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  #1  
Old 12-18-2006, 07:48 AM
Emerantia Emerantia is offline
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TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

HOW IS THE TRINITY EXPLAINED?

Do you believe in the Trinity? Most people in Christendom do. After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries.

In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it. but there is, and lately even some of its devout supporters have added fuel to the controversy and opened up a whole new debate in this 21st Century about the Trinitarian Dogma and its validity.

Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing interest? Because Jesus himself said: "Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy. Therefore, why not examine it for yourself?-John 17:3, Catholic Jerusalem Bible (JB).

Majority consensus may not always be right, right?


The coming topic in this Blog will be of the most important essence in regards to this Article - TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM?

Next: What Does The Bible Say About God and Jesus? Watch out for Chapter 11, Post number 11.




Seeking Spiritual Truths From the Bible and HistoryHOW IS THE TRINITY EXPLAINED?
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"Hunger ye not after the unattainable, lest the hidden beauty and mysterious wonders of the 'real' life's simplicities that lay already within your grasp, should also elude you in your fruitless endeavors!'
Extract from Quotable Sentiments by Emerantia Parnall-Gilbert Copyright C2005 All Rights Reserved



Last edited by Emerantia : 12-18-2006 at 08:02 AM. Reason: afterthoughts
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2006, 09:43 AM
wazzaa wazzaa is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

Quote:
Do you believe in the Trinity
NO

Quote:
After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries.
Yes... but are u saying the longer soemthing is incorrect the more correct it becomes?

Quote:
In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it.
Screw god i love santa



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  #3  
Old 12-18-2006, 10:40 AM
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yossarian yossarian is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

Quote:
In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it. but there is, and lately even some of its devout supporters have added fuel to the controversy and opened up a whole new debate in this 21st Century about the Trinitarian Dogma and its validity.
There are no "new" debates. Only old ones that are periodically rehashed. This one is no different.

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  #4  
Old 12-18-2006, 08:06 PM
Born2Serve
 
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

read 1John 5:7 KJV "Holy Trinity of God"

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  #5  
Old 12-18-2006, 09:11 PM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by Born2Serve
read 1John 5:7 KJV "Holy Trinity of God"
It is necessary that you say "KJV" here because it is a text that was added to the Textus Receptus, the Greek text from which the KJV New Testament was translated. As it was added, it is not authentic, and thus show no Trinity.

-Dave

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  #6  
Old 12-19-2006, 03:01 PM
Emerantia Emerantia is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by dave-st
It is necessary that you say "KJV" here because it is a text that was added to the Textus Receptus, the Greek text from which the KJV New Testament was translated. As it was added, it is not authentic, and thus show no Trinity.

-Dave

Hi Dave!

Please tell me that you will stay around for a long time to come?
:) You are well-read and we need someone like you. I do my best to try and get some of the readers (that verbalize these curious comments LOL) to take a look at my blog and hopefully will find some 'light' in there? You are almost (whether you realize it or not) some sort of 'guardian angel'. I know, I know that doesn't mean you accept my beliefs either, nevertheless I find your presence very comforting and I love your prompt answers. I would not ever have even thought about given an answer like that. All I can do is work with what I've learned over the years as a JW, and as a ex-Catholic have objectively been able to make my comparisons over time. To me it is all as clear and light as day that the Trinity does not exist. Wait till I get my blog completed on 'The Soul' topic. I wonder if I'll get well and truly clobbered by everyone. No doubt! But, the clergy Fathers have certainly done their job well by means of misleading indoctrinization.
__________________
"Hunger ye not after the unattainable, lest the hidden beauty and mysterious wonders of the 'real' life's simplicities that lay already within your grasp, should also elude you in your fruitless endeavors!'
Extract from Quotable Sentiments by Emerantia Parnall-Gilbert Copyright C2005 All Rights Reserved

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  #7  
Old 12-19-2006, 03:17 PM
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lexx lexx is online now
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

speakin of santa!?hehe!i think the tim allen series of santa movies is GREAT!!anyone who denies the love/magic is just not a christian at heart!?hehe!!as to the trinity i have this to say about that!?GROUND ZERO!?hehe!!as real as it gets!?read the marble monument!?and....look to the jewish first text and the many ancient theorys of the cosmos!?the 1 makes 3 admits 6 and then follows by mechanical fallout/decree the material worlds!?hehe!!....just askin....

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  #8  
Old 12-20-2006, 01:11 AM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerantia
Hi Dave!

Please tell me that you will stay around for a long time to come?
:) You are well-read and we need someone like you. I do my best to try and get some of the readers (that verbalize these curious comments LOL) to take a look at my blog and hopefully will find some 'light' in there? You are almost (whether you realize it or not) some sort of 'guardian angel'. I know, I know that doesn't mean you accept my beliefs either, nevertheless I find your presence very comforting and I love your prompt answers. I would not ever have even thought about given an answer like that. All I can do is work with what I've learned over the years as a JW, and as a ex-Catholic have objectively been able to make my comparisons over time. To me it is all as clear and light as day that the Trinity does not exist. Wait till I get my blog completed on 'The Soul' topic. I wonder if I'll get well and truly clobbered by everyone. No doubt! But, the clergy Fathers have certainly done their job well by means of misleading indoctrinization.

Jehovah willing, I will be around for as long as I can be of use. I certainly am nothing close to a guardian angel, but I do try my best, with his help, to defend what is true and lead others to God and Christ.

There is a lot to be said on the soul. The articles we have at http://www.scripturaltruths.com/soul might be of aid to you. Something I've noticed, which is there pointed out, is that many texts that people turn to in order to argue about the soul actually never even mention it! Of course some do, and in those cases context usually provides the necessary clarifications.

-Dave

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  #9  
Old 12-20-2006, 06:13 AM
EveryKnee EveryKnee is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerantia
HOW IS THE TRINITY EXPLAINED?

Do you believe in the Trinity? Most people in Christendom do. After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries.

In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it. but there is, and lately even some of its devout supporters have added fuel to the controversy and opened up a whole new debate in this 21st Century about the Trinitarian Dogma and its validity.

Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing interest? Because Jesus himself said: "Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy. Therefore, why not examine it for yourself?-John 17:3, Catholic Jerusalem Bible (JB).

Majority consensus may not always be right, right?


The coming topic in this Blog will be of the most important essence in regards to this Article - TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM?

Next: What Does The Bible Say About God and Jesus? Watch out for Chapter 11, Post number 11.




Seeking Spiritual Truths From the Bible and HistoryHOW IS THE TRINITY EXPLAINED?
You have a misunderstanding, right off the bat.

If the Godhead, the Tri-unity of three persons as one God....is one God....then how is that Godhead NOT a monotheistic God?

God is a monotheistic God - there is one God, not three Gods.

But let me ask you this;
what think ye of Isaiah 44:6? Two Jehovah's?

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  #10  
Old 12-20-2006, 06:40 AM
ComplexKid ComplexKid is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

We went through that one in Hebrew already, EK.

And by the way, you do know how to count in Hebrew, yes? What's the word for 'one'?

One more time--when 'echad' is used adjectivally in Hebrew, it means one and one alone, not a composite unity that makes up a 'one of something'.

I know I'm not a Christian, but I really can't see the good coming over all this hairsplitting. Some of you see Jesus as part of the G-dhead, some see him as G-d's 'helper' for lack of a better term, whatever works for you, no?

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  #11  
Old 12-20-2006, 08:02 AM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by EveryKnee
You have a misunderstanding, right off the bat.

If the Godhead, the Tri-unity of three persons as one God....is one God....then how is that Godhead NOT a monotheistic God?

God is a monotheistic God - there is one God, not three Gods.

But let me ask you this;
what think ye of Isaiah 44:6? Two Jehovah's?
Isaiah 44:6 is one Jehovah. This "his" is in reference to Israel, which is the nearest antecedent to the pronoun. Compare Isaiah 43:1.

-Dave

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  #12  
Old 12-20-2006, 08:55 AM
EveryKnee EveryKnee is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by ComplexKid
We went through that one in Hebrew already, EK.

And by the way, you do know how to count in Hebrew, yes? What's the word for 'one'?

One more time--when 'echad' is used adjectivally in Hebrew, it means one and one alone, not a composite unity that makes up a 'one of something'.

I know I'm not a Christian, but I really can't see the good coming over all this hairsplitting. Some of you see Jesus as part of the G-dhead, some see him as G-d's 'helper' for lack of a better term, whatever works for you, no?
So Adam and Eve are as one flesh in the singular, as in they really are the same person, not two individuals rendered as one in the plural?

And the parts of the Tabernacle - they were not individual pieces?

Or is this a different Hebrew word than is used in Deut 6?

Agreed that some see Jesus as a member of the Godhead. Those who say they represent God the Father as a "Sent One" are also correct.

That Jesus is Jehovah (or He is not) is of incredible importance. The priority is of much greater weight than say, why He chose to dip His food.

If Jesus was only a man, then how was it that all and every sin ever committed was placed on His body in such a way that God the Father had appeased His wrath?
But that's the point; either that is true or it is not.

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:03 AM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by EveryKnee
So Adam and Eve are as one flesh in the singular, as in they really are the same person, not two individuals rendered as one in the plural?

And the parts of the Tabernacle - they were not individual pieces?

Or is this a different Hebrew word than is used in Deut 6?

Agreed that some see Jesus as a member of the Godhead. Those who say they represent God the Father as a "Sent One" are also correct.

That Jesus is Jehovah (or He is not) is of incredible importance. The priority is of much greater weight than say, why He chose to dip His food.

If Jesus was only a man, then how was it that all and every sin ever committed was placed on His body in such a way that God the Father had appeased His wrath?
But that's the point; either that is true or it is not.
You seem to be confused, but it is really very simple. Echad = one. It is not a special word, but it is the word for the numeral. They are one flesh and it is compound because of the plural. The same principle applies to the English word. But when no plural is in view, one is one.

As for how Jesus took on sin for us... it is because he was without sin. If he had sinned his sacrifice would have been worthless. Jesus is called "the last Adam," because he was a perfect man as Adam was before the fall. He took Adam's place, so as we all inherited sin from Adam, we all inherit life from Jesus.


-Dave

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  #14  
Old 12-20-2006, 09:17 AM
EveryKnee EveryKnee is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by dave-st
Isaiah 44:6 is one Jehovah. This "his" is in reference to Israel, which is the nearest antecedent to the pronoun. Compare Isaiah 43:1.

-Dave
Isaiah 43:1
But now thus says Jehovah who formed you, O Jacob;
and who made you, O Israel;
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I called you by
your name; you are Mine."

I think we agree that the "O Jacob" and the "O Israel" had their origins in Jehovah. So how does this compare to Isaiah 44:6?


Israel is referred to as a woman in the Bible, and married to God (Isa 62:5, Jer, 3:8, Jer. 3:14, Hos. 1, Mal. 2:11, book of Revelation).

And I don't see at all that the "his" as Israel in the text.

So says Jehovah (who is the King of Israel), and His Redeemer (who is the Lord of hosts)...

Nah, two persons.


How about Isaiah 48? The person speaking from verses 12 to 22 is Jehovah.
But it says in verse 16b and 17:

...From its being, I was there;
and now the Lord Jehovah and His Spirit has sent Me..."


Sounds like three people to me.

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:22 AM
EveryKnee EveryKnee is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by dave-st
You seem to be confused, but it is really very simple. Echad = one. It is not a special word, but it is the word for the numeral. They are one flesh and it is compound because of the plural. The same principle applies to the English word. But when no plural is in view, one is one.

As for how Jesus took on sin for us... it is because he was without sin. If he had sinned his sacrifice would have been worthless. Jesus is called "the last Adam," because he was a perfect man as Adam was before the fall. He took Adam's place, so as we all inherited sin from Adam, we all inherit life from Jesus.


-Dave
No, you see there are two different words for the word "one" in Hebrew, 1) that denotes singular by itself and 2) a plurality of parts that are rendered as "one."
I'm not saying that any of these two words are "special" but there are two different Hebrew words that is translated "one" in our english Bibles. CK had already commented that on another thread - he acknowledged that there are two different Hebrew words.[

I'm not confused at all but I'm surprised that you don't see it with the examples given.

Note, though, I was talking to CK; Christ had to be more than a man to take on the sins of the whole world. Can a man lay down his life and take it up again? Christ was more than a man.

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:26 AM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryKnee
Isaiah 43:1
But now thus says Jehovah who formed you, O Jacob;
and who made you, O Israel;
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I called you by
your name; you are Mine."

I think we agree that the "O Jacob" and the "O Israel" had their origins in Jehovah. So how does this compare to Isaiah 44:6?


Israel is referred to as a woman in the Bible, and married to God (Isa 62:5, Jer, 3:8, Jer. 3:14, Hos. 1, Mal. 2:11, book of Revelation).

And I don't see at all that the "his" as Israel in the text.

So says Jehovah (who is the King of Israel), and His Redeemer (who is the Lord of hosts)...

Nah, two persons.


How about Isaiah 48? The person speaking from verses 12 to 22 is Jehovah.
But it says in verse 16b and 17:

...From its being, I was there;
and now the Lord Jehovah and His Spirit has sent Me..."


Sounds like three people to me.

Actually Israel is referred to as a him repeatedly in Scripture. (cf. Jer. 2:14) You might want to check your own Trinitarian Bible commentators, as they regularly disagree with you.

For example, Gill writes: "and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; who redeemed Israel out of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and would again redeem them from the Babylonish captivity"

Barnes and Jamieson, Fauscett and Brown both cross reference this to Isaiah 43:1.

The NIV and Holman Bible both translate this in a way that makes perfectly clear, showing Israel to be the one being redeemed, saying: "Israel's King and Redeemer." The Interpreter's Commentary says the same.

For Isaiah 48, I'd again suggest you do some digging. First, "his Spirit" is not a statement of a person. Nobody speaks of a person's spirit as a person in itself. Second, the one being sent is the prophet. Barnes states: "There is evidently a change in the speaker here. In the former part of the verse, it is God who is the speaker. But here it is he who is sent to bear the message... The scope of the passage demands, as it seems to me, that it should be referred to the prophet himself."

-Dave

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:31 AM
dave-st dave-st is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

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Originally Posted by EveryKnee
No, you see there are two different words for the word "one" in Hebrew, 1) that denotes singular by itself and 2) a plurality of parts that are rendered as "one."
I'm not saying that any of these two words are "special" but there are two different Hebrew words that is translated "one" in our english Bibles. CK had already commented that on another thread - he acknowledged that there are two different Hebrew words.[

I'm not confused at all but I'm surprised that you don't see it with the examples given.

Note, though, I was talking to CK; Christ had to be more than a man to take on the sins of the whole world. Can a man lay down his life and take it up again? Christ was more than a man.
There are not two different words for the numeral one. There is one word that equals = one = 1. It is ECHAD. Echad does not denote a plurality of parts that are one. It is just good ol' one. You're repeating a common myth.

If you were counting in Hebrew, this is how you'd do it:

1=Echad, 2=Shnaim, 3=Shlosha, 4=Arba'a, 5=Khamisha, 6=Shisha, 7=Shiva, 8=Shmona, 9=Tish'a, 10=Asara, 11=Echad ve asar, 12=Shnem ve asar, 13=Shlosha ve asar, 14=Arba'a ve asar, 15=Khamisha ve asar, 16=Shisha ve asar, 17=Shiva ve asar...

Here are some prime examples where it means just plain one.

Gen. 10:25. And unto Eber were born two sons. The name of the one was Peleg. For in his days was the earth divided. And his brother's name was Joktan.

Gen. 19:9. And they said, Stand back. And they said, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge. Now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and drew near to break the door.

Gen. 27:45. Until thy brother's anger turn away from thee, and he forget that which thou hast done to him. Then I will send, and fetch thee from thence. Why should I be bereaved of you both in one day?

Gen. 41:5. And he slept and dreamed a second time: and, behold, seven ears of grain came up upon one stalk, rank and good."

Exodus 8:31. And Jehovah did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one.

Ezekiel 33:24. Son of man, they that inhabit those waste places in the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance.

Per your argument, how would Abraham be one as a plural?

-Dave

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Old 12-20-2006, 09:36 AM
ComplexKid ComplexKid is offline
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Re: TRINITY OR MONOTHEISM - Should You Believe It?

I'm not really up to going through pages and pages of grammar in Hebrew with you tonight, so please trust me that I'm not lying. Jews really have no agenda to try to misrepresent our sacred texts.

The point, I think, is what is the most meaningful way for you to relate to the sacred?
All of it is myth (in the theological sense), all of it is syncretic, based on even older traditions than Christianity or Judaism, unless you agree with Justin Martyr that demons went back in time and re-arranged the earlier religions that bear such striking resemblances to fool everyone. If that's the case, I can't help you.

That isn't a slam. It's just a statement that if you're trying to define G-d, there's no way you can do it, or I can do it. The only way that prophets could even come close was by telling stories--as you know, in Hebrew prophet is probably best translated as 'one who speaks for G-d', and aside from the Moses mythos, all the other prophets saw G-d in dreams (symbolically, in other words, because that's as close as we can get).

G-d is way bigger than you or I or anyone else, and any human attempts to describe the Eternal are by necessity going to come up short. We just can't get that far. It doesn't mean that we can't connect with the sacred, but we're limited--G-d isn't. Finite minds can go only so far in working out the Eternal.

E.g., G-d doesn't really have arms, but 'G-d's arm' is a Hebrew idiom for strength, etc. We anthropomorphise. And if seeing Jesus as either part of a trinity, or as a helper of G-d connects you to the sacred, it's meaningful to you. For some of us, it's impossible to think of G-d as incarnate at all.

It's the connection to the sacred that's important. Not whether somebody else's details match your details. Or at least I find it impossible to conceive of a G-d who's going to quiz you on the fiddly bits of doctrine--G-d isn't Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or anything else.

So if your belief in a triune G-dhead makes you a better person, terrific. And if the other guy doesn't believe in the trinity, and it makes him a better person--also terrific. So long as it's connecting you to the sacred and you're not hurting people to do it, it's pretty minor stuff to quibble over.


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