus, Johana and the whale, Moses parting the Red Sea. It includes what foods Muslims are allowed to eat and which ones not to eat. Also it lays down what God considers sin, heaven and hell, and what personal conduct is acceptable. The Quran is full of stories and concepts that are easily understood.

Muslim children learn these things at an early age. Much like Christian children learn the Bible at sunday school. Or Jewish kids learn the Torah and Hebrew at the Synagogue.

Bitten, every mosque has classes for both children and adults to learn Arabic and read the Quran. I have never seen one that dosen't. And yes, people know exactly what the Quran says and teaches.

Also, no matter what language a Muslim person speaks. It is his and his wifes religious duty to teach Arabic and the Quran to the children. This has been going on for generations.

True in some countrys the illiteracy rate is high. So that is why the memorization of the Quran was adopted by so many people.

Again Bitten, to say that over one billion people read and believe in a book that they can't understand is just absured.

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by KishmeernTuches

Converting to Islam then is easiest, but you're saying that it's impossible to unconvert?

Can you then remain a Muslim and also be a Christian or also a Jew?

No. The three faiths have no interesection. They are exclusive. To follow Judaism, you must only follow its idea of God, otherwise you are an idolater. Judaism goes so far as to claim you are not even a Jew, but a gentile, if you accept Christianity. And Judaism has no love for Allah at all.

The Quran states anyone who doesn't accept it will burn in hell. This means Christians and people of Judaism.

Christianity teaches you can't go to heaven unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Islam forbids that in the Quran, and Judaism is practically founded on being the anti-thesis of Christ, regardless of what they tell you. A quick visit to jewsforjudaism.com will give you a detail scoop.

[ygalg]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Thanks KT
Later I decided that to learn more about the Old Testament. That's when I visited a couple of Jewish Synagogues. I can't remember if they were Reformed or Conservative synagogues, but I did learn about the Jewish faith.

your couple of visit, does not constitutes expertise on Judaism.
odd that you would claim that, your post about converts, shows you know not much.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by ygalg

your couple of visit, does not constitutes expertise on Judaism.
odd that you would claim that, your post about converts, shows you know not much.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I visited two different Synagogues many times over a couple of years. I participated in all of the holidays and learned the Hebrew alphabet, plus quite a few words and concepts.

I'm I an expert on Judaism? No

Do I know much more than the average gentile about Judaism? Yes

[ygalg]

Originally Posted by Dawud

You misunderstood what I wrote. I visited two different Synagogues many times over a couple of years. I participated in all of the holidays and learned the Hebrew alphabet, plus quite a few words and concepts.

I'm I an expert on Judaism? No

Do I know much more than the average gentile about Judaism? Yes

I wonder which synagogue teach hebrew, Torah and

Plus the Jews aren't very interested in converts. A person must be born to a Jewish mother to be considered a true Jew.

??
you confusing yeshivas with synagogues. if you know anything it's less than a little.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by ygalg

I wonder which synagogue teach hebrew, Torah and ??
you confusing yeshivas with synagogues. if you know anything it's less than a little.

Fellow what exactly is your problem?

I never said that I went to a yeshiva. I learned Hebrew on my own. I just bought a couple of books and tapes on learning Hebrew at home and did what they said.

If I had any questions I would ask the Rabbi or someone else at the Synagogue for help.

What makes you such an authority. Are you a Rabbi?

If not, than please shut you stupid face!!!

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Bitten, you are really way of on this one.

No!

Originally Posted by Dawud

First of all there is nothing difficult about understanding the Quran.

There's plenty!

Originally Posted by Dawud

There isn't secret messages

The biggest secret message you need to figure out is Mahamood was making it up as he went along, coming up with so-called "revelations" that conveniently excused his every whim; be it having sex with Ayesha when he was in his 50s and she was only a child (which I think led to her becoming unable to bear children) to getting his adopted son to divorce his wife so Mahamood could be married to her and have sex with her to slaughtering Jews whom he hated with a passion because they (rightly) rejected him as a prophet.

Originally Posted by Dawud

or complex formulas in the Quran.

You're joking! :clown:

See Koran 4:11, 4:12 and 4:176 (I'd quote them in full, but this message would be too long)

Besides the fact that the surahs don't cover all cases, which is an imperfection in the Koran, what cases it does cover are often mathematically impossible! For example, if a woman dies leaving behind a husband, a sister and a mother, the husband is supposed to get half, the sister also half, and the mother a third. That totals one and one third! It would take a miracle to increase the dead woman's property by 33.3%, wouldn't it?

For more examples of the complex formulae in the Koran, see http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html

Originally Posted by Dawud

It's basically bible like stories,such as, the birth of Jesus, Johana and the whale, Moses parting the Red Sea.

They are fractured Bible stories. If people want to learn Bible stories they should avoid the Koran and read Bible! Only Mahamood would confuse the mother of Jesus and the sister of Moses because they both happen to have the same name. Those two women lived 1,500 years apart but Mahamood thought they were the same person when he tried to retell Bible tales.

For more exposure of the fraudulent retelling of Hebraic, Sumerian and earlier folklore see [urlhttp://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_03_I_Dont_Noah_Bout_This.Islam]I Don't Noah 'Bout This[/url] by ***** Winn.

Originally Posted by Dawud

It includes what foods Muslims are allowed to eat and which ones not to eat.

While it's pretty simple and easy to understand what foods Muslims are allowed and not allowed to eat (basically pigs and dogs and carrion which includes any animal butchered by a non-muslim except a Jewish shochet), it is hard to understand why Allah allows so many unclean animals (according to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14) to be eaten by Mahamoodans. Jews are forbidden to eat bat, hare, ossifrage, camel, hawk, owl, chameleon, heron, pelican, coney, kite, raven, cormorant, cuckow, eagle, ferret, gier, eagle, glede, great owl, little owl, lapwing, lizard, mole, mouse, night hawk, osprey, ostrich, snail, stork, swan, swine, tortoise, vulture, weasel, abalone, alligator, ape, bear, cat, catfish, cheetah, clam, cockatoo, crab, crayfish, crow, dog, dolphin, donkey, eel, elephant, fox, gecko, gibbon, hedgehog, lion, lobster, lynx, magpie, monkey, mussel, parrot, penguin, prawns, racoon, rat, scallop, seal, shark, shrimp, squid, squirrel, snake, starfish, tiger, turtle, wolf, worm, zebra and all shellfish.

Must be two different gods laying out the rules. That's the only way for it to not be confusing. But Mahamoodans claim their god is the same god as the god of the Jews. Impossible. The above listing is proof. Mahamoodans reading this are probably suffering from exploding head syndrome at the moment. :sunglasses:

Originally Posted by Dawud

Also it lays down what God considers sin,

And not in a way that provides people with a moral compass. Rather, it does so in an infantalizing manner, making people dependent upon an outside authority that capriciously decides what is permitted (halal) and what is forbidden (haram).

Watch this video about a game one can play to learn what is halal and what is haram:
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/05/08/halal-or-haram/

Would it not be much less confusing to believe in the ten commandments and the golden rule? Unfortunately Mahamood did not follow these, and so they are not in the Koran.

Originally Posted by Dawud

heaven

Islamic heaven is X-rated! How you can teach children about 72 virgins whose hymens keep growing back over and over as their vaginas are rapaciously plundered over and over I don't know. Nor, how do you explain what grown men in Islamic heaven would be doing with "boys like pearls". It has nothing to do with this sort of behaviour, does it?



And then there are the rivers of wine. Wine in real life is haram, but in the afterlife it is halal. This is not confusing Dawud? I'm sure you have some fanciful explanation for that, but really, who are you kidding?

Originally Posted by Dawud

and hell,

That was a favourite topic of Mahamoods. He knew fear was a greater motivator to keep people doing what he wanted them to do than anticipation of rewards. He talked a lot about Hell.

See http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/hell.html

Originally Posted by Dawud

and what personal conduct is acceptable.

Yeah. Be like Mahamood! :devil:

Originally Posted by Dawud

The Quran is full of stories and concepts that are easily understood.

Muslim children learn these things at an early age. Much like Christian children learn the Bible at sunday school. Or Jewish kids learn the Torah and Hebrew at the Synagogue.

Bitten, every mosque has classes for both children and adults to learn Arabic and read the Quran. I have never seen one that dosen't. And yes, people know exactly what the Quran says and teaches.

Not every child who is thought to be a Mahamoodan actually goes to mosque. I would hope most do not. I do not like the idea of them being brainwashed to believe in the evil that Islam teaches. It strikes me as being child abuse.

Originally Posted by Dawud

Also, no matter what language a Muslim person speaks. It is his and his wifes religious duty to teach Arabic and the Quran to the children. This has been going on for generations.

Hopefully such duties are not followed in the majority of cases.

Originally Posted by Dawud

True in some countrys the illiteracy rate is high. So that is why the memorization of the Quran was adopted by so many people.

Again Bitten, to say that over one billion people read and believe in a book that they can't understand is just absured.

That's right. It is absurd.

[Dawud]

Bitten, next time try posting one or maybe two topics at a time. OK

All of the accusations that you have listed are easily explained.

You some how think all of these so called new and astounding facts about Islam are going to make Muslims reject their religion.

What a joke!!!

Christian misionaries have been in the middle east for a couple of hundred years making these exact same rediculous accusations over and over.

Muslims have heard all of this junk before. Believe me none of it is new.

Bitten you really know very little about Islam. All you actually know is the stupid anti-Islamic dribble that you have been spoon feed by right wing christian bozos.

[ygalg]

Originally Posted by Dawud

Fellow what exactly is your problem?

you give disinformation.

I never said that I went to a yeshiva.

where have I asserted you did?

I learned Hebrew on my own. I just bought a couple of books and tapes on learning Hebrew at home and did what they said.

ואיך הולך לך עם השפה ?

If I had any questions I would ask the Rabbi or someone else at the Synagogue for help.

you should have done so, instead giving disinformation.

What makes you such an authority. Are you a Rabbi?

I'm no authority nor a rabbi, but experience I gained as a jew gives me credence.

If not, than please shut you stupid face!!!

ad hominem is a sign of a defeat. דבר יפה!

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by ygalg

you give disinformation.

!

What disinformation did I give?

I just told a bit of my personal story.

Again, what disinformation?

[ygalg]

Plus the Jews aren't very interested in converts.

A person must be born to a Jewish mother to be considered a true Jew.

Jewish kids learn the Torah and Hebrew at the Synagogue.

יש מבין דוד ?

[Dawud]

That's it!? That's your big disinformation!!!

Look it up. A person born to a jewish mother is a jew. A child born to a jewish man and a gentile woman is NOT considered jewish.

Synagouges and Temples don't have proslytizing campaigns like evangelical christian churches do. Jews don't go knocking on doors like Jehovah Whitnesses or Mormans looking for converts. If someone converts that's fine. But it's not a major focus of the jewish faith.

Many Synagogues and Temples have weekend Hebrew and Torah study classes for both adults and children. Yeshivas are usually weekday schools for children.

[ygalg]

Originally Posted by Dawud

A person born to a jewish mother is a jew. A child born to a jewish man and a gentile woman is NOT considered jewish.

unless he or she convert to judiasm.
and be born is not yet a jew. every born Jewish mother must go through circumcision. otherwise he be cut off and no longer be considered a jew but a descendant of jewish mother and (if he desires to return to his previous roots) he will has to go through conversion process as if he never was born of a jewish mother.

Synagouges and Temples don't have proslytizing campaigns like evangelical christian churches do. Jews don't go knocking on doors like Jehovah Whitnesses or Mormans looking for converts. If someone converts that's fine. But it's not a major focus of the jewish faith.

your point was, that they do not interesting in converts. this is not true. the method changed not the desire.

proselytizing used to be practice it's also evident in islamic sources. under Christian and islamic regime Jews were forbidden to practice proselytism. that cuase both felt insecure.

Many Synagogues and Temples have weekend Hebrew and Torah study classes for both adults and children. Yeshivas are usually weekday schools for children.

I'm not familiar weekend study in synagogues.
Yeshivas open all days. weekend reserved for different experiences.

[Bitten]

Originally Posted by Dawud

All you actually know is the stupid anti-Islamic dribble that you have been spoon feed by right wing christian bozos.

Robert Spencer can reply to your assertion better than I:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019285.php

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Bitten

Robert Spencer can reply to your assertion better than I:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019285.php

Honestly Bitten, this guy has very little to say that's of any value, but thanks anyway.

His post starts out with Muslims can't debate and only want to call names.

I guess he hasn't ever meet me. I'll debate with him and not call him any names.

Islam can stand on it's own, and needs only logical exposition and rational thought to prove it's point.

[Bitten]

Dawud, you referred to him (along with others) as a Christian clown. That's not calling names?

Anyhow, if you want to debate with Robert Spencer, just go to http://jihadwatch.org and post commentaries on what he writes. He might respond.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by Bitten

Dawud, you referred to him (along with others) as a Christian clown. That's not calling names?

Anyhow, if you want to debate with Robert Spencer, just go to http://jihadwatch.org and post commentaries on what he writes. He might respond.

If I did. It wasn't in a debate with him.

It was more likely a description I was using while talking "about him".

I generally don't resort to calling names in a one to one debate with a person.

Thanks for the chat site. I'm sure I will log on in the near future.