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  #1  
Old 04-29-2007, 07:43 AM
ILoveTalkingPolitics ILoveTalkingPolitics is offline
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Pascal's Square

So it's like a probability square. There are two possiblities: (1) God exists (2) God doesn't exist. There are two choices we can make: (1) Believe God exists (2) Don't believe God exists

Now lets look at what happens (there are four possibilities):
(1) God exists and you believe in him....heaven
(2) God exists and you don't believe in him.....hell
(3) God doesn't exist and you believe in him......your beliefs are false (oh well)
(4) God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him......good for you

So we see nothing bad happens to those that chose to believe in God whereas there is a chance those that don't belive will end up in hell....so just by logic, option (1) sounds the best.

What do you think?


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  #2  
Old 04-29-2007, 08:37 AM
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Leeguana Leeguana is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveTalkingPolitics
So it's like a probability square. There are two possiblities: (1) God exists (2) God doesn't exist. There are two choices we can make: (1) Believe God exists (2) Don't believe God exists

Now lets look at what happens (there are four possibilities):
(1) God exists and you believe in him....heaven
(2) God exists and you don't believe in him.....hell
(3) God doesn't exist and you believe in him......your beliefs are false (oh well)
(4) God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him......good for you

So we see nothing bad happens to those that chose to believe in God whereas there is a chance those that don't belive will end up in hell....so just by logic, option (1) sounds the best.

What do you think?
According to your theory of "logic", I'll take my chances.

Let's look at it another way, shall we?

By your "scenario", it's a coin flip.

There is no thought involved, no discovery process, no nothing.

Hari Krishna, save my a**.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2007, 11:04 AM
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bibleman bibleman is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveTalkingPolitics
So it's like a probability square. There are two possiblities: (1) God exists (2) God doesn't exist. There are two choices we can make: (1) Believe God exists (2) Don't believe God exists

Now lets look at what happens (there are four possibilities):
(1) God exists and you believe in him....heaven
(2) God exists and you don't believe in him.....hell
(3) God doesn't exist and you believe in him......your beliefs are false (oh well)
(4) God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him......good for you

So we see nothing bad happens to those that chose to believe in God whereas there is a chance those that don't belive will end up in hell....so just by logic, option (1) sounds the best.

What do you think?

I think you need to clarify a few things.

Which god are you trying to support? Would if be fair to the christians here to argue right along with you only to find out that you're Hindu?

Which god should we believe in to make the most out of pascal's wager?

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  #4  
Old 04-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

That was always the weakness of the wager. It presumes that if there is a God, there is only a single God, and that it's the specific God of the person posing the question.

Pascal was a Christian himself, and he hoped that if the wager didn't convince you to be a Christian, it would at leas set you on that path out of fear of being wrong.

Richard Carrier once opined that if there is a God out there who rewards skepticism and logic and rejects blind faith, then he wouldn't be too happy with the concept of Pascal's wager since it does demand blind faith.

And of course, there is the atheists wager standing opposite to Pascal's

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You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him
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  #5  
Old 04-29-2007, 01:46 PM
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Leeguana Leeguana is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Heresy, say the Christians.

I can hear it already . . .
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  #6  
Old 04-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeguana
Heresy, say the Christians.

I can hear it already . . .
I'm okay with it. Under Christian doctrine I'm already going to hell for my disbelief, so adding heresy to my list of crimes against God doesn't seem like it's a really big deal

I'm mean what's he going to do, sentence me to hell for two eternities?
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2007, 07:24 PM
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bogie bogie is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveTalkingPolitics
So it's like a probability square. There are two possiblities: (1) God exists (2) God doesn't exist. There are two choices we can make: (1) Believe God exists (2) Don't believe God exists

Now lets look at what happens (there are four possibilities):
(1) God exists and you believe in him....heaven
(2) God exists and you don't believe in him.....hell
(3) God doesn't exist and you believe in him......your beliefs are false (oh well)
(4) God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him......good for you

So we see nothing bad happens to those that chose to believe in God whereas there is a chance those that don't belive will end up in hell....so just by logic, option (1) sounds the best.

What do you think?
You've outlined the point that many of us who doubt the existance of god are trying to make. Many of us used to be christians and have discarded it for humanism because of this elitist belief that you and others put forth. "Eilther believe in MY god or else," And then you refer to such a decision as logical. I've often, too often for many of my friends here I suppose, used the example of the nazi concentration camp guard leading an innocent family of jews to their death in the gas chamber at auswich in 1944. According to the elitist writings of the bible, that nazi need only acknowledge that jesus is the son of god and ask god's forgiveness and he will enter the kingdom of heaven when he dies after living happily for another few decades. The jewish family on the other hand will burn in hell for eternity having had their innocent live cut way to short. The nazi didn't make the logical choice, he's simply sick and demented. Many, many, many atrocities have been committed in god's name or as god's will. Sick, sick, sick.
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Last edited by bogie : 04-29-2007 at 07:27 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2007, 09:17 PM
ILoveTalkingPolitics ILoveTalkingPolitics is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

You are correct, that would be how it works. If the guard had truly repented and chosen God, he would go to heaven. I sense that you think he doesn't deserve heaven? Well in Christian theology, none of us do. It doesn't matter what sin you commit, it still separates you eternally from God and unless you ask Christ to wash you clean, you will be condemned on judgement day.....I'm not trying to scare anyone either. Scaring someone into believing takes away the whole "choice" aspect. We can't just not say our beliefs when asked for fear of someone being afraid.

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  #9  
Old 04-29-2007, 10:32 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Don't you see the problem though? You devalue human life when you can shrug off the intentional murder of a family by repenting.
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2007, 11:49 PM
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bogie bogie is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveTalkingPolitics
You are correct, that would be how it works. If the guard had truly repented and chosen God, he would go to heaven. I sense that you think he doesn't deserve heaven?
You sense wrong. I don't have any evidence that there is a heaven therefor no one deserves it. It's this elitist attitude that the religious use to suggest either believe as I do or else. Many of us are ex christians who now despise religion because this elitist concept has been used as an excuse for many dastardly events throughout history. The nazis were simply one group who had that attitude.
Quote:
Well in Christian theology, none of us do. It doesn't matter what sin you commit, it still separates you eternally from God and unless you ask Christ to wash you clean, you will be condemned on judgement day.....I'm not trying to scare anyone either. Scaring someone into believing takes away the whole "choice" aspect. We can't just not say our beliefs when asked for fear of someone being afraid.
Ok. I chose not to believe in christ as the son of god because I've seen no evidence to suggest that there is a god. I have committed less sin than most christians I know and have less to ask forgiveness for. So now do I get to go to heaven? No. Because I don't believe as you do. That's elitist crap unless the jewish family gets to go to heaven along with the nazi.
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2007, 08:21 PM
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Lord_jag Lord_jag is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

No... you see there are many gods. You have to choose the right one.
You will see a pattern if you view it this way.

Catholic god = God1
Muslim god = God2
Baptist god = God3
No god = NGod

You belive ->| God1 | God2 | God3 | NGod
Reality | | | |
----------------------------------------------
God1 |Hell | Hell |Hell | Hell
----------------------------------------------
God2 |Hell |Hell |Hell | Hell
----------------------------------------------
God3 |Hell | Hell |Hell | Hell
---------------------------------------------
NGod |Waste |Waste |Waste | Good for you.
----------------------------------------------

Yep! Thats a lot of hell. Because if you actually read your damn holy books instead of using them as clubs you might realize that it is impossible for anyone to actually reach the impossibly high standards that religion asks of you. No God will allow a human into heaven - ever.

No way no how. Read your holy clubs and find out why. Start with the ritual animal sacrifices. Then move on to the selling off all posesions and giving to charity. Havn't done that yet? As the soup guy from seinfeld might say, "No Heaven for you!"

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  #12  
Old 05-02-2007, 10:13 AM
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogie
You sense wrong. I don't have any evidence that there is a heaven therefor no one deserves it. It's this elitist attitude that the religious use to suggest either believe as I do or else. Many of us are ex christians who now despise religion because this elitist concept has been used as an excuse for many dastardly events throughout history. The nazis were simply one group who had that attitude.Ok. I chose not to believe in christ as the son of god because I've seen no evidence to suggest that there is a god. I have committed less sin than most christians I know and have less to ask forgiveness for. So now do I get to go to heaven? No. Because I don't believe as you do. That's elitist crap unless the jewish family gets to go to heaven along with the nazi.
i dont see how your nit picking on the acts or hard feelings of others would prevent you from seeking the truth for yourself!?and there you have it!?we all end up with the truth of what we choose for ourselves!?now if that makes 1 happy then why all the defensive attitude!?oh!i see,all the worlds problems can be blamed on 1 thing!?religion!?and of course all the worlds blessings can be blamed on science,or athiest morality,or evolution!?science evolved to create the atomic bomb,moral man had to use it,to save lives!?hehe!!.....just askn..

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  #13  
Old 05-02-2007, 10:57 AM
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lexx lexx is online now
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_jag
No... you see there are many gods. You have to choose the right one.
You will see a pattern if you view it this way.

Catholic god = God1
Muslim god = God2
Baptist god = God3
No god = NGod

You belive ->| God1 | God2 | God3 | NGod
Reality | | | |
----------------------------------------------
God1 |Hell | Hell |Hell | Hell
----------------------------------------------
God2 |Hell |Hell |Hell | Hell
----------------------------------------------
God3 |Hell | Hell |Hell | Hell
---------------------------------------------
NGod |Waste |Waste |Waste | Good for you.
----------------------------------------------

Yep! Thats a lot of hell. Because if you actually read your damn holy books instead of using them as clubs you might realize that it is impossible for anyone to actually reach the impossibly high standards that religion asks of you. No God will allow a human into heaven - ever.

No way no how. Read your holy clubs and find out why. Start with the ritual animal sacrifices. Then move on to the selling off all posesions and giving to charity. Havn't done that yet? As the soup guy from seinfeld might say, "No Heaven for you!"
hell and heaven are defined as kingdoms!?now for a man the idea of what a kingdom implies is not an easy determination!?it would be like tryin to imagine what a plant's life is like!?but in actuality it is a matter of taste!?or smell!?this is the right way to think about it!?the bible is found using analogies of human senses to express the fact of differences!?and permanencies!?now what does the perfected heaven taste like!?that's the only way to decide!?not by listening to stories of bad and good cooks!?not by second hand rumor and speculation!?
and so everyman strives to find his own brand of heaven that suits his fancy!?(tastes!?)all the religious texts are for is to do a personal comparison!?of god's taste vs mens!?because free will means a choice of tastes!?kingdoms are in the heart and form the mind of man!?all minds are hosts!?of which god is the lord above and over!?mind is "real estate"!?your do or "die for" "self" proclamation to the universe for eternity!?that is the question posed by religion!?for god is the life force of all minds whether to his will or not!?hehe!!....just askn...

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  #14  
Old 05-02-2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godeskian
Don't you see the problem though? You devalue human life when you can shrug off the intentional murder of a family by repenting.
your complaint is based on a "PLAN" of deceit!?a carried out cleverly devised perfect crime!?you cite this example as if it were "COMMON practice" or could become such!?and is it as black and white as you portray it!?did the soldier actually hate jews or did he just follow orders!?would that matter!?how would you be able to know the difference!?and how old are you!?have you lived long enough to have regretted some act of yours you would wish never happened!?why!?because it either threatens your happiness by perceived social disgrace or ruins your self satisfaction in your own self approval by perceived bad/out of character behavior!?is there a way out!?
is the man who lives life fully and freely and never regrets or looks back closer to god than 1 who worries and frets and submits to authority of either religious/political leaders or peers!?i would venture neither is automatically at advantage to truth!?although by sheer consequential practical learning,the former is bound to choose his fate/character by real consequences he encounters!?while the latter could be said to have more discretion available to make his choice!?if he chooses/is able to use it!?does it have to be 1 way or the other!?can they help each other avoid the pitfalls of both!?against there natural tendency of disgust/distrust for each other!?hehe!!....just askn....

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  #15  
Old 05-02-2007, 03:48 PM
Godeskian Godeskian is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexx
and how old are you!
I'm old enough to know that regrets are fruitless, and instead to learn from my mistakes and move on.

Given your inability to write in proper sentances, or use proper punctuation I have to ask, how old are you?

Remember what a wise old man once said, that which is not written with care, will not be read with care.
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  #16  
Old 05-02-2007, 04:20 PM
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bogie bogie is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godeskian
I'm old enough to know that regrets are fruitless, and instead to learn from my mistakes and move on.

Given your inability to write in proper sentances, or use proper punctuation I have to ask, how old are you?

Remember what a wise old man once said, that which is not written with care, will not be read with care.
Ah ya just don't understand lexx. In fact none of us understand lexx. If you begin to understand lexx, get help, professional help, fast. :D
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2007, 12:52 AM
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GeneralTsoGood GeneralTsoGood is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveTalkingPolitics
So it's like a probability square. There are two possiblities: (1) God exists (2) God doesn't exist. There are two choices we can make: (1) Believe God exists (2) Don't believe God exists

Now lets look at what happens (there are four possibilities):
(1) God exists and you believe in him....heaven
(2) God exists and you don't believe in him.....hell
(3) God doesn't exist and you believe in him......your beliefs are false (oh well)
(4) God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him......good for you

So we see nothing bad happens to those that chose to believe in God whereas there is a chance those that don't belive will end up in hell....so just by logic, option (1) sounds the best.

What do you think?
i think that if all it takes to go to "hell" is not believing in god, its not something i care about.

i think that "we" are supposed to believe in god because of a really old book, the same book that tells us humans were created one day after plants.


Last edited by GeneralTsoGood : 05-09-2007 at 01:03 AM.
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  #18  
Old 05-09-2007, 01:01 AM
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GeneralTsoGood GeneralTsoGood is offline
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Re: Pascal's Square

this thread reminds me of an encounter i had at Johns Hopkins with some "bible pushers" (or whatever you want to call people who walk around college campuses trying to convince people to believe in jesus).

i was with some friends, a couple who once they heard the basis of the jesus convincers conversation immediately walked away, and the pushers were asking whether or not we believe in jesus, and y or y not.

after letting one of them know i was jewish, he asked me what i would do if after i die and get to heaven and am cast down into hell for not believing in jesus. i tried to explain to him that his logic is flawed becuase that assumes i believe jesus was holy and that heaven and hell even exist. he simply could not grasp this idea and kept on me that i might as well believe in jesus just "to be safe".

what an arse this guy was....


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