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View Poll Results: I would
Support the right for gay couples and even single people to adopt 16 72.73%
I would oppose the thought of gay couples and/or single people adopting 6 27.27%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #253  
Old 02-08-2007, 09:51 PM
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Connecticut Victim Connecticut Victim is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

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Originally Posted by HotParadox
Ya, call me, anytime after dinner or even late afternoon. :) :p :)
Awesome! I'll talk to ya later.. :)



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  #254  
Old 02-08-2007, 10:44 PM
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Re: Gay Adoption

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Originally Posted by Dawud
Ronald it's so disgusting now in this society that to be and think normal is ridiculed. And to champion perversion is now praised and commended.
What does "normal" mean to you? I suspect it differs from what it means to me. And to me, any religion is perverse and I would never champion one.
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Last edited by bogie : 02-08-2007 at 10:48 PM.
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  #255  
Old 02-08-2007, 10:51 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

[quote=Connecticut Victim]Hi Worker,

With all due respect, I don't think comparing gay adoption to murder is a very logical analogy.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying. Yes, I do support gay marriage and adoption. And I also respect the fact others do not.

I just wish that someone would admit to the fact that their reasons are based on nothing other than their own personal views, and that those views are, by all definition of the law, discrimination.

But no one dares to step up to that plate. You and the others are absolutely entitled to your opinions on gay adoption - no doubt about it.

I would just like to see someone, anyone - take full ownership of what they say here, instead of trying to justify it by blaming gays for being gay... :rolleyes:



What about the kids who are denied a better life? Doesn't that play into this somewhere for you?

I'm not trying to start anything with you, Worker. I think you and I have always gotten along very well here on scam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connecticut Victim
Maybe you can explain your opinion in a way that will make sense to me?.. because I just don't get why the kids should have to remain without a permanent, loving and caring home just because the ones who want to adopt him/her are gay - that simply does not seem to be in the best interest of the child to me... :(
I'll give you an example of what I was talking about. They're married only on paper. They never have... err... relations. There was a time when their marriage was so difficult, they would throw objects at each other from across the room, and they wanted a divorce.

But they stayed together as a nuclear family for their kids, just at least until they graduate from high school. They saw what two divorced parents did to other people's kids, and they decided not to go down that road. They wanted to raise their kids right.

See, I'll admit that gay parents should be allowed to adopt kids that are starving in third world countries. If any religious nut has the balls to complain, then they're basically saying the kid should die. I think before that wall goes up, people have to take accountability for the cruel state of the world.

But if the orphanage system in North America is okay, then why would you put a kid in a situation where he or she is exposed to sexual immorality when you don't have to? I'd rather grow up in an orphanage than be brought up by two gay parents. I think it's incredibly unfair how a lot of kids grow up in a non-Christian setting.

If you're a non-Christian, then what I'm saying is probably going to sound crazy, prejudiced, bigoted, and so on. And that's okay for you to say and think that. If you can't answer the question: "How is Jesus relevant and necessary to everyone?", then I have no cause to be upset at any put down you have for me.

I think also from a non-Christian point of view, a purely what is best for society point of view, I think some restraint ought to be put on sexuality. I think there's such a thing as going too far. Take the WWF, now the WWE. I used to watched that as a kid. I stopped when Golddust came on the scene. It wasn't because he was gay, but because he would lick his opponents during the match and rub up on them. The all these silicon breasted bimbos got on the scene, and it got more and more vulgar.

You look at this gay adoption issue as a humanitarian thing, and I feel sorry that you've fallen for the spin. I look at it and see it as degredation of cultural values. That's why I mentioned I think there should be two societies, one where anything goes and one that's more normal and maintains values that date back thousands of years in pretty much in almost every culture we know.

As for whether homosexuality is wrong or not, yes, I think it is. But to me, so is owning a Mercedes in a world where children starve to death. Now, I have a gay friend and friends who Mercedes. I'm not REPULSED by them. I'm not homophobic. I don't point my finger at them and say they're evil or disgusting. We're still buds. But what they do is wrong, and I know there are sins that I do that are wrong. My point here is I won't accept the label "homophobe" when I have gay friends. Same with "anti-Semite" when I have Jewish friends, and ironically happen to be a semite myself. But in a debate, I'm not going to call what is wrong right. I just won't.



Last edited by Ronald : 02-08-2007 at 10:56 PM.
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  #256  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:00 PM
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
I'd rather grow up in an orphanage than be brought up by two gay parents. .
Did you grow up in an orphanage?

Doubt it somehow......
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  #257  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:02 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by enlightenment
How many times? :rolleyes:

I think homosexuality is neither good nor bad, hetrosexuality is neither good nor bad, being black, brown, white, yellow, or green with red spots, all neither good nor bad, just natural facts of life.

Btw, Ronald actually stated that he has gay friends, and that it is normal, so I am not sure if he will be the best tag team partner for you, but maybe the closest you will get....
See, you fail to understand something. You and I need to spend some time talking about Jesus, and talking about the Bible, so you understand how it is that I am against homosexuality and yet have homosexual friends and care about them. Jesus loved tax collectors and prostitutes. He didn't approve of what they did, but he loved them and died for them so they could still go to heaven.

I disagree with you, that sexual orientation is like race. God determines your race, not your sexual preference. If God determines your sexual preference, then we can't jail pedophiles, punishing them for something you would say they have no control over.

I do believe homosexuality is a sin, but that is just one sin among a list of many others. Laziness is a sin. We've all been guilty of that. Why should we shun people for a particular sin? Isn't that hypocrisy?


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  #258  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by enlightenment
Did you grow up in an orphanage?

Doubt it somehow......
I visited one when I was in Lebanon. It wasn't anywhere near as nice as the ones in North America, but I know I would rather stay in that orphanage than be raised by false doctrine. I just think we should be responsible towards the values we pass on to the next generation, and I think gay marriage adoption would be a step in the wrong direction.


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  #259  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:07 PM
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enlightenment enlightenment is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
See, you fail to understand something. You and I need to spend some time talking about Jesus, and talking about the Bible, so you understand how it is that I am against homosexuality and yet have homosexual friends and care about them. Jesus loved tax collectors and prostitutes. He didn't approve of what they did, but he loved them and died for them so they could still go to heaven.

I disagree with you, that sexual orientation is like race. God determines your race, not your sexual preference. If God determines your sexual preference, then we can't jail pedophiles, punishing them for something you would say they have no control over.

I do believe homosexuality is a sin, but that is just one sin among a list of many others. Laziness is a sin. We've all been guilty of that. Why should we shun people for a particular sin? Isn't that hypocrisy?
Straight question (pardon the pun).

Dawud says that AIDS is the wrath of god, do you agree or disagree with that stance?

And one statement.

I struggle to see how you keep your gay pals, when you clearly see them in this manner.

If I were black, I doubt I would want (or get!), many KKK members as pals!

As for the stuff about the WWF/WWE......

Ronald..?

Have a word, mate!

:D :D :D
__________________
"Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
new technologies.
There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.


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  #260  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
I visited one when I was in Lebanon. .
So in other words, no, you were not raised in one.

Thanks, that is what I needed to know.
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"Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
new technologies.
There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.


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  #261  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:21 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by enlightenment
Straight question (pardon the pun).

Dawud says that AIDS is the wrath of god, do you agree or disagree with that stance?

And one statement.

I struggle to see how you keep your gay pals, when you clearly see them in this manner.

If I were black, I doubt I would want (or get!), many KKK members as pals!

As for the stuff about the WWF/WWE......

Ronald..?

Have a word, mate!

:D :D :D

Well, to be fair, I believe ALL disease is part of God's punishment for mankind. And I say that having lost my sister who was only 3 years old.

I don't view AIDS as the "gay disease". You can still get it by sharing a needle, and there are plenty of STDs that straight people get. So no, I don't think God sent AIDS to punish gay people. I think that's a stretch.

I also think that the origin of the AIDS virus may possibly be man-made (who knows, conspiracy theories may be true) or man-incurred. There's the theory that someone had sex with a monkey. Or maybe they just ate a monkey or some animal that had some blood in it. So I don't agree with Dawud as to what the deal is with AIDS. I just know that it exists and its deadly.

I also think you struggle to understand how I can have gay friends because you may lack understanding about Jesus Christ.


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  #262  
Old 02-08-2007, 11:24 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connecticut Victim
Hi Ronald,

So tell me... if you're not being closed minded here, what do you base your opinion on? You admit that you have never discussed gay adoption with any of those who are directly involved - so what leads you to the conclusion that allowing gays to adopt a child is wrong? - Not just African children, but ANY child that needs a good home?

So far, you are judging this situation based on nothing more than your own views - which are, by all means, biased against circumstances that you have no knowledge of. That's prejudice, discrimination, and yes - it makes you a bigot.

Maybe you're okay with that.. you're certainly not alone. There's plenty of you out there who, for some reason, think this is your business. :rolleyes:



Well then... if you think they are "normal" "responsible members of society", then I will ask you again:

Why are you against them adopting a child?



It's good to know that you have something concrete to base your opinion on with regards to this person. I don't personally know anyone who has gone through a sex change operation - so you have more first hand knowledge of this than I do.

And I will also say this... you could very well be right. I have seen documentaries on this subject where the surgeries have turned out to be a huge regret for the one who had it done. Hopefully this is not case for the person you know.



You're confused here. You shutting the door on this topic was YOUR statement, Ronald - not mine.

And yes... when you want to use lame examples of people marrying horses to back up your argument against gays - then you are absolutely being ridiculous.



Again, you are confused here. I have never made a comment towards gays and lesbians that excludes them from the human race.

You're the one in this discussion who thinks gays should stay in San Francisco, and live in their own state.

And yes - they are a community of people - just like the religious community, black community, white community, Jewish community, Asian community, etc. etc.. "community" in this sense includes those of likeness - they are ALL members of the human race.

And as far as this involving the whole world? We are very anal in this country with regards to the issue of gays in comparison to other countries. Actually, we are very anal in this country about a NUMBER of things.



If you have gay friends, why haven't you asked any of them this question about having kids? Even if they are not in a relationship, or even interested in adoption, I'm sure they would have an opinion they would share with you. You seem to be in a position of finding answers if you would just take the intiative to ask. Why aren't you asking?



First of all... that's great GAL - not guy.

Please explain the consequences you say exist.. ?

Because for the life of me, I see no downside to a child who has no permanent home being adopted by a loving, caring couple.



If you want to get the point of this statement, you're gonna have to explain what you're talking about... implications of what proposals?



Keep talking, Ronald.

Because the more you say, the more you prove my point that you're just talking out of your a$$.

You have made it obvious here that the well being of children is not where your interest is with this issue. What matters most to you is that gays don't get the kids that YOU think they shouldn't have.

You're pathetic.

And you obviously know nothing about alcohol abuse either.



On issues that affect your personal life - absolutely. But gays, gay marriage, and gay adoption are not on that list.

I'm sure you do things in your personal life that others don't approve of - but as long as it doesn't affect them personally, what you do is not their business. It's the same with gay people.



This is not going to happen - you now it and I know it. You're never going to see things any differently.

The only hope you have is to find yourself in the middle of this situation when it involves someone that you care deeply about. And I don't mean in homosexual way. Someone like a family member, let's say a brother or sister, whom you love that comes out one day and announces they are gay...

I think you would see it differently - because THEN - this person that you love is the one being unjustly mistreated by society, and NOW - it has become personal.

Without that, I dont see you changing your views on any of this.
I was writing this lengthy response, but DAMNIT, I somehow lost it in the middle of writing it. I'm short on time. Is it possible for you to shorten this post down into a few questions you can ask? If not, I'll get back to this later.


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  #263  
Old 02-09-2007, 12:13 AM
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enlightenment enlightenment is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
Well, to be fair, I believe ALL disease is part of God's punishment for mankind. And I say that having lost my sister who was only 3 years old..
Really, that is not a healthy outlook mate, and RIP to your sister, who I am sure did nothing wrong in her life.

:(
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"Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
new technologies.
There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.


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  #264  
Old 02-09-2007, 12:36 AM
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Connecticut Victim Connecticut Victim is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
I'll give you an example of what I was talking about. They're married only on paper. They never have... err... relations. There was a time when their marriage was so difficult, they would throw objects at each other from across the room, and they wanted a divorce.

But they stayed together as a nuclear family for their kids, just at least until they graduate from high school. They saw what two divorced parents did to other people's kids, and they decided not to go down that road. They wanted to raise their kids right.
You think raising kids in a hostile environment is Healthy for the child?


Quote:
See, I'll admit that gay parents should be allowed to adopt kids that are starving in third world countries. If any religious nut has the balls to complain, then they're basically saying the kid should die. I think before that wall goes up, people have to take accountability for the cruel state of the world.

But if the orphanage system in North America is okay, then why would you put a kid in a situation where he or she is exposed to sexual immorality when you don't have to? I'd rather grow up in an orphanage than be brought up by two gay parents. I think it's incredibly unfair how a lot of kids grow up in a non-Christian setting.

If you're a non-Christian, then what I'm saying is probably going to sound crazy, prejudiced, bigoted, and so on. And that's okay for you to say and think that. If you can't answer the question: "How is Jesus relevant and necessary to everyone?", then I have no cause to be upset at any put down you have for me.

I think also from a non-Christian point of view, a purely what is best for society point of view, I think some restraint ought to be put on sexuality. I think there's such a thing as going too far. Take the WWF, now the WWE. I used to watched that as a kid. I stopped when Golddust came on the scene. It wasn't because he was gay, but because he would lick his opponents during the match and rub up on them. The all these silicon breasted bimbos got on the scene, and it got more and more vulgar.
Do you read what you type before you post it, Ronald?


Quote:
You look at this gay adoption issue as a humanitarian thing, and I feel sorry that you've fallen for the spin.
"A humanitarian thing" is donating 30 cents a day to feed a starving child in a third world country. That's not the case with gay adoption.


Quote:
As for whether homosexuality is wrong or not, yes, I think it is. But to me, so is owning a Mercedes in a world where children starve to death. Now, I have a gay friend and friends who Mercedes. I'm not REPULSED by them. I'm not homophobic. I don't point my finger at them and say they're evil or disgusting. We're still buds. But what they do is wrong, and I know there are sins that I do that are wrong. My point here is I won't accept the label "homophobe" when I have gay friends. Same with "anti-Semite" when I have Jewish friends, and ironically happen to be a semite myself. But in a debate, I'm not going to call what is wrong right. I just won't.
Tell me something - and don't lie - Have you told this gay friend "buddy" of yours that you think what he does is wrong?

Because I'll tell ya something - with friends like you - he doesn't need any enemies... :rolleyes:


Not that I didn't expect it, but I was hoping you would have another explanation for your opinions that didn't include religion as the base. That sums it all up and leaves no where for this discussion to go, because I am not interested in getting into a religious debate with you, Ronald - there's no point in it.

I was raised to practice my religion within my own life, and not pass judgement on others based on my personal beliefs. I was taught to be tolerant of all people, regardless of our differences, and to know that everyone would have to answer to God for what they do when their time comes. I was encouraged to understand that it is God's responsibility, and His only, to determine the punishment for those who sin. In other words - my parents taught me that is necessary to disagree with things that I oppose, but at the same time, I should mind my own business when an individual's circumstances have no direct affect on my personal life - God will handle it all when the time comes.

This has worked out quite well for me over the years, and has allowed me to see things with an open mind. If you think that's wrong, then so be it - I don't really care what you think one way or the other. Because unlike you, I am always willing to be held fully accountable for my words - instead of taking the easy way out and using my religion as a shield to hide behind in order to mistreat, judge and discriminate against others like you do. :rolleyes:



Last edited by Connecticut Victim : 02-09-2007 at 01:08 AM.
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  #265  
Old 02-09-2007, 12:46 AM
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HotParadox HotParadox is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by enlightenment
Really, that is not a healthy outlook mate, and RIP to your sister, who I am sure did nothing wrong in her life.

:(
Agree 100%.

Steve, I'm back; meet me at the Why God Won't Heal... thread, if you're able. :)


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  #266  
Old 02-09-2007, 12:54 AM
TheWorker
 
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connecticut Victim

I just wish that someone would admit to the fact that their reasons are based on nothing other than their own personal views, and that those views are, by all definition of the law, discrimination.

Maybe you can explain your opinion in a way that will make sense to me?.. because I just don't get why the kids should have to remain without a permanent, loving and caring home just because the ones who want to adopt him/her are gay - that simply does not seem to be in the best interest of the child to me... :(
what else would our opinions be based on, other peoples views??? i dont know what the laws are on gay people adopting kids, i guess its not illegal so it really doesnt matter.

this thread asked a question, i posted my answer. the reasoning is the same for why i dont think gays should marry either, its just not right in my view.

you want more than that?? i cant give you any more, just a simple answer is all. i dont think i want to live in a society where a bunch of gay people are starting families, introducing gay books into our classrooms for kids aged 5 years old, complaining that there arent enough gays in tv shows, commericals, and all the other PC stuff that eventually comes about.


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  #267  
Old 02-09-2007, 01:15 AM
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enlightenment enlightenment is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Hp, and to all Christians of a similar nature, ie, Sojustask...

Is it not about time you somehow reclaimed your religion from those who could and do it more damage than anyone else could..?

One thing I like about HP's post on religion, is that they are free of this hate, hate, hate, preached by people like Ronald here.

Hp keeps it simple, and she is right, even if she was wrong, if she has harmed or judged no one, then she has been a good person anyway, and that, in the end, is what matters.

But were I a kid looking to learn about Christianity or Islam for that matter, then the examples set by Ronald, and Dawud, they would do more to drive me away from ALL religion - FOREVER.

Let me put it another way.

The big sport here in the UK is football (soccer), right..?

Fans come along in their droves, and sing, and have a good time.

Alas, football once attracted it's fair share of numbnuts, who would dish out racial abuse to black players, or whatever else.

As a result, football clubs took responsibility, and issued banning orders to anyone who engaged in hate filled or sectarian chants.

The upshot is that football is much more free now of the racists, and the bigots, than it was 20 years ago.

Think of your religion as a football club.

Do you love your faith, HP..?

If you do, then somehow, you must appeal to your church to weed out those like Ronald here, for he is doing you, your religion, and the essence of Jesus a great disservice.

It is not atheists who will destroy religion, not even science.

Oh no...

It will be some of the so called faithful themselves, who will turn OFF the next generation to religion, and destroy it from within.
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"Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
new technologies.
There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.


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  #268  
Old 02-09-2007, 01:16 AM
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Re: Gay Adoption

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWorker
what else would our opinions be based on, other peoples views??? i dont know what the laws are on gay people adopting kids, i guess its not illegal so it really doesnt matter.

this thread asked a question, i posted my answer. the reasoning is the same for why i dont think gays should marry either, its just not right in my view.

you want more than that?? i cant give you any more, just a simple answer is all. i dont think i want to live in a society where a bunch of gay people are starting families, introducing gay books into our classrooms for kids aged 5 years old, complaining that there arent enough gays in tv shows, commericals, and all the other PC stuff that eventually comes about.

And here is another example....(above)
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"Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
new technologies.
There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.




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  #269  
Old 02-09-2007, 01:23 AM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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Re: Gay Adoption

Sorry, what I meant is that virulent homophobes tend to be repressing homosexual feelings. Anybody secure and honest to themselves about their sexuality tends not to care about what consenting adults do behind closed doors. Ever notice that?


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  #270  
Old 02-09-2007, 01:31 AM
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Re: Gay Adoption

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Originally Posted by ianmatthews
Sorry, what I meant is that virulent homophobes tend to be repressing homosexual feelings. Anybody secure and honest to themselves about their sexuality tends not to care about what consenting adults do behind closed doors. Ever notice that?
Oh yes, absolutely.

The more one is at ease with (example) their hetrosexuality, the more they are accepting of homosexuals, imo, and in my experience.

Of course, not every example would be a 'repressed homosexual'.

But I bet ya this much.

If I could take out a wand, and all the religions of the world vanished tommorow, I am 100% sure that people like the Worker, Dawud, and Ronald, they would all feel the need to allign themselves to some other group, and fill it with hate, hate, hate.

Agree..?
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it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.



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